Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Matthew Hunt on December 09, 2006, 09:47:08 AM
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Everyone on GCA seems to critise GDs rankings.
I think we should do our oiwn Rankings. Althought this is not the best Method, Everyone Picks their Favortite 12 courses in the world in order. The points are as follows:
1st:15
2nd:12
3rd:10
4th:9
5th:8
6th:7
7th:6
8th:5
9th:4
10th:3
11th:2
12th:1
Athogh this is not the best system it will give u aGeneral outline what a better list would be like.
Post your vote below.
Closing date Dec 20th (Rankings will be done for Xmas)
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Heres my Vote
1st: Sand Hills
2nd:RCD
3rd: NGLA
4th:St Andrews
5th: Augusta National
6th:High Pointe
7th: Pine Valley
8th:Muirfield
9th:The E Club
10th:Apche Stronghold
11th:The K Club
12th:Kilkeel
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Mathew..I hope you don't mind but for criteria of best architecture I am going to use where I played the most rounds in 2006...Minimum 36 holes. Not easy finding 12 courses where I have played at least 36 holes in one year. I think this is a valid criteria for greatness based on the Pat Mucci theory of wanting to return to the first hole. In the event I have played more than 36 holes at any one course the nod goes to the course with most rounds played.
note: My list was deleted because it was found that I am a member of most clubs posted.
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Mathew,
Did you play both Apache Stronghold and The K Club...Love the ranking of AS above KC..
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Donald Trump just text messaged me his ballot.
1. Trump course NY
2. Trump course NJ
3. Trump course FL
4. Trump course CA
5. Trump course Sotland
6. Trump course NY reverse
7. Trump course NJ reverse
8. Trump course FL reverse
9. Trump course CA reverse
10. Trump course Sotland reverse
11. Wing Foot West because I'm a member
12. Wing Foot East because I'm a member
Now I'll give my own list some thought.
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John
I have not played most of these course but I am letting everyone choose their own criteria and mine is the course I could play in the morning if I got a chance
Matthew
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Matthew:
I will submit something for you just so you can process a result and see how strange the results would come out with a system like this.
No one should hold me to these votes as absolute, I've just taken the "10"s from The Confidential Guide and put them in some kind of order for Matthew:
1-St. Andrews
2-Pine Valley
3-Royal Melbourne (West)
4-National Golf Links
5-Sand Hills
6-Cypress Point
7-Royal Dornoch
8-Shinnecock Hills
9-Crystal Downs
10-Ballybunion (Old)
11-Merion (East)
12-Muirfield
I was tempted to put Pacific Dunes somewhere in there but didn't.
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This is my list of the twelve courses in order that I would most want to play again (and I think they are great):
1. NGLA
2. RCD
3. ANGC
4. Pine Valley
5. Merion
6. TOC
7. Cypress Point
8. Royal Dornoch
9. Camargo
10. Woodhall Spa
11. Friars Head
12. Winged Foot (West)
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1. Pine Valley
2. Teeth of the Dog
3. Woodhall Spa
4. TPC Sawgrass
5. Dornoch
6. Bethpage Black
7. Rolling Green
8. Muirfield
9. Royal County Down
10. Sunningdale Old
11. Pacific Dunes
12. Winchester CC
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1. Cypress Point
2. NGLA
3. Pine Valley
4. Sand Hills
5. TOC
6. Pacific Dunes
7. Oakmont
8. Merion
9, Shinnecock
10. Victoria National
11. The Country Club (composite)
12. Wade Hampton
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1. Pine Valley
2. Merion
3. Dornoch
4. Ballybunion
5. Pebble Beach
6. Pacific Dunes
7. Prairie Dunes
8. Turnberry
9. SFGC
10. Ballyneal
11. TOC
12. North Berwick/Eastward Ho! (tied)
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So, we're going to create a list that doesn't even require that we've seen and played said courses? Ugh......
1) My favorite course close enough that I can play often...
2) My 2nd fav course close enough that I can play often...
3) My 3rd.....
At the end of the day, what good is a list if you can't go play and enjoy the courses?
Joe
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I've included only courses that I've played or seen first hand more than once at tournaments. The list shows my bias for links golf and geographic limits. The bottom third of the list is just some of my personal favorites and will probably appear on very few other list.
1. Portrush
2. Shinnecock
3. ANGC
4. Bethpage Black
5. County Down
6. St. Andrews
7. Ballybunion
8. Pacific Dunes
9. Pinehurst #2
10. Doonbeg
11. The Ocean Course
12. Sea Island Seaside
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Here goes:
1. Ballybunion
2. Royal Lytham
3. Ballyneal
4. Sand Hills
5. Pacific Dunes
6. Royal Cinque Ports
7. Royal Liverpool
8. Pennard
9. Royal Portrush
10. Crystal Downs
11. Lahinch
12. Turnberry Ailsa
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1. CPC
2. Pine Valley
3. NGLA
4. Sand Hills
5. TOC
6. Shinnecock Hills
7. Royal Melbourne (West)
8. Crystal Downs
9. Seminole
10. Augusta National
11. Pinehurst #2
12. Pac Dunes
# of total rounds on the above? 0
Based off my reading/viewing on this site. By my own admission, too biased towards US..
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I have played at least 36 holes on each of the following
1. Royal County Down
2. Cypress Point
3..Pine Valley
4. Merion
5. Oakmont
6. Crystal Downs
7. Ballybunion Old
8. St. Andrews Old
9. Sunningdale Old
10. Royal Birkdale
11. Winged Foot West
12. Royal Dornoch
unfortuantely I have not played Augusta.
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BTW I hope you are a better mathematician than I am. My tally would be very suspect. ;D
I am also not sure it will be a better list, just a different list from a bunch of folks that seem on the whole to have similar tastes. The results might be a bit tainted if people choose courses they have not played. Reputaion and expectation don't always walk in the same pair of pants as reality.
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I'm going to limit mine to courses that I've played, if you haven't played or seen the course in person....how can it be a favorite????
1. Sand Hills
2. NGLA
3. Merion
4. Kingsley Club
5. Crystal Downs
6. Friars Head
7. Winged Foot West
8. Garden City Golf Club
9. Myopia Hunt Club
10. Piping Rock Club
11. Old Sandwich
12. Boston Golf Club
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1. Royal Dornoch Golf Club
2. Royal County Down
3. Cypress Point
4. Pinehurst(No.2)
5. Pebble Beach
6. Royal Portrush
7. St. Andrews(Old)
8. Fishers Island
9. North Berwick(West Links)
10. National Golf Links of America
11. Bandon Dunes
12. Bethpage(Black)
I'm sure Pine Valley, Augusta, Crystal, Ballybunion, Sand Hills belong on the list, but I haven't played them so I can't add them.
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Only listing those I've played so a UK/Australia contribution;
1. TOC
2. Royal Melbourne (West)
3. Royal Dornoch
4. Sunningdale (Old)
5. Woodhall Spa
6. Royal Cinque Ports
7. Metropolitan, Vic
8. Muirfield
9. North Berwick (West Links)
10. Royal Adelaide
11. Royal Melbourne (East)
12. Rye
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Only courses that I've played, 2 rounds or more.
1) Sand Hills
2) Merion
3) Turnberry Alisa
4) The Ocean Course
5) Greywalls
6) Whistling Straits
7) Arcadia Bluffs
8) Burnham and Berrow*
9) Tobacco Road
10) Palmetto
11) Aiken CC (Highland)
12) Royal St. Kitts
*Ok this was only 18 with an extra nine. I just liked it a lot.
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Joe,
C'mon have a little fun. You need to come on down and have some fish cancun to loosen you up ;D
Haven't played them all..most of 'em, but I still think they are the best.
1. The Old Course
2. Pac Dunes
3. PV
4. RCD
5. Royal Mel. West
6. Kingsley Club
7. Pac Dunes
8. Cypress Point
9. NGLA
10. Muirfield
11. Sand Hills
12. Wolf Point Club (it's my list)
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Limited to courses where I've played at least 36 holes.
1. Pine Valley
2. Pinehurst#2
3. Teeth of the Dog
4. Bethpage Black
5. Whistling Straits
6. BCC Five Farms
7. The Ocean Course
8. Tobacco Road
9. WWPB
10.Cascades
11.Bulle Rock
12.Aldarra
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Limited to courses where I've played at least 36 holes.
1. Pine Valley
2. Pinehurst#2
3. Teeth of the Dog
4. Bethpage Black
5. Whistling Straits
6. BCC Five Farms
7. The Ocean Course
8. Tobacco Road
9. WWPB
10.Cascades
Jesse,
Please explain your list to me.
Last time we played I got the impression Longaberger would have been at least top-5 that you've played
???
;D
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I do not get many chances to play private courses and limit my public play to 2 figure greens fees. I have played at least 36 holes at each of the following and would travel to play them again.
1. Lawsonia Links (Green River WI)
2. Dancing Rabbit - Azaleas (Choctaw, MS)
3. Capstone Club (Brookwood, AL)
4. Cobblestone (Acworth, GA)
5. Annbriar (Waterloo, IL)
6. Dancing Rabbit - Oaks
7. Shaker Run (Lebanon, OH)
8. RTJ Capitol Hill Links (Auburn, AL)
9. University Ridge (Madison, WI)
10. Nob North (Cohutta, GA)
11. Spencer T Olin (Alton, IL)
12. The Frog (Villa Rica, GA)
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My list...
1. The Golf Club (New Albany, OH)
2. Wolf Run GC (Zionsville, IN)
3. Blackwolf Run GC--River (Kohler, WI)
4. The Kingsley Club (Kingsley, MI)
5. Crystal Downs GC (Frankfort, MI)
6. Point O'Woods GC (Benton Harbor, MI)
7. Paa-Ko Ridge GC (Sandia Park, NM)
8. Harbour Town GL (Hilton Head Island, SC)
9. Black Mesa GC (Espanola, NM)
10. Whistling Straits GC (Sheboygan, WI)
11. Long Cove GC (Hilton Head Island, SC)
12. Crooked Stick GC (Carmel, IN)
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My list:
1) Pine Valley
2) Royal Dornoch
3) NGLA
4) Pacific Dunes
5) North Berwick
6) Bethpage Black (pre-renovation / restoration / abomination)
7) Shinnecock (1995 Open Set-up / fairway widths)
8. Bandon Dunes
9) Myopia Hunt Club
10) Bandon Trails
11) Spyglass Hill
12) Pinehurst #2
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Here's my list based on how I feel this evening. Only includes courses I've played.
1. Pacific Dunes
2. Sand Hills
3. Ballyneal
4. Pinehurst #2
5. Banff Springs
6. Bandon Dunes
7. Wild Horse
8. Yale
9. Bandon Trails
10. Whistling Straits
11. Newport National
12. We-Ko-Pa
Based on Kavanaugh's criteria, this would be my list:
1. Sand Hills
2. Ballyneal
3. Wild Horse
4. Wintonbury Hills
5. Legends - Ropers Knob
6. Greystone GC
7. Forrest Crossing
8. Orgill GC
I think that's the entire list of courses where I played more than once in 2006.
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Joe,
C'mon have a little fun. You need to come on down and have some fish cancun to loosen you up ;D
The Fish Cancun and three Negra Modelo's......that's all the "loose" I can handle.....but, you can guess what I'm really looking forward to when I get there Wednesday.....that's right.....Fish Cancun and three Negra Modelo's.... ;D
Make sure the trailer is "stocked", won't you? I prefer "sqeezably soft" over the kind with the cute bears......
I'll make up a list once I get down there....if I must.....
Joe
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Matthew,
For the sake of YOUR best interests, this thread is going to be eliminated. The only reason why I'm leaving it up is so you can read this.
26 posts and your setting up a GCA rating team? I don't think so!
Now go do something more constructive, like pick up Architectural Side of Golf and read it, Try to find out what inspired Bill Coore to take up golf architecture....
BTW, the Golf Digest ratings are an abomination, thus further showing just how badly Golf Digest's knowledge of golf courses really is. If your a Golf Digest Panelist, I suggest either resigning out of disgust or simply lerning something to take back to your colleagues in great hopes they can become better panelists.
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Matthew:
I was tempted to put Pacific Dunes somewhere in there but didn't.
