Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: John Kavanaugh on July 12, 2007, 08:49:52 AM
-
It is my contention that any serious golfer should be able to afford one round a year at a great course for $150. He should also play at least 40 times per year at either a home club or various other courses. Eat some food, drink some beer, etc. etc.. So, who is this guy, how much does it cost and what can we do to help him?
-
I would say that there is a big difference between a serious golfer and "the masses".
-
Wow, I'm not a serious golfer by John K.'s standards :'(. I guess I'll be getting some strokes when/if we ever happen to play in a match. ;D.
What are the 2 most precious resources for anyone John? Time and money, and golf requires them both in spades. I personally am trying to figure out how to remain (become?) a "serious golfer" without breaking the bank for either of them. And I agree with Taylor that the masses and serious golfer have almost no intersection.
Cheers,
Brad
-
I fit that profile pretty well. It costs about 2 grand a year in green fees, throw in another $500 for food and miscellaneous costs.
-
By this definition, this is the first year that I will be on track to be a serious golfer since college. But I've already been warned by my wife, that my current fascination with the game will be severly curtailed at the first opportunity. :D
-
I know it is hard to get out to play so I will consider the desire to play 40 times a year as the same. One point of this thread is to find out why people don't play as often as they want and to change that.
I think you do need to make an investment in the game to qualify to opine on it.
-
The course I joined in Cincy (Ivy Hills designed by Smyers) is very cheap. My monthly dues are about $250 per month. This year I've already posted 50 rounds althought not all at my home club. That's a pretty reasonable price. The only extras are a range fee of $250 and a men's golf association fee of $45. If I played anywhere near that many rounds at public courses it would cost much more and take much longer to play. There are at least two courses, and I'm pretty sure several more, that are public but offer a one-year "membership" for around $2,000. One is a nice Greg Norman course 10 minutes from my house. I did the one year thing there one year. It's pretty ahrd to make golf much more affordable than those options.
-
Why should a serious golfer be compelled to pony up $150 or not be considered serious? I know and play regularly with a bunch of retired teachers. They are all serious golfers. Most of them play north of 75 rounds in a 5 month season. Several of them would find it rediculous to spend 150 on golf. One guy in that group I know is a flat out wizzard. I'd kill for his game. He does go once a year to Myrtle Beach with his pals, but I know that aside from the expense they incurr to get there and F&B etc, he isn't about to pay more than $75 to play golf.
I think more serious golfers should refuse to pay more than 100 for a round. If they are the masses, make the market come to them... 8)
-
Posted by: John Kavanaugh
One point of this thread is to find out why people don't play as often as they want and to change that.
Why people don't play as often? Marriage, young kids, money.
How to change that? Get divorced and neglect your kids.
or...
Build more fun and challenging 9 hole courses. Less time and less money.
-
John,
Am I correct in assuming that the person you are describing in your original post is “one of the masses”? Because I think the masses aren’t nearly that serious – the masses applies more to the guy who plays once or twice a month at a public course.
I consider myself to be a relatively serious golfer (although I always try to have fun when I play)/ I average about 1 round a week thanks to the constraints of work, and also try to get away for at least 1 trip per year where golf is either a major or minor component.
As for cost, I don’t know if it’s more or less expensive in the UK but I would guess lower knowing what I do about initiation fees etc in the US… Excluding holidays I reckon golf subs, food, drink etc at my club cost me approx £3,000 per year which I consider to be fantastic value for money.
-
I know it is hard to get out to play so I will consider the desire to play 40 times a year as the same. One point of this thread is to find out why people don't play as often as they want and to change that.
I think you do need to make an investment in the game to qualify to opine on it.
I think Brad's post addresses the first part of your statement quite nicely, and I'd value his opinion on any course he's played over yours any day of the week. Although, for someone who is not short on opinions, you don't seem to offer a whole lot of specific discussion on golf courses, preferring to stick to broader issues - not that there's anything wrong with that.
To each his own. It's up to each reader to determine the value of each post, not some arbitrary standard that you or anyone else chooses to create.
-
Posted by: John Kavanaugh
One point of this thread is to find out why people don't play as often as they want and to change that.
Why people don't play as often? Marriage, young kids, money.
How to change that? Get divorced and neglect your kids.
or...
Build more fun and challenging 9 hole courses. Less time and less money.
