Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: John Kavanaugh on August 02, 2007, 07:52:17 PM
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I often play an Elks course in Vincennes, In which is around 10 miles from home. Last time I bought a season pass it was around $400 for the year plus my dues of $50. This was an out of state rate that may have now passed me by.
The front nine is the original nine and is as interesting as any classic course of shortness can be given the budget. The new back nine (1980's) is as bad as golf can be for reasons I can't explain as all I ever have done is pay and play. Any attempt to explain just how awful every aspect of the design is hurts my head. My only complaint about the course is that it is far too busy for my tastes with outings, school teams and old men. It is a fantastic partner in the Vincennes community.
Rich once asked me to do some interesting research but I have failed him miserably. Just came to mind again as I started the thread.
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Funny you should mention this, John. I played an Elks course yesterday for $20. In my opinion it is the third best course in Pinehurst. EDIT: Actually, I don't know what "best" means. I'm not qualified to judge. So let me say this: it is now my second favorite course in Pinehurst, and if someone asked me to vote, that's where I'd put it on my ballot!
Its first six holes are all world. I am not exaggerating!
Also, the routing is fantastic, genius quality. Mark my words, this course will achieve its rightful recognition in the golfing world. The Elks have leased it to a company that promises to put money into its upkeep.
Does that still count as BPOE?
Mark
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Though I have never been a member I also play the Sullivan, In Elks course a couple of times a year. Another very affordable 18 hole layout squeezed on to small a piece of land. One of my favorite holes in the tri-state is the 260 yd par 4 tenth which runs directly contiguous to a recently widened road. Anything left of center runs down the road directly onto US 41.
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There once was a nice quirky Elks course in Hillsboro, Oregon called Orenco Woods. (Oregon Nursery Company).
I think it's been plowed under for McMansions.
I found this from planning commission notes from 2004:
Robert L. Smith, 1105 SE 52 Ct., Hillsboro, a member of the Elks Lodge, echoed what Mr. Edwards said and added that the golf course was no longer a viable business. The golf course was losing money. If the Elks Lodge was not able to sell this land, they may not be able to continue the same level of charitable giving. He explained why they chose Venture Properties to develop the site and the importance of preserving the natural space. Mr. Smith submitted additional letters of support for the record.
"No longer viable" = "We can sell the land for much more than we make in green fees".
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Mark,
Are you talking about the Elks course than Ran plays? I would consider it still to be BPOE if my brothers get a discount...
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Yes, that's the one: Southern Pines.
It mystifies me how this course isn't more highly regarded. I think it has a reputation for poor conditioning. But let me tell you yesterday at least those greens were running faster than #2's.
And this morning I ran into my club's pro down here. He's played everywhere in the US and UK. When I mentioned it to him he got as animated about it as I was. His reaction was an eye opener for me; there is genuine excellence in that course!
(Surely it disproves your earlier comment that the way to get a course into one of those rankings is to have a vocal and well-placed sponsor...)
Mark
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Mark,
What are the two better courses in Pinehurst?
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Also, the routing is fantastic, genius quality. Mark my words, this course will achieve its rightful recognition in the golfing world. The Elks have leased it to a company that promises to put money into its upkeep.
I would like to hear another opinion if leasing Southern Pines out is a good thing. I can only see a leasing company wanting to increase revenue through tourists and that means more length and other stupid tourist ideas. I'm not feeling this to be a positive development.
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Hey John,
Our posts must have crossed as I edited mine to read I don't know what "best" (or "better") really means -- but Southern Pines is my *second* favorite course there.
I like Pinehurst #2 better, mainly for the greens but also for the routing (I prefer the walk; although it is a longer one, it's a flatter one), the par 3s, and for the "worst" holes on #2 being preferred to the "worst" on SP.
How bout you?
Mark
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I have not played Southern Pines. I was concerned you were going to tell me that Tobacco Road was a better course or even Pine Needles.
