Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Jordan Wall on July 29, 2007, 12:21:05 PM
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Recently I got into a conversation about golf courses with a guest at work.
She was a member at Shoreacres, and we got to talking about Raynor and his some of his courses. However, talking about Shoreacres intrigued me a lot. The course runs through natural ravines and has some highly original holes, as I have heard, even though the course does have some templet Raynor holes.
For a while I was intrigued by the course looking at Ran's old review. Recently, the review was updated with new pictures and write ups, and now the course intrigues me even more. Blind shots, shots over ravines, a cool looking version of the road hole, and other cool features. The second hole looked pretty cool too, seemingly quite dauning to a back pin.
Having already talked with a couple people about the course, wonder if others have anything to add about the place.
How does it difer from other Raynor courses?
Are his template holes (especially the par-3's) at Shoreacres some of his best?
Is Shoreacres one of Raynor's most original courses?
Being in the same area as Chicago Golf Club, are these perhaps the two best Raynor courses within 100 miles of each other?
Simply put, for me the course looks really cool and intriguing. I would love to hear some other thoughts.
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Jordan
I share your interest in Raynor's work at Shoreacres. I hadn't noticed that the profile on the club had been updated until you mentioned it so I thank you for that.
Growing up in Illinois but having never had the pleasure of Shoreacres, I have these questions for those who have seen the course first hand...
I've read about the prodigious templates and unique holes at Shoreacres. Which as a group contribute more to the greatness of the course?
How does the course at Shoreacres compare to another Raynor course designed at about the same time that I know little about other than Ran's review - Camargo Club? Which of these courses has the more desirable set of par threes?
Located in one of the most storied golfing cities in America how would you rank Shoreacres architecturally against the remainder of Chicago's finest works?
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Jordan:
We have done consulting work at Shoreacres for 12-15 years now.
What I like the most about it is that there are enough natural features to make some interesting holes in addition to the usual templates. The short par-4 11th and the par-5 15th are two of the best holes on the course, and neither is a hole that I've seen on any of Raynor's other courses [though it's possible that the 15th is some adaptation of Raynor's Prize Dogleg]. Their Redan hole is also unique -- it looks awkward but it works quite well.
Kyle:
We also consult at Camargo and the two courses are fairly comparable. Camargo is at a bit larger scale, it takes up more property and the ravines are bigger and deeper and there are some hills (whereas the bulk of Shorecares is on a relatively flat plateau intersected by ravines). I think that Camargo has the better set of par-3's by a shade, but I'd rank them the same overall.
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Interesting to look at the updated pictures, it gives a lot more detail than the older ones did. Even before Shoreacres really intrigued me and I thought stood out as unique to other courses profiled. Some of that may be that we've seen some other Chicago area courses on TV multiple times whereas Shoreacres remains a mystery to the outside for the most part.
One thing I'll go ahead and post. I was playing with a couple fellows a couple weeks back and we were talking about golf courses as these fellows had played most of the top courses in the USA. I asked them what course in the top 100 they felt was most overrated and one of them said Shoreacres. I was really surprised by that. It did not dim my interest in it, but does anyone else that has played the course share that view?
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That guy probably likes courses that are hard. One thing I'll say, for now, is that there is no doubt in my mind that Shoreacres is by far the easiest course on anybody's Top Anything list that I, personally, have played.
To me, though, that is not necessarily a bad thing. It's probably a very good thing. Not every great course has to beat your brains in. The beauty of Shoreacres is in its breezy flow and its throwback character, not its challenge. Yes, there are challenging shots. But there are simply fewer than most Top ___ courses.
Very well said. Shoreacres is easy....very easy. Modern equipment has made the par 5 on the course medium-length par 4s.
That being said, for reasons I can't put into words, it is the finest golf course I have ever played. I don't know exactly why I love it so much....I just do.
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Haven't played, but it does have a great entrance -- a long, winding drive past the first few holes. I'm guessing this is one of the prettiest courses to play in the fall.
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That being said, for reasons I can't put into words, it is the finest golf course I have ever played. I don't know exactly why I love it so much....I just do.
I agree 100%. I don't think a tee time at CPC, PV or AN would give me the morning butterflies as much as one at Shoreacres does. There is something magical about the place.
