Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Greg Tucker on August 31, 2002, 03:38:31 AM
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:)
Just read the review of Lookout Mountain Golf Club by Brad Klein. I have been able to play a few Raynor courses and enjoyed them all. I live in the Atlanta area and thought that It might be worth the drive up to Chattanooga to see it. Any comments would be helpful.
Thanks to Sports Illustrated for introducing me to this site! :) :)
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Greg:
Lookout Mountain is definately worth the trip.
I played there this spring and I enjoyed it tremendously.
You should check it out! :)
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Greg:
Worth the trip? What trip? Depending on where you live in the Atlanta area you can get to Lookout Mountain easier than you can get to some places in Fulton County.
Brad Klein says the course is good. What else do you need to know? My experience has been that if Brad gives a course a 6 or higher, you can be sure that it is worth a two-hour drive.
Actually, I may like the course even more than Brad. He seemed to be bothered by the clubhouse and the fact that some trees along the perimeter block views. I don't give a hoot about the clubhouse and I didn't drive to the top of the mountain for the view. My understanding is that some of the offending trees are on property that does not belong to the club. If you are determined to get a view, there are several places you can pull off the road and see forever.
The golf course itself is a real treat to play. If you (or anyone else) can get an invitation to play, it is worth the trip from a lot further than Atlanta.
Jim
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One of the attributes of Brad's column is that it is logically laid out and if you disagree with his final assessment, you can generally pick back through the article and determine why the two of you come to a different conclusion.
In the case of Lookout Mountain, I place it a notch or two higher than Brad. Where we disagree are:
1) Ease and intimacy of routing - Brad gives it a 5. Though noting the green to tee walks are short, he cites some steep walks and awkward slopes. Even with the down and then way up 7th, I have never been fatigued in the slightest on any of my several walks around the course and consider it an invigorating place for a walk. As Bahto says, routing may well be Raynor's greatest strength as an architect and Lookout is no exception - I would give it a 7.
2) Natural setting and overall land plan - Brad gives it a 4, in part because of the modern clubhouse and truncated views off the mountain. As the clubhouse is only in the background of the 12th and 18th holes, I wouldn't penalize the course to the degree of a "4". Plus, many of the trees that block views aren't on the club's property, and thus they can't fell them, which though a pity, doesn't detract from the work that has been done of the grounds. Again, I would give it at least a 7.
3) Brad gives the set of one shotters a "6" in large part because he found the Eden hole "very disappointing." Though not a pretty hole, the 16th is the only Eden green in the world that is as severe as the original and for that (and for the fact that hole plays well in that it is amazingly pivotal match after match), I harbor kinder thoughts toward the hole, and thus the set in general. An extremely good set of holes highlighted by the Short hole.
4) Brad gives the two three shotters a "4". Yes, the 14th green needs to be restored but I think the "NASCAR" bank on the 10th is a great piece of routing (i.e. I can think of no better use of that feature of the property). I would give them a 6.
Overall, Brad is complimentary in that he says the course deserves serious consideration for inclusion in the US top 100. He gives the greens and their surrounding contours a "10" and the integrity of the design a "9". I agree with all that but would unhesitatingly place it at least above the 20-30 courses at the bottom of GolfWeek's Classic 100 list.
To my mind, I have it just behind Holston Hills as the 2nd finest in the state, which puts Lookout slightly ahead of The Honors Course. More importantly, with its location atop a mountain, it is surely one of the 3/4 most unique courses in the southeast, and anyone would delight in getting to know this course.
Cheers,
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Ran:
Actually, Lookout Mountain is in Georgia, not Tennessee.
So where would you rate it in that state?
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One of the things I love about this site is that guys, like Ran, can openly disagree. Nice counterpoint - very helpful to the readers.
Paul, don't you have a young babe to look after? Get back to diapers, lest Carol get stuck doing all of the new housework on your hands.
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Great to see that Lookout Mountain is being played, debated, but most of all, appreciated!....Raynor's long-lost final course is coming into its own reputationally....