That's because you would have had to put Apache Stronghold ahead of it, and you can't do that in it's current state of condition... ;)
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Given that I haven't seen much in the US:
St. Andrews (Old)
Muirfield
Royal County Down
Royal Dornoch
Royal Melbourne (Composite)
Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin)
Royal Birkdale
Royal St. George's
Ballybunion (Old)
Carnoustie (Championship)
Royal Portrush (Dunluce)
T. Sunningdale (Old)
T. Kingston Heath
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Mainly GB & I
Royal County Down
Royal Dornoch
Pebble Beach
Turnberry
Royal St. Georges
Ballybunion (Old)
St. Enodoc
Sunningdale (Old)
Carnoustie
Formby
Enniscrone
Sunningdale (New)
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Matt,
Is this list to be based on architecture or just the course?
Thanks!
JT
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Matthew,
For the sake of YOUR best interests, this thread is going to be eliminated. The only reason why I'm leaving it up is so you can read this.
26 posts and your setting up a GCA rating team? I don't think so!
Now go do something more constructive, like pick up Architectural Side of Golf and read it, Try to find out what inspired Bill Coore to take up golf architecture....
BTW, the Golf Digest ratings are an abomination, thus further showing just how badly Golf Digest's knowledge of golf courses really is. If your a Golf Digest Panelist, I suggest either resigning out of disgust or simply lerning something to take back to your colleagues in great hopes they can become better panelists.
Tommy,
The thread has only been going for a day and a half. Before you know it, this thread might have 150 responses.
I would also like to remind you that no matter how passionate your beliefs are, course ratings are a subjective game.
Following John Kavanaugh's suggestion that we only include courses we've played will lead to a list biased against courses with restrictive policies. I'd really like to see this exercise completed to see the results.
Here's my list, based upon a less than complete examination of the great places to play:
1. Pacific Dunes
2. Royal Dornoch
3. Merion (East)
4. Ballyneal
5. Sand Hills
6. Bandon Trails
7. Kinloch
8. Bandon Dunes
9. Pasatiempo
10. Kingsley
11. Riviera
12. Pebble Beach
Very tough for me to place courses after the first two. There are another 5-10 courses that could easily fit into the 6 through 10 slots. But these are the ones I want to have represented, as I am an advocate for modern design.
If I could name courses I haven't played, I would include Royal Melbourne, Cypress Point, Shinnecock Hills, and St. Andrews (Old), and probably Oakmont and Royal County Down. Oh, and Pine Valley, too. Still have some work to do.
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1.Pine Vally 75pts
2.NGLA 72
3.St Andrews Old 65
4.Merrion 58
5.Sand Hills 56
6.Royal County Down 43
7.Winged Foot (East)41
8.Cypess Point 40
9.Royal Dornach 30
10.Ballybunion 27
11. Crystal Downs 27
12. Pacific Dunes 26
13. Muirfield 25
14. Augusta National 21
15. Victoria National 18
17. Royal Melbourne 16
18. Shinnlock Hills 16
19. Oakmount 14
20. Ballyneal 13
21. Woodland Spa 13
22. SFGC 13
23.Teeth of Dog 12
24. TPC at Sawgrass 9
25. Kingsby Club 9
26. Hoylake 8
27. Royal Cinque Ports 8
28. Bethpage Black 8
29. Machrihans 8
30. High Pointe 7
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Matt, Tommy,
I don't see any harm in this excercise and I am curious what the outcome will be, but I agree it cannot be even close to scientific. Along with what has already been mentioned about the subjectivity of the criteria, you have the problem of different views on importance of the various criteria, as well as the fact that everyone will have a different list of courses they have played.
I for one, am not a member anywhere so my course selection will look very different than one who is tied in to the east coast private clubs, and that list will be very different than our freinds from the west coast or overseas.
In the end however, I think it will still be interesting to review and debate the results.
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I guess I am pretty boring as I have only two courses that I have played at least 36 holes on this year.
Here they are ranked in the order in which I would prefer to play them.
Orchard Hills, Washougal, WA
Black Mesa
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List up to Post #19
1 NGLA 75 pts
2. Pine Valley 75
3.St Andrews Old 71
4.Merrion 58
5.Sand Hills 56
6.Royal County Down 55
7.Royal Dornach 55
8.Cypess Point 50
9.Winged Foot (East)41
10.Ballybunion 27
11. Crystal Downs 27
12. Pacific Dunes 26
13. Muirfield 25
14. Augusta National 21
15. Victoria National 18
17. Royal Melbourne 16
18. Shinnlock Hills 16
19. Pebble Beach 16
20. Oakmount 14
21. Ballyneal 13
22. Woodland Spa 13
23. SFGC 13
24.Teeth of Dog 12
25. Portrush 11
26. Pinehurst #2 11
27. TPC at Sawgrass 9
29. Kingsby Club 9
30. Bethpage Black 9
31. Hoylake 8
32. Royal Cinque Ports 8
33. Bethpage Black 9
34. Machrihans 8
35. High Pointe 7
36. Sunningdale Old 7
37. Sandwich 7
38. French Lick 6
39. Turnburry (Alisia) 6
40. Parrie Dunes 6
41. New South Wales 6
42. Pennard 5
43. Garden City GC 5
44. Fishers Island 5
45. The European Club 4
46. Camargo 4
47. Senione 4
48. Apache Stronghold 3
49. Royal Birkdale 3
50. Peeping Rock 3
51. The K Club 2
52. Lahninch 2
53. The Country Club 2
54. Kilkeel 1
55. North Berwick 1
56. Winchester GC 1
57. Boston Golf Club 1
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This certainly brings a new twist to the ranking game!
Bethpage Black is no. 30 and 33.
I think that Pebble Beach should move up to no. 7 and 9 on the next version of the list.
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Matthew,
I don't get it but do my eyes decieve me?? Are you failing us in the same way all the other rating lists do??
You seem to be cherry picking the results. I have not dug into the gory details yet but there appears to be some spin going on here. There are a few courses out there that got equal ratings with Boston GC. You have also omitted Tobacco road which got a few higher placed votes.
Are you going to make me sit down and really grind through this list or are you going to explain this to me and everyone?
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List up to Post #26
1. St Andrews Old 101 pts
2. Pine Valley 100
3. NGLA 79
4.Sand Hills 73
5.Merrion 70
6.Royal Dornach 65
7.Royal County Down 64
8.Cypess Point 55
9.Winged Foot (East)41
10. Pacific Dunes 38
11. Royal Melbourne(West) 36
12. Crystal Downs 35
13. Muirfield 33
14. Ballybunion 27
15. Kingsby Club 25
16. Pinehurst #2 23
17.Teeth of Dog 22
18. Augusta National 21
19. Woodhall Spa 21
19. Victoria National 18
20. Bethpage Black 18
21. Whistling Straits 17
22. Shinnlock Hills 16
23. Pebble Beach 16
24. Sunningdale Old 16
25. Turnburry (Alisia) 16
26. The Golf Club 15
27. Lawsonia Links (Green River WI) 15
28. Royal Cinque Ports 15
29. The Ocean Course 15
30. Oakmount 14
31. Ballyneal 13
32. SFGC 13
33. Dancing Rabbit - Azaleas (Choctaw, MS) 12
34. Wolf Run GC 12
35. Royal Portrush 11
36. Black Wolf Run GC
37 Capstone Club (Brookwood, AL) 10
38 Cobblestone (Acworth, GA) 9
39. TPC at Sawgrass 9
40. Tobacco Road 9
41. Hoylake 8
42. Machrihans 8
43. GreyWalls 8
44. Annbriar (Waterloo, IL) 8
45. Dancing Rabbit Oaks 7
46. High Pointe 7
47. Sandwich 7
48. Metropolitan, Vic 7
49. Point O'Woods GC 7
50. French Lick 6
51. Parrie Dunes 6
52. New South Wales 6
53. Arcadia Bluffs 6
54 Shaker Run (Lebanon, OH) 6
55. Paa-Ko Ridge GC 6
56 RTJ Capitol Hill Links (Auburn, AL) 5
57. Pennard 5
58. Garden City GC 5
59. Fishers Island 5
60. North Berwick 5
61. Burnham and Berrow 5
62. Harbour Town GL (Hilton Head Island, SC) 5
63. Black Mesa GC (Espanola, NM) 4
64. BCC Five Farms 4
65. The European Club 4
66. Camargo 4
67. Senione 4
68. WWPB 4
69. University Ridge (Madison, WI)
70. Nob North (Cohutta, GA)
71. Apache Stronghold 3
72. Royal Birkdale 3
73. Peeping Rock 3
74. Royal Adelaide 3
75. Palmetto 3
76. Cascades 3
77. K Club 2
78. Lahninch 2
79. The Country Club 2
80. Royal Melbourne (East) 2
81. Spencer T Olin (Alton, IL) 2
82. Long Cove GC (Hilton Head Island, SC) 2
83. Crooked Stick GC (Carmel, IN) 1
84. The Frog (Villa Rica, GA) 1
85. Aiken CC (Highland) 1
86. Kilkeel 1
87. Winchester GC 1
89. Boston Golf Club 1
90. Rye 1
91. Royal St. Kitts 1
92. Wolf Point Club 1
Will be slow updating the rest due to exams. If anyone wants to finish it feel free.
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1. Crystal Downs
2. Ballybunion (Old)
3. Sand Hills
4. Royal County Down
5. Pacific Dunes
6. The Ocean Course
7. Pebble Beach
8. Pasatiempo
9. The Kingsley Club
10. High Pointe
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Oops--forgot 11 and 12
11. Whistling Straits
12. Lahinch
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1. Cypress Point
2. Pine Valley
3. Shinnecock Hills
4. Royal Melbourne(West)
5. Pebble Beach
6. Merion(East)
7. Pacific Dunes
8. Winged Foot(West)
9. Barnbougle Dunes
10. San Francisco GC
11. Ballyneal
12. Riviera
My List is "Have Played."
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From what I have played:
1. Sand Hills
2. Royal Melboune West
3. Ballybunion
4. TOC
5. Lahinch
6. Kingston Heath
7. Pebble Beach
8. North Berwick
9. Prestwick
10. Turnberry
11. TPC Sawgrass
12. Sutton Bay
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1 Prairie Dunes
2 Merion
3 Shinny
4. Old Course
5. Pine Valley
6. NGLA
7. CPC
8. Sand Hills
9. Ballybunion
10. Crystal Downs
11. SFGC
12. Friars Head
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1. Sand Hills
2. Pine Valley
3. Royal County Down
4. St. Andrews (Old)
5. Pacific Dunes
6. Pinehurst (#2)
7. Muirfield
8. Ballybunion (Old)
9. Pebble Beach
10. Merion (East)
11. Prairie Dunes
12. Cruden Bay
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1. Sand Hills
2. National Golf Links of America
3. Carnoustie
4. Sunningdale (Old)
5. Merion (East)
6. Royal St. George's
7. Bandon Dunes
8. Royal Portrush
9. Royal County Down
10. Woodhall Spa
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1) Shinnecock Hills
2) Sand Hills
3) NGLA
4) Friars Head
5) Mayacama
6) The Golf Course at Yale
7) Garden City GC
8) Maidstone
9) Pasatiempo
10) Olympic
11) Winged Foot East
12) Wanamoisett GC
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Only courses I have played or walked. I bet it would be different if I could play any course I would want to see....
St Andrews - Old Course
Royal Dornoch
Shinnecock Hills
Friars Head
Sebonack
North Berwick
Cruden Bay
Riviera
Rustic Canyon
Prestwick
Garden City
Carnoustie
yp
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Matthew,
For the sake of YOUR best interests, this thread is going to be eliminated. The only reason why I'm leaving it up is so you can read this.
26 posts and your setting up a GCA rating team? I don't think so!
Now go do something more constructive, like pick up Architectural Side of Golf and read it, Try to find out what inspired Bill Coore to take up golf architecture....
BTW, the Golf Digest ratings are an abomination, thus further showing just how badly Golf Digest's knowledge of golf courses really is. If your a Golf Digest Panelist, I suggest either resigning out of disgust or simply lerning something to take back to your colleagues in great hopes they can become better panelists.
Tommy, maybe you're right. Let's by all means have more threads of the high intellectual level of "Mac and Mike."
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As I have not travelled extensively as yet, courses in order of 'most wanted'.....
1. Pebble Beach
2. St Andrews
3. Cypress Point
4. Barnbougle Dunes
5. Augusta National
6. Pine Valley
7. Royal County Down
8. Cape Kidnappers
9. Royal Melbourne West
10. Pacific Dunes
11. TPC Sawgrass
12. Muirfield
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1. Prairie Dunes
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It will be quite interesting!
