Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: JeffTodd on March 20, 2007, 10:57:59 AM
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Mr. Doak lists his fourteen favorite links courses in the current issue of T&L Golf. I don't recall seeing this story posted and I thought it would be of interest to many in the group.
T&L Golf (http://www.travelandleisure.com/tlgolf/articles/golf-true-links/)
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You really have to question Doak's cred including Bandon Dunes on the list. I can agree with his own courses because I am sure they are worthy but really...Bandon Dunes as one of the great links courses in the world? Maybe I'm just a cynic but...
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Oh John, you do like to cause trouble don't you?
My point was that there are very few courses in America which could credibly be called "links" and that the two in Bandon had as good a case as any. It certainly would've caused more angst if I'd listed Pacific Dunes and not Bandon Dunes.
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I actually saved the issue after reading it. I thought it was a great read and enjoyed the observations including a few I disagree with. I totally agree with the content and context of the Bandon courses discussion. Spring is almost here in Indiana and John K aka Barny Frank will be in a better mood when he can go out and play golf.
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I think Pacific is a solid course that deserves to be on the list, if it is your list or not. I just got the feeling at Bandon that it was a bit too USified around the greens to be links.
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I don't know if the list is in any particular order of Tom's preference, more likely it's geographical, but I do love the high placement of North Berwick's West Links. One thing I love there is that the beach is in play, versus Crail where it's out of bounds. There isn't anything much more fun than playing a full iron shot off the hard sand over the berm to the second green after a major push off the tee! 8)
I am excited about playing both North Berwick and the Old Course next week....and also a first ever visit to Lundin Links.
Tom, was Muirfield not included because it's not a links course, or because you don't favor it as highly as the others? A week from today will my first experience there and I will have a chance to see for myself! ;D
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I have never played Bandon Dunes, I would like to make the point of saying that from the photos i've seen it looks like some less well known Irish or Welsh courses.
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I have never played Bandon Dunes, I would like to make the point of saying that from the photos i've seen it looks like some less well known Irish or Welsh courses.
I would say that explains why they remain less well known.
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I have never played Bandon Dunes, I would like to make the point of saying that from the photos i've seen it looks like some less well known Irish or Welsh courses.
I would say that explains why they remain less well known.
No mainly because of the coure's location and the fact that they were not done by a well known GCA.
There is lots of 'Gems' in Donegal but they will get better known when Tom D does his work there.
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Now you've made me curious.
If you allow the courses at Bandon to be used as examples of American links courses then couldn't you cite Sand Hills in that catagorie?
I guess what I'm really asking is: Strictly speaking is there a definitive difference between inland dunes and dunes by the sea?
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Bill:
I love Muirfield, but I didn't think it made a lot of sense to rehash a bunch of courses on the Open rota. Heck, it would have been easy to make a list of 25 links courses I love. Geographic diversity was one of the main criteria.
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...
I guess what I'm really asking is: Strictly speaking is there a definitive difference between inland dunes and dunes by the sea?
Yes, it's called "the sea". :D
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Thanks Garland,
I was wondering how long that one would take.
Seriously though, it has probably been discussed here before but if so I missed it.
I can imagine there are differences in wildlife and vegetation but that could be said when you compare a coastline in Australia or South Africa to the UK as well. So if we are talking about layers of natural vegetation and turf over sand, can you compare inland dunelands to seaside ones? What am I missing?
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Links are land between the sea and the farmland beyond the dunes. The sea is integral to the definition of links.
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OK I get it.
So it is like..... even though they are both considered hues, red is not green by definition.
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Links are land between the sea and the farmland beyond the dunes. The sea is integral to the definition of links.
Here is another quote in a similar vein:
Donald Steele, a well-known modern English architect and author of Classic Golf Links of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, defined "links" this way"
"My definition of links is the strip of land which links the sea with more fertile land, often set amongst dunes. The best terrain for golf is sand and that kind of land has minimal agricultural value -- which makes such places ideal."
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Phil,
The second portion of that definition seems an apt decription of the Sand Hills area.
I know I know..... green is not red.
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In the case of Bandon, we have the presence of the sea, albeit from clifftops rather than the traditional low-lying linksland. However, as Doak says: "...alluvial deposits from the Coquille River are blown back ashore to create a sandy paradise for American golfers."
It's fine to split hairs, but the nature of the turf and the shots you can play around the greens at Pacific Dunes make it worthy of inclusion in my book. With certain factors (f&f, wind, a rugged natural setting) in place, "links" becomes a state of mind in my opinion....I definitely think the Bandon courses have an intensity of links feeling that I haven't always had at a few technically "true links".