All I can add is this: if anyone can tell me of a harder 6,450yd course in America, I would love to know about it....given wind, bunkering, demand for precision in shotmaking and putting, sloping lies, and a host of blind bunker shots...Lookout may now be what it was intended by Raynor and the course's developers intended it to be in 1925....the best championship golf course in the South, and one of the best in the country.
For Gowf,
King Oehmig
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Lookout Mountain sounds and looks FANTASTIC. I would sure love to see it someday.
But Mr. Oehmig, if you want to see a harder course at that same yardage, go west young man.
LM: 72.0 rating / 129 slope / 6485 yards from tips.
Pasatiempo GC, Santa Cruz, CA: 72.6/139/6439.
I just point this out in the spirit of good fun and provincialism.
TH
California Boy
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King,
Stewart Saltonstall just returned from playing there and handed me his scorecard. Now, if Stew can card a 90 how hard can it be? ;D
Great logo!!
Jim Kennedy
Hotchkiss
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King:
Welcome to GCA! Hope all is well with you.
Lookout Mountain hasn't really gotten its due, in my book, and I would encourage all you gca'ers to try to make it a point to check it out when you get near Chattanooga!!
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Tom,
Go east young man?
As in Merion (East), 6482/73.6/142. (I've been scarred by getting beaten up there repeatedly, so I've got it in my head that it's the hardest course on earth. Pasatiempo hasn't gotten me yet [knocking on wood repeatedly as I type])
;)
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I think mention needs to made that the Brian Silva restoration is not finished just yet. Superintendent Mark Stovall is doing a wonderful job recapturing lost green space and cutting down trees that encroach on lines of play and site.
Like Ran, I was neither offended by the clubhouse nor burdened by the walk, but some of the trees that have since been removed, drove me crazy.
King, is there now a B&B on the mountain in which guests are allowed access to Lookout?
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Chris B - great call re Merion - I was going to mention that myself as the champion of all in this discussion if I was pressed - just went with the "home" course first. Well done.
TH
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THANK YOU
People are starting to learn more about Ranyor's lost course on the mountain. I worked there the past year and I have seen a lot changes in just one year; the bigest being that the tees were lasered leveled. Also the carts paths have been removed in certain areas on 15 and the cath part along the 18 tee was shorten. As plans for the 14 green I know Mark Stovall is trying to rebuild the green and I'm pretty sure that they are going to start work this fall.
As for the trees and property around the course there are houses to the right side of holes 5 through 8 which block the view of the valley but still you can see the valley on holes on almost all the other holes beside these four.
The greens are FAST and they are almost impossible to read. When the Setup guy has to go out and putt to see where the pin can be placed just proves how difficult it is to two putt
sometimes.
Here is the website for the course www.golflmgc.com
I try to get on just a minute ago but the site is down.
I have more pictures of the course and I will try to post them in the next few days to come.
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Mike:
Would love to see the pictures!
The Raynor restoration is moving along well.
First, Scott Wicker did a great job, and now Mark Stovall is continuing with the good work.
Keep it up - you're moving Lookout in the right direction!
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Why is this 6,450 yard course so tough?
Two obvious reasons are, like Merion, Lookout Mountain has only two three shot holes for the big hitters to try and beat up on and its greens feature severe slope/wicked hole locations. For instance, being above the 5th or 16th hole locations is the south's equivalent of being above the hole on the 12th or 15th at Merion, with disaster closely following.
Also, like Merion, Lookout Mountain's shorter holes aren't throw aways. In this case, Raynor used the shortest par fours (the present day 3rd and 12th holes) to climb sharply uphill and thus, the short iron wedge shots are no cinch in trying to get them tight to most any of the hole locations. Same for the uphill wedge to the three shot 14th green.
Most obvious of all, Raynor's Short hole with its eighteen foot drop offs to the right and behind is a short iron play where even the best ignore chasing certain hole locations and settle for par.
