Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Bob_Huntley on October 24, 2007, 11:39:42 AM
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Is there anyone on this board, besides me, that feels that the book was less than the Holy Grail that it has since become?
Bob
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As I said in that other thread, I read half of it -- and quit, never tempted to return.
Call me a heretic!
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Generally incoherent but maybe that was just me! ::)
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I was never tempted to take the book seriously. I've always thought the Shivas stuff was satirical. Unintentional perhaps, but a good satire on reading too much into golf.
It was a fun read. Until, that is, the metaphysics in the last half. I couldn't finish either.
Bob
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Yes! It didn't thrill me.
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As this thread is proving, my feeling is far more golfers dislike the book than like it. Or at least those who dislike it sure are not shy about making their feelings known!
The shivas irons society is a bunch of wackos.. and I think they'd admit that and relish the title. ;D
All this being said, I loved the book - enjoyed the read - even the second half. But I never thought of it as a life-changing quasi-religious tome, as some do... To me it was just a fun, and really weird, golf book. And keeping it on that level, yes I did enjoy it.
TH
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What Dan the Heretic Kelly said.
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I never read it but I did download an audiobook version of it to my iPod and listen to it while driving back and forth to one of the Dixie Cup events. To my recollection it started out intriguing but a little to cutesy for my taste, got a bit better for a while in the middle and then just devolved into claptrap toward the end.
At whatever point there was a section about going to dinner at someone's house one evening and sitting around afterwards comparing metaphysical whatsits...right at the beginning of that scene was my last hope of anything remotely enlightening. The book is a relic of the 70's and kind of like some of those old, washed-out movies from that period it must have seemed like there was more to it at the time than was really there. What a depressing decade.
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Goodness gracious, I am delighted to have some confirmation.
It reminds me in a way of Essalen itself in the old days, thoughts of nudity, sex and possibly a whiff of the noxious weed but in the end, nothing but aimless prattling.
Bob
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Both the book itself and the experience of reading it reminded me of the Carlos Castaneda books, for those of you who remember those. Initially intriguing, relatively entertaining, verging on utterly bogus, and ultimately a disappointment. In both cases I thought at the beginning that it was going to really go somewhere interesting. Little did I know that the most interesting part was already over, and it was all downhill from there.
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My point is being proven quite nicely.
;D
Will any who enjoyed the book step up? Or do I stand alone???
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I gave up on it fairly quickly, so when I discovered that Murhy was co-founder of http://www.esalen.org/ I realized why I was so unimpressed.
A woman I knew once gave me a copy of The Road Less Traveled because it had changed her life. It opens with "Life is difficult."
Okaaay...
I'm not the metaphysical type, I guess.
Ken
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I've been picking on this book for the entire 7 years I've been on here, sometimes even to the point of being a little unfair to it.
By far the worst thing to come from the book, to me anyway, is that it seems to have spawned the notion that you almost can't write a good golf novel without mystical elements (happily, there are exceptions that prove the rule).
I suppose it's not the book or author's fault that we live in a copycat world, but if I never see another golf book that substitutes mystical crap for the soul of golf, I will be a happy man.
:)
And I must also throw out my obligatory line to Huck: The gemme is about the walk! :) :)
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The key to appreciating that book is the heavy use of drugs (at least at some point in your life). If you're gonna bother to read that book sober, of course it won't appeal to you. Light up and enlighten up 8)
By the way, I thoroughly enjoyed the book. I even read it twice. I might even read it again.
I also liked Bagger Vance...though the movie was pretty lousy.
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Darn right it is, George. But it was confirmed to me from the source Michael Murphy himself that if shivas lived in 21st century America, he'd play and ride rather than not play at all, at some of the courses where it's sane to ride.
;D
In any case, picking on this book is all too easy, as shown in this thread.
I continue to stand alone.
Just remember though I'm with you in picking on those who want to make it a life-changing tome. To me it remains a fun read, and if one keeps it on that level, pretty harmless.
TH
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My point is being proven quite nicely.
;D
Will any who enjoyed the book step up? Or do I stand alone???
I will! I will! I enjoyed it. Harmless book that was a fun read for a golf nut. Not a life-changing, "Holy Grail" moment, but I've read a lot worse that I enjoyed also.
BTW, there's a little book called "Quantum Golf" that is kind of an instructional version of "Golf in the Kingdom". I liked it, too!
I am what I am...
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The book is a relic of the 70's and kind of like some of those old, washed-out movies from that period it must have seemed like there was more to it at the time than was really there. What a depressing decade.
Then again, there was disco.
Mike
Burn baby burn.
-The Tramps
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AGC:
Many thanks, brother. Standing alone is rarely fun.
;D ;D
TH
ps - I too read Quantum Golf and while it didn't change my life nor my game, it too was a fun read.....
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"The key to appreciating that book is the heavy use of drugs (at least at some point in your life)."
Is that right, Wayno?
I guess that means you read that book so many times you memorized it, huh?
;)
In my opinion, that book is just golf's version of that hippy-dippy flowerchild commune era of the 60s and 70s. The only good that weirdo culture did was to completely destroy every single thing any functioning pyschoanalyst ever learned or used.
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The key to appreciating that book is the heavy use of drugs (at least at some point in your life). If you're gonna bother to read that book sober, of course it won't appeal to you. Light up and enlighten up 8)
By the way, I thoroughly enjoyed the book. I even read it twice. I might even read it again.
I also liked Bagger Vance...though the movie was pretty lousy.
Wayne,
Is it possible to read any book when stoned? Just asking.
Bob
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The key to appreciating that book is the heavy use of drugs (at least at some point in your life). If you're gonna bother to read that book sober, of course it won't appeal to you. Light up and enlighten up 8)
I'm not sure even Tim Leary "turned on" for purposes of reading a book, and I would guess reading fell lower still on the priority list of his disciples. Definitely below spoon bending...
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AGC:
Many thanks, brother. Standing alone is rarely fun.
;D ;D
TH
ps - I too read Quantum Golf and while it didn't change my life nor my game, it too was a fun read.....
Tom,
I STILL say "super fluid" very quietly from time to time while hitting range balls, and often find that I'm not getting completely to my Q point when I'm hitting a lot of high blocks or, alternatively, duck hooks. ;D
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I can see the cover of the next edition:
"Mystical crap!" -- Geo. Pazin
"Well, sure -- but harmless!" -- Tom IV Huckaby
"Perfect for the Heavy Drug User!" -- Wayne Morrison
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Tom P,
Hard as it is to believe, I know you never altered your state of mind. However, if someone gives you the book, be prepared to smoke the thinking man's cigarette instead of that cancer stick you light up.
Heck, I should give you a copy of the book after secretly planting some ganja on a hidden acre of your farm. Then you'll be all set 8) ;D ;D
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Now now Dan, I would never agree that it's mystical crap.
Put me down for "fun yet harmless golf crap that shouldn't be taken as mystical."
And super fluid, brother AGC. Super fluid. That thought is a good one to come back to.
;D
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AGC:
Tom,
I STILL say "super fluid" very quietly from time to time while hitting range balls, and often find that I'm not getting completely to my Q point when I'm hitting a lot of high blocks or, alternatively, duck hooks. ;D
AGC,
Just hum the Blue Danube Waltz and you can dispense with Shivas altogether.
Bob
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"Wayne,
Is it possible to read any book when stoned? Just asking."
Bob:
You're kidding, right?
There are times when Wayno can read a book when stoned without the book.
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Bob,
I liked the book but never considered it the Holy Grail (or the Golfers' Bible), just a pleasant read that allowed me at the time (1970s) to think that Scotland was a place I'd really like to get to see someday.
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Now now Dan, I would never agree that it's mystical crap.
