Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: TEPaul on May 31, 2006, 05:01:16 PM
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I should be able to think of some of the clubs that've gone to the old up and back fairway cut but anyway would you guys mind reminding me of some of them, preferably in the Northeast.
We want to do it but me and our super have a few questions of those who do it about turning.
Thanks
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1999 Ryder Cup at TCC.
Last time I was at Huntington Country Club, (2002) they had it and it looked fantastic. It is my personal favorite.
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Huntington Country club...Glenn Creutz, GCS
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We do it occasionally...it's quick and it looks good.
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Tom,
The ones that I know of that have when I was there or seen on TV are the following
-NGLA, Friars Head, East Hampton, Yale, Shinnecock, Maidstone, The Black, Merion, Wykagyl CC and The Creek.
We do it alot (2-3x per week) and I like the look-it keeps things from getting too busy looking!
Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
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Tommy,
This may sound strange, but I think we do. Is it bad for a memory to be this bad at 31? You obviously know how to get to Scott, and I can assure you that we have done it in the fairly recent past if we are not doing it right now so he'll have some input. Maybe even input as to why we are no longer doing it (if that is the case, that is). ??? :-\ ;D
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First time I ever really noticed it was the US Senior Open at Salem a few years ago.
Shinnecock had it at the recent Open (I think).
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Craig:
Our super is primarily concerned about turf wear from tires as the machines turn around bunkers and such. I guess the turning near the approaches is a concern too but it seems to be mostly around bunkers even now with the striping.
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Schuylkill Country Club in Orwigsburg, PA
All the Bethpage Courses.
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TEPaul...when you say up and back are you thinking "2 stripe" or are you talking about mowing "with" the direction of the hole?
A two stripe mow job leaves 1/2 the fairway "dark" and 1/2 "light" and requires less turning, in reality and gives the fairway that old gang mower look.
When we mow "with"...in the direction the hole runs, yes, there is much turning, especially in front of the green....
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Tom,
Too many to count but we do at BHCC.
Here is Lookout Mountain GC, Dormant.
(http://foothillgreens.com/lookout/aDSCN0167.jpg)
a thread on the subject...
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=20717;start=0
Cheers,
Steve
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Tom,
I just noticed you had started that thread, misplaced it?
Steve
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Philmont north and south went to it this year. The Elks Club down the road from Penn State has it. Did anyone say Eastward Ho yet?
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Bill, Here it is at Eastward Ho!
(http://www.foothillgreens.com/EastwardHo/DSCN2712.jpg)
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TEPaul;
We here at Bandon are not in your neighborhood (we are NE of Hawaii, though) but all the fairways here are mowed in the 'block' style.......half light, half dark. Little or no tire damage.
Tom
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TEPaul:
One possible negative factor of the "up and back" pattern is the impact on strategy. At Bay Hill in the early '90's, they were still mowed in an up and back pattern. On shorter holes where you may hit less than driver off the tee, good players might aim at the down grain half so that the ball was lying down grain for the wedge apprroach. I learned that trick from one of our Tour player members, and once I started doing it, it definitely made a difference on how well you could control your ball.
But I bet you already thought of that aspect......
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Do courses that use this pattern alternate which side is "dark" and which side is "light"? If so, how often should the mow pattern be reversed?
Cheers,
Brad
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Brad,
We mow this pattern, and rotate direction each week (3-4 mowings per week). This way the grain and visual is minimized.
Joe
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Aronimink does this now and when I played Winged Foot West last summer they did it too. I like the look of it.
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I'm really out of my element when the topic is maintenance or agronomy but here goes....
It seems that when done with modern, light weight equipment, up and back mowing would be easier on the grass because of fewer, wider turns.
I would liken it to a Zamboni resurfacing the ice at a hockey game- long, lazy ovals.
Perhaps Phil Benedict knows better than I, but I think the CC of Waterbury in CT does the up and back thing. know they used to- forty years ago.
Would the mowing happen in opposite directions on alternate mowing days?
