Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Mitch Hantman on July 16, 2006, 04:35:52 PM
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I'm wondering what this tree house feels is Jack's best course.
I would eliminate Muirfield Village, due to Desmond Muirhead being at least codesigner, if not the main architect at that point in time. Since it was not completely designed originally by Jack, it would not count as 'his' best.
I recently played one of his courses that I will nominate as the best of Jack's that I've ever played, but I'll wait to hear the others' suggestions first........................
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To me, it has to be Shoal Creek. Wandering back and forth through the valley of Double Oak "Mountain," I think its a great layout. I also think that the PGA issue has hurt its perception as great golf course. If you look at the rankings the year before and after, it took a huge hit.
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I doubt that its his best, but Sycamore Hills deserves to at least be mentioned, its pretty darn good for not making any of the lists anymore. Quite a few good holes, with 7, 8, 15, and 16 being my favorites.
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Shoal Creek, Muirfield Village, Sebonack and Mayacama come to mind. This should be a clue as to the lack of top quality work despite great sites to work with. Jim Lipe did most of the work on Mayacama(which is a tough site), Jim Lipe reportedly did most of the work on their side at Sebonack and Desmond Muirhead did most of the work at Muirfield Village.
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I agree with Tiger. Isn't it interesting that when you look back at his work there is a lot of very good, but not many great. I would likely put Mayacama at the top of the list.
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Doesn't Team Jack have a home run laying on the ground at Pronghorn? I haven't seen it....
Joe
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I am going to go out on a limb here and say that I believe I did at least as much on Sebonack as the late, great Mr. Muirhead did at Muirfield Village. In fact, I would bet I could get Mr. Nicklaus to agree with that statement! So, you should probably disqualify Sebonack from the discussion as well.
I haven't seen Mayacama. I've always put Muirfield Village #1 on Jack's list. If that doesn't count, I'll vote for the Ocean Course at Cabo del Sol -- I think Jim Lipe was the lead associate there, as well. I liked that better than Pronghorn, although they had a pretty good head start with all the coastline.
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I really love Cabo del Sol's Ocean Course. The holes fronting the Sea of Cortez get a lot of the publicity, but there are some excellent inland holes as well. You are presented with many options throughout and must really commit to your line on the tee shot. You can really be rewarded by taking a more aggressive line.
The stretch from 4-8 is top notch, #5 is one of my favorite par 4's. #11 is an excellent driveable par 4 if you catch the right wind. #13 may be the best par 3 on the course, although the others on the water get most of the hype. And, 16-18 is an excellent finish to the course.
The fish tacos at the turn are a very nice touch as well!
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My vote would go to Castle Pines, home of the International. Probably a little biased since I'm from Colorado......
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For the sake of discussion on this thread, I am looking for Jack's solo designs, not the ones he did with Muirhead or Tom Doak. Obviously, Nicklaus design group includes others in his company, so that still counts as Jack's effort.
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Jimmy,
I was really disappointed with Cabo del Sol, as the stretch of ocean holes have become heavily developed, with some holes being altered and the pace of development along the coastline looks pretty disconcerting as well. At least they are not going to follow El Dorado's approach and eliminate it full bore.
Not crediting MV does not make a lot of sense when the argument could be made for Cupp, Moorish and Lipe at different points too. Choosing from the courses that bear his name, MV is the best with Cabo, Glen Abbey, Mayacama, etc in a class below.
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I have a soft spot for Glen Abbey - mostly because it's the first really good course I was ever able to play. I think it may be his first solo design effort.
The holes down in the vallley are quite good - I especially liked 12 and 13.
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I want to note I have not been to Sebonack nor do I have a clue as to the responsibilty breakdown between the firms were. I just was told Jim Lipe was the Jack guy on the project.
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Ben,
I'm disappointed to hear about the development around the Ocean Course in Cabo. I was last there 3 years ago and there was very little development at all around the course. Some new development had just been finished on the left side of #5 and I was afraid that more was to come, it sounds like it definitely has.
Jimmy
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How about Valhalla ? Some here love Valhalla.
What was extent of JN at Harbour Town ? Very minor consultant only, or contributor wrt/ greens & routing , or what ? I am asking. Was this JN's first time to have participated in a design and have his name attached to a course ? This would still be in Jack's playing prime, design/built circa 1967-68. His name always seems to be listed but imagine his participation would have not been significant.
