Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci on May 28, 2006, 07:21:25 AM
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Having read "Dream Golf" and gaining some insight into Mike Keiser as a visionary, who will he pick to design the 4th course at Bandon, and why ?
And, who won't he pick, and why ?
Preferably, both questions should be addressed after reading "Dream Golf".
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Pat
I haven't read "Dream Golf" but have a semi-on-topic question? Does the book address how, when and why (Iand even if) Mike Keiser shifted his vision from an affordable replica of the UK/Ireland experience (as the resort was promoted, here and elsewhere, in 2001) to the ROI driven CCFAD it seems to have morphed into--probably due to favorable supply/demand conditions? (Of course, many UK/Ireland courses are now CCFAD's in all but name, too..... :'().
Thanks in advance.
Rich
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Hi Rich,
I must be ignorant but what does CCFAD mean???
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Jon (and others to embarasssed to ask)
country club for a day. It took me 16 months and several thoudands of miles of travel across the world's oceans to learn that one.
James B
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Rich,
I don't want to drag this thread in an unintended direction, so here's a link to a past discussion about the price structure at Bandon:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=16172
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"Rich,
I don't want to drag this thread in an unintended direction,"
Dan:
That's OK, feel free to drag this thread kicking and screaming in any old direction you want. It matters not because whatever anyone says on here Patrick Mucci will automtically try to argue with them anyway.
;)
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....just to make Mike's decision a little easier I'll take my name off the list......I plan on being on sabbatical in Nepal anyway, searching for that damn peacock that confronted me at dawn while camped in the shadow of Ama Dablam....some 20 years and 16,000' of elv ago.....ignoring certain clues is like ignoring Mother Nature.....heyya whoyoho heyya whoyoho heyya whoyoho etc...
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Curiously
First use of CCFAD as an acronym can probably be traced to an origin somewhere on the original Traditionalgolf.com website or GolfWeb architecture discussion group which both preceeded this one and inherited most of the nuts who were there in the 1990's.
OnT:
Purportedly Steve Smyers was one of the last eliminated architects for course #3, so he's likely in the mix. Donald Steele might be a nice addition and so would Kelly Moran, Mike DeVries, Jeff Brauer and Gil Hanse.
Who does the treehouse think has the greatest chance of this group:
Fazio, Jones (either), celebrities (Watson, Els, Player, Palmer etc), Hurdzan & Frye, weiskopf?
I pick one of the first group I mentioned as most likely, but it's not up to me.
I think Keiser's choice of multiple architects is commendable and far superior to multiple by the same archie (Even Coore & Crenshaw). I always wonder how anyone could possibly play Desert Mountain with six by the same design house over and over?
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Looking at the "affordable Bandon" thread again generates thoughtful investigation of the idea of supply and demand. One might propose that when a profit is made could or should it be re-invested in the property to a "greater good"? (What might be perceived as a socialist-inspired manifesto to follow, so ultra-right-wingers, take your hypertension medication NOW, please.)
A true "Labor of Love" would imply that as the resort makes more and more golf available, more capital can be used to create more golf courses and hopefully eventually lead to a decrease in per round costs to the players.
There is a very fine line that would be needed to be walked to do such a thing and I am no one to even suggest to Mr. Keiser that this should be his goal, but I got to thinking about this sort of thing when I was at Bethpage State Park recently. What a place with its five wonderful courses all truly affordable for all (even the out of town rate for W/E at BB is just over $100), an absolutely pastoral place, a magnificent structure for a clubhouse, but THE key is that it is owned by government which makes it ALL PAID FOR and thus the costs are made low.
Bethpage is perhaps truly the St. Andrews of America not Pinehurst which advertises itself as such and is quite honestly financially out of the reach of most golfers other than a once-in-a-lifetime (or marriage :) ) thing.