1. Cypress Point
2. Old Course St.Andrews
3. Kingsbarns
4. Ballybunion (old)
5. Shinnecock Hills
6. Highlands (Cape Breton)
7. St. George's (Toronto)
8. Kiawah Ocean Course
9. Sunningdale (old)
10. Maidstone
11. Congressional
12. Turnberry Ailsa/ Pinehurst 2
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OK, what the heck. Here's another list, just off the top of my head.
1. Sand Hills
2. Cypress Point
3. NGLA
4. St. Andrews Old
5. Pebble Beach
6. Royal Dornoch
7. Shinnecock Hills
8. Ballybunion (Old)
9. Muirfield
10. Royal County Down
11. Royal Portrush - Dunluce
12. Carnoustie
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I must reply before the Exterminator (oops, the Emperor) does his dirty work.....
1. Dornoch
2. Shinnecock
3. Pebble Beach
4. Muirfield
5. Birkdale
6. County Down
7. Carnoustie
8. Portmarnock
9. Ballybunion
10. Turnberry
11. Cypress Point
12. Merion
Only of the ones I have played, of course
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Pine Valley
Royal Dornoch
Merion
TOC
Garden City
NLGA
Cascades
North Berwick
The Golf Club
Crail
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North Berwick
Royal Dornoch
Addington
Royal St Georges (walked x2 only)
Pennard
Sunningdale Old
Berkshire Red
Woking
Woodall Spa
Royal Cinque Ports
New Zealand GC
Roses Point
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OK I'll bite.
1. St. Andrews
2. Pacific Dunes
3. Royal County Down (back 9 is better than its' reputation)
4. Ballyneal
5. Royal Dornoch
6. Sand Hills
7. Ballybunion
8. Royal St. Georges
9. Pebble Beach
10. Friars Head
11. Royal Portrush - Dunluce
12. North Berwick (In a different category than the rest but I could play it every day for the rest of my life and never tire of it.)
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I would urge others to contribute at this point. Many of us have stuck our necks out and posted our top 12. This is the closest we've come to a survey, and I suspect the results will be both interesting and reasonable. Of course there will be oddities, but we can analyze that later. There are quite a few of our senior members whose voice should be heard.
Tell us what you think.
Matthew Hunt, I'm counting on you to add these things up. Are you still there?
PS I added 11 and 12 to my list.
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Top Twelve I have played-no order
Pine Valley,Yale,Ballybunion,TOC,N.Berwick,Rolling Green,Merion,Myopia Hunt,Royal County Down,Royal Portrush,Lahinch,Bethpage Black
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1. Namea
2. Merion
3. Seminole
4. Prairie Dunes
5. Cypress Point
6. Indian Creek
7. SFGC
8. FI
9. Swinley Forest
10. Chicago
11. Round Hill
12. Sand Hills
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HBH,
I like how you included Indian Creek, one of my favorite clubs/courses in the world. A very special place and a marvel in golf course construction.
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Help me out, I've never heard of Namea.
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David Kidd course on the big island.
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It's actually 'Nanea'. Hopefully just a typo--doubtful you'd forget the name of your favorite course in the world ;D
Ham,
What about Nanea makes it your favorite?
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This list is short on Aussies so here's some of the favourite courses I've played (Aus/UK)
1. Royal Melbourne West
2. Royal Dornoch
3. St Andrews Old
4. Kingston Heath
5. Woodlands
6. St Andrews Beach
7. Spring Valley
8. Portsea
9. New South Wales
10. Commonwealth
11. Victoria
12. Machrihanish
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I have left Pine Valley off the list because I can't say I enjoyed the fact that I hit 8 greens and shot 93. It's a beautiful place, but missing a green by 5 feet and making a double or triple gets old fast.
1. Cypress Point.
2. Royal Melbourne
3. Muirfield
4. Oakmont
5. Pebble Beach
6. Winged Ft.
7. St. Andrews
8. New South Wales.
9. Pinehurst #2
10. Kingston Heath
11. Kauri Cliffs
12. Royal Adelaide
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Against my better judgement. Many better men than I have already posted their twelves. Only couses I've played. And trying to order these is really quite arbitrary. I'm only sure about #1.
1.Royal County Down
2.Royal Dornoch
3.The Old Course, St Andrews
4.Royal Melbourne West
5.Pinehurst #2
6.West Sussex
7.Walton Heath
8.Ganton
9.Turnberry Aisla
10.Kingston Heath
11.Harbour Town
12.Valderama
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For what it's worth:
1) Muirfield
2) Royal Dornoch
3) Ganton
4) The Old Course
5) Carnoustie
6) Royal Liverpool
7) Alwoodley
8) Hunstanton
9) Royal West Norfolk
10) Saunton East
11) Machrihanish
12) Berkshire Blue
All courses I have played more than once.
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Based purely on the courses I've played:
1. Turnberry
2. TOC
3. Royal Dornoch
4. Royal Liverpool
5. Ballybunion
6. Carnoustie
7. Woodhall Spa
8. Royal Lytham
9. The European Club
10. North Berwick
11. St Enodoc
12= Silloth on Solway/Alwoodley
Couldn't leave either Silloth or Alwoodley out.
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List up to Post #30
1. St Andrews Old 101 pts
2. Pine Valley 100
4.Sand Hills 85
3. NGLA 79
5.Merrion 70
6.Royal Dornach 65
7.Royal County Down 64
8.Cypess Point 55
9. Pacific Dunes 53
10.Winged Foot (East)41
11. Royal Melbourne(West) 36
12. Crystal Downs 35
13. Muirfield 33
14. Pinehurst #2 31
15. Ballybunion 27
16. Kingsby Club 25
17. Ballyneal 23
18.Teeth of Dog 22
19. Augusta National 21
20. Woodhall Spa 21
21. Whistling Straits 20
22. Victoria National 18
23. Bethpage Black 18
24. Shinnlock Hills 16
25. Pebble Beach 16
26. Sunningdale Old 16
27. Turnburry (Alisia) 16
28. The Golf Club 15
29. Lawsonia Links (Green River WI) 15
30. Royal Cinque Ports 15
31. The Ocean Course 15
32. Oakmount 14
33. SFGC 13
34. Dancing Rabbit - Azaleas (Choctaw, MS) 12
35. Wolf Run GC 12
36. Royal Portrush 11
37. Black Wolf Run GC
38. Capstone Club (Brookwood, AL) 10
39. Cobblestone (Acworth, GA) 9
40. TPC at Sawgrass 9
50. Tobacco Road 9
51. Hoylake 8
52. Machrihans 8
53. GreyWalls 8
54. Annbriar (Waterloo, IL) 8
55. Banff Springs 8
56. Bandon Dunes 7
57. Dancing Rabbit Oaks 7
58. High Pointe 7
59. Sandwich 7
60. Metropolitan, Vic 7
61. Point O'Woods GC 7
62. Wild Horse 6
63. French Lick 6
64. Parrie Dunes 6
65. New South Wales 6
66. Arcadia Bluffs 6
67. Shaker Run (Lebanon, OH) 6
68. Paa-Ko Ridge GC 6
69. Yale 5
70. RTJ Capitol Hill Links (Auburn, AL) 5
71. Pennard 5
72. Garden City GC 5
73. Fishers Island 5
74. North Berwick 5
75. Burnham and Berrow 5
76. Harbour Town GL (Hilton Head Island, SC) 5
77. Black Mesa GC (Espanola, NM) 4
79. BCC Five Farms 4
80. The European Club 4
81. Bandon Trails
82. Camargo 4
83. Senione 4
84. WWPB 4
85. University Ridge (Madison, WI)
86. Nob North (Cohutta, GA)
87. Apache Stronghold 3
88. Royal Birkdale 3
89. Peeping Rock 3
90. Royal Adelaide 3
91. Palmetto 3
92. Cascades 3
93. K Club 2
94. Lahninch 2
95. The Country Club 2
96. Royal Melbourne (East) 2
97. Spencer T Olin (Alton, IL) 2
98. Long Cove GC (Hilton Head Island, SC) 2
99. Newport National 2
100. Crooked Stick GC (Carmel, IN) 1
101. The Frog (Villa Rica, GA) 1
102. Aiken CC (Highland) 1
103. Kilkeel 1
104. Winchester GC 1
105. Boston Golf Club 1
106. Rye 1
107. Royal St. Kitts 1
108. Wolf Point Club 1
109. We-Ko-Pa 1
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1-Pine Valley
2-National Golf Links
3-Royal County Down
4-Cypress Point
5-Royal Dornoch
6-Merion (East)
7-Crystal Downs
8-Muirfield
9-St Andrew's (old)
10-San Francisco
11-Pinehurst #2
12-Seminole
I'sn't the flaw in this process access or the economic ability to see everything?
I haven't been to Australia for example, yet I have a pretty good idea RMGC would blow me away.
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1. Pinehurst #2
2. Cypress Point
3. Royal Dornoch
4. Pine Valley
5. Old Course, St Andrews
6. Pebble Beach
7. Waterville
8. Shoreacres
9. Kapalua Plantation
10. Dunes Club
11. TPC Sawgrass
12. Canterbury
It is pretty easy to ridicule the various magazines lists but formulating my own top 12 gives me more appreciation for the inherent difficulty in ranking such a subjective topic.
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1. Pacific Dunes
2. Crystal Downs
3. Shoreacres
4. San Francisco GC
5. Pinehurst #2
6. Lookout Mountain GC
7. Pebble Beach
8. Oakland Hills South
9. Franklin Hills
10. Pasatiempo
11. Olympic Club Lake
12. Bandon Dunes
13. Eugene CC
I have limited my list to courses I have actually played.
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Ari,
I got the impression that you were not a fan of the "restoration" of Franklin Hills. Those are some great courses you have behind it..
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1. TOC
2. Royal Dornoch
3. Ballybunion Old
4. Pebble
5. Muirfield
6. Doonbeg
7. Lahinch
8. Pinehurst #2
9. Tobacco Road
10. Waterville
11. Prairie Dunes
12. Trailee
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Only courses I have played and listed alphabetically,
Chicago GC
Crystal Downs
Cruden Bay
Kingsley
Lawsonia Links
Machrihanish
North Berwick
Pacific Dunes
Pinehurst #2
Royal County Down
Royal Dornoch
The Old Course, St. Andrews
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Ari,
I got the impression that you were not a fan of the "restoration" of Franklin Hills. Those are some great courses you have behind it..
John,
Mostly I am not a fan of calling the work a "restoration" because it was very far from that. Franklin never had steep grass face bunkers and it never had fairway bunkers in many of the places that they are now. I am concerned that with Ron Pritchard going around and adding these steep grass face bunkers to a large segment of the great Ross courses that this will eventually be looked at as a major Ross feature when I do not believe that it really is. With that being said, and after I got a chance to get over the unwanted change, I think the "new" Franklin IS a better plaing golf course than the "old" Franklin. Especially for the better player. (the bunkers are a bit severe for some of the older members) Mainly I think they improved a couple of the weaker holes especially the 17th which was the weak link before. Now it is a nice multi route par 4 with the option of playing safe around the water to the right and having a tough long shot into the green or challenging the pond and some deep bunkers on the drive to have a much shorter shot and better angle into the green. All they had to do was move the tee back 20 yards or so and take out a bunch of trees which opened up the route over the water. They also made the par 5s a little more challenging which was needed and added some width in spots where the trees had grown in a bit too much. A good subtle example is the 10th which they removed trees on the right side, in the rought between the 8th and 10th fwys and moved to the right. This gave the fairway some nice movement and brought some neat natural mounding into play just off the fairway in the right rough. With all respect to Pasi, Olympic, Bandon and ECC I would rather take on Franklin than any of those 4 on a daily basis and that is how I based my ratings for this.
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Bump. I'd love to see the updated totals.
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Bump. I'd love to see the updated totals.
The opening post to this thread said closing date was today (not sure whether US/UK/Aussie time) so we shouldn't have long to wait!!
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Bump
I will finish it soon
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Only courses I have played or spent enough time on to know.