I have only played Pinehurst #2, Mid Pines, Pine Needles, Tobacco Road, Forest Creek South and parts of an unfinished North. I too like Pinehurst #2 best.
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John, I can understand that concern. Just passing along what the pro shop guys told me; they said the leasing company plans only to improve the conditioning and market it more widely. Maybe the local experts can chime in.
I will say its conditioning was plenty fine for me; those greens rolled fast and true. There were a few areas of rough and fairway where the grass appeared to be a strain that didn't belong on a golf course but on someone's lawn, but they weren't in areas that bothered me.
Mark
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Maybe we can get Jim Thompson to comment. He is managing the one in Grand Rapids MI.
Is it just me or does it seem like all the Elks courses were designed by Ross?
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Is it just me or does it seem like all the Elks courses were designed by Ross?
Ralph,
There is an Elks course in Kankakee, IL, that Dan Moore has on his list of targets that is a Langford-Moreau. It looks trip-worthy on the web site.
Sorry John, I haven't played it, but I'd be interested to hear from someone who has.
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The State College Elks Course makes for a pleasant diversion with some good holes, and also one of the worst architectural features in the game: "the play to one side of a pole to prevent cutting a corner pole."
It also contains a quirky, uphill 260 yard par 4, and a great finishing stretch: 12-18, which trundles down the hillside and back up. The terrain is much more severe than it appears from US 322.
The 8th and 9th are two of the most terrifying holes I've played in terms of terrain, with 9 being a 210 yard par 3 over a chasm where anything right is death.
There's a good variety in distance in the par 4s and the par 5s are good 2.5 shotters.
All in all, it's very playable and enjoyable, despite some of the short comings.
Nice view of Beaver Stadium from the 12th tee, as well.
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Mark,
I've played nearly all the courses in the area and SP is the worst conditioned I've seen. At least one of the golf package companies have de-emphasized it due to client complaints and a group I visit PH with every year refuse to play it anymore. The conditions are fine with me and the course is so good I'd play it any day. But I think the leasing company has a big hill to climb if they want to attract more visitors. The clubhouse area needs work and the course can use a lot more help than just water and fertilizer.
My worry is that the Elks will sell the property for housing. The 9 holes next to the current course are already overgrown and the land is prime for development.
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HAMilton Elks in Hamilton, Ohio has 18 original Ross holes and a bewer 9 by Hurdzan. The original back nine is very good.
Portsmouth Elks in Portsmouth Ohio is a Ross which is excellent and little changed from the original. AS far as I know only one green has been extended and the routing is completely intact. Originally the Portsmouth CC. IF it werer in a better location I'd try to by it- It is a real gem.
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Craig,
There is a development going up to the right of the second and third holes. You can't see it from the second but you can from the third. This is in addition to the condos / huts already there. Is that where the third nine is / was?
The guys in the pro shop explicitly said the course was being leased not sold.
And surely I played better conditions -- "more than just water and fertilizer:" what do you mean? I would chop down a few trees here and there, and actually plant trees in one specific location, but it was all I could do not to turn left off 18 green and walk right over to 1 tee. (Maybe we're "bones" men and don't pay too much attention to the skin?)
I can see the complaints about the clubhouse...but I come to play golf, not eat a turkey sandwich!
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I know the condos you're talking about - very nice, but being awakened by the 0245 roaring through every night would get old.
Part of the abandoned 9 - a fairway, green, tee box, and tee sign - can be seen to the right of the 13th tee. It's mostly covered by brush. The 9th green can be seen to the right of the 18th. The last time I was there it was being used as a practice pitching area.
Parallel to the par 3 7th was a fairway from the old-old nine. I doubt if anything is left of those holes.
Taking trees out would be easy. E.g., on the 5th fairway the bunkers on the left which would catch a tee shot running down the slope are well surrounded by trees; the trees sitting in the old bunker on the right of #11 could go; etc. etc. Many of the bunkers have lost their edges thanks to the sand-pro. Some spots it's impossible to tell where the bunker begins. The ones on the 5th fairway are like sandy smudges.
