Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: John_Conley on October 14, 2006, 12:11:44 PM
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Now that Arnold Palmer has finished his playing career we can shift at least some attention to his designs.
K Club was recently discussed here and there were many opinions that consider it a great "match-play course".
What other Palmer/Seay courses are worth making a trip to see? No pun intended.
BTW, Bay Hill was not originally laid out by Palmer although he has had a hand in extensive reworking over the decades.
I'll throw out one that's pretty good - a Cary favorite - Deacon's Lodge in the Brainerd Lakes area of Minnesota. A misnomer if there ever was one, I don't think Mr. Palmer's father ever set foot on the site, the course is a terrific modern layout.
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It is difficult to know how much time Arnie spent at each course. There is the famous story of the opening of Tralee when he asked, "Where is the first tee?"
I am not sure that meant that he did not have input on the design phase through blue prints etc. After all both Ross and Tillinhast did not see all of their completed projects. I think we hold modern architects to a higher standard than the old ones.
Some Palmer designs I like are , Musgrove Mill and Old Tabby Links in SC, CC at Woodmore in MD
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John,
I don't know if it's worth a trip or not but I really enjoy Wildcat Run in Estero Fla.
I was a member at Wildcat for about 10 years and I first played the course when the proshop was a trailer so I had a chance to see it evolve a bit.
For a golf course that was designed with housing as the primary focus a sporty, fun to play, pretty well routed venue was created.
The 14th hole was kind of a Palmer/Seay signature or standard for that period being a bunkerless straightaway long par 4 with the green an extension of the fairway, the ultimate Bang it twice hole that played in to a prevailing wind most days.
The 18th in particular was a very fun risk/reward par 5 that both the power hitters and bunters could enjoy.
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I liked Bay Creek in Cape Charles, Virginia and Tralee in Ireland.
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Of the 3 Palmer/Seay courses in the Philadelphia area, Laurel Creek is probably the best although it has been ruined by the sight of too much Toll Brothers housing. If the housing were not built, it would be considered at a higher level.It usualy plays fast and firm. My former club, Commonwealth, is a very difficult course interspaced between an office campus and adjacent to a Naval Air Base. It's a very difficult course noted for its excellent conditioning.The third course, Blue Bell, was modified from the original routing by Toll Brothers to accomodate more housing and is generally regarded as the weak sister of the Palmer courses here.
I've played Cherokee Run in Atlanta and thought it was well done.
I agree with Ed Baker's assessment of Wildcat Run as fun to play.
I understand Palmer's home club in La Quinta, The Tradition Club, is highly regarded.
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I like Hapuna in Hawaii for my best/only Palmer course. And certainly don't like what he did to Dick Wilson/Joe Lee's Bay Hill to maintain it as a Tour destination. I loved it in 1969 compared to 2006.
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I *want* to love Arnie's designs because . . . well . . . he is the standard of sportmanship by which everyone ought to be measured.
So, it bothers me to admit that this sacred cow just does not seem to measure up to scruff as an architect. The Hapuna Prince is okay, sort of.
Running Y unfolds with a thoughtful routing, but the shaping is clumsy on the holes adjacent to the vast meadows and fresh water lakes.
Air-lifting a series of green complexes that resemble a catcher's mitt and plunking them down at the edge of an Ansel Adams photo just ends up being an almost laughable non-sequitur.
Now, like Bob Graves, I've never played an Arnie creation that could be described as a "bad golf course." Everything "fits" to a greater or lesser extent - and it is obvious a competant shop directed the construction.
The missing elements are surprise, amusement, a sense of humor and whimsy. They took a shot at the double-fairway "Channel Hole" at Running Y (#17), and though it works, there is an absence of boldness in shaping.
If you are going to build a Channel Hole, then dammit, make it a REAL risk-reward. There is no point is coming up with something classical and then watering it down to a tepid shadow of its potential.
It makes me think of #15 at Lake Merced - what could have been a wild Redan ends up being a conservative letdown because Rees, like Arnie, cannot bring themselves to MAKE A STATEMENT.
There are all sorts of interesting and creative elements at La Quinta - the par 3's come to mind - but he stopped short of going whole hog. ANYTHING next to the stadium course is going to look conventional, so this was a lost opportunity.