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When reviewing the list, everyone should note that this is a list of the Tom D's "favorite" links courses, not necessarily a list of the ones he thinks are the "best" links courses. There is a difference between favorite and best.
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Tom Dunne - I'd agree with you. But of course Paul is asking a relevant question also. By the technical definition, neither Bandon Dunes nor Pacific Dunes is a links. And if you are going to go beyond that definition, then why does Pacific Dunes qualify and others not?
Because if you want to base it on "the nature of the turf and the shots you can play around the greens", then Sand Hills most definitely qualifies.. as does Wild Horse near it....
TH
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Phil,
The second portion of that definition seems an apt decription of the Sand Hills area.
I know I know..... green is not red.
I think the operative phrase is "strip of land which links the sea with more fertile land." All trues links courses are on said "strip of land."
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TH:
Oh, it's a great question, I agree. I've never been to Nebraska, but my understanding is that the sand hills were the sea floor before the beginning of our very-happy Cretaceous period raised the Rockies some 70 million years ago.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Cretaceous_seaway.png)
So...land reclaimed from the sea!
Anyway, I don't think I'd be shaking an indignant fist if Mr. Doak had offered up Sand Hills. It would be a stretch, sure, but I'm confident that a round there would trigger more positive links endorphins for me than a "true" links like, say, Harlech.
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Tom Dunne: of course Pacific Dunes is close to the sea, and I unbelievably do get what Tom Doak meant about alluvial deposits blown up from the river. But still, it is a stretch of the normal definition.
Love that graphic about what our continent looked like once though! So of course Sand Hills is even more of a stretch....
So if there are shades of gray in this, well.... PD is a hell of a lot grayer than Sand Hills!
I can just understand also if someone wants to make it black and white... and if so, neither counts.
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Well, according to that map Rock Creek is a links, too.
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Mr. Doak lists his fourteen favorite links courses in the current issue of T&L Golf. I don't recall seeing this story posted and I thought it would be of interest to many in the group.
T&L Golf (http://www.travelandleisure.com/tlgolf/articles/golf-true-links/)
Jeff,
Thanks for bringing this article to the forefront. The geographic variances that Tom has provided are vast and I envy the fact that he has witnessed so many!
As a true fan of links golf, some of the courses listed by Tom I could play every day; including Dornoch, Ballybunion, St. Andrews and Berwick. If I am ever fortunate enough to travel to some of the other destinations he has mentioned, I am sure that I will have further "favorites."
As far as Tom listing Bandon, why not? I have never had the pleasure to play it, but why not blow his own horn a bit. Tom is entitled to list his "favorites" just as we are able to list ours.
Guy
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Sean - understood completely. I'm guess I'm just also trying to get across that if the line is drawn very firmly in keeping with the normal definition of "links", then neither Bandon nor Pacific would count, and of course Sand Hills wouldn't either. If you want to broaden it a bit to include cliffs about the ocean, then of course Bandon and Pacific count. But if you base it on how the course PLAYS, then Sand Hills would also.
It is good news that courses that are like this are being saved, recognized, built, etc. though... they are the best of what golf can be. Or at least I think so.
TH
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I liked the article and have no prob w/ Tom including PD.
I especially took note of Zandvoort (sp?) Tom, what are some other great LINKS in continental Europe? Any in Germany France or Belgium that you like? Italy?
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I just got the feeling at Bandon that it was a bit too USified around the greens to be links.
What does this mean?
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Jay:
The only links I have seen are Haagsche and Kennemer in Holland and Le Touquet in France, and I didn't get to play any of those at the time. I'd love to get back. I suspect the best links in Europe is either Royal Zoute, Noordwijk, or Falsterbo, but until I get a summer off, I won't be able to answer that question.
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Tom,
I can't speak to Zoute or Falsterbo, but I preferred both Kennemer and Haagsche to Noordwijk.
Frank Pont's got a ton of good pics of all three, obviously, but Noordwijk has some gorgeous open links holes and then stuff like this:
http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/Holland/Noordwijk%201/pages/Noordwijk%20Mei%202005%20053.htm
Without clogging up the thread too much, there's another par-three on the back nine that offers this (similarly claustrophobic) look:
http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/Holland/Noordwijk%201/pages/Noordwijk%20Mei%202005%20094.htm
For sheer memorability, diversity of holes and plain old fun, my money's on Haagsche's wild terrain all the way. But all three courses do seem to have their proponents, and all are far from perfect. There are much worse ways to pass a long weekend than moving up the North Sea coast to play these three, though!
Really hoping to catch Zoute at some point.
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I just got the feeling at Bandon that it was a bit too USified around the greens to be links.
What does this mean?
This means that with the defined fringes and subtle large breaks the greens at Bandon Dunes look like they could be on any parkland course in the U.S.. I just think the greens at Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails tie into the surrounding land or fairways in a way that is not common in the States...without a fringe and all that is.