All that said, Bandon is a better financial proposition for the golfer than Pebble, Kohler or Pinehurst but still on the expensive and luxe side of things. Sadly, (although I haven't been to Bandon recently so I can't comment on pace) most top notch American "Open for all to play" facilities have pace-of-play problems - Bethpage the least expensive and probably the worst pace wise. :-\
Using the WDW model of all sorts of accommodations for various income levels and reasonably affordable theme park prices, one might hope that as the Bandon resort grows that something along those lines just might happen.
Again
The one bad thing about American golf as compared to the rest of the world is that the overwhelming majority of golfers will never even see nevertheless play the greatest architecture of this country. We all know that in Scotland for example, there are a mere handful of course that take special connections to see and play. One other thing is that most of the UK courses play along at a nice pace compared to the Pinehursts and Pebble/Spyglass/spanish Bay courses.
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Pete Dye
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"......I plan on being on sabbatical in Nepal anyway, searching for that damn peacock that confronted me at dawn while camped in the shadow of Ama Dablam....some 20 years and 16,000' of elv ago.....ignoring certain clues is like ignoring Mother Nature.....heyya whoyoho heyya whoyoho heyya whoyoho etc... "
Oh Boy!
Before, launching into such a far flung and elaborate search perhaps you should do a tad of research into the general life expectancy of a peacock. What if it is no longer than a common house cat? ;)
If, on the same hand, you decide to search for this particular peacock and come up empty, I promise to take you to a convenient gin mill, and throw down my credit card, and after a while I'm fairly certain we can come to a reasonable conclusion of why that peacock confronted you at dawn while you were camped in the shadow of Ama Dablam some 20 years and an elev of 16,000' ago.
It's obviously way too premature for me to hazard a guess but just for the helluva it I'd say the reason that peacock confronted you at dawn at 16,000' in Nepal is because you had inadvertently camped on his barca-lounger at that very time he was fixin' to watch the Nepalese relay team run in the Summer Olympics ON NBC!!!----providing for the time delay, of course.
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Bill, nicely said.
Having been one who has not been to Bandon (cancelled attending the gathering after the 9/11 episode) I don't have a sense of what more land is there designated for the next course.
But, along the lines Bill states, I would hope that the next course is conceived with a minimally constructed, naturally presented model, by an archie that is not oriented to build in alot of extras, thus holding the costs down and pass it along to the customer.
But in the end, the game is 'whatever prices and fees the market will bare'. As long as folks will travel far and pay high, why in the world would a developer seeking to expand a golf complex go on an altruistic binge?
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I'm the guy who started that "Affordable Bandon" thread awhile back.
In Stephen Goodwin's book "Dream Golf", it states that Mike Keiser's costs "quintupled" over what he was forecasting. And, his initial budget projection was set at 12,466 rounds at $35 per round. This was based on the management firm of KSM assuming that a modestly successful golf course in a place with a season of seven or eight months might play 25,000 rounds, and since Bandon Dunes would be a start-up in a remote location, fighting the perception of lousy weather, the KSM analysts sliced that number in half.
Once the "buzz" started about the new course, they decided to set the green fee at $100.00 for the first season, the fee for out-of-state golfers. There was a lower fee for Oregonians, which varied according to the day of the week and the month of the year, but was usually less than half of what the out-of-staters paid.
To further quote Goodwin, he says that when Mike said he wanted a public course, he had always meant a course that the members of the public could at least think about playing.
Well, enough about that.
My vote for archie? I'm going to say Rod Whitman. Hey, I'm a Canuck. ;D
Why Whitman? Well, Keiser has been interested in a site in Alberta, Canada, which he has visited most recently with Bill Coore and Whitman [apparently Coore and Whitman have devised a routing plan already]. Keiser has already used the services of Coore&Crenshaw, and my gut instinct tells me that in talking with Bill Coore, perhaps Rod Whitman's name has been mentioned as "the next guy" a time or two. ;)
JJ
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Hi Rich,
I must be ignorant but what does CCFAD mean???
Jon,
I asked the same question many moons ago; CCFAD = Country Club For A Day
TK
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Rich,
As was stated, costs escalated dramatically.