1. TOC
2. Cypress Point
3. Sand Hills
4. ANGC
5. NGLA
6. R County Down
7. Macrihanish
8. Royal Dornoch
9. Rye
10. Turnberry Ailsa
11. Troon
12. St Edonoc
13 N. Berwick
14. Shinnicock Hills
15. Pacific Dunes
15a. Olympic Lake, Champions, Mountain Lake, Oakbourne CC, Bayou Desaird CC, home courses
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1. Shinnecock Hills
2. Merion East
3. Pine Valley
4. The Old Course
5. Sand Hills
6. Royal Dornoch
7. Oakmont
8. Royal St. Georges
9. North Berwick
10. Swinley Forest
11. Indian Creek
12. Kittansett
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I would certainly hope to strengthen this list somewhat while I can still play the game, but in the meantime, these are the best courses I've played in my 54 years:
1. TOC
2. Sand Hills
3. Pebble Beach
4. Hazeltine
5. Somerset
6. Sutton Bay
7. Northland
8. Pasatiempo
9. White Bear Yacht Club.
10. Interlachen
11. Lawsonia
12. Talking Stick North
Clearly, I need to play more on the East Coast, and in Scotland/Ireland, but one needs goals.
Merry Christmas to all.
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My holiday list (wish I could be back at any right now!):
1. Royal Melbourne Composite
2. Sand Hills
3. Cypress Point
4. Pine Valley
5. Royal Dornoch
6. Royal County Down
7. Ye Olde Course
8. Merion East
9. Royal Portrush
10. Shinnecock Hills
11. Ballybunion
12. Prairie Dunes
Rounding out the the top 25...just for the heck of it: Oakmont,
Friars Head, Fishers Island, Muirfield (RCEG), NGLA, Pacific Dunes, Kingston Heath, LACC North, Royal St. Georges, New South Wales
Happy Holidays to all!
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Matthew,
Could you do the tallies? I'd love to see them.
Thanks very much!
Peter
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Below is the latest tally I have had time to do.
Please point out mistakes I may have made.
List up to Post #40
1. St Andrews Old 116 pts
2. Pine Valley 100
3. Sand Hills 93
4. Royal Dornach 86
5.Merrion 80
6. NGLA 79
7.Royal County Down 74
8. Pacific Dunes 68
9.Cypess Point 55
10. Muirfield 45
11. Royal Melbourne(West) 44
12.Winged Foot (East)41
13. Crystal Downs 35
14. Ballybunion 33
15. Ballyneal 31
16. Pinehurst #2 31
17. Woodhall Spa 29
18. Kingsby Club 28
19.Teeth of Dog 22
20. Augusta National 21
21. Whistling Straits 20
22. Victoria National 18
23. Bethpage Black 18
25. Pebble Beach 17
26. Shinnlock Hills 16
27. Sunningdale Old 16
28. Turnburry (Alisia) 16
29. The Golf Club 15
30. Lawsonia Links (Green River WI) 15
31. Royal Cinque Ports 15
32. The Ocean Course 15
33. Oakmount 14
34. SFGC 13
35. Dancing Rabbit - Azaleas (Choctaw, MS) 12
36. Wolf Run GC 12
37. Bandon Trails 11
38. Royal Portrush 11
39. Black Wolf Run GC
40. Capstone Club (Brookwood, AL) 10
41. Royal Birkdale 10
42. Cobblestone (Acworth, GA) 9
43. TPC at Sawgrass 9
44. Tobacco Road 9
45. Hoylake 8
46. Machrihans 8
47. GreyWalls 8
49. Annbriar (Waterloo, IL) 8
50. Banff Springs 8
52. Bandon Dunes 7
53. Dancing Rabbit Oaks 7
54. High Pointe 7
55. Sandwich 7
56. Metropolitan, Vic 7
57. Point O'Woods GC 7
58. Wild Horse 6
59. French Lick 6
60. Parrie Dunes 6
61.Royal St Georges 6
62. New South Wales 6
63. Kinloch
64. Arcadia Bluffs 6
65. Shaker Run (Lebanon, OH) 6
66. Paa-Ko Ridge GC 6
67. Yale 5
68. Bandon Dunes 5
69. RTJ Capitol Hill Links (Auburn, AL) 5
70. Pennard 5
71. Garden City GC 5
72. Fishers Island 5
73. North Berwick 5
74. Burnham and Berrow 5
75. Harbour Town GL (Hilton Head Island, SC) 5
76. Black Mesa GC (Espanola, NM) 4
77. BCC Five Farms 4
78. The European Club 4
79. Carnoustie (Championship)4
80. Pasatiempo 4
81. Camargo 4
82. Senione 4
83. WWPB 4
84. University Ridge (Madison, WI)3
85. Nob North (Cohutta, GA)3
86. Apache Stronghold 3
87. Peeping Rock 3
88. Royal Adelaide 3
89. Palmetto 3
100. Cascades 3
101. K Club 2
102. Lahninch 2
103. Riviera 2
104. The Country Club 2
105. Royal Melbourne (East) 2
106. Spencer T Olin (Alton, IL) 2
107. Long Cove GC (Hilton Head Island, SC) 2
108. Newport National 2
109. Crooked Stick GC (Carmel, IN) 1
110. The Frog (Villa Rica, GA) 1
111. Aiken CC (Highland) 1
112. Kilkeel 1
113. Winchester GC 1
114. Boston Golf Club 1
115. Rye 1
116. Royal St. Kitts 1
117. Wolf Point Club 1
118. We-Ko-Pa 1
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1-Cypress Point
2-Pine Valley
3-NGLA
4-Pacific Dunes
5-Tobacco Road
6-Sand Hills
7-Shinnecock Hills
8-TOC
9-Royal County Down
10-Cape Kidnappers
11-Whistling Straights- Straits
12-Black Mesa
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List up to Post #50
1. Sand Hills 165 pts
2. St Andrews Old 157
3. Pine Valley 132
4. Merrion 110
5. NGLA 108
6. Royal Dornach 98
7. Royal County Down 97
8. Pacific Dunes 90
9. Cypess Point 76
10. Royal Melbourne(West) 65
11. Ballybunion 64
12. Shinnlock Hills 61
14. Crystal Downs 53
15. Muirfield 51
16.Winged Foot (East)43
17. Pebble Beach 41
18. Pinehurst #2 38
19. Ballyneal 33
20. Kingsby Club 32
21. Woodhall Spa 32
22. Sunningdale Old 25
23. Parrie Dunes 23
24. Whistling Straits 22
25. Teeth of Dog 22
26. The Ocean Course 22
27. Augusta National 21
28. Turnburry (Alisia) 19
29. Friars Head 19
30. Victoria National 18
31. Bethpage Black 18
32. SFGC 18
33. North Berwick 17
34. Royal Portrush 16
35. The Golf Club 15
36. Lawsonia Links (Green River WI) 15
37. Royal Cinque Ports 15
38. Oakmount 14
39. Yale 14
40. Bandon Dunes 13
41. Garden City GC 13
42.Royal St Georges 13
43. Pasatiempo 13
44. Carnoustie (Championship) 12
45. Dancing Rabbit - Azaleas (Choctaw, MS) 12
46. Wolf Run GC 12
47. Lahninch 11
48. Bandon Trails 11
49. TPC at Sawgrass 11
50. High Pointe 10
52. Black Wolf Run GC 10
53. Capstone Club (Brookwood, AL) 10
54. Royal Birkdale 10
55. Cobblestone (Acworth, GA) 9
56. Tobacco Road 9
57. Mayacama 8
58. Hoylake 8
59. Riviera 8
60. Sebonack 8
61. Machrihans 8
62. GreyWalls 8
63. Annbriar (Waterloo, IL) 8
64. Banff Springs 8
65. Cruden Bay 7
66. Dancing Rabbit Oaks 7
67. Kingston Heath 7
68. Sandwich 7
69. Preswick 7
70. Metropolitan, Vic 7
71. Point O'Woods GC 7
72. Rolling green 6
73. Wild Horse 6
74. French Lick 6
75. New South Wales 6
76. Kinloch 6
77. Arcadia Bluffs 6
78. Shaker Run (Lebanon, OH) 6
79. Paa-Ko Ridge GC 6
80.Winged Foot(West)5
81. Bandon Dunes 5
82. Maidstone 5
83. RTJ Capitol Hill Links (Auburn, AL) 5
84. Pennard 5
85. Fishers Island 5
86. Burnham and Berrow 5
87. Harbour Town GL (Hilton Head Island, SC) 5
88. Rustic Canyon 4
89. Black Mesa GC (Espanola, NM) 4
90. BCC Five Farms 4
91. The European Club 4
92. Barnbougle Dunes 4
93. Camargo 4
94. Senione 4
95. WWPB 4
96. University Ridge (Madison, WI)3
97. Nob North (Cohutta, GA)3
98. Apache Stronghold 3
99. Olympic 3
100. Peeping Rock 3
101. Royal Adelaide 3
102. Palmetto 3
103. Cascades 3
104. K Club 2
105. The Country Club 2
106. Royal Melbourne (East) 2
107. Spencer T Olin (Alton, IL) 2
108. Long Cove GC (Hilton Head Island, SC) 2
109. Newport National 2
110. Crooked Stick GC (Carmel, IN) 1
111. The Frog (Villa Rica, GA) 1
112. Aiken CC (Highland) 1
113. Kilkeel 1
114. Winchester GC 1
115. Boston Golf Club 1
116. Rye 1
117. Royal St. Kitts 1
118. Wolf Point Club 1
119. We-Ko-Pa 1
120. Sutton Bay 1
121. Wanamoisett GC 1
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Matthew:
I hope you have had fun with this, but the only "mistake" you have made is with your system of voting.
When you tally up lists of people's top tens, the problem is that the least-well-traveled voters give big numbers to odd courses. Panelist A has seen all of the top 100 courses in the world -- he gives Sand Hills 15 points, Pine Valley 12, St. Andrews 10, and none to We-Ko-Pa which has no chance of making his top ten. But Panelist B has not been to any of the top 100 courses, so he gives Talking Stick 15 points and We-Ko-Pa 12, and now both are ahead of St. Andrews!
Your top 20 or 30 courses are going to sound like a good list because they have gotten a lot of top-10 votes, but after that, errors as described above are astounding.
Don't feel too bad. This is essentially the voting system which GOLF Magazine used the first couple of times they ranked the top 50 courses in the world, before I got involved. That's how Royal Hong Kong and Royal Selangor in Malaysia got on their list ... a couple of panelists in the Far East who'd never traveled in the US or UK gave them 15 points.
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Matthew:
I hope you have had fun with this, but the only "mistake" you have made is with your system of voting.
When you tally up lists of people's top tens, the problem is that the least-well-traveled voters give big numbers to odd courses. Panelist A has seen all of the top 100 courses in the world -- he gives Sand Hills 15 points, Pine Valley 12, St. Andrews 10, and none to We-Ko-Pa which has no chance of making his top ten. But Panelist B has not been to any of the top 100 courses, so he gives Talking Stick 15 points and We-Ko-Pa 12, and now both are ahead of St. Andrews!
Your top 20 or 30 courses are going to sound like a good list because they have gotten a lot of top-10 votes, but after that, errors as described above are astounding.
Don't feel too bad. This is essentially the voting system which GOLF Magazine used the first couple of times they ranked the top 50 courses in the world, before I got involved. That's how Royal Hong Kong and Royal Selangor in Malaysia got on their list ... a couple of panelists in the Far East who'd never traveled in the US or UK gave them 15 points.
I think to combat this the final list should be top 50.
This list is an Experement and I hope a full Ratings could follow on.
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Congratulations Tom, you seem to be the most successful architect on the list.
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To keep Mucci off my leg, I'll only list courses I've played - and that I think should be in the world list.
1. Highlands Links
2. St. Georges
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For what it's worth of what I've played (here's my top 25):
#1 - Whistling Straits(Straits)
#2 - Bandon Dunes
#3 - Crystal Downs
#4 - Prairie Dunes
#5 - Pacific Dunes
#6 - Bandon Trails
#7 - Arcadia Bluffs
#8 - Wolf Run
#9 - Whistling Straits(Irish)
#10 - Greywalls
#11 - Pine Needles
#12 - Tanglewood Park (Championship)
#13 - Blackwolf Run(River)
#14 - Oakland Hills
#15 - Kingsley Cub
#16 - Tobacco Road
#17 - Harvester Golf Club
#18 - Victoria National Golf Club
#19 - Eagle Eye
#20 - Olympia Fields
#21 - Golf Club at Redlands Mesa
#22 - Lakota Canyon Ranch and Golf Club
#23 - Forest Dunes
#24 - Wild Horse
#25 - World Woods (Pine Barrons)
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Matthew:
I hope you have had fun with this, but the only "mistake" you have made is with your system of voting.