Put me down for "fun yet harmless golf crap that shouldn't be taken as mystical."
Sure, OK. Talk about your faint praise!
In my column, that's known as a "corn dog" -- an insult wrapped in a compliment.
Oh, and by the way: Standing alone is ALWAYS fun, if you think it's fun to stand alone. (How's that for mystical crap?)
No need to reply!
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I don't think it's fun to stand alone. But of course if I did, then it would be.
Mystical Tom
ps - I never meant to give the book much more than faint praise. I just also won't say it sucks.
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"Tom P,
Hard as it is to believe, I know you never altered your state of mind."
I don't believe in altering my state of mind, Wayno. I only believe in enhancing my state of mind. Frankly, I can do that with something as simple as a Maxwell "poof".
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"Golf in the Kingdom" is a complete waste of words and time. It is possibly worse than "the Good Doctor Returns." "The legend of Bagger Vance" is right there with them.
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The key to appreciating that book is the heavy use of drugs (at least at some point in your life). If you're gonna bother to read that book sober, of course it won't appeal to you. Light up and enlighten up 8)
By the way, I thoroughly enjoyed the book. I even read it twice. I might even read it again.
I also liked Bagger Vance...though the movie was pretty lousy.
I saw "Bagger Vance" the movie. I can't remember if I was stoned or not. It didn't matter; I disliked it intensely. I've stayed away from "Golf In The Kingdom" for the same reason. I'm not a fan of the mystical or intangible, although I support the "Be the ball, Danny." school of thought.
I get sufficient enjoyment digging on the tangible.
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I'm not sure even Tim Leary "turned on" for purposes of reading a book, and I would guess reading fell lower still on the priority list of his disciples. Definitely below spoon bending...
There's a big difference between reading a book stoned and reading one while on LSD.
Look, the first half of the book is a hoot. Liked it. Looked forward to more of the same in the second half, and left disappointed. No crime there.
Wayne - you should probably read "A Separate Reality." Not much golf in there, though. 8)
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"Golf in the Kingdom" is a complete waste of words and time. It is possibly worse than "the Good Doctor Returns." "The legend of Bagger Vance" is right there with them.
LOL
It shouldn't surprise you to read I enjoyed all three of those. But then again, I do treat golf as whimiscal, if not always mystical.
;D
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The key to appreciating that book is the heavy use of drugs (at least at some point in your life). If you're gonna bother to read that book sober, of course it won't appeal to you. Light up and enlighten up 8)
I'm not sure even Tim Leary "turned on" for purposes of reading a book, and I would guess reading fell lower still on the priority list of his disciples. Definitely below spoon bending...
That's Timothy Leary with an "r" to make sure there is no mixup here.
I just started the book and was wondering if the course in the book was a real course or if anyone recognized the course from the descriptions. The intro said it might be recognized by anyone who has played there.
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There's a big difference between reading a book stoned and reading one while on LSD.
We sure do seem to have a lot of experts here.
(Multiple emoticons omitted.)
I thought "A Separate Reality" was ALL about golf!
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"Golf in the Kingdom" is a complete waste of words and time. It is possibly worse than "the Good Doctor Returns." "The legend of Bagger Vance" is right there with them.
LOL
It shouldn't surprise you to read I enjoyed all three of those. But then again, I do treat golf as whimiscal, if not always mystical.
;D
Have you sent in your dues to the Shivas Irons Society this year?
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"I get sufficient enjoyment digging on the tangible."
But John, how do you really know it's tangible? Can you actually prove it's tangible? How do you even really know you're digging? Can you actually prove you're digging?
What if Wayno was there with you and he was stoned and he said he didn't think you were digging? Or what if he didn't think you were digging because he believed there wasn't really any tangible there to dig on?
What if he said that the tangible and the digging, was, in fact, nothing but a fignewton of your imagination?!
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"Golf in the Kingdom" is a complete waste of words and time. It is possibly worse than "the Good Doctor Returns." "The legend of Bagger Vance" is right there with them.
LOL
It shouldn't surprise you to read I enjoyed all three of those. But then again, I do treat golf as whimiscal, if not always mystical.
;D
Have you sent in your dues to the Shivas Irons Society this year?
Read my post on page one... I called them wackos....
;D
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Bob, I'll admit to not gaining any deeper appreciation for having read the book. The only line that spoke to me was Shivas' toast at the bar.
However, if the book can enlighten golfers (or those who play golf) to some of the mysteries, I see no reason to belittle them.
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"Golf in the Kingdom" is a complete waste of words and time. It is possibly worse than "the Good Doctor Returns." "The legend of Bagger Vance" is right there with them.
LOL
It shouldn't surprise you to read I enjoyed all three of those. But then again, I do treat golf as whimiscal, if not always mystical.
;D
Have you sent in your dues to the Shivas Irons Society this year?
Read my post on page one... I called them wackos....
;D
There's hope for you yet. I will submit a request that you be placed on the BBGE Mass Intentions list.
By the way. It is conceivable that Tom Paul was the ghost writer for all three works
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I can see the cover of the next edition:
"Mystical crap!" -- Geo. Pazin
"Well, sure -- but harmless!" -- Tom IV Huckaby
"Perfect for the Heavy Drug User!" -- Wayne Morrison
All right, then. To update our blurbs for the next paperback edition:
"Less than the Holy Grail that it has since become...in the end, nothing but aimless prattling." -- Bob Huntley
"I read half of it -- and quit, never tempted to return." -- Dan Kelly
"Generally incoherent but maybe that was just me!" -- Bill McBride
"A good satire on reading too much into golf." -- Bob Crosby
"A little to cutesy for my taste, got a bit better for a while in the middle and then just devolved into claptrap toward the end." -- Brent Hutto
"Mystical crap!" -- Geo. Pazin
"Fun yet harmless golf crap that shouldn't be taken as mystical."
!" -- Tom IV Huckaby
"Perfect for the Heavy Drug User!" -- Wayne Morrison
"A complete waste of words and time." -- John Cullum
And yet...the paperback version of "Golf in the Kingdom" is ranked #77,433 on Amazon, while a far better book, "Amen Corner" ;) has slipped from a high point of about #2,890 to its current position of #512,953. As far as I know, the words "claptrap" and "incoherent" have not been used to describe "Amen Corner," but that's publishing.
My view of "Golf in the Kingdom" is very similar to the majority view here, but I have to say it is an immensely better book than the sequel, "The Kingdom of Shivas Irons," published in 1998 and quite possibly the worst book I've ever read.
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And yet...the paperback version of "Golf in the Kingdom" is ranked #77,433 on Amazon, while a far better book, "Amen Corner" ;) has slipped from a high point of about #2,890 to its current position of #512,953. As far as I know, the words "claptrap" and "incoherent" have not been used to describe "Amen Corner," but that's publishing.
My view of "Golf in the Kingdom" is very similar to the majority view here, but I have to say it is an immensely better book than the sequel, "The Kingdom of Shivas Irons," published in 1998 and quite possibly the worst book I've ever read.
I volunteer.
If it'll help your sales in the next edition of "Amen Corner," just stick this on the cover: "Incoherent claptrap!" -- Dan Kelly™.
Where does "The Kingdom of Shivas Irons" ("Quite possibly the worst book I've ever read!" -- Rick Shefchik, author of "Amen Corner" ["Incoherent claptrap!" Dan Kelly™]) -- sit on the "best-seller" list?
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There's a big difference between reading a book stoned and reading one while on LSD.
We sure do seem to have a lot of experts here.
(Multiple emoticons omitted.)
I thought "A Separate Reality" was ALL about golf!
Just attempting to put my mis-spent youth to good use!