Wow Michael, you just read my mind. When both parents have to work to make ends meet for their family, free time is at a premium. My playtime has suffered dramatically, mainly because of how I refuse to commit 6+ hours to an 18 hole round of golf on a weekend if I want to play regularly at one of the local public courses. If an interesting 9 hole course existed nearby, I'd be far more inclined to play before or after work. I've found that playing 9 holes at an 18 hole course is not an ideal solution for the situation for several reasons. Unfortunately, I have my doubts about the financial feasibility of architecturally interesting 9 hole golf courses, but I'd like to hear more opinions on this topic.
Cheers,
Brad
-
Why can't golf courses have a "free day" where they ask for a donation but don't require it, the way museums do?
I know at least one that does, but the donation ($10) is required, and it all goes to charity.
-
I had a discussion about something along these lines with Doug Braunsdorf the other night.
The Penn State Golf Courses offer a membership with unlimited play for one of, or both golf courses at a reasonable price, around $1100 for use of both courses unlimited, advance tee times, pro shop rebate (20%), a say in the board and $200 are earmarked off the top to go back into the golf courses. Guests also receive a discounted green fee.
PSUGC is very forthright with availability and most of the regulars there play 3-4 times a week.
The idea seems to be able to provide a small, easily maintained and interesting golf course with little to no overhead.
-
If I was a golfer and I lived in an area where there were zero choices for cheap, reasonably decent, fast paced golf courses I would either move or give up playing and take up bowling.
Of course, I don't believe that there are more than one or two areas in the U.S. like that. I do believe that if you are as committed to playing as the business is to providing you places to play, then you'll find a way to make you, your spouse, your kids and your employer happy.
-
unfortunately golf in ireland (where i moved to 8 years ago) is a completely different proposition to golf in scotland (where i'm from)... it is far more expensive to be a club member and it takes more time and energy to get to that club if you live in the dublin area...
i would consider myself a fairly serious golfer but am at the time of life where young family makes this difficult to maintain...
i play maximum once a week during the summer months plus maybe two w/ends where i sneak an away trip with three or four rounds, usually on serious courses... it costs me about €1,200 in club membership and possibly another €1,000 on other green fees plus probably another €1,000 on hotels, petrol and food...
approx total = €3,200 for maybe 30 to 35 rounds a year...
-
I agree with the statements that have been said as it pertains to family. My wife and I both work and we have two children under 10 so time constraints is by far and away the hugest deterent. In addition as I have a huge selection of quality courses all for under $50, paying more than that is doing something out of the ordinary if not "special".
That being said, something that has worked great for us, is the early morning, crack of dawn round. During the summer months I can often tee off at 6'ish, be the first out, get a quick 18 hole round in and be home by 10 when the kids and wife have only been up for a hour or two. And then we still have the rest of the day for family activities, chores, or otherwise.
I do think however 40 rounds is not your "average" output for the masses-type golfer. Even getting in just 20 rounds per year would mean playing 3 rounds per month almost 7 months out of the year.
-
Why can't golf courses have a "free day" where they ask for a donation but don't require it, the way museums do?
Because then they'd be crowded with screaming kids and crying babies and nobody would want to go there. Seriously, have you been to the Field Museum on a free day lately?
-
Posted by: Kalen Braley
That being said, something that has worked great for us, is the early morning, crack of dawn round. During the summer months I can often tee off at 6'ish, be the first out, get a quick 18 hole round in and be home by 10 when the kids and wife have only been up for a hour or two. And then we still have the rest of the day for family activities, chores, or otherwise.
Kalen, I used to do this as part of a regular group for a couple of years and this is the first summer I stopped.
Yes we were the first ones out on a weekend. Yes we were home by 10:30-11am.
But I absolutely hated it. 1) 'Carts required' policy on every public course on weekends before noon or whatever time deprives from the enjoyment of "golf" experienced when walking. 2) Ridiculous 'weekend greens fees with cart'.
I understand that it works, and sometimes it's either that or nothing. But dagnammit, I had to take a stand. I get out twilight hours weekdays and weekends......and sometimes on weekend mornings with my friends who are most concerned with how many beers they can stuff into their bag.
For John K:
And actually, I think the pevious sentence above is the type of golfer who best represents the masses. They play 10-20 times a year, beer and cigars during the round, don't know the names Macdonald, Dye, or Doak and think I'm a snob because I do, mulligans off the tee when two groups are waiting right behind them...the list goes on and on.
-
Michael,
Sorry to hear about the mandatory cart issue and inflated green fees.