When you tally up lists of people's top tens, the problem is that the least-well-traveled voters give big numbers to odd courses. Panelist A has seen all of the top 100 courses in the world -- he gives Sand Hills 15 points, Pine Valley 12, St. Andrews 10, and none to We-Ko-Pa which has no chance of making his top ten. But Panelist B has not been to any of the top 100 courses, so he gives Talking Stick 15 points and We-Ko-Pa 12, and now both are ahead of St. Andrews!
Your top 20 or 30 courses are going to sound like a good list because they have gotten a lot of top-10 votes, but after that, errors as described above are astounding.
Don't feel too bad. This is essentially the voting system which GOLF Magazine used the first couple of times they ranked the top 50 courses in the world, before I got involved. That's how Royal Hong Kong and Royal Selangor in Malaysia got on their list ... a couple of panelists in the Far East who'd never traveled in the US or UK gave them 15 points.
Or, you could require a minimum number of mentions. Of a group this size perhaps 3-5 minimum mentions of a course is reasonable before it hits the list.
Ciao
You need to have a list of courses, say the top 50 from this post. Everyone needs to rate the courses they have played on the list out of 10 based on an agreed scale. Each course will then have an average score. This will eliminate the problem of very few people having played Cypress Point relative to Pebble Beach.
Of course, given that I gave St.Enodoc 6 points, and it doesn't appear on the list, I can see that no-one takes any notice of me. ;)
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This list is for fun, and not a candidate for a Nobel Prize in statistical correctness. Same goes for Golf Mag, Golf World and Golf Digest, or course, as I'm sure Tom Doak, Brad Klein and Ron Whitten will attest.
You could probably "correct" the data comparing posters' experience with aggregate "ratings," but who cares? Not me.
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I think I have learned from this that another system is needed when we do it again.
I once saw a voting system, were everyone gives every course they have played a rating which is averaged and put into ranking, Does anyone know were we can get a similar system.
Matthew
PS. Last chance to vote is today
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It is painfully obvious that not enough GCA folks have played Oakmont, Augusta, or Cypress Point.
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I though Sand Hills was pravite with hard to get Tee-Times but a lot of people seem to have played it.
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Matthew,
There's any number of ways to do your "rating system." The easiest way to do it would be Mr. Doak's method just using 1-10...otherwise the numbers get rather detailed and people won't be as likely to take the time to fill it out. Also, most of this group understands the system. I would think it would be wise to get permission before jumping in...but its a thought.
You'd still need decent participation to make it work, but I think the results would be interesting. You also won't ever be able to completely get rid of the experience factor...using the previous example the poster who thinks Talking Stick and We-Ko-Pa are #1 and #2 are likely to give them high ratings as well in many cases, not realizing how many better courses might be out there (not making any judgements on those courses--I'm just using them as they're already mentioned).
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A quick glance at the list and I didn't see Friars Head, Plainfield or Winged Foot - maybe I missed them. If not, I wonder what should be made of their omission?
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Winged Foot (W) #80. Friars Head #29.
It is tough to base a ranking on just someone's top 10. Plainfield is a fantastic course and deserves mention, but since it doesn't fall in my top 10, it gets no points.
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Jeez, and I thought my eyesight was okay.
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Winged Foot (East) is at #16. I have to believe there were miscalculations made when adding WF East and West points.
Also, Bandon Dunes is on the list twice, at 13 and 5 points.
You have to rate all courses, rather than an MVP style voting system where only the top 12 or 15 receive votes. Courses like Riviera or Plainfield, which may not make many top 10 lists, would make lots of top 30 lists, and are under-represented on this list.
Once Shivas' votes are tallied, Jans National will be top 50 in the world.
Spelling errors, working down the list:
Merion
Royal Dornoch
Shinnecock Hills
Kingsley Club
Prairie Dunes
Turnberry (Ailsa)
Oakmont
Lahinch
Blackwolf Run
Machrihanish
Greywalls (Marquette GC)
Senione is probably Seminole
Seminole must be really hard to get on, given its low ranking.
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How does Royal St. Georges (no.48) compare to Sandwich (no.62)? I've heard they're very similar. Has anyone played them both? ;)
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Once Shivas' votes are tallied, Jans National will be top 50 in the world.
Speaking of which hasn't it just closed it's reverse course after it's short season? I wonder how many rounds this year? I do hope the honesty box wasn't abused.
Calling Shivas...
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What does WWPB stand for?
And what is Jans National?
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Can somebody bring up the Reverse Jans thread for Matthew ;D
Probably the funniest thread I have ever read!
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So Jans National is a fantasy Course
edit: I know what it is now.
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What does WWPB stand for?
World Woods Pine Barrens
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It is painfully obvious that not enough GCA folks have played Oakmont, Augusta, or Cypress Point.
Someone will want to make them aware of this oversight. No doubt they will be flying us out in bunches to fix the problem!
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It is painfully obvious that not enough GCA folks have played Oakmont, Augusta, or Cypress Point.
Someone will want to make them aware of this oversight. No doubt they will be flying us out in bunches to fix the problem!
First Class British Airways is the only thing that would get me to play them Pitch and Putts ;D.
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Should I count "Jans National"?
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Also, Matthew...
Jans National is a small course in the Chicago area where Shivas plays occasionally. I don't know any other details (probably a 9 hole course), other than Shivas thinks it's the greatest course in the world. It's probably better known as the Peter Jans Municipal course, or something like that.
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http://www.peterjansgolf.org/ (http://www.peterjansgolf.org/)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I think I will include it just to see if they believe they were elected in to the Top 50 in the World ;D
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What does "FI" stand for
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I think I will include it just to see if they believe they were elected in to the Top 50 in the World ;D
May as well...there's a yet to be built course on the list too.
Joe
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What Course is that Joe and at what number :o?
It shall be deleted!
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List up to Post #60
1.St Andrews Old 214pts
2. Sand Hills 187
3. Pine Valley 154
4. Royal Dornoch 152
5. NGLA 125
6. Royal County Down 123
7. Merion 121
8. Cypess Point 105
9. Pacific Dunes 105
10. Shinnecock Hills 89
11. Ballybunion 88
12. Pebble Beach 78
13. Royal Melbourne(West) 69
14. Muirfield 61
15. Crystal Downs 53
16.Winged Foot (West)43
17. Ballyneal 42
18. North Berwick 39
19. Pinehurst #2 39
20. Prairie Dunes 39
21. Woodhall Spa 35
22. Kingsley Club 32
23. Augusta National 29
24. Sunningdale Old 35
25.Royal St Georges 27
26.Turnberry (Ailsa) 23
27. Friars Head 22
28. Whistling Straits 22
29. Teeth of Dog 22
30. The Ocean Course 22
31. Carnoustie (Championship) 21
32. Garden City GC 21
33. Royal Portrush 20
34. The Golf Club 19
35. Bandon Dunes 18
36. Victoria National 18
37. Bethpage Black 18
38. Royal Cinque Ports 18
39. SFGC 18
40. Lawsonia Links (Green River WI) 15
41. Oakmont 14
42. Yale 14
43. TPC at Sawgrass 13
44. Barnbougle Dunes 13
45. Pasatiempo 13
46. Dancing Rabbit - Azaleas (Choctaw, MS) 12
47. Wolf Run GC 12
48. Lahinch 11
49. Bandon Trails 11
50. High Pointe 10
51. Kingsbarns 10
52. Addington 10
53. St. George's (Toronto) 10
54. Harbour Town GL (Hilton Head Island, SC) 10
55. Black Wolf Run GC 10
56. Capstone Club (Brookwood, AL) 10
57. Royal Birkdale 10
58. Cascades 9
59. Cobblestone (Acworth, GA) 9
60. Tobacco Road 9
61. Maidstone 8
62. Mayacama 8
63. Hoylake 8
64. Riviera 8
65. Sebonack 8
66. Birkdale 8
67. Pennard 8
68. Machrihans 8
69. GreyWalls 8
70. Annbriar (Waterloo, IL) 8
71. Banff Springs 8
72. Highlands (Cape Breton) 7
73. Cruden Bay 7
74. Dancing Rabbit Oaks 7
75. Kingston Heath 7
76. Sandwich 7
77. Preswick 7
78. Metropolitan, Vic 7
79. Point O'Woods GC 7
80. Rolling green 6
81. Wild Horse 6
82. French Lick 6
83. New South Wales 6
84. Berkshire Red 6
85. Kinloch 6
86. Arcadia Bluffs 6
87. Shaker Run (Lebanon, OH) 6
88. Paa-Ko Ridge GC 6
89. Cape Kidnappers 5
90.Winged Foot(East)5
91. Portmarnock 5
92. Woking 5
93. RTJ Capitol Hill Links (Auburn, AL) 5
94. Pennard 5
95. Fishers Island 5
96. Burnham and Berrow 5
97. Rustic Canyon 4
98. Black Mesa GC (Espanola, NM) 4
99. BCC Five Farms 4
100. The European Club 4
101 Camargo 4
102. Senione 4
103. WWPB 4
104. Crail 3
105. University Ridge (Madison, WI)3
106. Nob North (Cohutta, GA)3
107. Apache Stronghold 3
108. Olympic 3
109. Peeping Rock 3
110. Royal Adelaide 3
111. Palmetto 3
112. New Zealand GC 2
113. Congressional 2
114.K Club 2
115. The Country Club 2
116. Royal Melbourne (East) 2
117. Spencer T Olin (Alton, IL) 2
118. Long Cove GC (Hilton Head Island, SC) 2
119. Newport National 2
120. Roses Point 1
121. Crooked Stick GC (Carmel, IN) 1
122. The Frog (Villa Rica, GA) 1
123. Aiken CC (Highland) 1
124. Kilkeel 1
125. Winchester GC 1
126. Boston Golf Club 1
127. Rye 1
128. Royal St. Kitts 1
129. Wolf Point Club 1
130. We-Ko-Pa 1
131. Sutton Bay 1
132. Wanamoisett GC 1
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FI = Fisher's Island, a remote and private Seth Raynor design. Don't know whether it is considered in New York or Connecticut or Rhode Island or what.
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FI = Fisher's Island, a remote and private Seth Raynor design. Don't know whether it is considered in New York or Connecticut or Rhode Island or what.
It's part of NY, John.
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Looks like my ballot wasn't counted. That's okay -- it's hard to feel slighted by a list that has Oakmont at 40th, Riviera at 64th and Royal Melbourne at 116th.
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Looks like my ballot wasn't counted. That's okay -- it's hard to feel slighted by a list that has Oakmont at 40th, Riviera at 64th and Royal Melbourne at 116th.
I voted twice and got snubbed both times.
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Bill and Rick what post number is your votes?
Oakmont and Riviera will move up the list as it goes on.
Royal Melborne is number 13.
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No Kapalua on that list
???
That would be my #1 course...
I'll refrain from the other nine though as I haven't played enough courses.
But, make sure Kapalua is on that list!
:)
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OK
You seem inpresesed with Peter Jans though ;D
You could make it top 30 :)
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Matthew,
My post was #86. I guess you haven't gotten that far yet. And yes, I see that I was looking at Royal Melbourne East (116) on your latest list, not West.
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I'm up to 68 so far
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#12
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I'll Fix that Bill
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Because I am not as well traveled as most, my list may skew the rankings a bit...
1 Yale GC
2 Newport CC
3 Pinehust No 2
4 Palmetto GC
5 Cuscowilla
6 Taconic GC
7 Athens (GA) CC
8 Hartford GC
9 TPC River Highlands
10 Caledonia G&FC
11 Doral Blue Monster
12 Duke University GC
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WWPB=World Woods Pine Barrens course
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Bump
Will finish soon.
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Thanks, Matthew, for doing this. Despite its limitations, it's an interesting exercise.
-
This is the Top 100 up to Post 80, The nerxt list will be final.