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John: I believe Jack Nicklaus made more than twenty trips to Harbour Town. But he was still a design consultant, Pete Dye made the final call on stuff.
Actually, I asked Pete about it once. He said that Jack had a lot of input ... but so did Alice, and so did Charles Price, and come to think of it the routing had been done by George Cobb and Pete changed only the 18th hole. So you could put a pretty long credit list on the course if you wanted to ... but just remember who was out there every day making the final decisions.
Valhalla wouldn't be in my Nicklaus top 10.
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Dye okayed all but one of Cobb's decisions on the routing. Seems like it would be Dye/Cobb and the rest mopped up and closed out the registers.
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Valhalla wouldn't be in my Nicklaus top 10.
Tom,
I'm just curious, how about Sycamore Hills? I've only played that and one other Nicklaus course (Bear Trace @ Cumberland Mtn for what its worth), plus Harbour Town which I always associated more with Pete Dye. Is it one of his better ones? Not even close?
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Ben,
I am not trying to take away Muirfield Village from Jack's portfolio, just trying to find opinions on Jack's best that he, or his design firm alone, created. Clearly Muirhead was the key man at that time. Jack has made many, many changes over the years, but I'm looking for his own creations.
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Of the ones I have played:
Early Nicklaus: Shoal Creek and Castle Pines
Recent Nicklaus: Pronghorn
Please don't start a thread asking us to name Jack's worse course.
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Well, here's the reason I asked the question in the first place:
I just played The Concession, in Bradenton, Fl. It is Jack's best course that I've played. It is that good. I haven't played all the above ones mentioned, but I have played most of them. It is worth going out of your way to play. It is clearly the best west coast of Florida course, in this guy's opinion.
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I like Whispering Pines in Texas.
I have been to MV and HT and would need to visit them again to spell out the differences between the three.
Cheers
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Has Jack ever routed a course? If so, which? Has he ever designed a course, to the same extent Doak has?
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One of the new Nicklaus designs The Concession must be given some condsideration. Unlike many of Nicklaus' designs many holes do not look or play like they were designed by Nicklaus. ;)
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I played it once over 10 years ago, so I do not know what I would think of it today, but what about the Great Waters Course at Reynolds Plantation? I remember enjoying it.
Does Desert Highlands not qualify for the list? I enjoyed that course a lot.
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Jason,
As far as I know, it was Nicklaus' design team alone. I don't know of any other architects that shared in the project. It counts for the purposes of this discussion.
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I would imagine that I have to wait for the Nicklaus' Worst Design thread to come up for Country Club of the North. ;D This course has to be among the biggest flops in the last 15 or so years. Anyway, I would say the Village is my favorite Nicklaus, with Harbour Town right there if they count. Does anyone else think that The Concession is going a little to far for that incident? Seems like a lot for what took place to me, an entire golf course?
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The thread originated with his solo design efforts, so MV and Harbor Town not included in this thread.
Fair argument that to build an entire course around a two foot putt may be over the top, it at least gets the place an original name.
What's next, Provisional G & CC? Embedded Ball Links?
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Mitch,
I like the sound of Provisional. ;D Your Honor, Your Honor Country Club would be my favorite though. ;D
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Would have to list Muirfield and The Ocean Course in a dead heat... Being from the general area I love the feel of Muirfield Village and golf on the ocean has its own allure. Both are compelling designs.
I have not seen Mayacama but may be heading that way soon to check out what I understand is an excellent, and difficult course.
To respond to a couple of questions/comments about The Ocean Course at Cabo del Sol. Jim Lipe came in in the middle of the project as lead associate and continues to be the point person for any tweaks made to the course while Jack comes in frequently as well and has spent a fair amount of time reviewing the course for potential changes that he has a standing invitation to propose.
We have implemented a number of such changes that range from bunker addition #3, #18 & #16 to green relocation at #16 and continue to entertain broader changes that have the potential to be incredible.
If you take away Muirfield I'd then say
Cabo del Sol and Mayacama stand apart from the rest. Perhaps May River as well (again relying on relatively credible sources for that).