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The up and back fairway cut has been in use at Shinnecock Hills Golf Club since the beginning. We have taken it a step futher this year when we started mowing our tees with the same light and dark mowing pattern. This seems to give us a more traditional look from the top of the hill as well as on the tee box.
Adam Jessie
Asst. Superintendent
Shinnecock Hills Golf Club
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Lu Lu often has the up and back mowing patters in the fairways.
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Adam..I like it! We built 4 new tee's last fall and I started mowing them this spring with the two stripe pattern....now that we have opened them for play they are being mowed more conventionally. :(
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It seems to me that there is way less wear and tear on the golf course....it doesn't take as long as some mowing patterns, and I would think there's fuel savings as well.
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Tom,
I would make sure the mowers turn with a 3 point turn to minimize wear and tear. Up/Back is a classic look that is not understood by most golfers. Most seem to prefer the diamond striping that distracts from the game.
Troy
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Troy:
A three point turn?
I'm sure our super knows what that means but I don't. If you started on the outside right of the fairway, for instance, wouldn't you turn gradually and go back down on the inside of the other half etc, etc, etc to keep the turning as gradual as possible?
As an historicaly note, about a year ago I was talking to Matt Shaeffer of Merion about the old up and back gang mowers and I believe he said he noticed some bulging out in certain areas near approaches on the old aerials and he figured that must have been the old gangs swinging wide near the approaches to go back the other way on the other half of the fairway. He also said he noticed on some of the old aerials all kinds of interesting mow paths from the gangs between fairways on Merion West. He figured the old gang operators just weren't getting off and disengaging the reels.
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Tom
A three point turn is exactly as it is in a car. You reverse back, go forward, reverse back, gently turning all the time and your then in position for your next cut. Saves one sharp turn that will tear the grass.
From the south west UK. I’ve been mowing up and back for years now. In fact, this year I have taken yet another step ‘backwards’ and have sharpened up the old trailed gang mowers and I go out mowing with them. They are about thirty years old but are quicker, more fuel efficient and personally I just love doing the job first thing in the morning or late in the evening when there’s no golf about. Sure you don’t get the cuts per yard and we have to mow at ¾ inch but they rip through rye grass better than anything.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/058460/viewfromnew8th2jpg.jpg)
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One of the concerns of our super is the wear from turning around some of the sharper angles of fairway bunkering. But I would think the diagonal or multi stripe pattern wouldn't solve that problem---perhaps make it even worse than the up and back pattern----eg you're doing a lot more turning with the diagonal stripe pattern compared to the up and back---correct?
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Tom...as you can see from the photo's most bunkers are rounded...and most have a "collar" of deeper grass around them....I know this isn't the case with all bunkers....
My experience is you do less damage mowing in this manner than you do when you mow diagonally across...
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Adam,
I first heard of this from your course from the 95 Open. How do you mow approaches? The USGA has done this at Salem for the Seniors and at the Orchards for the Women. I wonder if its modern tournament use stems from Shinny in 95?
Marc,
So do you mow exclusively with the gangs? I was thinking about going the same route but was worried about the long grass in the subtle imperfections.
Steve
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Marc,
So do you mow exclusively with the gangs? I was thinking about going the same route but was worried about the long grass in the subtle imperfections.
Steve
Steve,
If I may interject....
I mow fairways with a gang mower. But, I follow up with a lightweight around the edges and my par 3's. I think the cut of the gang (leaving varying lengths of grass in the subtleties) adds a little twist that challenges the golfer to read his or her lie when the get to the shot at hand.
Joe
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Steve.
We have a lot of long grass in the subtle imperfections but I’ve managed to call it character. There are a couple of short holes where the gangs can’t get to and we mow Mondays with a ride-on as well but otherwise it’s exclusively gangs. A tractor and a set of gangs cost about the same as a standard 7 unit ride on and they will last about twenty years instead of what, five? Also no hydraulic leaks!