Thus, while a glance at the card might suggest that the shortish 3rd, 6th, 12th and reachable 14th are reasonable birdie holes, in fact, they play much harder.
Add in the sloping fairway lies and the usual breeze coming off the mountain to the other beefy holes and you have a test on your hands - and more interestingly, the makings of a cult course, a true "links in the sky."
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Can anyone explain why Lookout's original name, "Fairyland" was never or isn't being used?
???
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I think "Fairyland" was the name of the development, planned town, also since changed to simply Lookout Mountian, but I dont know that it was ever associated with the Golf Club was it??
If not maybe it should have been.
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The original Raynor layout drawing is titled Fairyland...
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Some guy must have lost a bet to have it named Fairyland, and later went double-or-nothing to avoid the lifetime of harrassment.
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Maybe Raynor was gay, so like Michael Jackson's Neverland, Raynor's Fairyland ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hopefully TE Paul will not see this...otherwise he'll have Raynor and Emmet as gay lovers. From what I understand TE is currently conducting detailed architectural research at a number of bathhouses in NYC.
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As John state Fairyland was the name of the club as printed on first layout. I don't know the exact reason why the club was name fairyland but I have a idea as to why. For all those who have been to Chattanooga most of you have likely been to Rock City. Some yes ,some no. Rock City is located on Lookout Mtn and its big thing is that you can see "seven states" from Rock City but it is also has rock gardens and caves that has displays and scenes from fairy tell characters from childrens books such as snow white, Jack and Jill, Mother Goose, etc. I believe this has to go back when lookout mountain was develop. It is a small city that sits over 2,000 ft above chattanooga with rocks and caves that make it the great place for a young child to grow. Almost as if it was a fairly tale.
Here is the web address for Rock City for those who care to check it out.
www.seerockcity.com
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I have to hand it to TE Paul. I'm not sure which I found more surprising, Dev Emmett is gay, or Tom Wolfe is not.
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The Fairyland Golf Club (pronounced fairland) became Lookout Mountain in an interesting manner.
One of their members, the redoubtable Jack Lupton, stepped off a private jet in London one day. A porter took one look at Mr. Lupton, who was wearing a Fairyland Golf Club sweater and said: "I see that they have golf clubs for your kind now".
I am told that the name was changed before Mr. Lupton returned to the States.
Lookout Mountain was built with the intent to have the Clubhouse directly behind what is now the second green. The finish was intended to be two long and difficult par four holes. With the Clubhouse on its' present site the finish is not the best face that can be presented (two short par fours) but these holes are preceded by two of the toughest holes in the game # 15 and #16.
The only real problem with the course , in my estimation is the 14th green which is too seerly sloped to create any pinning positons in the front half of the green.
Lookout is marvelous and the conditions that have been maintained by Mark Stovall are superb.
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Greg,
How do you get to the Golfweek review? Website?
CHC
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Am I correct that Lookout Mountain will be the site of the 2005 Seth Raynor Society Annual Meeting. I am trying to get my 2005 schedule put together and I had to miss last years event. I don't want that to happen again. Are the dates set yet?
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I had heard the meeting was going to be in May or 05...I badly wanted to go but then was told I was ineligible because I am not a member of a Raynor course....Is this so...
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Seth Raynor was gay?!? :D
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Ran- I wonder if the GW points system, awarded to each category, isn't a bit mis-leading.
For my own clarification as well; The GW system attributes points based on that aspects placement within all of the courses in the country. So a "4" for land plan and setting, isn't the same as lets say a Doak Scale 4. It just means that aspect of the criterion, isn't as highly placed relative to the entire group, as say the land plan and setting of a CPC. And to further clarify, one low number doesn't necessarily effect the overall rating of the golf course.
On the Fairyland name story. I find it believeable. Heck, we use to call my sister dychie, that was until one day popular nomenclature reached my father, and we were told not do that anymore.
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DEVEREAUX Emmett, SETH Raynor-those could be gay names now that I think about it. I'm more shocked that Tom Wolfe is straight.