A couple years ago I played the course and was pleasantly shocked by how open the area around the 1st fairway looked. I asked Ran how the club had decided to take down so many trees - he said that a wind storm had them out. Maybe another kamikaze attack would help.
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I often play an Elks course in Vincennes, In which is around 10 miles from home. Last time I bought a season pass it was around $400 for the year plus my dues of $50. This was an out of state rate that may have now passed me by.
The front nine is the original nine and is as interesting as any classic course of shortness can be given the budget. The new back nine (1980's) is as bad as golf can be for reasons I can't explain as all I ever have done is pay and play. Any attempt to explain just how awful every aspect of the design is hurts my head. My only complaint about the course is that it is far too busy for my tastes with outings, school teams and old men. It is a fantastic partner in the Vincennes community.
Rich once asked me to do some interesting research but I have failed him miserably. Just came to mind again as I started the thread.
Don't mope, John. Lesser men than you also failed me miserably in that writing project (on courses other than Vincennes).
Slainte
Rich
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HAMilton Elks in Hamilton, Ohio has 18 original Ross holes and a bewer 9 by Hurdzan. The original back nine is very good.
Portsmouth Elks in Portsmouth Ohio is a Ross which is excellent and little changed from the original. AS far as I know only one green has been extended and the routing is completely intact. Originally the Portsmouth CC. IF it werer in a better location I'd try to by it- It is a real gem.
Jim - You're so right about Portsmouth. I believe one of my golf heroes, Howard Baker Saunders probably still holds the course record there. Mr. Kavanaugh, sounds like you're in the area and should take a trip over.
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Don't know if this is a comprehensive list, but here it is:
http://www.elks.org/lodges/LocalFacilities.cfm?LookFor=4&Submit=Facilities
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The Elks course in my home town is a bit of a Jekyll & Hyde course. The front nine was a fun, short course. The total course is measures 5909 yards. The front nine has a creek running through the course, but it only comes into play in a great way on the 8th hole where one has to can carry the creek on the drive and then the creek fronts the green. The ninth hole is a par 3 hole with overhanging tree branches that can affect the shot into the green if the pin is right. The back nine which was added, maybe 13 years ago, has often been referred to as playing on Mars. It is on poor soil and the back nine is a housing project more than a golf course. The developer offered to build the back nine for the club as part of his housing development. The green are "drop down" greens vs. the "pushup greens" on the front. I say drop down because the developer simply dropped soil from lake excavation on the existing turf and rough shaped the mud into greens. I saw the back nine under construction and asked the super when they were going to shape the greens. He said they were seeding tomorrow.
It is the classic case where the course was more fun as a nine hole course than it is as an 18 holer.
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John K,
Who designed the original 9 holes at Vincennes?
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Funny you should mention this, John. I played an Elks course yesterday for $20. In my opinion it is the third best course in Pinehurst.... it is now my second favorite course in Pinehurst, and if someone asked me to vote, that's where I'd put it on my ballot!
Correction. The Southern Pines Golf Club (Elks Club) is in Southern Pines. :)
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John K,
Who designed the original 9 holes at Vincennes?
Dan
John K doesn't know (at least he hasn't told what he knows), but I suspect that Archie Simpson (pro there from 1922-1926)was involved.
Rich
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HAMilton Elks in Hamilton, Ohio has 18 original Ross holes and a bewer 9 by Hurdzan. The original back nine is very good.
Portsmouth Elks in Portsmouth Ohio is a Ross which is excellent and little changed from the original. AS far as I know only one green has been extended and the routing is completely intact. Originally the Portsmouth CC. IF it werer in a better location I'd try to by it- It is a real gem.
Solid golf course in Portsmouth!!! Great mix of holes. That #10 can bust a lot of balls!!!
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I would like to hear another opinion if leasing Southern Pines out is a good thing. I can only see a leasing company wanting to increase revenue through tourists and that means more length and other stupid tourist ideas. I'm not feeling this to be a positive development.