Don't just plug in the same mind-numbing repititious junk in the name of "consistency!" Stretch the envelope. Break it if you have to. For all of Prince Puckler and C.B.'s rants against "the thirst for novelty," C.B. came up with some of the most insane renditions of "Classic Holes," ever constructed.
Arnie should have retired years ago. We know he likes to play, but it has been painful to watch THE elder statesman of golf hack it around for most of a generation.
He needs to ditch that exercise in conservative "group-think" in his shop and get some new blood in the place. Encourage experimentation - be bold.
Arnie was the boldest player in history. Guts, charm, risk, charisma, wild crashes, spectacular thrusts of the saber, gravitas and sheer love of the game.
It is time for his golf courses to reflect the man.
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For someone who is one of my all-time heroes, his architectural record is not one of great merit.
Here is my list of all of his courses that deserve to be considered 'Top 100' material:
:-[
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If I were The King, I'd look around for the Todd Eckenrode's of the design communitty and bring them into the fold. Arnie is the ultimate figurehead, so his shop is always busy.
There are all sorts of young lions out there - or guys like Doug Nickels who ought to be given more than "boutique business."
Imagine a "think tank" of brilliant and unconventional young designers gathered together with Arnie on the masthead.
I doubt Arnie has a huge ego and therefore the architects would have much greater latitude than under an autocrat like Nicklaus.
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Cullasaja ....Cashiers, NC
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Palmer Designs I Like..........
Arnold Palmer locked in a closet with the key 110,000 miles away with no hope what-so-ever of him ever being released back into the general public, thus allowing middle-aged women around the world to sleep better at night.
That's an Arnold Palmer Design I like.
He should have retired like 25-30 years ago.
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He should have retired like 25-30 years ago.
It's the Senior, oops, Champions Tour and attendance and TV coverage is lacking so how many of us have actually seen him play in the past 5 - 10 years?
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I like the work that Palmer Designs did at Tralee, Ireland. Many disagree with me, and I believe there was a course there before their work, but I still enjoyed the place.
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Forrest,
I'll agree with you that Tralee is probably his firm's best work.
Except for that God-awful par 5 that goes up and up and up blindly on the back nine!
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I did not mind that par-5 — it is one-of-a-kind. In my book, a golf hole you will only find singularly in the world does not make it bad. Rather, it is interesting.
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Steve:
Good point in listing Laurel Creek in Delran, NJ. The layout when it first opened was completely free and clear of housing and the design was indeed quite good.
As an FYI -- the first hole was the par-3 8th and you played the solid par-4 7th as your concluding hole.
In many ways the course reminded me of some of the better Indiana courses because it was relatively flat.
Laurel Creek flies under the radar for many because so few likely know of the course.
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If I had to mention another AP layout w Ed Seay that made me stop and think about it -- I would select the Oasis GC in Mesquite, NV. Unfortunately, the club destroyed the original uphill par-5 1st hole and substituted a very weak short par-4 that follows the same terrain.
The long par-4 3rd -- a blind dog-leg left is one of the best AP holes I have played. A few holes further into the round you play through the red rock canyons and the holes are indeed an eyeful.
The ending is simply lackluster but I can remember saying to myself how AP / Ed Seay were not afraid to take some bold steps in bringing forward a design far from being desert conventional. In many ways -- the work of AP / Seay inspired the later design by Dennis Rider (who worked on the Oasis) who created Wolf Creek several years later.
Oasis plays just over 6,700 yards but has a very demanding 141 slope for good reason.
Too bad AP could not design more of such layouts.
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John --
I'm not a fan of Deacon's Lodge, though I've only played it once. As I recall, the wetlands were so restrictive that I felt like I was playing target golf in a marsh. The women in our group couldn't hit more than 5-iron off several tees because anything longer would carry them through the landing area and into the junk. Probably not Arnie's fault, but it wasn't my kind of course.
On the other hand, I enjoy the TPC at Blaine -- do they call that one Deacon's Walk? I can't remember now. There's water to be avoided there, too, but your options are clearer. Not really an innovative course, but a pretty solid test of golf, and fun to play.
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Forrest,
It is a one-of-a-kind hole. At least that part of it is good.
Interesting? Not in my book. It's a series of blind and uphill shots. What's so interesting about that?
Now there are plenty of OTHER holes on Tralee that are interesting and good and fun. That hole just isn't one of them, in my book.