CPS
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Thanks gents for the responses. Sounds like a very cool place based on your descriptions and the photos. Reminds me a little of a couple shorter quirkier very fun places that I've played, maybe on a bit grander scale.
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I'd say Shivas puts it about right. I can't say it's the greatest course I've ever played, but it is a neat place.
The Redan is a big hole. The back right mound really stares at you, and a ravine on the left is a death sentence if you pull hook your attempt at the back left flag.
The Biarritz has a huge, huge green.
The short hole is interesting, it's like a small push up green but down into a ravine.
I thought the road hole was pretty uninspired, but not a bad hole.
The most interesting holes to me were 2, 11, and 13.
And most odd of all, especially given its name, there are no holes on the shore, even though there could have been
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Shoreacres is a very cool golf course and it lets you play your game. We played with an asst. pro who carried the ball 300 yards and he did well but still needed to take care to be in the right spots. He spoke of a round with JB Holmes who tried to drive the 13th hole (yes over the ravine). He did dive over the ravine a bit to the right but did not make birdie.
I love the 2nd hole too. Its a microcosm for just how well Raynor took the natural features the land had to offer and to build great holes from them template or not. Same with 15.
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#2 looks like a crazy good hole. I would love to try and get close to a back left pin there.
What about 15?
Ran seems to admire that hole in his review.
It definitely looks original.
Any thoughts on the hole, which for facts sake is 520 yards long, a good distance for half par.
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I found the fairway obstacles on 15 pretty easy to avoid on the second shot. It looks good. A high handicapper might have to deal with them, but it would just be an uneven lie from fairly close to the green if I recall. It's plenty wide
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Shivas,
It still looks awesome right.
;D
Maybe I'll play the course with nothing but my irons. I hit my 3-iron about 220, so that would be perfect!
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Shoreacres might be one of the top 10 courses in the US to play until the day you drop
This is an interesting and for me appealing statement about the course. What other courses would you consider similar in this aspect?
Also, no one has mentioned much of anything about the greens. Can anyone chime in on the contours, undulations and pace of the greens? It seems from the pictures that many of them would have a variety of pin placements that would challenge the golfer.
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Is Shoreacres one of those "easy par, hard birdie" courses? I always say that I like more challenging courses, but not every course needs to be a Carnoustie. I have no problem with courses that are challenging because you have to think about where you are putting the ball if you want to set up a good look at birdie, but give you a lot of leeway off the tee and on your approach and still allow par. Its just a different type of challenge compared to one that makes you really work for a par to make up for a misplayed shot.
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Is Shoreacres one of those "easy par, hard birdie" courses?
No, all the par 5s should be (very well could be) birdied by anyone carrying a handicap under 8.
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I meant other than those. I consider any hole that I'm going to have a mid iron or less to after a decent drive as a par 4, regardless of what the scorecard says.
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Interesting to look at the updated pictures, it gives a lot more detail than the older ones did. Even before Shoreacres really intrigued me and I thought stood out as unique to other courses profiled. Some of that may be that we've seen some other Chicago area courses on TV multiple times whereas Shoreacres remains a mystery to the outside for the most part.
One thing I'll go ahead and post. I was playing with a couple fellows a couple weeks back and we were talking about golf courses as these fellows had played most of the top courses in the USA. I asked them what course in the top 100 they felt was most overrated and one of them said Shoreacres. I was really surprised by that. It did not dim my interest in it, but does anyone else that has played the course share that view?
Many of the people I know in Cincinnati feel the same way about Camargo, which is interesting to me since Tom said he would rate them about the same. I've never played SA but have played Camargo roughly 10 times and walked it several others caddieing for a friend in the Am Qualifier. I don't think I've ever gotten the course so I'd probably fall into the camp of it being overrated.
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Is Shoreacres one of those "easy par, hard birdie" courses?
No, all the par 5s should be (very well could be) birdied by anyone carrying a handicap under 8.
At 520 yards, is #15 the shortest par-5 on the course?
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Is Shoreacres one of those "easy par, hard birdie" courses?
No, all the par 5s should be (very well could be) birdied by anyone carrying a handicap under 8.
At 520 yards, is #15 the shortest par-5 on the course?