I am an Elk and a golf member of the club. There was little choice about leasing the club so the "decision" to do it was a non-decision.
Whether or not it is a good thing. It depends on your preference.
The course is in great condition (better than it has in years). The contract involves a great deal of investment by the leasee. Additionally, modifications to the course cannot be made without approval. Finally, there is not a ton of room to add tees further back on most holes unless you want to tee off from the previous green.
Unfortunately, there will be more play on the course. It will no longer be a "secret" or at least a course the perfect-conditioning-seeking tourist will shun any more. For me, that means it will be harder to just spur of the moment leave work early and walk on for a quick 9 or 18. The "only" thing really needed right now to keep the golf package people from getting perhaps justifiably pissed off is bunker rennovations. Even if you can excuse the conditions, they are very inconsistent. The 9th has four bunkers around the green with four different consistencies.
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Part of the abandoned 9 - a fairway, green, tee box, and tee sign - can be seen to the right of the 13th tee. It's mostly covered by brush. The 9th green can be seen to the right of the 18th. The last time I was there it was being used as a practice pitching area.
Parallel to the par 3 7th was a fairway from the old-old nine. I doubt if anything is left of those holes.
Taking trees out would be easy. E.g., on the 5th fairway the bunkers on the left which would catch a tee shot running down the slope are well surrounded by trees; the trees sitting in the old bunker on the right of #11 could go; etc. etc. Many of the bunkers have lost their edges thanks to the sand-pro. Some spots it's impossible to tell where the bunker begins. The ones on the 5th fairway are like sandy smudges.
A couple years ago I played the course and was pleasantly shocked by how open the area around the 1st fairway looked. I asked Ran how the club had decided to take down so many trees - he said that a wind storm had them out. Maybe another kamikaze attack would help.
Many of the trees along 17, 18, and 1 came down or were damaged in a torando a couple of years ago.
To th3 best of my knowledge, there was never a hole next to 7th. The only places the Cardinal 9 got near the other two were along the 13th (Cardinal 6th) and 18th (Cardinal 9). The original Cardinal 9th ran up what is now the driving range. The green was where the pool and/or practice green are now.
The old pictures of the course show pretty much no trees anywhere,(sand greens too) which was mostly the case throughout early Southern Pines and Pinehurst. I'd prefer to see some go or at least get the understory cleared out. I don't mind seeing other holes on the course.
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My worry is that the Elks will sell the property for housing. The 9 holes next to the current course are already overgrown and the land is prime for development.
Not likely to happen. It is not zoned for it. The Town Council is not likely to rezone it either. How do I know? I'm on the Southern Pines Town Council.
There's a fair chance the "little 9" (Cardinal) will be brought back. There is also enough land to build nine more holes.
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Funny you should mention this, John. I played an Elks course yesterday for $20. In my opinion it is the third best course in Pinehurst. EDIT: Actually, I don't know what "best" means. I'm not qualified to judge. So let me say this: it is now my second favorite course in Pinehurst, and if someone asked me to vote, that's where I'd put it on my ballot!
Its first six holes are all world. I am not exaggerating!
Mark
I would say the first 9 holes are all world. What don't you like about the great redan 7th? The awesome downhill, slight dog leg 8th with the great green contouring and the amazing par 3 ninth? These 3 holes are every bit as good as the 1st six.
I first played SP in 1997 and loved the layout and the conditioning wasn't an issue back then. However, over the years it has become progressively worse. So much so that I didn't play the course the last couple of times I was there. I'm not one to complain about conditioning of a golf course, but it had become to the point that it was actually affecting my enjoyment of the course. I think if the conditioning was good, it would be one of my favourite courses in North America. It's just that good.