I would also imagine, that with four (4) courses the present facilities will be inadequate and that capital expenditures would have to be made to expand the facilities to accomodate a greater number of golfers.
I'd recommend reading the book, it's rather insightful.
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Wild guess: Graham Marsh.
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My guesses:
Course #4 Kyle Phillips Pacific Trails
Course #5 Doak Sheep Ranch
Course #6 DeVries Real Estate Project in Bandon
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Does anyone think he'll select Kidd, Doak or C&C ?
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Pat- Not for the fourth course but Keiser has been on record saying Tom and Co. will be doing the course that Sheep Ranch currently sits on.
And, no I don't think he will use Kidd ever again.
I think he will work with Coore and Crenshaw again at other sites.
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Has Bandon become the Keiser cash cow?
It sure isn't the same sort of place as when it first opened.
Bob
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"Pat- Not for the fourth course but Keiser has been on record saying Tom and Co. will be doing the course that Sheep Ranch currently sits on."
i do not pretend to be an expert on bandon dunes or the future plans of mike keiser – but i have not heard that tom doak would be doing a course at the sheep ranch. where was this published or where did you hear it? what are the plans?
i was at bandon dunes this past march and was fortunate to play the sheep ranch one unforgettable day. i am really curious about its future, especially if tom doak is involved.
thanks in advance.
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Rich,
As was stated, costs escalated dramatically.
I would also imagine, that with four (4) courses the present facilities will be inadequate and that capital expenditures would have to be made to expand the facilities to accomodate a greater number of golfers.
I'd recommend reading the book, it's rather insightful.
Pat
Costs always escalate. The book does sound interesting based on the interview with the author, but that interview also confirms the view that Keiser always thought of Badon as an ROI driven business rather than some sort of eleemosynary mission. This is contradictory to what we were led to believe in the early Noughties, but we all have rose-coloured glasses when the possibility of traditional and affordable golf is seemingly proferred to us.... :'(
Bob is right. It's a cash cow. Great for golf, to be sure, but a business, nonetheless, first and foremost. IMHO, of course.
PS--what's the problem Keiser has with Kidd? The quality of his course was central to the early success of Bandon. Are they having a hissy fit?
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I don't think he has a problem with him per se. I think he has just become a bit difficult to deal with and seems to clash with most people he comes in contact with. That being said I think Keiser would prefer to work with the Hanses and DeVries as they would be fresh to the sight.
As for a cash cow. The numbers thrown around before are $5 million profit from merchandise. I believe if you add up the room and the greens fees and average out the meals you are looking at about $25 million in revenues before costs. Don't think Mike is taking the cash out this place. Every employee out there is getting contributions to their retirement fund that was coming out of Mike's pocket long before this place was paying for itself.
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Thanks, Steve fo rthe insights.
As to finances, we are all speculating, but all things being equal I'd be very happy with those numbers, which imply a steady state cash flow of much more than $5 million/year. If that ain't a cow, I'm a gerbil!
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How different are the plots of land the other courses will be built on to those already there?
If they are similar, would it be wise to use the same architect (s)?
Apparently, there is going to be a second course at my club, on land similar to but different from the Doak design already there.
I don't mind the idea of playing another Doak/Clayton course on different land; it will surely be different enough but similar.
If the terrain is the same, why wouldn't you go with someone new?
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My guesses:
Course #4 Kyle Phillips Pacific Trails
Course #5 Doak Sheep Ranch
Course #6 DeVries Real Estate Project in Bandon
Steve,
You've piqued my interest. I thought that "Pacific Trails" would be north of Pacific Dunes and would run into Sheep Ranch--I wasn't aware there is land for two courses in that area. I've been to Bandon several times but haven't played Sheep Ranch yet (to be remedied in about two weeks) so I'm not that familiar with the property. Where would Pacific Trails be in relation to Pacific Dunes and Sheep Ranch?
Also, please tell us more about the "Real Estate Project" in Bandon. What is it and why DeVries?