1.St Andrews Old 303 pts
2. Royal Dornoch 248
3. Sand Hills 188
4. Royal County Down 185
5. Pine Valley 183
6. Pacific Dunes 150
7. Cypess Point 149
8. Merion 140
9. NGLA 137
10. Ballybunion 115
11. Pebble Beach 109
12. Royal Melbourne(West) 105
13. Shinnecock Hills 101
14. Muirfield 99
15. Pinehurst #2 95
16. Crystal Downs 83
17. North Berwick 53
18.Winged Foot (West)51
19. Prairie Dunes 50
20. Royal Portrush 45
21.Turnberry (Ailsa) 43
22. Ballyneal 42
23. Woodhall Spa 41
24. Augusta National 39
25. SFGC 36
26. Carnoustie (Championship) 36
27. Kingsley Club 32
28. Sunningdale Old 35
29. Bethpage Black 34
30. Lahinch 28
31.Royal St Georges 27
32. Lawsonia Links 25
33. Oakmont 24
34. Hoylake 24
35. Kingston Heath 23
36. Friars Head 22
37. Whistling Straits 22
38. Teeth of Dog 22
39. The Ocean Course 22
40. Garden City GC 21
41. The Golf Club 19
42. Machrihanish 18
43. Bandon Dunes 18
44. Rolling green 18
45. Yale 18
46. Victoria National 18
47. Royal Cinque Ports 18
48. Pasatiempo 17
49. Nanea 15
50. Ganton 15
51. Seminole 15
52. TPC at Sawgrass 15
53. Tobacco Road 13
54. Barnbougle Dunes 13
55. Harbour Town GL (Hilton Head Island, SC) 12
56. Dancing Rabbit - Azaleas (Choctaw, MS) 12
57. Wolf Run GC 12
58. Lahinch 11
59. Bandon Trails 11
60. High Pointe 10
61. Kingsbarns 10
62. Addington 10
63. Doonbeg 10
64. St. George's (Toronto) 10
65. Black Wolf Run GC 10
66. Capstone Club 10
67. Royal Birkdale 10
68. Shoreacres 10
69. The European Club 9
70. Myopia Hunt 9
71. Cascades 9
72. Cobblestone (Acworth, GA) 9
73. Maidstone 8
74. Mayacama 8
75. Riviera 8
76. Sebonack 8
77. Woodlands 8
78. Birkdale 8
79. Pennard 8
80. Machrihans 8
81. GreyWalls 8
82. Annbriar (Waterloo, IL) 8
83. Banff Springs 8
84. Alwoodley 7
85. New South Wales 7
86. Highlands (Cape Breton) 7
87. Cruden Bay 7
88. Dancing Rabbit Oaks 7
89. Sandwich 7
90. Preswick 7
91. West Sussex 7
92. Indian Creek 7
93. Metropolitan, Vic 7
94. Lookout Mountain GC 7
95. Point O'Woods GC 7
96. Wild Horse 6
97. French Lick 6
98. New South Wales 6
99. Walton Heath 6
100. Berkshire Red 6
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Oy vey, my first post. I guess I'll try one that I understand...
"First time caller, long time listener, love the show, Ran..."
My favorites, based only on courses I've played (I assume that is the criteria all are using, no?):
1. NGLA
2. Cypress Point
3. Pine Valley
4. Pacific Dunes
5. Seminole
6. Ballyneal (yes, I'm a homer. Wait, no, I'm not. A homer would have put it way higher!) ;D
7. Sand Hills
8. Prairie Dunes
9. Shinnecock Hills
10. Augusta National (golf course only. The rest of the experience there sends it to the top of my list, without a doubt).
11. Shoreacres
12. LACC (North), Riviera or Bel-Air (someone else pick, I cannot decide
???)
Wow, this is way harder than I expected. This exercise gave me a profound sense of gratitude for the courses/members I have been able to dupe into letting me play. Leaving Myopia, Whistling Straits, Bandon Dunes or Nanea was tough for me, not to mention my paralyzing indecision re: a course in LA. Ask me tomorrow and my list could change dramatically.
As you can see, I have not left the US of A to play at all. I hope to remedy this soon!
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I see that Oakmont is a little underrepresented. If someone could arrange to have me play Oakmont twice, I will guarantee that I will place it at least tenth in my list, thereby giving Oakmont three points, which jumps it ahead of Lawsonia Links.
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Oy vey, my first post. I guess I'll try one that I understand...
"First time caller, long time listener, love the show, Ran..."
My favorites, based only on courses I've played (I assume that is the criteria all are using, no?):
1. NGLA
2. Cypress Point
3. Pine Valley
4. Pacific Dunes
5. Seminole
6. Ballyneal (yes, I'm a homer. Wait, no, I'm not. A homer would have put it way higher!) ;D
7. Sand Hills
8. Prairie Dunes
9. Shinnecock Hills
10. Augusta National (golf course only. The rest of the experience there sends it to the top of my list, without a doubt).
11. Shoreacres
12. LACC (North), Riviera or Bel-Air (someone else pick, I cannot decide
???)
Wow, this is way harder than I expected. This exercise gave me a profound sense of gratitude for the courses/members I have been able to dupe into letting me play. Leaving Myopia, Whistling Straits, Bandon Dunes or Nanea was tough for me, not to mention my paralyzing indecision re: a course in LA. Ask me tomorrow and my list could change dramatically.
As you can see, I have not left the US of A to play at all. I hope to remedy this soon!
Welcome Max to GCA.com
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thanks. I am humbled by the presence of so many great voices of GCA here. I'll try to stay out of the way for the most part but will pipe up if a post touches on my modest base of knowledge. Or a thread is in desperate need for the layman's opinion.
Max
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THEEEE Max Caulkins, former winner of The Renaissance Cup? Welcome Max and I share your enthusiasm for Ballyneal.
MR.
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Wait, a late ballot with hanging chads ...
1. Olympic Club Lake (this should vault The Lake into the Top 60 ;) )
2. Pasatiempo (improve the ranking from 48 to the top 30)
3. Cypress Point
4. The Old Course
5. North Berwick
6. Spyglass Hill
7. Rustic Canyon
8. SFGC
9. Barona
10. Prestwick
11. The Ocean Course - Kiawah Island
12. Bayonet Seaside, CA
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If we can get the rest of the Ballyneal members to join GCA, and then participate in this poll, Ballyneal could go top ten easy.
It feels great to have Max Caulkins humbled by my presence. Nice list for such a modest base of knowledge.
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This is the Top 100 up to Post 80, The nerxt list will be final.
1.St Andrews Old 303 pts
2. Royal Dornoch 248
3. Sand Hills 188
4. Royal County Down 185
5. Pine Valley 183
6. Pacific Dunes 150
7. Cypess Point 149
8. Merion 140
9. NGLA 137
10. Ballybunion 115
11. Pebble Beach 109
12. Royal Melbourne(West) 105
13. Shinnecock Hills 101
14. Muirfield 99
15. Pinehurst #2 95
16. Crystal Downs 83
17. North Berwick 53
18.Winged Foot (West)51
19. Prairie Dunes 50
20. Royal Portrush 45
21.Turnberry (Ailsa) 43
22. Ballyneal 42
23. Woodhall Spa 41
24. Augusta National 39
25. SFGC 36
26. Carnoustie (Championship) 36
27. Kingsley Club 32
28. Sunningdale Old 35
29. Bethpage Black 34
30. Lahinch 28
31.Royal St Georges 27
32. Lawsonia Links 25
33. Oakmont 24
34. Hoylake 24
35. Kingston Heath 23
36. Friars Head 22
37. Whistling Straits 22
38. Teeth of Dog 22
39. The Ocean Course 22
40. Garden City GC 21
41. The Golf Club 19
42. Machrihanish 18
43. Bandon Dunes 18
44. Rolling green 18
45. Yale 18
46. Victoria National 18
47. Royal Cinque Ports 18
48. Pasatiempo 17
49. Nanea 15
50. Ganton 15
51. Seminole 15
52. TPC at Sawgrass 15
53. Tobacco Road 13
54. Barnbougle Dunes 13
55. Harbour Town GL (Hilton Head Island, SC) 12
56. Dancing Rabbit - Azaleas (Choctaw, MS) 12
57. Wolf Run GC 12
58. Lahinch 11
59. Bandon Trails 11
60. High Pointe 10
61. Kingsbarns 10
62. Addington 10
63. Doonbeg 10
64. St. George's (Toronto) 10
65. Black Wolf Run GC 10
66. Capstone Club 10
67. Royal Birkdale 10
68. Shoreacres 10
69. The European Club 9
70. Myopia Hunt 9
71. Cascades 9
72. Cobblestone (Acworth, GA) 9
73. Maidstone 8
74. Mayacama 8
75. Riviera 8
76. Sebonack 8
77. Woodlands 8
78. Birkdale 8
79. Pennard 8
80. Machrihans 8
81. GreyWalls 8
82. Annbriar (Waterloo, IL) 8
83. Banff Springs 8
84. Alwoodley 7
85. New South Wales 7
86. Highlands (Cape Breton) 7
87. Cruden Bay 7
88. Dancing Rabbit Oaks 7
89. Sandwich 7
90. Preswick 7
91. West Sussex 7
92. Indian Creek 7
93. Metropolitan, Vic 7
94. Lookout Mountain GC 7
95. Point O'Woods GC 7
96. Wild Horse 6
97. French Lick 6
98. New South Wales 6
99. Walton Heath 6
100. Berkshire Red 6
Not to be a smart arse, Birkdale=Royal Birkdale and Sandwich=Royal St Georges
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1. NGLA
2. Pine Valley
3. Cypress Point
4. Sand Hills
5. Shinnecock
6. Pebble Beach
7. Fishers Island
8. Garden City
9. Merion
10. Yale
11. Newport CC
12. Enniscrone
Need to get overseas more.
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If having played is a prerequisite:
1.) Cypress Point
2.) Crystal Downs
3.) Greywalls
4.) Kingsley Club
5.) Pasatiempo
6.) Tobacco Road
7.) Olympic (Lake)
8.) Pine Needles
9.) Lawsonia (Links)
10.) Milwaukee CC
11) Monterey Peninsula CC (Shore)
12) Indianwood (Old)
Ask me again when I get back from Kapalua in a couple weeks ;)
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Been following this one from the start. Figure that I should share my top twelve.
1.) Ballybunion
2.) Royal County Down
3.) Royal Portrush
4.) Erin Hills
5.) Lahinch
6.) Lawsonia
7.) Enniscrone
8.) Carne
9.) Waterville
10.) County Louth-Baltray
11.) Portsalon
12.) Criet Island, Pretty sure I spelled it wrong, it is a neat 9 holer on the northwest coast of Ireland.
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Closing date Dec 20th (Rankings will be done for Xmas)
In the beginning.....
-
Voting is now closed.
-
Sorry late entry
1. The Old Course
2. Royal County Down
3. Royal Melbourne (west)
4. Kingston Heath
5. New South Wales
6. Royal Portrush
7. Portmarnock
8. Royal Sydney
9. Swinley Forest
10.Royal Hague
Trying to compile this list makes you realise you have a lot of courses still to play especially if you have never been to the U.S.
-
in case the balloting reopens:
1. Olympic(Lake)
2. Pebble Beach
3. LA CC(North)
4. Spyglass Hill
5. Riviera
6. Pasatiempo
7. Bayonet
8. Kapalua(Plantation)
9. Stone Eagle
10. Torrey Pines(South)
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Matthew,
For the sake of YOUR best interests, this thread is going to be eliminated. The only reason why I'm leaving it up is so you can read this.
26 posts and your setting up a GCA rating team? I don't think so!
Now go do something more constructive, like pick up Architectural Side of Golf and read it, Try to find out what inspired Bill Coore to take up golf architecture....
BTW, the Golf Digest ratings are an abomination, thus further showing just how badly Golf Digest's knowledge of golf courses really is. If your a Golf Digest Panelist, I suggest either resigning out of disgust or simply lerning something to take back to your colleagues in great hopes they can become better panelists.
Tommy,
Please keep your word and delete soon.
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Personally, I think this thread, against all odds and detractions, has come up with a pretty good list.
Yeah they may be "ranked" higher or lower than they maybe should be, but it has produced a great list of "GCA-approved" and important courses one should hope to see one day.
It has even inspired me to revisit my personal ranking I did 5 or 6 years ago, even though it appears my top 10/12 will not make the cut-off date...
-
I would like to echo Brad's comments. I don't know if the order is correct but there's not a single course on the list that I would not like to see/play. The list is geographically diverse with a good mix of the old and new.
(Matthew, one minor correction is #80 and 42 are the same. Also 30 and 58)
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Ah, what the heck. I know I'm late, but...
Courses I've played:
1) The Old Course (of course, only having played it once, I was in shock at the time)
2) Cruden Bay
3) Muirfield
4) World Woods Pine Barrens
5) Cape Breton Highlands
6) Royal Dornoch
7) North Berwick West Links
8) Crowbush Cove
Don't want to make any calls on courses below 8. Never played in California :). In order to make the list, my criterion is that I would be willing to get up at 5 in the morning, drive 5 hours to the course, play it, then drive home that day. Gotta be good for that!