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As this thread is proving, my feeling is far more golfers dislike the book than like it. Or at least those who dislike it sure are not shy about making their feelings known!
The shivas irons society is a bunch of wackos.. and I think they'd admit that and relish the title. ;D
All this being said, I loved the book - enjoyed the read - even the second half. But I never thought of it as a life-changing quasi-religious tome, as some do... To me it was just a fun, and really weird, golf book. And keeping it on that level, yes I did enjoy it.
TH
I agree with TH here...mosty, purely for fun...and I never read it, just listened to the book on tape which made for a very enjoyable car ride. 8)
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And yet...the paperback version of "Golf in the Kingdom" is ranked #77,433 on Amazon, while a far better book, "Amen Corner" ;) has slipped from a high point of about #2,890 to its current position of #512,953. As far as I know, the words "claptrap" and "incoherent" have not been used to describe "Amen Corner," but that's publishing.
My view of "Golf in the Kingdom" is very similar to the majority view here, but I have to say it is an immensely better book than the sequel, "The Kingdom of Shivas Irons," published in 1998 and quite possibly the worst book I've ever read.
I volunteer.
If it'll help your sales in the next edition of "Amen Corner," just stick this on the cover: "Incoherent claptrap!" -- Dan Kelly™.
Where does "The Kingdom of Shivas Irons" ("Quite possibly the worst book I've ever read!" -- Rick Shefchik, author of "Amen Corner" ["Incoherent claptrap!" Dan Kelly™]) -- sit on the "best-seller" list?
400,462 :'(
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And yet...the paperback version of "Golf in the Kingdom" is ranked #77,433 on Amazon, while a far better book, "Amen Corner" ;) has slipped from a high point of about #2,890 to its current position of #512,953. As far as I know, the words "claptrap" and "incoherent" have not been used to describe "Amen Corner," but that's publishing.
My view of "Golf in the Kingdom" is very similar to the majority view here, but I have to say it is an immensely better book than the sequel, "The Kingdom of Shivas Irons," published in 1998 and quite possibly the worst book I've ever read.
I volunteer.
If it'll help your sales in the next edition of "Amen Corner," just stick this on the cover: "Incoherent claptrap!" -- Dan Kelly™.
Where does "The Kingdom of Shivas Irons" ("Quite possibly the worst book I've ever read!" -- Rick Shefchik, author of "Amen Corner" ["Incoherent claptrap!" Dan Kelly™]) -- sit on the "best-seller" list?
400,462 :'(
Rick --
I'm reminded of a New Yorker cartoon of three fish -- a huge one who's thinking "The world is perfectly just" as he eats a medium-sized one who's thinking "There is some justice in the world" as he eats a little one who's thinking "There is no justice in the world."
Dan
P.S. Here's that cartoon, in emoticon form:
;D :o :'(
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"claptrap" and "incoherent" have not been used to describe "Amen Corner," but that's publishing.
Rick,
Is it publishing or is it marketing, or is there a difference?
If your book is "the perfect airplane read for a golf trip," is it on any airport bookshelves? (It certainly should be...)
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Doug,
You can't talk about one without the other. I have a wonderful publisher, but they can't do much in the way of marketing -- nothing like the big houses. My publisher told me they can't get my book into airport bookstores, because it hasn't sold enough -- and it hasn't sold enough because, in part, it isn't in airport bookstores.
That's publishing.
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"claptrap" and "incoherent" have not been used to describe "Amen Corner," but that's publishing.
Rick,
Is it publishing or is it marketing, or is there a difference?
If your book is "the perfect airplane read for a golf trip," is it on any airport bookshelves? (It certainly should be...)
My guess is: No. And it won't be, because it wouldn't sell enough copies to justify its place in such prime retail cubic inches. (I should say: They're not confident that it would sell enough copies to justify its place in such prime retail cubic inches. Who's to say what might happen if it were, in fact, given those cubic inches?)
C'est la guerre.
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Put me down as a fan of Golf in the Kingdom. But then that probably proves Wayne Morrison's theory.
Cheers,
Dan King
I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they've always worked for me.
--Hunter S. Thompson
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There's a big difference between reading a book stoned and reading one while on LSD.
We sure do seem to have a lot of experts here.
(Multiple emoticons omitted.)
I thought "A Separate Reality" was ALL about golf!
Just asking -- not meant as anything but an observation -- but, Dan, if you are opposed to emoticons on the grounds that language should suffice, then why not use language instead of the long-winded equivalent of an emoticon, which is how I interpret "multiple emoticons omitted"?
Rick, the good thing about holding down the 400,462 spot is that you probably could leap 100,000 spots just if you buy on copy!
Mark
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Great.....now I bet you guys are going to tell me Castenedas's Don Juan the sorcerer wasn't a real person too ::).
Oh, and have a nice day. :(
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Bob
I not only admit to liking the book, I actually read the whole thing! I found it a few months after my first visit to the golfing shrines of Scotland in 1978, and the book resonated with my warm and fresh memories of that 3-week journey. To me it is as good a description of what golf in Scotland was like at the grassroots level before it became known in the wider golfing world. There really were Irons' and MacIvers and Listons in those days, in just about any club, from the hidden gems to the Open venues. In fact, I'm getting so misty-eyed remembering the feelings I had when I read it, I think I'll sit down and read it again in a few weeks, when I have the time.
The latter half is a bit abstruse, but you have to go with the flow, and need drugs only if you are lacking imagination and/or a true love for the game. There is some interesting stuff about the concept of the hole and the whiteness of the ball, and the mental aspect of the game and of life. Murphy influenced Tim Galwey who wrote the only golf instruction book I ever felt to be of value, and introduced me and many other readers to Arnold Haultain, whom we all know to be the thinking man's Max Behr.
As I continue to write and think now I'm getting so mellow that it doesn't even bother me that I am agreeing with Huckaby. Be the ball, brothers.
Rich
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Doug,
You can't talk about one without the other. I have a wonderful publisher, but they can't do much in the way of marketing -- nothing like the big houses. My publisher told me they can't get my book into airport bookstores, because it hasn't sold enough -- and it hasn't sold enough because, in part, it isn't in airport bookstores.
That's publishing.
Rick,
I think you should send a copy to Oprah (if you haven't already...).
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Rick - you're sure right about the sequel. Based on the comments so far, a likely blurb for the next edition is: "Mystical...Fun....The Holy Grail".
Bob Huntley - you have played golf with Dean Martin at Riviera AND remember Essalen in the 60s. In the words of J.J. Hunsecker from "Sweet Smell of Success": "I'm a schoolboy, Sidney, teach me, teach me".
Peter
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Maybe this thread title should be changed to:
"Can a book be great if most people don't like it."
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Just asking -- not meant as anything but an observation -- but, Dan, if you are opposed to emoticons on the grounds that language should suffice, then why not use language instead of the long-winded equivalent of an emoticon, which is how I interpret "multiple emoticons omitted"?
Mark --
If there were any way to have made my wisecrack about Kirk Gill's expertise in the effects of various illegal substances without risking someone's thinking that I intended some serious commentary thereby, I'd have dispensed not only with emoticons, but with my "long-winded equivalent." (How's that for long-winded! I could have just said ::) )
I oppose emoticons -- which is not to say they're never useful ... and occasionally necessary! :P
Dan
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However, if the book can enlighten golfers (or those who play golf) to some of the mysteries, I see no reason to belittle them.
There's no mystery in golf. Just like there's no crying in baseball.
Maybe there's intrigue, but definitely no mystery. I'm digging on the intrigue.
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The latter half is a bit abstruse, but you have to go with the flow, and need drugs only if you are lacking imagination and/or a true love for the game.