Come to Northern Utah. Only two courses I know of have mandatory carts, and everywhere else is usually $30 or under to play 18 holes on the weekend, :D ;D
-
I love how you guys talk about finding a nine holer with interesting architecture. Why not just find some interesting friends instead. The architecture becomes secondary and you can save your studying for GCA outings. I'm a member of a 200 member $480/year nine holer that lets you hit all the shots if you play often enough...4000 courses just like it littered across the county..and I mean littered.
If you are concerned about ignoring you kids why not think about how your dad raised you. If you turned out ok then stop all this traveling around to watch them play meaningless games they only play because they want to please you and take some time for yourself. You will both be happy and you might even live long enough to see your grandkids.
If your wife is not worth spending time with then don't..other guys already know better and she has no where else to go.
Play the very best course you can afford not the course you want to play.
Never pay extra to play with people you like but always pay double to avoid those you don't.
-
Why can't golf courses have a "free day" where they ask for a donation but don't require it, the way museums do?
Because they don't let people drink beer, drive vehicles and carry 14 metal implements with both blunt and sharp edges shooting projecticles in random directions without security personnel inside the Shedd Aquarium on their "free day".
You get them to let people in free under those circumstances and see what the condition of it is by the end of the day. I'll lay $100 there's a great white swimming the Chicago River by sunset ;D
-
I love how you guys talk about finding a nine holer with interesting architecture. Why not just find some interesting friends instead. The architecture becomes secondary and you can save your studying for GCA outings. I'm a member of a 200 member $480/year nine holer that lets you hit all the shots if you play often enough...4000 courses just like it littered across the county..and I mean littered.
If you are concerned about ignoring you kids why not think about how your dad raised you. If you turned out ok then stop all this traveling around to watch them play meaningless games they only play because they want to please you and take some time for yourself. You will both be happy and you might even live long enough to see your grandkids.
If your wife is not worth spending time with then don't..other guys already know better and she has no where else to go.
Play the very best course you can afford not the course you want to play.
Never pay extra to play with people you like but always pay double to avoid those you don't.
LMAO...
Important safety tips from Barney when considering a day on the links... ;D
I would disagree on the 1st point though. I prefer a course with nice architecture playing with strangers over a bland course playing with my friends....
But maybe I'm just weird that way. Obviously playing a nice course with friends is the ideal... ;)
-
John,
I think Thoreau wrote, " The mass of men (or in this case, golfers) live lives of quiet desperation."
Bob
-
Sir Boab, was that an economic or social comment... or just psychological evaluation? ;D
-
John,
I think Thoreau wrote, " The mass of men (or in this case, golfers) live lives of quiet desperation."
Bob
Bob,
It was a quieter sport back when gentlemen played.
Kalen,
I do play a ton of great courses each year but the only reason I lace them up is because besides poker and Golfclubatlas, golf presents a captive audience of friends obligated through time and habit to not walk away when they see me coming.
-
Hmmm, this talk of gentlemen, rudeness and rabble...what does everybody think of the Swedish / German model -- and I don't mean Elin / Heidi.
-
If we set up our business models under the premise that all of our members play 40 rounds a year, that would be too aggressive. Do you have some that play far more, yes. To play in excess of 40 rounds/year, you generally would be playing two days a week for 20 weeks (average season here in the northeast is 25 weeks), minus any vacation time, business travel, etc. Most members here are members so they can get out to play on Saturday and Sunday mornings during peak golf season. Play really drops off, except for the die hard golfers, once football season (college and professional) really rolls into gear.
Except for the time I was between jobs, I have never played 40 rounds in one year....15-20 is average. I consider myself a dedicated golfer, but with work, a 10 year old who plays softball/lacrosse and a wife that I would not like to divorce, that is about the limit.
-
I put off golf until I reached a point in my life when I had the time and money to really enjoy it. That took me 46 years (until I got both kids into college). I've been playing 2 years now and play about 10 rounds per month, 12 months per year (still working full time). I easily spend $4000/yr playing public courses only (nearly all with 4*+ GD Mag ratings), working in a few pricey courses each year on vacation.
That said, I don't think how often you play has anything to do with how serious you are about golf. There are plenty of serious golfers who may not have the time or money to even play once a week, but certainly would if they could.
For the "time starved" golfer, we have a Men's night league that plays 9 holes every Tuesday night at 4pm. For many of these "serious" golfers, that's all the golf they get in all week.
-
Why can't golf courses have a "free day" where they ask for a donation but don't require it, the way museums do?
Shorty's in Bandon. Every day that it is open.