Other downsides are the need for regular bed knife to reel adjustment, skilled judgement of the gang width and also the fact that the tractor tyres can flatten the grass before it’s cut especially when wet. But for my needs, which is a mid range, high usage 27 hole commercially run course on 300 acres, they really fit the bill.
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Thanks very much to all the respondents. I stopped over at Aronimink tonight and I believe I learned every single thing one needs to know about the up and back fairway cut in my region from Aronimink's John Goesselin. What he's doing in that vein I'm sure anyone would envy. :)
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Mark,
Great photo.
Tom, Tell us more about what you learned.
Steve
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The up and back cut is gaining more prevalence. From an aesthetic point of view, it is wonderful camoflage, especially on the southern courses where the downgrain is hidden & merges with the fairway to make them appear smaller.
I am surprised that the clubs with resources haven't gone to gang mowing from green to tee to minimize roll.
The diamond cut, while visually striking, does not meet my eye on a game that is played in nature.
When mowing in circles, a la a zamboni at an ice rink, is the tendency to unintentionally bring the fairways in from the hazards to speed mowing times?
JWK
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Besides that fact that Muirfield Village is using furrowed rakes in the bunkers, Paul Latshaw, CGCS, has also changed the mowing pattern inthe fairways. MV used to triplex their fairways in a checkboard pattern-Upon viewing this year's tournament, everything is mowed from tee to green in one direction, actually HELPING players get more ball roll. I don't care for that look at Muirfield as I don't believe that it's the "type" of course that warrents that style mowing pattern. Comments....?
Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
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Tony -
With all the rain that Muirfield Village gets, the tee to green pattern wont help the boys a bit.
I noticed Secession uses the up and back fairway cut. Although I have been to HT 12 consecutive years for the Heritage, I have never seen Long Cove. Do you use the same pattern.
JWK
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Anthony, Paul is mowing one way for agronomic reasons first. The playability and the aesthetics are merely a byproduct.
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John,
What would those argronomic reasons be-Turning in the rough? Just a guess....
HT usually only mows on angles, but that's also resort golf and that's more appealing to most. We mow every direction here at LCC, left to right, right to left, up and down, dark and light and even side to side. We do this to reduce any grain in the fairways.
Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
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Criag Sweet - You are right it is saving on fuel and labor. The time to mow our tees was shortened by almost forty minutes for two people.
Steve Curry - Looking at all the old photos from the club that mowing pattern has been in place since the clubs begining. Mr. Paul was correct when he spoke about the gang mowers producing that mowing pattern. Also with our course witht the movement we have in the fairways it would be almost imposssible to produce quality stripes on some our our holes, especially #9 and 10.
Thanks,
Adam Jessie
Shinnecock Hills Golf Club
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"Tom, Tell us more about what you learned.
Steve:
SteveC:
I'd be glad to.
The first thing I learned is if one asks Ron Prichard to be extremely honest about one's golf course before taking him out to see it, one can be damn sure he will get some very honest opinions. ;)
We wanted to do the up and back cut, or I did a while ago, but with all the other things going on that got sort of lost in the mix. Ron certainly put that idea back on the table and that's why I started this thread.
I learned a few things from this thread but for some details and mechanics of how to do this I learned all I think we need to know from John Goesslin of Aronimink the other night.
I just went over there the other evening when they were mowing and prepping the course for a tournament.
My super was primarily concerned about damage to the turf turning around bunkers and such.
John explained that he's doing the up and back for agronomic reasons and surely one of those is the fact that he doesn't need to turn app 200 times in the rough with the diagaonal cut pattern.
I guess my super thought with the up and back he'd have to mow around the bunkers a few times but John just goes right at his bunkers straight, picks up the mowers and travels around the first cut and drops them back down in a straight line on the other side.
Then apparently a no tread (smooth tire) mower makes the clean up pass on the outsides.
John also has a series of dots on the edge of the fairways into the fairway/approach transition that can vary the point of turn back by maybe 10-15 yards.
He also varies the up and back sides frequently, as well as using the "samboni" method of wide turning at the approach end.