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One last list!
1. Cypress Point
2. NGLA
3. Pacific Dunes
4. Pebble Beach
5. The Old Course
6. Valley Club
7. Hoylake
8. Pasatiempo
9. North Berwick
10. Oakmont
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Matthew,
For the sake of YOUR best interests, this thread is going to be eliminated. The only reason why I'm leaving it up is so you can read this.
26 posts and your setting up a GCA rating team? I don't think so!
Now go do something more constructive, like pick up Architectural Side of Golf and read it, Try to find out what inspired Bill Coore to take up golf architecture....
BTW, the Golf Digest ratings are an abomination, thus further showing just how badly Golf Digest's knowledge of golf courses really is. If your a Golf Digest Panelist, I suggest either resigning out of disgust or simply lerning something to take back to your colleagues in great hopes they can become better panelists.
Tommy,
Please keep your word and delete soon.
I have perrmission from Ran for this thread and I will do a In My Opinion Article on it
-
Matthew,
For the sake of YOUR best interests, this thread is going to be eliminated. The only reason why I'm leaving it up is so you can read this.
26 posts and your setting up a GCA rating team? I don't think so!
Now go do something more constructive, like pick up Architectural Side of Golf and read it, Try to find out what inspired Bill Coore to take up golf architecture....
BTW, the Golf Digest ratings are an abomination, thus further showing just how badly Golf Digest's knowledge of golf courses really is. If your a Golf Digest Panelist, I suggest either resigning out of disgust or simply lerning something to take back to your colleagues in great hopes they can become better panelists.
Tommy,
Please keep your word and delete soon.
I have perrmission from Ran for this thread and I will do a In My Opinion Article on it
Matthew,
Nicely done, and if you ever decide to apply to Cornell, feel free to ask me for a reference and more importantly, I will guilt Tom Doak into doing one for you too.
-
If can get my personal list in, that would be good. Some will be top-tier worldwide, some won't. I haven't played too many "great" courses, but there are a few up there.
1) The Country Club, Brookline
2) St. George's, Ontario
3) Oak Hollow, North Carolina
4) Oak Hill (East)
5) The Ocean Course
6) Country Club of Rochester
7) Country Club of Buffalo
8) Teugega
9) Oak Hill (West)
10) Mill Creek, Rochester
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I can't help it. I tried not to do it, but here is my list of the ones I have played.
1. Royal Dornoch
2. Pac Dunes
3. Royal Co. Down
4. Muirfield
5. Ballyneal
6. Sand Hills
7. Cypress Pt.
8. North Berwick
9. Stone Eagle
10. Kingsbarns
11. Ballybunion
12. Portmarnock
-
1. St. Louis C.C.
2. St. Andrews New Course
3. Crooked Stick
4. Cog Hill #4
5. Algonquin G.C.
6. Fox Run G.C.
7. Swope Park Memorial
8. Crescent Farms G.C. (formerly The Players Club, formerly Crescent G.C.)
9. A.L. Gustin
10. Normandie
11. George Wright
12. Alvamar G.C.
I restricted this list to courses I have played. I also left off 2 courses due to they restricted play to carts.
Now for the much better list. The 12 best courses I have ever walked but never played.
1. St. Andrews Old Course
2. The Country Club
3. Bethpage Black
4. Yale
5. Winged Foot West
6. Colonial
7. Augusta National
8. Sleepy Hollow
9. The Orchards
10. Longmeadow C.C.
11. Medinah #3
12. Bellerive
-
I think this list proves that most golfers only get to play shit courses in their lifetime. I'm a bit more curious why that is so. Is it a personality flaw..or is it the structure of american golf. Based on what I have read over the last five years..I'm going with the personality flaw.
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John,
Thus is life!
Some people thought that Ford Pinto was a pretty cool car back in the day!
I was born in a house that my dad bought for $1 down and $99 a month - and he was dang proud of it!
Today I make plans for a trip some day to Scotland and Ireland. I seek to add a few really good courses to those I know each year. And, I still dream of getting my 9 down into the low single digits!
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I think this list proves that most golfers only get to play shit courses in their lifetime. I'm a bit more curious why that is so. Is it a personality flaw..or is it the structure of american golf. Based on what I have read over the last five years..I'm going with the personality flaw.
Money mainly.
Also people like me come from Non-golfing Familys so we dont go on Golf trips.
Access is a Major Issue for people not in the "Know".
-
4) World Woods Pine Barrens
5) Cape Breton Highlands
6) Royal Dornoch
Having played WW Pine Barrens, I'm going to conclude from this list that I should be in no rush to get to Dornoch... ;)
-
People not in the know do not desire access so it is not a issue at all. Of all the top 100's I have played that I am not a member I have paid at less than half so money is not an issue either. It's all about time and personallity.
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People not in the know do not desire access so it is not a issue at all. Of all the top 100's I have played that I am not a member I have paid at less than half so money is not an issue either. It's all about time and personallity.
I understand your point but the average Golfer cannnot play Oakmount, Cypress or August when they feel like it.
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People not in the know do not desire access so it is not a issue at all. Of all the top 100's I have played that I am not a member I have paid at less than half so money is not an issue either. It's all about time and personallity.
I understand your point but the average Golfer cannnot play Oakmount, Cypress or August.
That is because the courses you have attempted to spell are not average courses. There is not a soul born into this world that is restricted from playing any of those three if they have patience (time) and lead a charitable and worthy life. (personality)
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You're too much...
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Even though I assume I'm well past the deadline....
1. Merion East
2. The Old Course
3. Prestwick
4. Bethpage Black
5. Pacific Dunes
6. Essex County Club (MA)
7. Ballybunion Old
8. Newport CC
9. Myopia Hunt Club
10. Royal Dornoch
11. Turnberry
12. Bandon Dunes
Honorable Mentions up to #20: Kapalua Plantation, Salem CC, Cruden Bay, Plainfield CC, Carne, The Country Club (MA), Barona Creek, Bandon Trails
Notables not making my top 20: Winged Foot West (#21), Kittansett (#24), Pinehurst #2 (#26), Mid-Ocean (#34), Yale (#47, admittedly my only play was pre-sprucing up)
My only criteria was: Where would you rather play??
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For whatever it's worth....
1.) Merion (East)
2.) Cypress Point
3.) Inverness
4.) Ekwanok
5.) Bethpage (Black)
6.) Olympic (Lake)
7.) Lahinch (Old)
8.) Pebble Beach
9.) LA (North)
10.) The Old Course
11.) Turnberry (Ailsa)
12.) Prestwick
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Even though I assume I'm well past the deadline....
1. Merion East
2. The Old Course
3. Prestwick
4. Bethpage Black
5. Pacific Dunes
6. Essex County Club (MA)
7. Ballybunion Old
8. Newport CC
9. Myopia Hunt Club
10. Royal Dornoch
11. Turnberry
12. Bandon Dunes
Honorable Mentions up to #20: Kapalua Plantation, Salem CC, Cruden Bay, Plainfield CC, Carne, The Country Club (MA), Barona Creek, Bandon Trails
Notables not making my top 20: Winged Foot West (#21), Kittansett (#24), Pinehurst #2 (#26), Mid-Ocean (#34), Yale (#47, admittedly my only play was pre-sprucing up)
My only criteria was: Where would you rather play??
Jeezus Bradley, how long is your list? What was number 268 ;)
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Bump
I might get it finished this time. No new votes.
I will let John K Vote but I dont think he will take it ;D
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Mathew,
Why don't you get with Flemma on his quickly dying Golfclubatlas ranking thread. He could use your help with the brackets.
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I admit I've always been a lover of lists....
....and I've been fortunate enough to play many good golf courses.
And #268 is undoubtedly Cedar Glen GC in Saugas, MA....we were on the 9th tee in my only HS match there in 1997 or so....we look back after a noise...and a Toy. Tacoma pickup truck is bouncing down the middle of the third fairway at 40 mph on its way to pick up the rest of the pins..... ???
In all seriousness, I did stop at 50 on the list...it would probably get pretty ugly after 75 or 100 or so...
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Here is the latest ratings up to post #90. Entries are now closed. I know there is probably lots of mistakes so can people please point them out.
A couple of questions:
Is Black Wolf Run GC and Wolf Run GC the same club?
Is We-no-pa the same course as We-no-pa Ridge?
Isnt Sandwich another name for Royal St Georges?
Sandly Peter Jans National is not in the top 50 (Its 51st) But I think someone else voted for it so it will rise.
Here it goes:
List up to Post #90
1.St Andrews Old 357pts
2. Royal Dornoch 268
3. Sand Hills 247
4. Pine Valley 214
5. Royal County Down 203
6. Cypess Point 194
7. Pacific Dunes 177
8. Merion 161
9. NGLA 161
10. Shinnecock Hills 125
11. Pebble Beach 121
12. Royal Melbourne(West) 117
13. Ballybunion 117
14. Muirfield 99
15. Pinehurst #2 95
16. Crystal Downs 83
17. North Berwick 57
18.Winged Foot (West)51
19. Prairie Dunes 51
20. Royal Portrush 49
21. Augusta National 48
22.Turnberry (Ailsa) 46
23. Ballyneal 42
24. Woodhall Spa 41
25. Lahinch 39
26. SFGC 36
27. Carnoustie (Championship) 36
28. Kingsley Club 32
29. Sunningdale Old 35
30. Bethpage Black 34
31. Lawsonia Links 33
32.Royal St Georges 33
33. Machrihanish 32
34. Oakmont 30
35. Whistling Straits 24
36. Hoylake 24
37. Kingston Heath 23
38. Friars Head 22
39. Teeth of Dog 22
40. The Ocean Course 22
41. Garden City GC 21
42. The Golf Club 19
43. Royal Birkdale 18
44. Rolling green 18
45. Yale 18
46. Rye 18
47. Victoria National 18
48. Royal Cinque Ports 18
49. Pasatiempo 17
50. Waterville 16
51. Peter Jans National Golf Club 15
52. Nanea 15
53. Ganton 15
54. Seminole 15
55. TPC at Sawgrass 15
56. Tobacco Road 13
57. Barnbougle Dunes 13
58. Harbour Town GL (Hilton Head Island, SC) 12
59. Dancing Rabbit - Azaleas (Choctaw, MS) 12
60. Wolf Run GC 12
61. Bandon Trails 11
62. High Pointe 10
63. Kingsbarns 10
64. Addington 10
65. Doonbeg 10
66. Cape Kidnappers 10
65. St. George's (Toronto) 10
66. Black Wolf Run GC 10
67. Capstone Club 10
68. Shoreacres 10
69. The European Club 9
70. Hazeltine 9
71. Myopia Hunt 9
72. Cascades 9
73. Cobblestone (Acworth, GA) 9
74. Tobacco Road 8
75. Maidstone 8
76. Mayacama 8
77. Riviera 8
78. Sebonack 8
79. Woodlands 8
80. Pennard 8
81. GreyWalls 8
82. St Edonoc 8
83. Annbriar (Waterloo, IL) 8
84. Banff Springs 8
85. Old Elm 7
86. Alwoodley 7
87. New South Wales 7
88. Highlands (Cape Breton) 7
89. Cruden Bay 7
90. Dancing Rabbit Oaks 7
91. Sandwich 7
92. Preswick 7
93. West Sussex 7
94. Indian Creek 7
95. Metropolitan, Vic 7
96. Lookout Mountain GC 7
97. Point O'Woods GC 7
98. Wild Horse 6
99. French Lick 6
100. New South Wales 6
101. Walton Heath 6
102. Berkshire Red 6
103. Kinloch 6
104 Arcadia Bluffs 6
105. Shaker Run (Lebanon, OH) 6
106. Paa-Ko Ridge GC 6
107. Shoreacres 5
108.Winged Foot(East)5
109. Oakland Hills South 5
110. Royal Lytham 5
111. Portmarnock 5
112. Hunstanton 5
113. Woking 5
114. RTJ Capitol Hill Links (Auburn, AL) 5
115. Pennard 5
116. Fishers Island 5
117. Burnham and Berrow 5
118. Rustic Canyon 5
119. Franklin Hills 5
120. Black Mesa GC (Espanola, NM) 5
121. BCC Five Farms 4
122. Royal West Norfolk 4
123. Fisher's Island 4
124. Camargo 4
125. WWPB 4
126. Kapalua Plantation 4
127. Swinley Forest 3
128. Dunes Club 3
129. Crail 3
130. University Ridge (Madison, WI)3
131 Nob North (Cohutta, GA)3
132. Apache Stronghold 3
133. Olympic 3
134. Peeping Rock 3
135. Royal Adelaide 3
136. Olympic Club Lake
137. Palmetto 3
138. Erin Hills 3
139. New Zealand GC 2
140. Congressional 2
141.K Club 2
142. The Country Club 2
143. Royal Melbourne (East) 2
144. Spencer T Olin (Alton, IL) 2
145. Long Cove GC (Hilton Head Island, SC) 2
146. Newport National 2
147. Kauri Cliffs 2
148. Troon 2
149. Indian Creek 2
150. Kittansett 1
151. Royal Adelaide 1
152. Valderama 1
153. Roses Point 1
154. Crooked Stick GC (Carmel, IN) 1
155. The Frog (Villa Rica, GA) 1
156. Aiken CC (Highland) 1
157. Kilkeel 1
158. Winchester GC 1
159. Boston Golf Club 1
160. Royal St. Kitts 1
161. Wolf Point Club 1
162. We-Ko-Pa 1
163. Sutton Bay 1
164. Wanamoisett GC 1
165. Berkshire Blue 1
166. Silloth on Solway 1
167. Canterbury 1
168. Tralee 1
169. Itasca CC 1
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Matthew,
Blackwolf Run and Wolf Run are different courses, and BWR actually has two courses (River and Meadow Valleys).