I guess I'm lacking imagination. But I already knew that. And I'm not good at going with the flow.
But the second half of your speculation about what we're lacking, Rich ... why, them's fightin' words!
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Dan
I used the "and/or" construction just for you!
John Kirk
That statement of yours is as mysterious as it gets. Get a grip on yourself!
Rich
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I may need to get a grip, but I am enjoying myself immensely as I descend. After taking a shot at a top 1 modern course, would there be any other choice?
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Rich
I think we've discussed Haultain's "Mystery of Golf" before. Believe me, I'm a sucker for that kind of writing, on just about any subject under the sun - but Haultain just doesn't do it for me. I think it just struck me why that is: it's because he writes about the mysteries of golf with so little genuine mystery and magic that I understood everything he was trying to say (and all the 'mysteries' he kept alluding to) by about by page 12. Somehow, I'd have thought the 'mysteries' would've lingered longer in my thoughts and thinking.
Also, he somehow lacked 'authority', i.e. reading him, I felt something like I'd imagine you would if I wrote a huge book about the mysteries of TOC about a half hour after having played it for my first time.
Now Behr, on the other hand, that to me is like trying to read Hegel (I say "trying to read" because I dropped that course about half way through). :)
Peter
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Peter
See if you can find the "GCA Celebrity Death Match--Behr vs. Haultain" thread from 2003, when GolfClubAtlas was a kinder, gentler place....
Rich
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Doug,
You can't talk about one without the other. I have a wonderful publisher, but they can't do much in the way of marketing -- nothing like the big houses. My publisher told me they can't get my book into airport bookstores, because it hasn't sold enough -- and it hasn't sold enough because, in part, it isn't in airport bookstores.
That's publishing.
Where's Yossarian when you need him?
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The fact that Rich liked it is the final nail in the coffin for me - and you have my permission to use that on the book jacket as well. :)
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If you didnt like Golf in the Kingdom, the sequel will make even harder reading..
One caveat, A friend of Michael Murphy who has also taught Golf in the Kingdom classes at Esalen is a great read and a great teacher if you can work with him..
Fred Shoemaker-- Extraordinary Golf and Extraordinary Putting.. He may be the true Shivas Irons.
BTW, I've heard that Quantum Golf was written about the teaching pro TJ Tomasi.. I once took some lessons with him and he winked when I asked him about that.. TJ is into brain research and science though not exactly meta physics..
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Fred Shoemaker-- Extraordinary Golf and Extraordinary Putting.. He may be the true Shivas Irons.
Fred Shoemaker not only is into the mental side of the game but probably is as good a shotmaker as anyone. At about 150lbs, or less, few golfers can hit it past him. He lives about a mile or so away from me and gives clinics at MPCC from time to time.
Bob
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The fact that Rich liked it is the final nail in the coffin for me - and you have my permission to use that on the book jacket as well. :)
C'mon George.
Tom Huckaby + Rihc Goodale= Real Men of Genius. ;)
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Fred Shoemaker-- Extraordinary Golf and Extraordinary Putting.. He may be the true Shivas Irons.
Bob-
The best I ever hit the ball in my life, it was just Fred and I on the range..He made some subtle Socratic like advice thru asking me questions... If I had a golf in the kingdom experience that was it, because at that moment i felt i could hit it high,low, draw, fade, cut, hook, straight..
Fred Shoemaker not only is into the mental side of the game but probably is as good a shotmaker as anyone. At about 150lbs, or less, few golfers can hit it past him. He lives about a mile or so away from me and gives clinics at MPCC from time to time.
Bob
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If there were any way to have made my wisecrack about Kirk Gill's expertise in the effects of various illegal substances without risking someone's thinking that I intended some serious commentary thereby, I'd have dispensed not only with emoticons, but with my "long-winded equivalent."
That's "alleged" expertise.
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Rihc, agreeing with me is a beautiful thing. First step you, next step Mucci, then I conquer the world.
Now, for the amusement of Doug Wright, as he nervously awaits tonight's first pitch....
Bold is announcer, italics is singer.
BUD LIGHT PRESENTS, REAL MEN OF GENIUS
real men of genius.....
HERE'S TO YOU, MR. ENJOYS SILLY GOLF BOOKS ABOUT SCOTLAND AND OTHER MYSTICAL THINGS OF LIFE LIKE GOODALE AND HUCKABY-ER
Mr. enjoys silly golf books about Scotland and other mystical things in life like Goodale and Huckaby-er....
YOU READ A BOOK THAT EVERYONE SEEMS TO HATE, AND THAT DOESN'T BUG YOU - YOU FIND A LOT TO LIKE ABOUT IT. THAT JUST MAKES YOUR FRIENDS CONFIRM THEIR HATRED.. AND THAT THEY SHOULD HATE IT MATTERS NOT TO YOU, IN FACT IT MAKES YOU SMILE.
My friends all think I'm a wacko....
So here's to you, oh lover of odd golf books. Don't let the bastards get you down - we know you won't.
Mr. enjoys silly golf books about Scotland and other mystical things in life like Goodale and Huckaby-er....
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Rihc, agreeing with me is a beautiful thing. First step you, next step Mucci, then I conquer the world.
Now, for the amusement of Doug Wright, as he nervously awaits tonight's first pitch....
Bold is announcer, italics is singer.
BUD LIGHT PRESENTS, REAL MEN OF GENIUS
real men of genius.....
HERE'S TO YOU, MR. ENJOYS SILLY GOLF BOOKS ABOUT SCOTLAND AND OTHER MYSTICAL THINGS OF LIFE LIKE GOODALE AND HUCKABY-ER
Mr. enjoys silly golf books about Scotland and other mystical things in life like Goodale and Huckaby-er....
YOU READ A BOOK THAT EVERYONE SEEMS TO HATE, AND THAT DOESN'T BUG YOU - YOU FIND A LOT TO LIKE ABOUT IT. THE FACT THAT MAKES YOUR FRIENDS CONFIRM THEIR HATRED.. AND THAT THEY SHOULD HATE IT MATTERS NOT TO YOU, IN FACT IT MAKES YOU SMILE.
My friends all think I'm a wacko....
So here's to you, oh lover of odd golf books. Don't let the bastards get you down - we know you won't.
Mr. enjoys silly golf books about Scotland and other mystical things in life like Goodale and Huckaby-er....
Thanks Tom, I needed that--as you would say, audible yuks.
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I withdraw my earlier statements. There may be no hope for Huck
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Huck,
Great stuff. I love those commercials. The fantasy football one is my favorite.
I thought the book was silly.
I did enjoy the Bagger Vance book however.
-
There is no hope for me.
And Michael, this is my new favorite:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0Y7yjxJVlc
;D
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"See if you can find the "GCA Celebrity Death Match--Behr vs. Haultain" thread from 2003, when GolfClubAtlas was a kinder, gentler place...."
Richard:
Haultain couldn't wash Behr's shorts and I think you know that. But like a number of other things you just can't seem to bring yourself to admit the truth.
Gushing over how wonderful something like the first fresh footprints in the dew on the first hole is sort of special, I guess, for a middle-schooler. ;)
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Haultain couldn't wash Behr's shorts...
If Behr's shorts were as messy as his prose ... well, who could blame Haultain?
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Peter
See if you can find the "GCA Celebrity Death Match--Behr vs. Haultain" thread from 2003, when GolfClubAtlas was a kinder, gentler place....
Rich
Rihc,
You mean this one?
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=1160;start=msg23240#msg23240
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There is no hope for me.
And Michael, this is my new favorite:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0Y7yjxJVlc
;D
As a Miami Hurricanes lover (and I know they too suck right now too) and by default a Noter-Domer-Hater that one is a real classic!