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I haven't played there since about 2000. But, S.P. G.C. Elks has always been one of my best memories of the way golf ought to be. I also played the "little nine" which seemed like they were cutting the FWs maybe once a week and greens maybe twice at that point. I felt it was perfectly obvious that the "bones" of that course are still there and a remodel-simpathetic to Ross ideas would be a wonderful undertaking.
I don't know any of the internal club politics, what was needed to keep the maintanence to a modest but acceptable level. I just hope that restraint, and conservative approaches to management are the underlying intentions of the powers that be there, because it is one of those courses and places where the idea of golf for the common people should be practiced as a tradition and where the line should be drawn regarding keeping high dollar sign dreamers and skeemers away.
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Regarding the special relationship that the Elks have to golf, I looked into it some years ago. I forget what all I found. But, the 11th hour bell toll for those missing was (I think) a tradition that traced back to the Scots. Are the Elks founded by and upon many Scottish philosophies and traditions?
The area Elks course near Green Bay is actually on the lake shore in Manitowoc. I never played it. It is pretty rudimentary looking.
Did the Elks approach this recreational ammenity at some of their clubs as an asset that was to be very modestly maintained, very accessible to the poeple, and not generally desirable to oversee what would be considered competitive-tournament type courses?
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Many of the trees along 17, 18, and 1 came down or were damaged in a torando a couple of years ago.
To th3 best of my knowledge, there was never a hole next to 7th. The only places the Cardinal 9 got near the other two were along the 13th (Cardinal 6th) and 18th (Cardinal 9). The original Cardinal 9th ran up what is now the driving range. The green was where the pool and/or practice green are now.
The old pictures of the course show pretty much no trees anywhere,(sand greens too) which was mostly the case throughout early Southern Pines and Pinehurst. I'd prefer to see some go or at least get the understory cleared out. I don't mind seeing other holes on the course.
Chris,
I based my comments on a 1930s aerial of SP. The Cardinal nine is clearly visible but there are corridors for what appear to be another 9. The corridor that is next to #7 was a par 4 with the tee about 50 yards east of the #7 tee. The hole ran south to north. The aerial shows that the Cardinal nine was in play but the other holes had either been abandoned or were never completed. It's also appears possible that the Cardinal 9 was culled from an original 18, maybe the first 4 and last 5 holes. The routing wandered well out to the east over what is now housing.
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Evan,
Yes 7 thru 9 are really good; however, those specimen trees down in the valley that reach up to obscure the green site made me feel like a crop duster.
9 is very good but I didn't like it as much as 3. It's also in a tough neighborhood, seeing as it's sandwiched between 8 and 10.
Mark
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I thought the orginal 9 and Vincennes Elks was Langford and Moreau??
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Chris,
That's what I thought from looking at the Google earth aerial but have not seen the course or any documentation that it is one of theirs.
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There's an Elks club course here that was built in 1899, and expanded to 9 holes in 1900. Its got some really crazy holes, the second hole is a short par 5 where the second shot falls down a 40 foot cliff about 80 yards from the green, so its totally blind. There's a bell you ring to signal to the group behind that you've cleared the green.
Its also got a horseshoe shaped par 5 that's only about 250 to the green, but you can't play it that way because of trees, but if you can hit a banana slice off the tee it should be pretty easy. I found it quite difficult in my first visit in 20 years a month ago or so, modern equipment doesn't lend itself well to much of a fade and I hit a 300 yard drive that probably didn't get me even 150 yards closer to the hole!
There's a 260 yard par 4 with a tiny little raised green and trouble all over the place that is a strategic mystery I've yet to solve. You can go for the green and risk trouble, you can lay up about 50 yards short and have a flat lie but a totally blind approach, or you can lay up 100 yards short and have a severely downhill and sidehill lie but have a clear view of the green.
The 8th hole has you teeing off across the driveway that's about 100 yards out, there's a sign at both ends of the road that tells you to watch for golfers before driving across the road. I think a duck hook could take out the windshields of the cars on the far edge of the parking lot, its a good thing I'm not a member there or I might need to take out some supplemental insurance just in case ;)
Its got two new holes since I played it 20 years ago, they traded the city some land and built a new par 5 (nice hole) and a par 4 (OK hole) They got rid of a boring par 3 that's used as a practice hole now and a par 4 I can't remember, so the par went from 35 to 37 as a result.
