Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: peter_p on July 21, 2006, 12:45:23 AM
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Is there any chance that a US course will be built that consistently uses this feature? I only know of two courses which use them sporadically -Arcadia Bluffs and Bandon Dunes.
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Peter,
Bill Robinson used them effectively at Ocean Dunes and Salishan. Also, many of the bunkers at Rustic Canyon are sod faced/reveted. Not tall but that's the way Gil builds a lot of his bunkers four or five layers or more of sod. when they get old and break apart, it looks as if they are directly from a Tom Simpson drawing.
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I drove past the "Ocean Dunes" sign in Florence Oregon twice in the past few days (Portland-Bandon-Eugene) and was very curious but time-challenged. Sandpines is obviously underrated on this board, but what about Ocean Dunes? Can anyone give me a two paragraph review? There are indeed a lot of dunes in the area, but is the ocean in the immediate vicinity?
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Bill,
Ocean Dunes is about a mile to mile and a half, directly above Sandpines. It was owned by Architect Bill Robinson, a former partner of Geoffrey Cornish, who relocated to Florence in the late 1980's and did some minor work on the Oregon coast. His original designs were the Members Course at Tukwilla, which is actually a pretty enjoyable course to play and a kick to walk. He also remodeled Gearhart Beach and Salishan Beach. I thought his changes at Salishan were pretty darn good.
At Ocean Dunes, Robinson took a run down 9-hole semi-private course that was on life support and created some fairly interesting golf. He also purchased a couple rows of dunes that ran along city water department property which gave him the room he needed to expand the course to a full 18 holes. The property featured many natural blowouts which were not utilized to their fullest in my opinion. Still the golf is more interesting then Sandpines. I've probably played the course twenty or more times, and I would surely go back again, simply because of the possibilities of the site.
From start to finish, you can't help to think what this property could have really been like if in the hands of a really good designer, and that's not to discredit Robinson who did the best he could with what he had when he got there.
The par 4, 5th maybe a lost opportunity in regards to building a natural Alps-like hole. He in fact built something similar, and it works, but because of the wind, it is close to impossible to even keep sand in the bunkers on that portion of the property. I was fortunate to have Mr. Robinson show me this himself in person on successive days.
I think the par 3's are a kick, and the short par 4's even more challenging. the course maintains a good balance of holes, albeit a tad bit too repeticious in some spots. Still the holes work and if I was going to compare it to Sandpines, I would probably say 8-2, maybe 7-3 out out of 10 rounds. But only because of wanting to try something different.
I'll try to post some images later.
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"He in fact built something similar, and it works, but because of the wind, it is close to impossible to even keep sand in the bunkers on that portion of the property."
Sorry for belaboring the point, but this is why links bunkers are sod-faced; the sod-face retains the sand when the wind is howling, thereby preventing blow out (in theory).
Peter
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I believe, though I am not positive that Donald Steele's (sp?) course in Rhode Island, oh crap! the name escapes at the moment has many/most sod wall bunkers.
"when they get old and break apart, it looks as if they are directly from a Tom Simpson drawing."
Tommy: sorry but it hit me instantly when I read your quote above, when you get old and break apart will you look like an old classic painting or drawing or will you look like?...well you know where I am going with this ;D
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I believe The Gailes in Oscoda, MI near Lake Huron uses them as well...unsure why there isn't much talk about this course...
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Is there any chance that a US course will be built that consistently uses this feature? I only know of two courses which use them sporadically -Arcadia Bluffs and Bandon Dunes.
Would this be considered good or bad if a course used them consistently???
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Nate,
The course is on the wrong side of the state is all. If I ever make to that side I look forward to playing it.
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.....thinking about using [experimenting] with some on the pacifico coastico in Mexico, using paspalum.
...got some strong winds thereabout....if sod don't work, then cross ties better.
..although the thread asked for US courses, I want to see how close to the equator that a revetted bunker might survive or thrive.....paspalum might be the key [although sun orientation might be a strong factor when designing]....ya think?
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I don't know how many they have at Hoylake. Along with the wind they are the primary defense on most of the course. If you want to defend par and hate the lake overkill, why not use them.
Will the fourth course at Bandon have them as the predominent theme? I don't know. Would any client want them to dominate the course? While they are very good in windy conditions, that doesn't mean they couldn't be built anywhere. While expensive to rebuild, it's probably a lot easier and cheaper on daily maintenance.
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My father said that the new Greg Norman-designed Tennessee National course has them.
Come to think of it, I think Norman uses them in a few instances at the Barefoot course which bears his name. His course The Reserve in Litchfield Beach, SC has a couple as well, if I remember correctly. Did he use sod walls on the original bunkers on the Great White at Doral?
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I am on my way to Ocean Dunes right now. Ill take some pics and post them when I get back.
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Pete Dye and Greg Norman used them at The Medalist.
I liked them, even though they were in south Florida.
However, what makes them more appealing is when the nearby land is contoured to feed into them.
That requires superior drainage.
That factor alone might preclude their use.
In addition, the fairway grass that feeds them must be kept short to accomodate roll.
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I believe, though I am not positive that Donald Steele's (sp?) course in Rhode Island, oh crap! the name escapes at the moment has many/most sod wall bunkers.
"when they get old and break apart, it looks as if they are directly from a Tom Simpson drawing."
Tommy: sorry but it hit me instantly when I read your quote above, when you get old and break apart will you look like an old classic painting or drawing or will you look like?...well you know where I am going with this ;D
You are thinking of Carnegie Abbey. Steel & Tom MacKenzie used them (quite effectively) at The Vineyard Club, a very underrated wholly-organic course on Martha's Vineyard
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I doubt the fourth course at Bandon will have many sod-wall bunkers. Mr. Keiser is not a big fan of them, he says the retail golfer does not enjoy getting stuck up against a straight face.
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I installed one next to the green in my back yard. Does that count? ;D
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I think the failure here is to somehow restrict thinking to "sod" in facing bunkers. The reason for sod is to stabilize a face and prevent it from crumbling.
Hurdzan tried old carpet scraps once...I cannot recall where.
Sleepers are viable, and they do nicely. Except for the texture, they provide the same challenge to play and the same effect of retaining earth.
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Cherokee Plantation (Donald Steele) has sod walled bunkers, along with Oldfield and TPC Sugerloaf, (Norman) and Secession.
Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC