Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: John Kavanaugh on August 01, 2007, 09:29:05 AM
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I was surprised yesterday at how many features that could be considered classical popped up at Hulman when they started to remove the trees and open things up. The 11th hole has a perfectly placed hogs back in the lay up area that can only be described as found by dumb luck given how the hole has stood as a monument to poor design for the last 30 years. What are other examples of well known features that are there because they had to be and not because of design. I'm thinking the entire 18th at The Riviera is a prime example...It's not like the course wasn't going to go back to the clubhouse.
Somebody said something yesterday about how classic courses were routed through the weakest enviornment for tree growth. I'm not sure that makes any sense in the light of day.
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...Like blind shots? I'd say they were by necessity...
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JK,
Not trying to be a wise guy but doesn't 'found by accident' imply that they weren't looking for such 'stuff' in the first place?
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The GCA write-up on Bandon Trails has a nice description of how Coore sort of "found" some really interesting terrain through an incredibly thick, wooded area that they converted to fairway. He did it by insisting on hiking through woods that perhaps lesser architects might have simply routed around, or not found suitable.
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I'm sure that all great architects make the best use of the natural features of the land when considering the routing. Shoreacres is a simple example of this concept. It's clear that Raynor made great use of the meandering ditch on both nines to create interesting cape holes and one with an amazing split fairway. He also made good use of the ravines on both nines. His first, ninth, and eighteenth holes are relatively benign in appearance, but this was necessitated by the location of the clubhouse. The classical features that he placed on the golf course (the so-called template holes) seem perfectly suited to the terrain in retrospect, but they must have made sense to him at the time.
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John:
It doesn't necessarily invalidate your point, but there is a sketch in George Thomas' book which shows that the second half of the 18th at Riviera was built with an enormous volume of fill. So, the hole had to go there, but they had to do a lot of deliberate work to make it happen.
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I don't know if I would seek out the weakest environment for tree growth to route holes, but to put some where there are no trees - less clearing $$ - might be the same thing in reverse.
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John:
It doesn't necessarily invalidate your point, but there is a sketch in George Thomas' book which shows that the second half of the 18th at Riviera was built with an enormous volume of fill. So, the hole had to go there, but they had to do a lot of deliberate work to make it happen.
Thanks for clearing that one up for me. Any idea how much higher the ridge that I just can't seem to carry was made...Of course I always play from the wrong set of tees into a head wind.
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John -
I must be misunderstanding you, because all I can think to say is that "there's no there there". That is, except for the fact that a golf course exists, any naturally occurring feature would simply be present "somewhere", but certainly not "there"; the "there" you're speaking of is somewhere on a specific golf course, and while the naturally occurring features on that course exist and abound, they can’t be said to exist (or at least, to be situated) "there" independently of that golf course's design (or redesign/renovation). In other words, they've been put "there" (and are not just "somewhere") by virtue of the fact that an architect routed and designed the course around or over or through those features, thus giving them a very specific and identifiable location we can handily describe as being "there".
I said that I must be misunderstanding you because a) I think you know more about all this than I do, and b) your question still seems like one that merits/warrants an answer based on something more than word play. But that’s what it seems like to me.
Peter
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Peter:
I think John K is on to something with his question. I recommend reading this:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/bandontrails1.html
It's the single best description I've read in the challenges of routing a course, and how a great router -- Coore -- found holes and terrain that might have been bypassed by lesser talent or those less willing to use their imagination and explore unconventional approaches to routing. I've not played Bandon Trails, but the process by which holes were "discovered" there speaks to John's point, it seems.
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Phil -
thank you. It's a fine article, and just goes to prove that talent always trumps theory.
But to be fair to my theory (and this may be where I'm misunderstanding John's post), I thought he was talking about features that were utilized, not those that might've been but weren't. It's in that context that was I suggesting that the very existence of meaningful features on a golf course can't really be separated from the process of designing the course (happy accidents and all) or from the course in its final form.
Peter
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JakaB,
I hope I understand your question properly.
I don't think that many things occured by accident, although, they may have occured by opportunity.
The classic designers were very frugal and very efficient.
Very little went to waste.
It was not uncommon to create features from construction debris.
Is that an accident, or a routine methodology ?
I think it was their modus operendi, so, I think very little occured by accident.
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In my opinion, a lot of good features occur by accident. A smart architect should be able to recognize these and not try to fix (eliminate) them but where possible, take credit.
John, I'm curious as to the Hulman you refer to. It wouldn't by chance be Hulman Links in Terre Haute would it?
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Yes, Hulman Links in Terre Haute...Have you played there recently?
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In my opinion, a lot of good features occur by accident. A smart architect should be able to recognize these and not try to fix (eliminate) them but where possible, take credit.
Mike Dasher,
Could you cite five specific examples ?[/color]
John, I'm curious as to the Hulman you refer to. It wouldn't by chance be Hulman Links in Terre Haute would it?
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John:
About thirty years ago, shortly after it opened. Surely some clearing must have taken place before now. Isn't eleven the serpintine par five up a draw? Thirty years ago there wasn't enough sunlight to grow fungus.
Patrick:
Civil War battle trench (forget hell!)
A low mound placed to keep scrapers from crushing a pipe
A crude ramp, built by the first dozer on the site, to allow for unloading subsequent equipment.
A breached cattle pond
RIB remnent
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"John:
It doesn't necessarily invalidate your point, but there is a sketch in George Thomas' book which shows that the second half of the 18th at Riviera was built with an enormous volume of fill. So, the hole had to go there, but they had to do a lot of deliberate work to make it happen."
TomD:
Really? I was under the impression that the green site, at least, of the 18th of Riviera was a massive "cut" (up into the hillside below the clubhouse). Maybe that's where the "fill" came from for what leads up to the green.
I wouldn't call this "by accident" but the famous "Quarry Hole" of Merion (#16) probably never would've happened if one on the committee hadn't had the bright idea in the middle of the night to trade land to make the first half of that hole happen. The next day they blasted the top off the quarry and the green site was born.
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Craig Disher,
I'm sure you can cite isolated examples, but, the early designers were incredibly frugal and efficient, leaving very little to chance. Convenience, opportunity and above all, cost was a driving force in their work.
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John:
It doesn't necessarily invalidate your point, but there is a sketch in George Thomas' book which shows that the second half of the 18th at Riviera was built with an enormous volume of fill. So, the hole had to go there, but they had to do a lot of deliberate work to make it happen.
Thanks for clearing that one up for me. Any idea how much higher the ridge that I just can't seem to carry was made...Of course I always play from the wrong set of tees into a head wind.
John (and Tom Paul)
from my understanding from Shackleford's book on Riviera, the 'work' was necessary near the green and the approach to the green. IIRC, there was a large wash which covered the area short of the #18 green which flowed trhough where #3 tee and #2 green (and, so to a lesser extent #10 tee and #9 green). This was filled in and shaped, and the whole area is now difficult to pick as 'man-made'.
I am not aware of whether there was any 'cut-in' into the hill for #18 green. It may have occurred but I am not aware of it from my reading to date.
I am not aware of any amendment to the tee-shot on #18 though John. However, without the work on the wash by the green, the resulting second shot would not be what it is today. So, perhaps the tee-shot on #18 was there, but the quality of work from the shot point to the green is what completed the hole, and made #2 and #9 greens to be part of what they are today.
By the way, #18 is an amazing hole. Looking down from the clubhouse, it looks so simple. A pushover, almost. So easy to fantasise about where you will be able to get your tee-shot, and then play a shaped wood or a long-iron to the green - the card yardage shows it won't be that impossible, will it? Then you actually play the tee-shot up the hill and suddenly you discover that you are playing beyond your means, and out of your league. Such a long way to the top of the hill for your tee-shot, then such a long way to the green for an accurately shaped second, then an embarrassing, longish, uphill third that plays longer than you think after your inevitable failure on the tee-shot and/or second shot. That memorable 4 that you fantasised about from the clubhouse earlier on is more likely to have become an (unfortunately) unforgettable and tired 6.
The quality of Allenby's three-wood second shot on the 72nd hole there one year became more apparent to me from my visit to Riviera.
I wonder how different modern architects would have bunkered a hole such as Riviera #18 today?
James B
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Pat,
Here is a good example of accidental feature... lots and lots of rain.
I'm going to have that type of accident happen more often.
Cheers
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I would like to know how much of Yale was found by accident because of the blasting.
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JakaB,
They didn't blast at Yale to find features, they blasted at Yale to form the features that Raynor/MacDonald had already conceptualized.