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Funny you should mention this, John. I played an Elks course yesterday for $20. In my opinion it is the third best course in Pinehurst. EDIT: Actually, I don't know what "best" means. I'm not qualified to judge. So let me say this: it is now my second favorite course in Pinehurst, and if someone asked me to vote, that's where I'd put it on my ballot!
Its first six holes are all world. I am not exaggerating!
Mark
I would say the first 9 holes are all world. What don't you like about the great redan 7th? The awesome downhill, slight dog leg 8th with the great green contouring and the amazing par 3 ninth? These 3 holes are every bit as good as the 1st six.
Evan
I agree with you. 7-9 is probably the best 3 hole stretch on the course. Though I really like #s 4, 17 & 18 as well. In any case, I shall look to play Southern Pines again so long as they don't catch Pinehurst Ripoff Fever.
Ciao
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Dan,
Look in C&W I thought there is a Langford and Moreau 9 hole course in Vincennes that was built in the 20's I believe. I have not played it, but I want to. I know that Langford did the Oakland City 9 hole course down the road that C&W list as a Langford solo course, but that was much later than Vincennes.
Chris
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Erik Terhorst and I played Kankakee Elks yesterday in a light to medium rain for all 18 holes. It is a Langford Moreau design with an excellent set of greens and at least 8-9 really terrific holes. The course has been the site of a Futures Tour event the past few years.
The playing conditions were quite good--Lawsonia would benefit from greens in that condition.
However, the course is the worst example I have seen of a tree planting program run amok. Many of the L/M bunkers framing the fairways are now in the trees and many of the holes are dotted with new trees planted in the last 2-3 years. When those trees mature some of the greens will only be accessable from one side of the fairway.
Green fees were $36 to walk and I recommend seeing it for some excellent holes and super L/M greens and for the sick feeling you will have after you imagine what ther course will be like in 20 years when the 100's of new trees mature.
Here is one example showing older trees blocking the left hand side and new plantings on the right. Green is visible on the far left.
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/troonster/Kankakee%20Elks/112eh.jpg)
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Dan:
Did you double up at Harrison Hills?
Is Kankakee bunkerless ala L/M's Spring Valley in WI? Kankakee looks that way from some aerials I've seen.
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Dan:
Did you find the remnants of the old par 3 fifth hole I believe on the front side??? I am sure the replacmeent par 3 jumped out at you as it did me as not being L&M.
What did you think of the uphill long par three on the back 9. There are some terrific L&M holes there.
I believe all the bunkers were orginally sand, but let go to seed.
Chris
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Any other Bay Area (Peninsula) folks play at Emerald Hills in Redwood City? That was a regular course for my dad.
http://www.emeraldhillslodge.com/golf.htm (http://www.emeraldhillslodge.com/golf.htm)
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I was wondering if anyone would bring up this beauty, Kevin. Oh yes I have played it many times...
during the several years I lived in San Carlos
I was a regular there also.
Fun little course. Horrid conditions, but fun.
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Dan, I am glad I was not with you. I think I would have thrown up to see what you describe and what is quite evident in the picture. Yet, you say the greens are 'better' than Lawsonia? How so? Faster, firmer... what?
When you think about the time it takes a rough mower, endlessly circling tree trunks VS open roughs with straight passes, just that alone you would think a frugal Elks maintenance committee would realise the benefits of getting rid of the trees. Then, to consider how much fun they would open up by loosing the trees, and putting some sand back in those seeded over bunkers, which are flat and wouldn't be that tough to maintain... well it boggles the mind. It is as if you had a vintage Jaguar or other such classic car and drove it around all the time, not changing oil, or tuning it up or even washing and polishing it. Pity...