I'm not sure there is anything more to know. I know my club will accept this as soon as I mention this will be a time, manpower and cost savings but the added good news is it more agronomically more friendly and of course on old courses it just looks so much more traditional.
On another note, John Goesslin has Aronimink looking about as good (firm and fast) as any golf course needs to be for any reason or event. Hopefully that club knows how lucky they are to have him. I saw one of their bigwigs somewhere in the last few weeks and I asked him if he realized that and he just said. "Oh yeah, I sure do." ;) He's become one of my top "go to" guys for any maintenance question or advice at all.
To me collaboration is the name of the game. My super and John will be speaking about this.
That's what I learned.
And I also learned, once again, how little I know about maintenance and agronomy. But I have the tel #s of about fifty great supers in my cell phone.---and I use them ;)
I think my respect for really good golf course superintendency has frankly just about matched or probably passed my respect for some of the best architects I know.
You guys who are really great supers are just amazing to me, and the ones who truly understand the nuances and particularly the histories and evolution of golf architecture and "playability" too are definitely the most valuable asset any club can have, by about a country mile. ;)
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Tom,
Thanks, Good stuff.
Does anyone know did Shinnecock revive this cut by doing it for the Open in 95? I seem to recall that this was news?
Best,
Steve
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Steve:
Acording to Shinnecock's Adam Jessie Shinnecock has always, always, always used the up and back fairway mowing method. I've been there so infrequently over the decades I just don't remember that or not. Adam should know though---that guy is really into architecture and is very good at it. He had probably the most to do with the bunkers.
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Tom,
No, I know Shinnecock has always done that, my point, question is were they the cause of the trend by having it cut that way for the Open in 95? I remember being surprised that they were not cross cutting??
Steve
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"Tom,
No, I know Shinnecock has always done that, my point, question is were they the cause of the trend by having it cut that way for the Open in 95? I remember being surprised that they were not cross cutting??
Steve"
Steve:
I don't know about that but if I were to hazard a guess (or is it to "through the green" a guess?) I might say the trend started with the popularity of restorations in the last decade or so.
There's no question that when architects and clubs look at old pre-WW2 aerials of their courses all they will ever see is that old up and back fairway pattern. That's just the only way those old gang mowers could do it, I guess.
Even if they could've done the cross cut or diagonal pattern can you imagine what it would do to the roughs trying to turn one of those things about 50-60 times per hole in the rough lines? It would likely make a total mess of the rough.
Mark Michaud who is a helluva super thought he was into a good thing when he went from Pebble to Shinnecock before the Open there. But little did Mark know that despite how rich those Shinnecock members may be they are the cheapest people on earth with their golf course. Immediately following the Open they told Mark to get rid of all that expensive mowing equipment they had going into the Open and go out and pick up one or two old 1940s tractors and some old used gangs. So even if Mark wanted to do the cross-cut fairways he isn't able to now. ;)
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I am a new guy so someone let me know if this is "thread jacking". Does anyone know (or care to speculate) how WF's fairways will be mown for the Open? I recall in '97 both Congressional's and WF's fairways were mown by hand. I wondered if the PGA had WF's mown that way in response to the USGA doing Congressional that way.
At any rate, I wish my club would use the "up and back" and will ask our supers about this.
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We just did this cut for the first time at French Creek and the look was so classic. Gil was out yesterday PM and loved the look.
Now all we need to do is convince our super that it's the right way to go in the future.
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Guys, you want to get your clubs to use the up and back fairway cut? Tell them it's cheaper, less man hours and better for the agronomy---because all that is true. If that doesn't convince them I just don't know what to say except maybe pull out your .45 the way I do at my club if I'm not getting my way.
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..... pull out your .45 the way I do at my club if I'm not getting my way.
Tom,
Is that length or diameter? ;D
Joe
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For the mowing thread's sake. I wanted to see the picture of Marc's course too. Mine is whitish and icey at the moment. I can believe in climate change at the moment, but global warming, not so much. ::)
Steve
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Bump. I find the new search works much better.