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I like Aviara, but don't love it. 18 is a pretty good finishing hole, but the course has alot of forgettable holes as well.
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"Re:Palmer designs you like"
Could you give me a couple of weeks to answer that? Belay that. If it's not too much trouble would you mind giving me a couple of years to answer that?
I think the first Palmer course I saw was that one outside Pittsburgh which might have been the last time I played in a Pennsylvania State Amateur.
I remember standing on the 10th tee---my first hole of the first round and looking down the fairway below me and thinking if I hit this ball right in the middle of that fairway I have absolutely zero idea if my next shot is supposed to go about 90 degrees right or 90 degrees left. ;)
I don't think anyone in my group could figure it out either. So we all hit good drives in the middle of the fairway, got down there and still weren't all that sure where to go next. We figured it looked like we should go about 45 degree left over the side of a mini-mountain (it was a par 5, that much we could tell).
So we all hit long irons over the corner of the mini-mountain, walked around it and two of the shots had hit a cart path right in the landing zone and bounced over the fairway right into a parallel lake on the other side.
That just may've been the worst excuse for a golf hole in the entire civilized world.
On the other hand, there's a newish Palmer course on the highway that goes over to Amelia Island from I-95. The course seems a bit too hard, in my opinion, but that course did have a par 3 green, #17, I believe, which really was one of the neatest par 3 greens to play to I've ever seen anywhere. It was one of those unusual par 3s that is remarkably strategic.
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Here's another important point to ponder:
What's worse---Arnold Palmer courses or the names of Arnold Palmer courses? ;)
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I like Commonwealth National.
And, I think, with some fine tuning, it could be even better.
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"I like Commonwealth National."
Patrick:
I forgot about that one---it is pretty good. I know Palmer likes to fly but I always thought it was a bit of overkill that he designed the Willow Grove A-10, Warthog airbase along the left side of the first and second hole. Those damn Warthogs have got to be the loudest things on earth. I used to hear OK until a couple of years ago when one of those monsters floored it off the line and blasted off right next to the 2nd green when I was trying to putt.
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Pat
What "fine tuning" did you have in mind for Commonwealth? The ownership brought in Seay and the project architect, Erik Larsen, to look at the course in its 10th year. I'd be interested in your comments as a former member of the Advisory Board and Golf Committee.
Steve
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River's Edge in Shallotte, NC is very good.
I like Eagle Watch in Woodstock, GA a lot, though I doubt if many/any outside the immediate area have ever heard of it.
Cherokee Run in Conyers, GA is good in most estimations, though I was not as fond of it as many are.
The Palmer courses that I have seen, and admittedly that is a relatively small sample of the total, are very playable, built for a mid-level clientele, and not courses that you would quickly tire of playing. They don't seem to stir a lot of passion, which I guess locates them in the market in a particular niche. It isn't a niche without merit, though.
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Any votes for Arbor Links, south of Omaha, NE? I've only played the course once, but enjoyed it. It was a steal at $35 + $15 for a caddie.
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Matt,
When Laurel Creek first opened the members just teed off on the old 8th because of convenience to the original Farmhouse/Clubhouse. Some would choose to drive out to the actual 1st and play from there.
Since then, the nines have been reversed, so now there is a much more difficult finish.
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I like Eagle Watch in Woodstock, GA a lot, though I doubt if many/any outside the immediate area have ever heard of it.
Cherokee Run in Conyers, GA is good in most estimations, though I was not as fond of it as many are.
A.G.,
I remember playing Eagle Watch in the early '90's when it was one of the "big" new courses in the Atlanta scene. Some good holes here and there, but I never quite got it.
Cherokee Run is a pretty extreme piece of property. Nice enough course but God help you if you're walking! Some of the fairway and green complexes that were built up and secured by massive rock walls look wild.
Ken
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Steve Shaffer,
For starters, I'd widen the end of the 18th fairway and/or take out the trees on the left side of that LZ.
I'd mow some of the rough short and long of the water on # 3 to fairway.
On # 15 I'd eliminate the overhanging trees on the right if they're still there, and, if possible, add a back tee to avoid letting the better golfers cut the dogleg, absent the trees.
# 6 is one of my favorite holes.
A great driving and approach hole, especially with a hole cut to the right side of the green.