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Tom, the (tiny) greens at Emerald Hills are in fine shape. The conditions aren't horrid at all these days. (Well, some tees are a bit dodgy, but who cares?)
It's a great natural golf course, reminiscent of a mini-Stanford, due to all the Oaks, but a lot hillier. Pretty much what a course that charges like $12 should be - natural and fun.
It's a great way to get your wedge game in shape, because hitting the greens from 105 yds is not easy. If you do hit them, you'll always have a good shot at birdie!
I take the boys (7 & 9) out there, but due to the hills, it ends up nearly inducing a heart-attack for me, since I often have to carry 3 bags :)
I never realized that the BPOE had such a collection of courses...
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JK:
I haven't been there in several years - good to hear they gave it some TLC and it's now in good shape. When I played it the greens were all crabgrass. But it has been at least 8 years since I've been there.
Agreed re how fun it is (was), natural, etc.
TH
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I think I'll start a thread on Kankakee Elks with more photos tonight when I have some time. The 1939 aerial shows little or no sand on the course. It also shows very few trees except for a grove where the 8th green and ninth tee were inserted. By the greens being better than Lawsonia I was referring mostly to speed. More tonight.
p.s. At Kankakee Elks in the LPGA Futures Tour tournament this year Seo-Jae Lee set a new record of -8 over 54 holes besting Nicole Castrale's -7 in 2005.
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Phil,
We didn't double up at Harrison Hills, but it did come up in conversation.
Chris B
We saw the remains of the old par 3 5th and were told it was changed for safety reasons. Consensus was the par 3s as a set are very good, including the new one, which is uphill 140, and fits nicely with the downhill 175 yd 7th, the level 140 yd 12th with a tiny highly contoured green, and the one-of-a-kind 200+ yd 15th with its huge engineered green. Dan will have some pictures.
I was thinking that the par 3s stand out because they haven't been ruined by the aggressive tree-planting :-\
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Eric_Terhorst:
I like the par 3's as well especially the uphill 200 yarder with the huge engineered green and the short 7th. I am not a huge fan of the new 5th hole, definetely does not fit. I would have loved to play the old 5th. Looks like it was a very good hole.
Thanks,
Chris
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Dan M. - A good friend caddied @ The Futures Tournament @ Kankakee and 3 friends played. I looked @ the aerial and it sure appeared to me that many bunkers had been grassed in over time. I would like to se that old aerial thanks
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I think I'll start a thread on Kankakee Elks with more photos tonight when I have some time. The 1939 aerial shows little or no sand on the course. It also shows very few trees except for a grove where the 8th green and ninth tee were inserted. By the greens being better than Lawsonia I was referring mostly to speed. More tonight.
p.s. At Kankakee Elks in the LPGA Futures Tour tournament this year Seo-Jae Lee set a new record of -8 over 54 holes besting Nicole Castrale's -7 in 2005.
Hopefully the 1939 USGS(?) has enough detail to show the "ghost" outlines of the filled-in bunkering. The 30's were definitely a bad decade for the earlier courses.
Does Tufts Archives have any plans or notes for the course?
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I will post the aerial later in a seperate thread on the course; hopefully I'll have time tonight.
I would think there was sand there too once upon a time if I hadn't seen the aerial and wasn't aware they didn't put any sand in the bunkers at Spring Valley. It took a while to convince me they never had sand at Spring Valley, but I am convinced now even if the old plans show 65 sand bunkers.
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I would bet they were designed as bunkers and the golf committee and/or construction team didn't follow through. Or depending on what year it was built and how close to the depression that was, they were probably filled in relatively quickly.
Get a 3' soil probe and go down into the middle of them. They tended just to be top soiled over and you can find a substantial layer of sand down there. I was told by the super that the bunkers at my old Ross course could have been dug out, refilled and be right back into business.
Running around with a soil probe on an old course is a lot of fun.
You will learn a lot about the green pads too.
This is of course based on the course not having been worked on too much.