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I thought the T&L article was well reasoned and well written. Unlike most of these travel book articles, I actually learnt a couple of things reading this list.... even though Tom's reasoning about leaving out the Open rota courses might have made more sense if:
a) He mentioned it in the article.
b) He left out the course that has hosted the most Open Championships. (Although I guess that would be like asking Lou Duran or the like to discuss the modern conservative movement without mentioning Barry Goldwater.)
I did find Tom's comparison of Pebble Beach and NSW as cliff top courses to be curiously off-base. While I would agree with his assessment that neither course is a true links, the playing surfaces, grasses and elevation changes make them as disimilar as two world class courses looking out on a common body of water can be. (Of course Tom is not exactly the only person who mentions these two in the same sentence. I got so tired any question starting, "So Anthony, you lived in California, how much is this course like Pebble... " that I donated a copy of 'Alister Mackenzie's Cypress Point' to the NSWGC Library and referred them to the book.)
Also the reason why more world class seaside/links courses have not been built on the Australian mainland is not entirely due to the lack of suitable land... there are literally hundreds of square miles in the areas between Lake Macquarie and Nelsons Bay, including the whole Myall Bay area that fit the definition of linksland to a tee.
Until very recently, however, there was neither the population or a person with the vision or capital to build the kind of course that would make this list. With the Macquarie Bank/Greg Norman juggernaut in full swing, the sad and inescapable fact is that should an opportunity arise in this area, GWS's name would be more likely to move the surrounding $500,000+ building sites than a Tom Doak course.
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I just got the feeling at Bandon that it was a bit too USified around the greens to be links.
What does this mean?
This means that with the defined fringes and subtle large breaks the greens at Bandon Dunes look like they could be on any parkland course in the U.S.. I just think the greens at Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails tie into the surrounding land or fairways in a way that is not common in the States...without a fringe and all that is.
John,
Aren't the fringes more of a maintenance issue than a design issue? Have you played links golf in the UK or Ireland? I'm just wondering about the basis for your comparison.
BTW, Bandon Dunes does sort of remind me of Donegal Golf Club (Murvagh). You wouldn't nominate Murvagh as a great golf course, but I had a great time playing it.
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Are there any good links courses in Denmark? I seem to remember the article mentioning there are sand dunes and golf there....
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I was happy to see that he included RND and Kennemer. I was pleasantly surprised when I played Kennemer last year. RND is on land that is unlike any other links course and has some holes that are absolutely one of a kind. It is not everyone's cup of tee but it is a throwback to an earlier time and for as weemingl easy as it seems, when you add up the score you wonder, "I thought I played better."
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...RND is on land that is unlike any other links course and has some holes that are absolutely one of a kind. ...
Hi Tommy,
Please educate the ignorant amonst us.
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Any decent links golf course has holes that are "absolutely one of a kind." RND's charm is in its goofiness.
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Garland,
RND = Royal North Devon.
(There really should be a GCA.com course acronym appendix.)
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True or false?
The land in the Sandhills of Nebraska looks (and plays) the way it does because there was once a sea there.
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Tom,
I knew that. And, what Rich wrote makes absolute sense. I went to the club website and looked at the pictures which were not very illuminating.
Now all I need to know is the quirkyness from "Pete Dye's demented uncle" and his use of railroad ties.
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Who here has played Granville and La Mer? What do you think?
(Rich, glad to have you back, btw.)
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...RND is on land that is unlike any other links course and has some holes that are absolutely one of a kind. ...
Hi Tommy,
Please educate the ignorant amonst us.
Royal North Devon has a number of idiocyncracies. Holes Four-sevenare played over ground that is more like an ocean of heaves, bumps, and waves. Holes 10-13 are in the great sea rushes. I have not seen them on any other course. The a six or seven foot high spikey grass that could spear an old gutty. The most unique feature, I think, are the greens complexes. I am not certain how to even describe them. They are raised in a way but only as the ground around them moves. They are brilliantly bunkered complete with sheep foot prints and. The first and last holes are played over wet ground that hardly ever dries out. It may havae the shortest par five in the country. It is about 440yards. The problem is not reaching the green it is gettin on the green. It is a raised green the moves like a wave on ground. I have been on the fringe and hit what I though was a good chip that ends up in a bunker.
You must like barnyard animals because there are plenty of them. At least sheep and horses. There is a local rule that allows the player to move a ball that is in sheep shit or horse manure. I usually try to get my partner to move the ball for me.
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Any decent links golf course has holes that are "absolutely one of a kind." RND's charm is in its goofiness.
I couldn't say it any better.
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Thanks Tommy!