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Behr looked into the subject of architecture via the mind of a golfer or an architect or artist and he looked into it deeper by a factor of about ten than anyone else ever did.
Behr's prose was merely a game on his part to induce the reader into feeling he was figuring things out on his own.
Oh, sorry, actually Behr's prose was a sport on his part to induce the reader into feeling he was figuring out things on his own.
Behr was the ultimate defender of Nature's place in golf. He was a naturalist and Nature to Behr is random.
You might call Behr's prose messy, but I'd call Behr's prose purposely random like Nature herself.
The only real problem Behr had with his writing is he apparently felt there weren't quite so many obtuse dolt-heads like Richard Farnsworth Goodale in his general audience. And that fact, my friends, is most definitely "in the premises". ;)
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Ok ok ok....
Enough ND bashing on this site...Here is a nice feel good clip for the Golden Domers. I must admit, it always gets a bit misty in the air when I watch the movie..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5L0ThLloD8
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Huck,
Don't let Mr Mucci see that one.
Here's a goody:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX7MnGIW0to
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Dan K
you might well be right about Haultain being the better prose stylist, but I can't get past the feeling that he was mainly a fine writer and thoughtful man who just decided, for a little while, to turn his attention to golf...and then moved on. I think he probably could've written just as entertainingly about the mysteries of early physics, or ragtime, or talking pictures. That's a real talent; but that's not the same thing as being able to get to the heart of the subject-matter.
I should be clear: I liked "Mysteries of Golf", but less than I thought I would; maybe I was expecting too much from it, given the title. But I also think it harder to write well about a subject one really knows (because then you know its nuances and knotty-points and contradictions, but still have to make those clear to the reader) than it is about a subject one doesn't know that well, where rhetorical flourishes and the beauties of language might just save the day for you.
And then there's intangible sense of 'authority of voice', or lack of it. Listen to Louis Armstrong play 3 notes and you know that this is a master of his craft; he's forgotten more than most will ever know. I don't get that feeling from Haultain but do get it from Behr, a long-time champion golfer and an architect; so I tend to make more allowances for any lack of clarity in his writing. I just assume the problem lies with me.
Peter
Doug - thanks for the link. I'd found it earlier but was bad in keeping it to myself. (I don't know how to do that 'link'). It is a fun read....and Dan K gets a reference in to Max Schmeling.
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Huck,
Don't let Mr Mucci see that one.
Here's a goody:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX7MnGIW0to
Oh please, I've used that on Mucci several times already. It 's too good NOT to.
And kudos go to Scott Burroughs for sending that one to me in the first place.
Loved the Philadelphia sports fan one!
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Haultain couldn't wash Behr's shorts...
If Behr's shorts were as messy as his prose ... well, who could blame Haultain?
A (short) Post of the Year candidate.........
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I guess I better pipe in here since I'm a "wacko" Shivas Irons Society member ;).
My introduction to the society resulted from first reading Fred Shoemaker's book - Extraordinary Golf. I had just started playing golf regularly 6 months prior, and the day after reading Fred's book, I shot a 76. Several months later, I was doing so regularly. Fred's book really resonated with me and inspired me to coach myself, and I've now gotten down below 4 with only a single lesson.
Years earlier, I had started reading Golf in the Kingdom. I was drawn to the book's insights into the game of golf and the spirit with which it can be played, but I must have been disappointed at some level and never finished the book. But after learning about Shoemaker's affiliation with Michael Murphy, I gave the book another try. Admittedly, I did get more out of the book the second time.
A couple excerpts from the book I enjoyed include Shivas' reminder that "your handicap is not an exact mirror of your soul, it is your relation to your score that really counts," reminding us that the game can be about self-discovery instead of just about performance. And that golf is played at many levels and for many reasons, but as Murphy shares, "Golf is first a game of seeing and feeling. It can teach you stillness of mind and a sensitivity to the textures of wind and green. Golf is also a game to teach you about the messages from within, about the subtle voices of the body-mind. And once you understand them you can more clearly see the ways in which your approach to the game reflects your entire life."
After rereading the novel, I found out about the Shivas Irons Society and checked out their website, and learned there that they had an upcoming event scheduled near me at Alisal Ranch. I decided to join to see what these people were like, seriously expecting as Tom Huckaby does, that they'd be a bunch of wackos. Instead, I found them to be a very interesting group of people, nearly all quite successful in their careers, that simply love the game of golf. They were pretty good golfers too.
Then, last month, I joined them again for a trip to Bandon Dunes, at a weeklong event hosted by the SIS and Fred Shoemaker. As Bob Huntley shared, Fred is certainly as good a shotmaker as anyone, and gets a lot of distance out of those 150 pounds! He's a great teacher/coach too.
I got to play with Fred the first day on the 1st 9 holes at Bandon Trails. I was a little nervous, but not overly so. I bogied the 1st hole with a 3-putt, but then settled down and came in only 1-over par after 9. I don't know if it was his influence or not, but I birdied 3 holes and we both drove the short par 4 8th. My 160 pounds did a pretty good job keeping up with his 150. He just looked better doing it ;)
Anyway, I again enjoyed the company of this, perhaps eccentric, but not too wacky group. I expect they were a little more liberal that I am, but they were very fun group to spend the week playing golf with.
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RB: that's great stuff.
Just please re-read what I wrote... I said
The shivas irons society is a bunch of wackos.. and I think they'd admit that and relish the title.
It was meant as a term of endearment, not an indictment in any way.
TH
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TH: I read it as you intended ;)... it gave me a chuckle, so I had to refer to it.
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TH: I read it as you intended ;)... it gave me a chuckle, so I had to refer to it.
Gotcha! Very cool, just wanted to make sure.
TH
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Put me in the group that has read Golf in the Kingdom more than once, twice actually. The first two thirds of the book is an easy read. The last third or so is a bit much for me.
The first time I read the book was in the mid 90s prior to my first trip to Ireland which I went solo. I went not knowing what to expect and I was struck by the warmth of the few members that I met at Ballybunion. Although no one wore a blue sweater that seemed to glow. After my trip I could relate to Michael's story and his experiences at the golf course, subsequent dinner party, and the night of drinking. So I went back and read the book again.
A links course at night can be an eerie or maybe even a supernatural place especially after a wild whiskey ride like Michael had in the book.
It's been a long time since I've picked up the book but I can remember the story lines.
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Add me to another that is a big fan of Golf in the Kingdom. I knew nothing about the book when I picked it up in 1983 and gave-up on it after about 20 pages. I pulled it off my bookshelf again in 1984 and loved it right away and read it straight through in a few days.
I like the story very much, but especially the cast of characters. The dinner when the hosts and guests have a full evening discussing golf was my favorite part. I even like the third part of the book, with the notebook sections.
I still think the section on why golf should be a walking game is one of the great defenses against carts in golf.
Of course I did not take the book serious. It is a fun read, but a good read. The dinner guest and their discussions about golf make me think of some of the discussions on this site.
After I read this book I shared it with some of the people I caddied for, and quite a few of them enjoyed it enough to pass it on to still others.
I think my tastes of modern American fiction are pretty standard. Some of my favorite reads are:
Huck Finn
To Kill a Mockingbird
In Cold Blood
Breakfast at Tiffany’s
One Flew of the Cuckoo's Nest
Fanny and Zooey
The Universal Baseball Association, Inc., J. Henry Waugh, Proprietor
The Right Stuff
I also like all of the golf writings by Darwin, Wind, Charles Price, Lorne Rubenstein, and Peter Dobereiner
On the humor side I like the writings of Wodehouse, Dan Jenkins, Woody Allen, and Fran Liebowitz
I only list the above as a rough guide to my overall tastes in books and as an example that my tastes are not generally way out there, but are fairly standard.