Cheers,
Steve
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Tom
I belive Aronimink actually cuts 1-way, that is it looks like they mow towards the golfer, thus making it look dark from the tee, and if you look back from the green it is all light. I'm not sure if this is intentional, making the ball not run out as much on the tee shot, but I found it very interesting on my last trip up there this year. It made the fairways stand out dramatically, and as you eluded to, John does an absolute fantasic job with the conditioning up there at AGC.
We are considering going to "2-Tone" fairways at Hidden Creek directly after our Fall aeration after Labor Day, so I would be intersted in your findings, maybe you could email me off line. It seems that the 2-Tone look would be in keeping with the style of course Bill & Ben have given us, and we are eager to implmement it to see how it affects the "look" of the course. We keep the fairways fairly tight, so I don't imagine you are going to have prefernetial lies based on which side you find yourself on, it is just a look we are trying to achieve, to further "age" the course, in keeping with many of the greats of the North-East that are mentioned above.
I was up at GM just last month, and it seems as though you have already started the process?
Thanks Tom.
Ian
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Ian:
Certainly that "up and back" (light and dark) fairway cut represents a return to the look of an era. It was the result of those really wide tractor drawn mowers back then.
I don't think it makes much difference about "rollout" which side you hit but if golfers actually think that I think it's basically an added psyhcological dimension (even if it probably isn't very true).
One thing I believe really helps though is with that cut pattern (up and back) as opposed to that fussy looking diagonal or diamond pattern is with the former you don't have those mowers turning all the time in the rough and first cut and consequently it's a lot less stressful to the grass in those areas. Tires turning is apparently a lot more damaging than most realize.
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Anyone have any idea where the other similar thread was that provides plenty of ammunition against striping fairways, pretty sure it was within the last year. I continue looking, but to no avail.
Thanks
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Tommy,
This may sound strange, but I think we do. Is it bad for a memory to be this bad at 31? You obviously know how to get to Scott, and I can assure you that we have done it in the fairly recent past if we are not doing it right now so he'll have some input. Maybe even input as to why we are no longer doing it (if that is the case, that is). ??? :-\ ;D
We never did it the summer I was there. But I've played HVCC where it's been done.
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I'm not sure I like the look as much as some others here, but I'm sold on the efficiency/economy aspects that have been cited.
It sure beats the checkerboard, that's for certain.
Interesting to see an earlier mention of Schuylkill CC on this thread....I passed there the other day and just wanted to reiterate that it's a course worth seeing....especially given the maintenance meld and internal attempts at recreating a wonderful heritage of traditional golf.
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Josh,
These are the possible threads??
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30993.0.html
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31181.0.html
Wow I don't think I am finding it.
Sorry,
Steve
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Josh,
These are the possible threads??
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30993.0.html
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31181.0.html
Wow I don't think I am finding it.
Sorry,
Steve
Steve thanks for the help, I was tipped off yesterday that the thread I am looking for might be one about a new course in Washington State with photos. Anyone know which one that was?
Thanks
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We have a new super this year and one of the first things he did was implement the up and back cut. It's absolutely fantastic - much less visual noise and it's better for the turf. The old crosshatch pattern was almost 'burned in' and it took weeks to really get rid of it.
Up and back really gave us a classc look - not bad for a 4-5 year old golf club :)
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Tom,
This is hard to explain in writ but I'll try.
To mitigate wear and tear on the approaches, the approach mowers can mow out to meet the up and down cut of the fairway mower in three different lengths (between the green and the fairway mower cut).
So for each hole that you have an approach and fairway cut that meet, there are three different versions of the approach cut: one that is short, one that is medium, and one that is long in length. You can mark these with small paint dots in the rough.
You switch up the versions every day, so one day one you would be mowing to the short version on hole one, the medium version on hole two, and the long version on hole three and so on. On day two you switch to the medium version on hole one, the long version on hole two, and the short version on hole three.
The paint dots can be set up so that you tell the fairway and approach guys to use the white, the red, or the blue dot today, and they are painted in the field accordingly.