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Pat
The fairway has been widened at the end of 18 but the trees remain to the left. The downhill lie for the last 25-40 yards of the fairway still remains making the approach shot to an elevated green difficult.
The rough was removed to the right of the lake on 3 fairway and the fairway extends, although it is very narrow, to almost the creek in front of the cartpath. Now, short hitters don't have to lay up into rough. The previous setup was very unfair to women golfers.
The tree still overhangs on the right on 15. I don't think there is any room to add another tee back in the wetlands. In order to eliminate the danger of cutting the dogleg and having errant tee shots bombard players on 16 green, as can be the case, ownership explored the possibility of redoing 16 and moving the green into the wetlands to the left where it was originally designed to be. This idea was rejected because of cost and/or wetlands remediation concerns.
6 is a great hole regardless of where the pin is located. The trees flanking both sides of the fairway make the drive, as on most holes at Commonwealth, of the utmost accuracy.
The road to the left of 1,2&3 has been eliminated and grassed over.
Seay and Larsen both liked what they saw during their visit and Seay remarked that he forgot how good the course was and it matured nicely.
Imagine how difficult Commonwealth would be if the greens were like Engineers, for example.
Steve
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I like Deacon's Lodge as well John. Played it in June and was pleasantly suprised. A few very strong holes on the course, and one of my favorite openers. Nice scenery as well.
He has two courses down here in the Dallas/Fort Worth area -Fossil Creek and Twin Creeks. The former is the more interesting of 2 pretty unremarkable efforts.
My in-laws in Wisconsin tout The Bog which I believe his group did. I've never been able to pull myself over there due to better options IMO. It seems to get mixed reviews on this site.
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8)
Ya'll don't get out much do ya?? The Bluffs is a very fine Palmer course near StFrancisville, LA, literally right on the Audubon Trail..
(http://www.thebluffs.com/images/stories/golf/golf_course.jpg)
The Bluffs at St. Francisville
An Arnold Palmer Signature Golf Course
"a collection of gorgeous, challenging golf holes, perhaps the best of any Palmer design. If any Louisiana course comes close to the ambiance and appeal of a laid-back resort like North Carolina's Pinehurst, it's The Bluffs. Architecturally, there's nothing quite like it anywhere else in America, which makes it worth the journey"
Ron Whitten, Golf Digest February 2005
Golf Digest 4 Star Award (****)
Golf Club and Lodge 2004
Golf Digest "Places to Play"
Designated in Golf Digest "Places to Play" North American Guide
2000, 2001 and 2002
Golden Links Award
Received "Golden Links Award" Corporate Meetings and Incentives
2000, 2001 and 2002
How Arnold Palmer Crafted the Course
Arnold Palmer was granted complete freedom to route his golf course at The Bluffs through each of the diverse landscapes of the property, and eight separate routings were staked and walked before the best 18 holes were discovered. Only after the most dramatic golf holes were found was the surrounding residential community planned.
Designed for championship play from Grey tees (over 7,100 yards), the Palmer course at The Bluffs has hosted numerous Louisiana State Championships, the Southeastern Conference Golf Championship, United States Senior Challenge, and several other prestigious events since its opening in 1988. The flexible design makes the course equally enjoyable and challenging for average golfers from its other three sets of tees. Our women members particularly enjoy the Pink tees, which allow them sufficient advantage to play similar shots with similar clubs as the men on nearly every hole.
Links of Interest:
Course Layout
Yardage Guide
Scorecard
Stats
@ http://www.thebluffs.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=26
Never played on a Palmer Course that wasn't fun and offered enough risk-reward for the 5-30 handicapper.. like the Palmer Course at La Cantera, 18th green pic below.. (or our 27 hole Palmer Course at WCC with King-General-Deacon 9's)
(http://www.lacanteragolfclub.com/sites/www.lacanteragolfclub.com/photos/course_image5.jpg)
a quite challenged view of things not to at least give a nod to the "everyman" style of his design group's offerings, they do reflect the man.
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Bette and I thought Deacon's Lodge was the best Palmer course we had ever played, excellent topography.
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Steve Shaffer,
I"m glad to hear about those modifications.
As I said earlier, I like the golf course.
What I liked about the tees on 15 was how they created them as mini islands in the wetlands, I believe they did the same at # 17. That's why I thought it was possible to create another back tee on # 15.