I am not surprised that some do not like this book. I did not like The Great Gatsby. Now even though I did not like Gatsby, I realize that it is a much better book then Golf in the Kingdom. But for some personal reason, Gatsby just did not click for me. No book can win over every reader, and some books may find quite a few detractors. But Golf in the Kingdom is not just silliness. It just requires one who is willing to have certain cockeyed outlook at the world and is willing to take a ride on Michael's little journey. For those readers who enjoy the offbeat approach of Mr. Murphy, I think Golf in the Kingdom offers some good writing with this little escape of a read.
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As I said in that other thread, I read half of it -- and quit, never tempted to return.
Call me a heretic!
Dan,
You made it further than I did. I read to page 72, and the bookmark is still in the book in case I ever am tempted again. Granted, I'd have to start over anyway, its been a few years since I tried the first time.
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I'm with you on this one Sir Bob
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I'm really happy to see Fred Shoemaker getting some notice here. Creation of awareness is a noble profession.
Extraordinary Golf is book that has had a wonderful impact on my life.
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Any book that makes you look at golf in a slightly different, more natural and less mechanical way is a good thing in my opinion.
C'mon guys...think about it.
You have this tiny pellet, lying on the ground. You take an elongated stick and swing it, making contact with the little ball, thereby hurling it into the air, against the elements and vagaries of nature, travelling across the span of multiple football fields towards a protected target.
The fact we can do it with even the slightest degree of proficiency....in 2, 3, 4 shots to a hole the size of the rim of a coke can across a hostile terrain...and sometimes even with great ease and finesse...suggests to me that there is way more than the physical at play here.
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GITK starts off as a piece of narrative fiction and it's not a half-bad story, either. The problem is that the reader feels not only let down but betrayed when it abandons that form and spins off into the ether. Not to say it comes as much of a surprise, given the mystical underpinnings, but it violates the basic understanding that a story will have a beginning, middle and end. Any text, film, piece of music, that takes on this form (or, perhaps, lack of form) is going to have its detractors.
I happen to appreciate--not like, much less love--GITK. I think it's a very flawed book that was written in the searching spirit of the time. I realize that the '60s hangover curdled into cynical exploitation of people's spiritual fragility, that a lot of snake oil was sold (not that this was unique in American history--look at the revival tent boom of the 1830s and '40s), and that certain remnants of that era have a very distinct, unctuous tone that has not aged well.
While George is probably right that it has compelled a lot of golf stories to slather on the woo-woo, that suggests to me that people really do believe that golf has its spiritual, even mystical, facets, and that maybe someone can take us a little farther than Murphy did. I don't think that's a bad thing.
A related anecdote: Last spring, I arranged to play a fourball at Lahinch with a group of Benedictine monks. These guys were the real deal--chanters, meditators, services five times a day, living in a romantic castle cloister far from the fallen world. I thought for sure I'd get a GITK moment out of this, I'd find out how people who really think about this stuff might connect golf with the human spirit.
Turns out the monks were typical Irish golfers--total trash-talkers and grind-you-down single-digit players. The Benedictines are really into beauty and harmony with nature, but I was not going to get ANY of that. On the Dell hole, I missed about a 5-footer for par to halve the hole. So, we hit our drives on the next hole, and I'm walking down the fairway with the monk I'd arranged the game with, Brother Simon, who was on the opposing side in this match. He stops and sets his bag down and says, in his spaced-out uber-mellow monk-voice, "You've had a long drive today. Are ya hungry, Tom?"
He produces two bananas from his golf bag. One is the platonic IDEAL of a banana, the other looks like it's been in the side pocket since the Reagan Administration. The entire skin is black and nasty. He looks at the two bananas, one in each hand, and offers me the OLD ONE!
I take the banana and peel it, and the inside contents are basically LIQUID, like soft-serve on a 100 degree day. Half of it slops right onto the turf at my feet. Then he gives me this beatific smile, such a perfectly exaggerated piss-take, and heads off toward his ball, miles out there down the centerline, while I look for my crapulous slice in the rough.
I think Golf in the Kingdom helped me appreciate that moment. ;D
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and let's not forget our recent US guest...the Dali Llama....
Big hitter, so it's said.
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I have highlighted every important principle, concept and quotation in the book. They are the reason I don't play for score anymore.
I think it's important to differentiate, "not playing for score" and "not keeping score".
BTW, Steve Cohen, the founder of the SIS, told me at Bandon that the course in the novel is the "Old Course".
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Tom,
Thank you for a great story. I love it when I get to church and expect my parish priest to add some insight to some "significant current event", and then instead he delves into some centuries old principal that is of true significance. It is good when someone can show me that what is really significant.
Shivas,
Thank you for sharing why this book works for you. That is all that matters with a book. Can it work for the reader, by offering entertainment, insight, or some nourishment for the soul or mind? And for you, and for me, this book works. And for those who the book does not work, no matter. There are plenty of other books available.
One of the lessons I took from How to Read a Book (an incredible classic by Mortimer Adler and Charles Van Doren), is that the reader needs both the "light" books and the "meatier, heavy" books. Also, that through reading, one learns to be a better reader. Through these lessons, I have stopped viewing some books as “simple”. There are certainly many books I prefer to avoid, and that seem to not offer me anything, but I can not therefore judge the reader who likes that book. That reader may get something from that book that I could not get, or that book may just not work for me.
The lesson, I will pass to my children is to not allow themselves to stop learning to be better readers and to not stop growing as a reader. And it does require harder some reading, to grow as a reader.
So for some of us Golf in the Kingdom really connects with something missing from our approach to golf. For others it offers nothing.
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I have read the beginning several times but never really gotten into it. The premise is neat, I guess but it just doesn't pull me in. I guess that I need to read the entire book.
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Murphy has a tin ear for the Scots brogue which is something that has always annoyed me about GITK. Having said that, it is a messy haystack of a book that has some great insights within that I re-visit continually, kind of as a reference book. It is actually on my nightstand all the time, along with Hogan's "Five Lessons". GITK for inspiration, "Five Lessons" for instruction.
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I never read it but I did download an audiobook version of it to my iPod and listen to it while driving back and forth to one of the Dixie Cup events. To my recollection it started out intriguing but a little to cutesy for my taste, got a bit better for a while in the middle and then just devolved into claptrap toward the end.
At whatever point there was a section about going to dinner at someone's house one evening and sitting around afterwards comparing metaphysical whatsits...right at the beginning of that scene was my last hope of anything remotely enlightening. The book is a relic of the 70's and kind of like some of those old, washed-out movies from that period it must have seemed like there was more to it at the time than was really there. What a depressing decade.
Your comment is startling. I got about halfway through the book, hopeful up to this dinner scene and it just dissolved for me at that point. Never wanted to pick it back up. I thought I was just missing something when I still see many refer to it as the best fictional golf book they have ever read.
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This thread proves that, either I was wrong about GITK or you guys have been improving your lie for a long time. :)
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I have highlighted every important principle, concept and quotation in the book. They are the reason I don't play for score anymore.
I think it's important to differentiate, "not playing for score" and "not keeping score".
BTW, Steve Cohen, the founder of the SIS, told me at Bandon that the course in the novel is the "Old Course".
Was that even in question?
Apparently not. I just added this remark since there was a discussion a while back about an SIS Journal article by Tudhope? which recommended just "playing" and "not keeping score"... just making it clear that you weren't suggesting this.
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Actually I think Neil Regan might be Shivas Irons! Never seen a guy putt off the fairway like Neal!
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Shivas: ah, you meant the course of course ;) and I admire your attitude about scoring!!