BWR River and Wolf Run are both profiled in Courses By Country.
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Seminole and Peter Jans tied with 15 points.
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We need the Internet equivalent of euthanasia for this thread. Kill it before it suffers from any more analysis. It is surely one of the worst lists ever developed.
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I have Finished the list with the Old course running away at No.1! Like all lists it is Opinion not fact and it is disigned for Disscusion.
Please point out any spelling mistakes or cources listed twice ect.
Note Number after 100 not right
1.St Andrews Old 400pts
2. Royal Dornoch 286
3. Sand Hills 260
4. Royal County Down 240
5. Cypess Point 237
7. Pacific Dunes 225
6. Pine Valley 224
7. NGLA 201
9. Merion 176
10. Pebble Beach 142
11. Ballybunion 140
12. Shinnecock Hills 129
13. Royal Melbourne(West) 127
14. Muirfield 106.
15.Cystal Downs 105
16. Pinehurst #2 95
17. North Berwick 75
18. Royal Portrush 65
19. Prairie Dunes 65
20. Ballyneal 57
21.Winged Foot (West)51
22. Augusta National 51
23. Pasatiempo 49
24.Turnberry (Ailsa) 48
25. Lahinch 47
23. Bethpage Black 43
24. Kingsley Club 41
25. SFGC 41
26. Woodhall Spa 41
27. Bandon Dunes 41
28. Olympic Club Lake 39
29. Whistling Straits(Straits) 39
30. Lawsonia Links 37
31. Carnoustie (Championship) 36
32. Sunningdale Old 35
33. Hoylake 33
34. Yale 33
35.Royal St Georges 33
36. Kingston Heath 32
37. Machrihanish 32
38. Oakmont 30
39. Kapalua Plantation 24
40. Siminole 24
41. The Ocean Course 24
42. Friars Head 22
43. Teeth of Dog 22
44. GreyWalls 21
45. Garden City GC 21
46. Preswick 20
47. Waterville 20
48. Bandon Trails 20
49. St. George's (Toronto) 20
50. The Golf Club 19
51. Royal Birkdale 18
52. Rolling green 18
53. Rye 18
54. Victoria National 18
55. Royal Cinque Ports 18
56. Newport CC 17
57. Riviera 17
58. Shoreacres 17
59. Wolf Run GC 17
60. Spyglass Hill 16
61. New South Wales 16
62. Tobacco Road 15
63. Peter Jans National Golf Club 15
64. Highlands Links 15
65. Nanea 15
66. Ganton 15
67. TPC at Sawgrass 15
68. Myopia Hunt 13
69. Kingsbarns 13
70. Tobacco Road 13
71. Barnbougle Dunes 13
72. Erin Hills 12
73. Harbour Town GL (Hilton Head Island, SC) 12
74. Portmarnock 12
75. Arcadia Bluffs 12
76. Dancing Rabbit - Azaleas (Choctaw, MS) 12
77. Rustic Canyon 11
78. LA CC(North) 10
79. High Pointe 10
80. Addington 10
81. Doonbeg 10
82. Cape Kidnappers 10
83. Black Wolf Run GC 10
84. Capstone Club 10
85. Indian Creek 9
86.Fishers Island 9
87. The European Club 9
88. Hazeltine 9
89. Cascades 9
90. Cobblestone (Acworth, GA) 9
91. Stone Eagle 8
93. Maidstone 8
94. Mayacama 8
95. Sebonack 8
96. Woodlands 8
97. Pennard 8
98. St Edonoc 8
99. Annbriar (Waterloo, IL) 8
100. Banff Springs 8
101. Essex County Club 7
102. Valley club 7
103. Swinley Forest 7
104. Pine Needles 7
105. Old Elm 7
106. Alwoodley 7
107. Highlands (Cape Breton) 7
108. Cruden Bay 7
109. Dancing Rabbit Oaks 7
110. Sandwich 7
111. West Sussex 7
95. Metropolitan, Vic 7
96. Lookout Mountain GC 7
97. Point O'Woods GC 7
100. Bayonet 6
100. Enniscrone 6
98. Wild Horse 6
99. French Lick 6
100. New South Wales 6
101. Walton Heath 6
102. Berkshire Red 6
103. Kinloch 6
105. Shaker Run (Lebanon, OH) 6
106. Paa-Ko Ridge GC 6
100. Royal Sydney 5
100. Carne 5
108.Winged Foot(East)5
109. Oakland Hills South 5
110. Royal Lytham 5
112. Hunstanton 5
113. Woking 5
114. RTJ Capitol Hill Links (Auburn, AL) 5
115. Pennard 5
117. Burnham and Berrow 5
119. Franklin Hills 5
120. Black Mesa GC (Espanola, NM) 5
9 - Whistling Straits(Irish) 4
100. Royal Hague 4
121. BCC Five Farms 4
122. Royal West Norfolk 4
9. Barona 4
124. Camargo 4
125. WWPB 4
10. Torrey Pines(South) 3
128. Dunes Club 3
129. Crail 3
130. University Ridge (Madison, WI)3
131 Nob North (Cohutta, GA)3
132. Apache Stronghold 3
134. Peeping Rock 3
135. Royal Adelaide 3
137. Palmetto 3
10.) Milwaukee CC 3
100. County Louth-Baltray 3
100 Monterey Peninsula CC (Shore) 2
139. New Zealand GC 2
140. Congressional 2
141.K Club 2
142. The Country Club 2
143. Royal Melbourne (East) 2
144. Spencer T Olin (Alton, IL) 2
145. Long Cove GC (Hilton Head Island, SC) 2
146. Newport National 2
147. Kauri Cliffs 2
148. Troon 2
11.) Portsalon 2
12.) Criet Island1
150. Kittansett 1
151. Royal Adelaide 1
152. Valderama 1
153. Rosses Point 1
154. Crooked Stick GC (Carmel, IN) 1
155. The Frog (Villa Rica, GA) 1
156. Aiken CC (Highland) 1
157. Kilkeel 1
158. Winchester GC 1
159. Boston Golf Club 1
160. Royal St. Kitts 1
161. Wolf Point Club 1
162. We-Ko-Pa 1
163. Sutton Bay 1
164. Wanamoisett GC 1
165. Berkshire Blue 1
166. Silloth on Solway 1
167. Canterbury 1
168. Tralee 1
169. Itasca CC 1
111. Tanglewood Park (Championship) 1
111. 12. Bayonet Seaside, CA 1
12) Indianwood (Old) 1
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Congratulations Matthew, worth waiting for.
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What does everyone think of the List?
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Terry L:
Could not agree with you more. ;D
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Matthew:
The top 30 or 40 are interesting, especially the inclusion of North Berwick which never makes any of the "world top 100" lists. (But, the more I play it, the more I like it.)
Everything after about #60 is meaningless, because just one or two votes could place a course that high. If I had voted for the course I grew up on as the second best in the world, facetiously, it would be tied with Harbour Town and Portmarnock and Erin Hills (!) for 72nd in the world.
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A bit old, but whats your opinion on this list. I agree with tom that lower down it dets dodgy but I think near the top it has as a good if not better as any magizine lists.
Whats your opinion and how would you improve it?
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In my list I've got Crail at 128 and The Dunes Club at 129, but otherwise I agree entirely.
There is a minor typo; the New South Wales rankings should read:
"61. New South Wales -- Sunny Day"
"100. New South Wales -- Rainy, Fogged-In Day"
At least that's how I voted them.
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In my list I've got Crail at 128 and The Dunes Club at 129, but otherwise I agree entirely.
There is a minor typo; the New South Wales rankings should read:
"61. New South Wales -- Sunny Day"
"100. New South Wales -- Rainy, Fogged-In Day"
At least that's how I voted them.
You are a sick man...becoming sicker every day...
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It's still a long way down to YaBB God -- or would that be Yabb former God
Hey, there's something for the Cowley opposites thread: Mental health and GCA.com
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Touche...
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8) ;D :D
I'm with Naccarato on this one...the time and effort to do rankings is better spent elsewhere!
They don't matter !
Please refrain from this in the future....
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I have to point out one glaring omission per golf in the St. Louis area as represented on this list. And this is NOT a debatable point. Spencer T. Olin is #144 on this list. Now I understand that this far down it only takes a couple of votes to get to #144. But St. Louis C.C. is nowhere on this list.
I GUARANTEE you St. Louis C.C. is better then Spencer T. Olin, and should always, on any list be ranked above Spencer T. Olin.
I do know that if I had the capability to rank the top 200 courses in the world, St. Louis C.C. would be a candidate, and that Spencer T. Olin would not be a candidate. It is a good public course, but Spencer T. Olin is not a nationally ranked course.
My conclusion is that everything after 100 should just be thrown out and ignored. But I would summise that this conclusion is pretty obvious. Just assign those after #100 an MC, and list them alphabetically.
(And then either remove Spencer T. Olin, or add St. Louis C.C.)
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Whew, for a minute there I thought you were going to beat on Annbriar at 99, but your rec would put it right inside the cut line.
Maybe Matthew could throw out Royal Melbourne (East) at 143 and slot in SLCC. Would that work?
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Started a new rating from what I've learned.
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Only courses i have played
1. The old course
2. NGLA
3. Prairie Dunes
4. Myopia Hunt
5. Merion
6. Shinnecock Hills
7. Friars Head
8. Westchester CC West (under rated on this site)
9. Bethpage noir
10. Yale
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Only courses i have played
1. The old course
2. NGLA
3. Prairie Dunes
4. Myopia Hunt
5. Merion
6. Shinnecock Hills
7. Friars Head
8. Westchester CC West (under rated on this site)
9. Bethpage noir
10. Yale
Jeff, swap over too new thread (intresting list)
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matthew
sorry--not enough coffee!
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Limited to courses that I have played or walked
1. Pine Valley
2. Merion
3. Ballybunion Old
4. Winged Foot
5. Oakmont
6. Shinnecock Hills
7. Pebble Beach
8. Spyglass
9. Bethpage Black
10.Plainfield
left off list Masquamicut, Ridgewood, Saucon Valley Old, Weyhill, Garden City, Westchester, Aronomink, Lahinch, Waterville, Old Head
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Richard,
I have been thinking about this idea: a Golf Club Atlas checklist/scoring sheet along the lines of what USGA raters and the magazines use. Maybe ours would have a different angle, one that weights architecture more than conditioning, etc.
I have never seen the forms used by other raters. Perhaps there are other GCA members who might be able to modify one for GCA use? Then if any of us choose, we could submit a GCA rating on the courses we play.
It is a lot of work and many won't bother, but perhaps there are few who would enjoy studying a course along a specific set of "architectural" guidelines.
P.S. Let me know when you get it finished. ;D
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It would be interesting if this list were altered with the requirement that a course be "rated" a minimum number of times. Say 3 or 4 mentions before it can make the list. This may help to keep out some wierd courses from scoring so highly as well as make the list more representative in terms of the world. As it is now, it strikes me as very, very American heavy - probably eliminating several other courses from around the world making the list.
Ciao