Jordan,
The card listed on their website (http://www.shoreacres1916.com/scorecard_guests.php) shows the following for the par 5s:
#1 - 516
#15 - 521
#18 - 552
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If anyone has ever played Shoreacres and then Chicago GC in short order on the same trip, the contrast between the intimacy of Shoreacres and the expansive prairie at Chicago is amazing. Also, at Chicago, the template holes seem to stand out, while at Shoreacres it is the originality of 11, 15, and a few others that does. Also the air conditioning.
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I think you will find the 6 holes, 10 thru 15, as one of the fine continuous run of holes.
We should also think of Shoreacres - built 1916 thru 1921 - as well as most of the courses of the Old Dead Guys, in the context of the time they were built.
At Shoreacres I think you will find the 6 holes, 10 thru 15, as one of the finest continuous run of holes.
This is one of my personal favorites - a terrific routing on a property filled with streams and ravines.
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Was Shoreacres considered easy when it opened?
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I wouldn't say that it's exactly easy now. When I was there in May, the rough was pretty difficult. But it is not a ball buster like some of its neighbors
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George, the best players were only carrying the ball less than 200-yards at the time.
Would that be like playing the course using a 4 or 5 iron off the tee today?
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John, I didn't mean to imply anything negative. I simply find it interesting - and kind of sad - that courses likely played much harder when they opened than now. It bugs me when someone says an older course is too easy.
I seem to recall some folks feeling NGLA was almost too tough when it opened. Now many seem to characterise it as a fun, quirky course next to its more stern neighbor.
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I understand George. But with your posts and some of the others, especially Ryan's, I think people might get the wrong impression about Shoreacres. It has plenty of challenge for most any golfer
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Having been privledged to play Shoreacres multiple times, I can defenitly say it is one of my favorite courses hands down.
SA has a very unique feel to it right when you turn down the drive, you see slight glimpses of what is to come but not much, as well as maybe 150 yard practive area
You really feel a great sense of history on these grounds, while everything is very nice, it is very understated as well, you are here to play golf. While you get a slight look at Lake Michigan you wont see it until after your round is complete.
While I think there are some very interesting holes on the front, #2 for example is a tremendous appraoch, with obvious trouble on the left, this is where the ravines start to come into play.
The 5th hole green is one of the toughest and is folowed by one of the most massive greens that I have encountered. The swail in the middle can cause much frustration as I have seen 4 and even 5 putts from opposites of the pin location.
As everyone has stated here and as most say the course really shows itself from the 10th-15th holes. The 10th hole can be a real roller coaster, very true to the road hole, where right is jail.
The 11th in my opinion is one of the most intimidating tee shots on the course. If you play safe to avoid right you can have a very long approach over the ravine again to a very shallow green, and go too far right and almost hope you dont find your ball as the approcah is almost 100 feet uphill and completly blind.(Over the ravine again!)
12 is a great one shot hole. Put it on the green and make your par. Put it off and chances are better than not of making bogey.
The tee shot on 13 is very intimidating as it is almost complety bnlind and up hill over the ravine. While it is not a long hole yyou really need to place your tee shot in the correct position. With the treess butting out on the left one wants to go futrther right which does little help for the second shot
14 is a very classic looking redan hole with a mound behind the green that can spit your ball almost anywhere, and most times right back down to the bunkering in front. This is a very special hole.
As many have stated here 15 is a great par 5. While the drive is not the threating part of the hole, the next two shot decisions defenitly are. If you lay up a bit off you can find yourself with a very ackward lie which is actauly unusual for this relativily flat course
while 16, 17 and 18 are somewhat overshadowed by the previous stretch this is an oppoortunity to to breathe a bit and have a good round in, finishing with a terrific and accessable par 5, provided you hit a good drive
The ravines are what make much of this course what it is , while they dont all come into play they do give the player a sense of where you don't want to put the ball. The green complexes are very different from hole to hole, and while many are not very undulating, they can run fast.
To play Shoreacres on a crisp Fall afternoon with the sun coming off of Lake Michigan has been of the true highlights in my life and I would be honored to play it anytime.
Regards,
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Shivas,
Thanks for the write up and way to go on 15 :D . Judging by the cubs game on tv it looks like it was a beautiful day along the lake.
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If the course plays so easy with current clubs maybe it makes sense to go to 1980's equipment to increase the shot making challenges and show the true architecture of the course?