I ran into Erik Larsen in Florida a few years ago when he was involved in a project in Boca Raton. I commented on how much I liked CN and he mentioned that that was his project.
How much of a debate took place with respect to making
# 13 a par 5 from the very back tee ? It's certainly a very difficult par 4.
TEPaul,
I could watch those wart hogs fly all day long.
They can turn on a dime.
They look to be fun to fly
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Pat
Re 13 at Commonwealth
IMO 13 is a 4.5 par.The debate on 13 was interesting. The lower handicappers favored maintaining it as a par 4 from the 440 white tees and 460? from the blues. There wasn't that much discussion about changing it to 5par because the tee shot carry would have been significant for the higher handicappers.The higher handicappers favored keeping it as a 4par but moving the white tee up to 380-400 AND enlarging the green. The eventual compromise was to keep at as a 4par with tees at 400-410 from the whites and 440 from the blues and NOT enlarge the green even though Seay/Larsen said that it could be done very easily. The way back tees remain at 475. From the original white tees, given the lake in front of the small green, it was a very difficult hole for higher handicappers.
The hole remains a 5par for women.
Steve
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Paul — I recall the uphill trek (No. 11 at Tralee), but the pursuit of the green was interesting. So, I disagree that it is an uninteresting hole. Also, I recall a stone wall guarding the right. It formed a hazard at the approach if you were not in a decent alignment. The hole was brutal, but that can be a good quality for a course to sport occasionally.
http://www.traleegolfclub.com/newgolf/indexmwhite.htm (http://www.traleegolfclub.com/newgolf/indexmwhite.htm)
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Steve:
That 13th hole at Commonwealth was always really hard for this scratch player because I was just a bit too short for it. Off even a good drive I recall just trying to hit the ball just a bit left of the green and just trying to chip and one putt. #9 could be sort of too long for me too as I guess #18 could be too. Despite all that I was pretty good at doing what I used to call "sneaking up on those long par 4s before they saw me coming." ;)
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The Bluffs in St Francisville, La
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I haven't played it yet, but The Prospector Course at Suncadia in Roslyn WA (near Doak's Tumble Creek) is supposed to be quite good.
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The Pines at Sanctuary Cove remains one of the better courses on the Gold Coast.
IMO - Tralee was OK - nothing overly great though a solid course all the same.
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How many of these golf courses were actually designed by AP ?
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the classic club in palm springs is good. and i agree that bay creek and aviara are pretty good. pga west palmer's last 5 holes are pretty good.
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Paul — I recall the uphill trek (No. 11 at Tralee), but the pursuit of the green was interesting. So, I disagree that it is an uninteresting hole. Also, I recall a stone wall guarding the right. It formed a hazard at the approach if you were not in a decent alignment. The hole was brutal, but that can be a good quality for a course to sport occasionally.
This hole was "softened" by Donald Steel, making it a little less blind, so it's possible the two of you are not discussing exactly the same hole. Steel also reduced the severity (craziness) of a few other back nine holes. From a conversation with Ed Seay I'd say Arnold should get neither the credit (nor the blame) for Tralee.
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I liked Tralee, although the place was overrun with UTenn alums the day I was there...and it was not up to the standard of the West-Coast classics like Ballybunion, Waterville, Rosses Point, Carne, etc...who knows if that is possible anyways..
I also like Mid-South in So. Pines, the artist formerly known as Plantation. It's not the greatest course by any stretch, but I thought it a bit better than Talamore and National at least.
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Brad I really like Tralee as well. However, the course is somewhat disfunctional in flow. There are some great golf holes and it is a kick to play. I can see where a bunch of Tenn guys would put the chill on the golf experience eh Bogie.
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8)
How about "The Carolina" in Southern Pines.. solid classic layout and features for courses in that Sand Hills geographical setting
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How many of these golf courses were actually designed by AP ?
Patrick:
I've been beating this dead horse for years on here! It's like evaluating the cars that William Clay Ford, Jr. designs. His name is on the company, so he must be responsible for the Mustang ;D
The better discussion might be whether people could discern differences in the courses designed by Erik, Harrison, Vicki, et al. That would be a fun exercise. Could someone tell who designed the various courses? Or is the formula and training so similar that it's not perceptible?
And you already know the answer to your question ;)