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My friend shivas and I have discussed this issue many times. His "NATO" approach (Not Attached To Outcome) is a healthy one indeed. I too try to play this way, and have achieved a lot of fun and joy in this manner. It is sane, for sure.
But as I've told shivas, it leaves out one very fun part of the game: the satisfaction one gets when one plays competitively and succeeds (or fails, but gives it a good try). To me, NATO golf is very fun for sure, but I can't live too long without testing myself in this manner. His answer is he plays plenty of betting games that achieve this same result; and maybe he's right. But he also knows that playing for calligraphy (that is, with your score posted up there on the board for all the world to see) is a very different type of golf with very different pressures... and satisfactions if such are overcome.
This is all yet another reason this game is so great - there are so many different ways to play it.
I just would hesitate to say that one way fits all. I don't think anyone is saying that here.
TH
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shivas: heck yeah you invented it - apologies for lack of attribution there. ;)
And I know, I know, you've done way more than your share, without a doubt. You also have way higher standards than most that you used to play to. So your way works well for you.
But for those of us without such high standards, well... like I say, there are many ways to play this game.
TH
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The slippery slope to 200 yard drives and a 23 handicap. The day I play in a B flight, let alone a D or whatever is the day the sticks get donated to Make A Wish...
Shivas me boy,
Don't bet on it.
Bob
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Shivas is turning all gushy-gooey on us. Don't keep score, just have fun, everyone is equal, we don't have to compare ourselves to anyone else.. ;D ;)
Sounds like the mush my kids get day in and day out at school. Competition is bad, we're all winners, everyone is smart, blah, blah, blah
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Kalen, not keeping score or being attached to your score has nothing to do with the "competition is bad, we're all winners, everyone is smart" mush you're accurately describing our kids being exposed to! Competition is invaluable in teaching us about our weaknesses and where we need to work to improve. However, making your satisfaction dependent on winning isn't necessarily healthy.
As a mushy and wacky SIS member, I love competition. I'm a member of 3 men's clubs and finished 3rd or better in all 3 leagues this year. I think my detachment about the outcome (NATO) is what makes me such a successful competitor ;).
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You know, gents, most of the talk on this thread seems to me to be in code (part flippancy, part rhetoric). What not many want to say is that, for all its flaws, the book does a good job of challenging the reader to ask two basic questions: is there a spiritiual dimension to the universe, and is golf unique in its potential to serve as a channel for and conduit to that dimension? Embarrassing questions to discuss on a discussion board, I know; and the book is indeed far from perfect (with the sequel being to me unreadable). But like many of you, I've played other sports competitively in the past, and there's none but golf that has ever had me even considering those questions. Isn't that one of the reasons the game can mean so much?
Peter
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There is a little of the mystic in me. I once spent two months in a cistercian monastery and could have stayed.
One of the better books on the mystical and sport is Running and Being by George Sheehan. As much as I enjoyed it, Golf in the Kingdom pales in comparison.
Nonetheless, there is a mystical side to sport. I shot 69 the other day in an outing. It was the lowest round in years. I barely remember swinging the club or hitting the ball. It was as if I were in a different place or state of being. It was magical, not because of the score but because of the interior pleasure and peace I experienced.
Sport is more than running, hitting a ball, fielding a grounder, or making a hook shot. It is more than the outcome. It is also what that goes on inside when doing it.
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I attended a function with some SIS guys who were visiting Atlanta several years back, and did not find them to be wackos at all. In fact I found them to be uncommonly down to earth and good company. Most were very successful professionals, including quite a few in the finance industry. By and large golf seemed to be an outlet for a sense of romanticism their worked denied them. A group of us played East Lake in a rare Atlanta snow and everyone had a great time.
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A couple of years ago I was led to the to the back of a cavern in a cenote in the Yucatan region of Mexico....I was with a group of four others and when they wanted to go back, I said go ahead as I wanted to experience total blackness and lack of sound for a while on my own...I had a small flashlight and knew I would be able to get out easily.
After a while the after flashes from the receding lights diminished, and for a period I experienced a tomb like state, totally devoid of senses. After probably a few hours....which could of only been 45 minutes....I really had no idea....I perceived a dimly lit passage appearing in front of me. I decided to grope along and follow it to its end...which I did and pushed through a what seemed to be a round door.
Upon doing so I was bathed in sunshine....and surrounded by bright red cliffs, unlike any I was familiar with.
To make a long story shorter, I found a road and eventually someone picked me up and upon asking , I was told I was outside Sedona, Arizona.....imagine my surprise!
Fortunately I had my credit cards and was able to get a flight back to Georgia.
I haven't been in a cave since....no way :)
I'm not sure this post fits this thread, but I thought I would post it anyway.
chow!
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What not many want to say is that, for all its flaws, the book does a good job of challenging the reader to ask two basic questions: is there a spiritiual dimension to the universe, and is golf unique in its potential to serve as a channel for and conduit to that dimension? Embarrassing questions to discuss on a discussion board, I know.
I'm not embarrassed to say that if there is a spiritual dimension to the universe, hitting and chasing a ball it is not its unique conduit.
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Michael - you must know I meant unique in the terms of the sports we play. If there is a spiritual dimension, I'm sure that even this discussion board would be a potential conduit.
Peter
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BTW, Steve Cohen, the founder of the SIS, told me at Bandon that the course in the novel is the "Old Course".
If that is the case, how do we explain Lucifer's Rug and the lair of Seamus? There are no features at The Old Course that bear any resemblance to these.
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"If that is the case, how do we explain Lucifer's Rug and the lair of Seamus? There are no features at The Old Course that bear any resemblance to these."
Literary license?
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You know, gents, most of the talk on this thread seems to me to be in code (part flippancy, part rhetoric). What not many want to say is that, for all its flaws, the book does a good job of challenging the reader to ask two basic questions: is there a spiritiual dimension to the universe, and is golf unique in its potential to serve as a channel for and conduit to that dimension? Embarrassing questions to discuss on a discussion board, I know; and the book is indeed far from perfect (with the sequel being to me unreadable). But like many of you, I've played other sports competitively in the past, and there's none but golf that has ever had me even considering those questions. Isn't that one of the reasons the game can mean so much?
Peter
Peter,
That's extremely insightful and to-the-point and I have nothing further of value to add, unfortunately.
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....and I would like to second Mikes post about Peters post.
Golf for me includes many aspects of spirituality, both personal and with nature.....its much more than a game or sport.
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Here's a different view- Golf In The Kingdom is factual and we are spirits with bodies. I am always looking for the local guy that will take me to dinner at somebody's house and then we get a little drunk or whatever and go check out the playground after everyone is gone. Things get interesting about then; moonlight hikes up ski slopes and skiing the moguls in monochrome, golf in the dark and never losing a ball, skinny dipping with a girl way out of my league...gotta take some chances now and then. Oh yea, one more; when we die we go on living.
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A couple of years ago I was led to the to the back of a cavern in a cenote in the Yucatan region of Mexico....I was with a group of four others and when they wanted to go back, I said go ahead as I wanted to experience total blackness and lack of sound for a while on my own...I had a small flashlight and knew I would be able to get out easily.
After a while the after flashes from the receding lights diminished, and for a period I experienced a tomb like state, totally devoid of senses. After probably a few hours....which could of only been 45 minutes....I really had no idea....I perceived a dimly lit passage appearing in front of me. I decided to grope along and follow it to its end...which I did and pushed through a what seemed to be a round door.
Upon doing so I was bathed in sunshine....and surrounded by bright red cliffs, unlike any I was familiar with.
To make a long story shorter, I found a road and eventually someone picked me up and upon asking , I was told I was outside Sedona, Arizona.....imagine my surprise!