James Bennett,
Are you suggesting that the 18th green at Riviera sits on a natural plateau cut into the side of that hill, absent man's involvement ?
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Patrick,
I don't believe that blasting technology in Yale's day was percise enough to eliminate accidental random luck.
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JakaB,
Blasting was a common, if not the method of dealing with rock in those days and those fellows were quite skilled at that endeavor. I don't think there have been too many technological advances in blasting methods where rock formations are concerned.
Everyday my house shudders from blasting since a developer has chosen to build into the side of the mountain (very small) that we live on.
Some of the homes on the other side of the street, closer to the blasting, have suffered structural damage.
If they've improved blasting technology over the last 81 years it's not in evidence in my neighborhood.
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James Bennett,
Are you suggesting that the 18th green at Riviera sits on a natural plateau cut into the side of that hill, absent man's involvement ?
Patrick
I don't recall whether blasting was involved or not. I do remember from the drawing the filling in of the wash in front of the green. So, it may be that the green is built partly on fill at the front, rather than blasted out of the hill at the back.
It also may be that you are right (ie cutting into the hill).
I will check Shackleford's book later this evening and check Thomas's sketch of the #18 earthworks.
James B
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Patrick
I checked Shackleford's book on Riviera for the Thomas sketch (my copy of Golf Architecture in America is on loan to a course supt interstate, so I can't check that at present).
On page 68 and 69 of Riviera Country Club's Definitive History, Thomas's graph of the side profile of #18 is reproduced. It shows that without the wash being filled, the green site would have been set just before the wash at a hole length of some 310 yards. With the wash filled in, the green could be located at 430 yards. The chart shows that the new green site would be raised about 10 feet above the natural grade through fill. The area short of the green was to be raised some 27 feet in the deepest part of the wash. So, the sketch implies that the #18 green has been raised and built entirely on fill, and not cut into the hill.
Thomas did write that 'wash was filled by soil taken from the hill at right and greater length secured. Drainage was cared for by piping'. The hill to the right in the sketch is the hill leading up to the clubhouse. The sketch does not show where the cut was proposed.
So Patrick, I think this implies the green was raised, rather than cut into the hill.
There is some interesting editorial on these pages by Ben Crenshaw, who was involved in the restoration of Riviera greens with Bill Coore. Ben described Riviera as
'quite possibly the very finest MADE golf course in the United States'.
Later, he added
'a major fill (27 feet!) was utilized for filling a natural wash some 100 to 150 yards short of the present 18th green, and for the No. 18 green site as well. Thomas and Bell took vast amounts of earth and filled the areas at the base of the clubhouse for several reasons:
1) it took the feature of abruptness out of this wash in order to provide a more gradual climb toward the finishing hole;
2)more length was provided and thus made #18 a more challenging hole;
3) the 18th hole now merged "imperceptibly" with the land leading up to the clubhouse to provide a more natural appearance;
4) to provide a wonderful "natural" amphitheatre for the finish of the round for spectators;
5) the balance of the "cut" and "fill" was utilised in the formation of the Second green, the 3rd teebox, and the 9th green and its surroundings.'
The Definitive History is a good read indeed. I appreciate my copy.
James B
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John — What is a "classical feature"? How does it somehow get its own category...because it was born in a certain period? Do you also include archaic features, ancient features, etc. in the range "classic"?
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John:
About thirty years ago, shortly after it opened. Surely some clearing must have taken place before now. Isn't eleven the serpintine par five up a draw? Thirty years ago there wasn't enough sunlight to grow fungus.
Patrick:
Civil War battle trench (forget hell!)
A low mound placed to keep scrapers from crushing a pipe
A crude ramp, built by the first dozer on the site, to allow for unloading subsequent equipment.
A breached cattle pond
RIB remnent
Mike, I have had all of those occur and plenty more.
How about inexperienced dozer guys, or experienced guys who came to work drunk? Or were argumentative?
I got so mad at a dozer guy one day I got into a rare screaming match (of course, here on gca.com, not so rare, but that is a different story.....) He had been building everything too soft and I told him he could stop digging this grass bunker when I told him to. I went across the creek to see another green site, got in a discussion, and happened to glance back. The dozer appeared to be gone and I started back there, thinking he had gotten mad and left the job.....just then, I saw the top of the dozer cab appear from the hole being dug. I was almost going to fill it back in a bit, but the client came by and loved it so it stayed.
As you say, when things happen, you have to recognize them, and make the most of them. Its the best way to break down the subconsious formulas and ideas we all have (whether we care to admit them or not)
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I checked Shackleford's book on Riviera for the Thomas sketch (my copy of Golf Architecture in America is on loan to a course supt interstate, so I can't check that at present).
I have a copy in front of me.[/color]
On page 68 and 69 of Riviera Country Club's Definitive History, Thomas's graph of the side profile of #18 is reproduced. It shows that without the wash being filled, the green site would have been set just before the wash at a hole length of some 310 yards. With the wash filled in, the green could be located at 430 yards. The chart shows that the new green site would be raised about 10 feet above the natural grade through fill. The area short of the green was to be raised some 27 feet in the deepest part of the wash. So, the sketch implies that the #18 green has been raised and built entirely on fill, and not cut into the hill.
The schematic/sketch shown on page 69 is "an approximate sketch."
If you'll look at page 128 you'll see a photo of # 18 green taken on opening day. If you're familiar with the site, you know how steep the incline behind and left of the green are.
It appears more likely that the green was benched into the side of the surrounding hills vis a vis a cut and fill method[/color]
Thomas did write that 'wash was filled by soil taken from the hill at right and greater length secured. Drainage was cared for by piping'. The hill to the right in the sketch is the hill leading up to the clubhouse. The sketch does not show where the cut was proposed.
So Patrick, I think this implies the green was raised, rather than cut into the hill.
I understand what you're saying, however, the slope coming down to the green from behind and left are softened as they approach the green. I would think it was a cut and fill situation rather than strictly a fill situation.[/color]
There is some interesting editorial on these pages by Ben Crenshaw, who was involved in the restoration of Riviera greens with Bill Coore. Ben described Riviera as
'quite possibly the very finest MADE golf course in the United States'.
I think you have to examine the context of Ben's remarks.
They are for publication in the Riviera history book and Riviera was a client of theirs, hence, you wouldn't expect anything other than glowing remarks. I think that Yale, Lido and NGLA might hold that distinction[/color]
Later, he added
'a major fill (27 feet!) was utilized for filling a natural wash some 100 to 150 yards short of the present 18th green, and for the No. 18 green site as well. Thomas and Bell took vast amounts of earth and filled the areas at the base of the clubhouse for several reasons:
1) it took the feature of abruptness out of this wash in order to provide a more gradual climb toward the finishing hole;
2)more length was provided and thus made #18 a more challenging hole;
3) the 18th hole now merged "imperceptibly" with the land leading up to the clubhouse to provide a more natural appearance;
4) to provide a wonderful "natural" amphitheatre for the finish of the round for spectators;
5) the balance of the "cut" and "fill" was utilised in the formation of the Second green, the 3rd teebox, and the 9th green and its surroundings.'
Crenshaw acknowledges the cut and fill nature of the 18th green in points 3, 4 and 5.[/color]
The Definitive History is a good read indeed. I appreciate my copy.
Me too, I'm trying to obtain more of these club histories.
I wish that some of them would be updated since they were written a while ago, and, I"d like to see more and more of them focus on the architecture as well as the other topics.[/color]
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Patrick
I think Ben said 'quite possibly' the very finest made course in America. I also recall the good Doctor often making very glowing remarks about several of his courses. Architectural license perhaps. I don't read it as a definitive statement, but does recognise Riviera as one of the best.
I haven't seen Yale, NGLA and (obviously) Lido so no debate from me at this time.
Regarding Ben's points 3, 4 and 5. I think only the 5th point has to be read as implying cut and fill. It is possible (you imply improbable) that points 3 and 4 only required fill.
If there is any cut into the hill by the #18 green at Riviera, perhaps on the mound that juts into the green at about 7 o'clock (front left) and perhaps the spine running down at 1 o'clock (back right). Perhaps not as well. For the rest of the green and the approach, it appears to my eye that the raising of the green (ie fill) has enabled a softening of the natural hillslope as it blends with the green, rather than a steepening of the slope.
I'll review my pictures on another night and consider my next response. Certainly all of the earthworks and fill at Riviera warrant a discussion of their own. Many of Riviera's classic holes required quite a bit of work (fill) to make them as good as they are.
James B