Fortunately I had my credit cards and was able to get a flight back to Georgia.
I haven't been in a cave since....no way :)
I'm not sure this post fits this thread, but I thought I would post it anyway.
chow!
Paul,
Some forty odd years ago after a particularly bad call in the commodities market in South Africa, I found myself mining copper in Northern Rhodesia, hard by the Belgian Congo border.
Like you, I was at one time trapped underground by a flash flood off the shaft face. At no time did I think of some spiritual topic like Shivas and being the ball or whatever, but was absolutely scared shitless, thinking, what next. Obviously things worked out, but it never ceases to amaze me that people think that there is something uplifting in inviting disaster by putting ones life at risk.
I know that climbing Everest and trekking through hostile terrain is condidered the ne plus ultra of the adventuresome man, personally these days ,I'll sit at home and have a gin and tonic and let my liver deliver the answer.
Bob
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Bob.....I would enjoy sharing stories with you over a gin and tonic because I too have had my share of life threatening close calls.....more in hazardous occupations than while adventuring. My earlier life was comprised of much wandering and working around much of this world, and although I probably travel more miles annually now than in my youth [15 work trips to Cabo this year alone], the travel and work is much more tame in comparison.
I had my first of my three children rather late in life [age 37], which was probably good for all parties. It was then that I gave up risk taking for the most part, as the idea to do anything else would be extremely selfish. I've long since sold my ABS whitewater canoes [I now have three kayaks, but they are for flat water paddling....mainly in the swamps, rivers and marshes where I live], and the days of soloing class 6 whitewater runs are becoming memories that are fading along with the muscles that propelled me.
Now I will still take in the spiritual tonic of contemplating in the dark while in the back of a cave....in fact I recommend it, especially in the cenotes of the Yucatan....the water is clean and the temps are warm and cozy.
I almost bought into an ecovillage outside of Playa del Carmen a few years back....Pueblo Sacbe [its worth a google]....but ended up buying a bunch of river swamp in south ga.
My earlier post was playfully poking fun at some who believe that the Sedona area, Mayan ruins etc, are interconnected 'power points', where one can channel all sorts of things. I tried and failed and then went on a more sensible quest for mucho cervesa...con limon por favor!
I don't know what this all means anymore than I know what golf, mystics and spirituality means.
But along these lines, and as I've told my friend Peter P, I would much rather prefer to think of my cup as half full [of spirits] than half empty. ;)
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Here in Chicago, it's getting close to gutter cleaning season. Despite the snowballs chance in hell anything happens, there is no fricking way in hell I'm ever getting up there...one of the Werner kids, from Werner ladders, is an old friend. The stories I hear about product liability lawsuits because some schmoe gets on a ladder and ruins his family's well being because he wanted to do something himself are sickening.
I imagine some might have missed the news about Max McGee, former Green Bay Packers great (and the answer to the trivia question "Who scored the first touchdown in Super Bowl history?"), who fell to his death last week while blowing leaves from his roof.
A couple of articles:
http://www.twincities.com//ci_7238082?IADID=Search-www.twincities.com-www.twincities.com (http://www.twincities.com//ci_7238082?IADID=Search-www.twincities.com-www.twincities.com)
http://www.twincities.com//ci_7306921?IADID=Search-www.twincities.com-www.twincities.com (http://www.twincities.com//ci_7306921?IADID=Search-www.twincities.com-www.twincities.com)
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And an Amen to Shivas...
I never got to play golf with my father -- who was a pretty decent player -- because he shattered his ankle falling from a ladder while washing windows above our driveway when I was a kid. He took a few swings after that, but couldn't enjoy the game anymore and essentially gave it up.
His father died after falling from a ladder while pruning a tree in his back yard.
Then there's Max McGee...
Stay off your roofs, folks. Stay off ladders.
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lol...just to play devils advocate...
Does this mean everyone is giving up using automobiles as this is by far and away, by a huge margin the biggest cause of accidental death in America?
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LOL?
What's so funny?
Everyone's going to die.
Many are going to die accidentally.
But falling off a ladder or a roof is a lousy way to die accidentally.
Just my opinion, of course. You should feel free to die any way you like!
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LOL?
What's so funny?
Everyone's going to die.
Many are going to die accidentally.
But falling off a ladder or a roof is a lousy way to die accidentally.
Just my opinion, of course. You should feel free to die any way you like!
Doctor K? Is that you, posting under an alias?
(http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1993/1101930531_400.jpg)
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Pretty sad that Time would stoop so low - but not surprising, I guess.
I know that climbing Everest and trekking through hostile terrain is condidered the ne plus ultra of the adventuresome man, personally these days ,I'll sit at home and have a gin and tonic and let my liver deliver the answer.
Bob
One of the saddest things I've ever read was John Krakauer's account of the ill-fated Everest expedition, which appeared in Outside magazine before he fleshed it out into a book. There was one part where one of the expedition leaders was sitting on top on the world, and everyone knew he wasn't coming off the mountain, so they connected him to his wife, pregnant with their first child. Simply heartbreaking; it's hard to comprehend his decision to go there.
Kalen -
Most people have to use their cars.
Most older men do not have to climb up ladders to the roofs of their homes.
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George,
Will all due respect, most of us only choose to use our cars out of convience and preference, not out of need. Other options are available, but less preferrable.
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George....I've read the book and have also have spent time in the region 23 years ago....pre wife and kids.
I think the Nepalese government would be doing a humanitarian favor if they didn't issue trekking/climbing permits to anyone who wasn't single and wanted to climb above 20,000 ft in the so called dead zone.
They won't of course because its a good source of revenue in a poor country....when I was there the average length span for a Sherpa male was in the forties....not surprising for a culture where a person typically gets two baths in thier lifetime, one at birth and one at death, neither of which they remember. I would hope its risen above 50 by now that especially, as Bob says, "its become the adventuresome mans ne plus destination".....along with the resulting cash and jobs.
I hear that Namche Bazaar now has electricity at times, and a minimal health care clinic....but I'm sure its hard to get a Sherpa woman to take off anything for an exam.
Sometimes you can learn more about where you don't want to go, by going.....similar to being able to learn more from your mistakes than your successes.
I have no passion for taking my kids there.....but no regrets about my time either.
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All this talk of ladders reminds me, I need to climb up mine to get on the 2nd story roof and fill in some more holes in the side of my chimney... thanks to a family of acorn woodpeckers. Can't seem to get rid of 'em.
Back on topic... anyone see this? (Golf in the Kingdom - The Movie?)
Golf in the Kingdom movie promo at YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxJOa90u_VY)
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George....I've read the book and have also have spent time in the region 23 years ago....pre wife and kids.
I think the Nepalese government would be doing a humanitarian favor if they didn't issue trekking/climbing permits to anyone who wasn't single and wanted to climb above 20,000 ft in the so called dead zone.
They won't of course because its a good source of revenue in a poor country....when I was there the average length span for a Sherpa male was in the forties....not surprising for a culture where a person typically gets two baths in thier lifetime, one at birth and one at death, neither of which they remember. I would hope its risen above 50 by now that especially, as Bob says, "its become the adventuresome mans ne plus destination".....along with the resulting cash and jobs.
I hear that Namche Bazaar now has electricity at times, and a minimal health care clinic....but I'm sure its hard to get a Sherpa woman to take off anything for an exam.
Sometimes you can learn more about where you don't want to go, by going.....similar to being able to learn more from your mistakes than your successes.
I have no passion for taking my kids there.....but no regrets about my time either.
Paul,
I would love to meet you. Do to come to Monterey and I'll treat you to some golf and we can reminisce on some our more stooopid exploits.
Bob
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Bob, I will look forward to that.