Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: david h. carroll on May 24, 2006, 10:54:07 AM
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The Burning Tree thread got me thinking that Arthur Hills has somehow managed to restore/renovate/re-route/re-do/redesign just about every course in the DC area. On one front I am extremely happy that he has not ventured just a few miles northward to my Baltimore home turf and on another front I wonder if his work could even be called an upgrade from all of the old Ault work on these places over the years.
And how did he get all this work?? Did one club job just open up the doors for all of the others? A classic case of keeping up with the Jones's for all the wrong reasons????
Off the top of my head, here's the list he's been involved with:
BUrning Tree
Manor
Congressional
Belle Haven
Bethesda
Chevy Chase
Army Navy
Woodmont
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David:
I think the answer for your immediate question is that Arthur Hills' son lives in Maryland and is out there looking for work for the firm. But, there is a strong tendency for architects to dominate renovation work in certain towns.
One reason it happens is because USGA Green Section regional representatives often recommend an architect to clubs where they make visits. Once they see a couple of projects which have turned out okay and the members of those clubs are happy with the architect's work, it's pretty easy for them to recommend the same architect to other clubs. [Some Green Section reps have eaten quite a few free lunches courtesy of various architects.]
Also, as Mike Young frequently notes, people in the Donald Ross Society and for that matter GCA.com are constantly sticking their noses in to recommend architects for consulting work, many of whom are no better or no worse than Mr. Hills.
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These are all questions that I would love to know the answer to. Bogey Hendren will be all over me for posting ;D, but I can't help it. I would imagine that it has something to do with his efforts at Oakland, Oakmont and Inverness. Can anyone help with the timeframe of these efforts and the ones in Washington? I will say it 1000 times, I don't see how he pulls it off, his own work has never been rated in the top 100 to my knowledge, with 200 chances, and he is continually allowed to work on great golf courses, it does not make sense. Could someone ballpark the fee for a restoration for someone of Hills' ilk, if there is anyone of that ilk?
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Ken Dye (based in TX) has developed quite a foothold in Westchester County. It would seem he is the preferred architect of choice in this area. Which is his best work? and was the the impetus behind all the other clubs choices?
Ardsley
Whipporwill
Willow Brook
Westchester
Blind Brook
Brae Burn
Bedford
Elmwood
Metropolis
Old Oaks
Sleepy Hollow
Round Hill
What are the architectural similarities that would lead these clubs to make the same choice?
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Ken Dye (based in TX) has developed quite a foothold in Westchester County. It would seem he is the preferred architect of choice in this area. Which is his best work? and was the the impetus behind all the other clubs choices?
Ardsley
Whipporwill
Willow Brook
Westchester
Blind Brook
Brae Burn
Bedford
Elmwood
Metropolis
Old Oaks
Sleepy Hollow
Round Hill
What are the architectural similarities that would lead these clubs to make the same choice?
Corey- I knew this post from you was coming. ;) You broke the cycle at SH.
Wykagyl has hired Coore and Crenshaw using James Duncan as the on site guy for their soon to begin restoration work. They are holding the Fenway work done by Gil as their "gold standard" for a successful outcome.
Maybe the Westchester cycle of Ken Dye leaving his fingerprints on classic courses is over.
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David, what has been the result of Hills' DC area work? How would you rate it? Also, is there a 'sameness' to the courses that wasn't there before? Maybe most importantly, are the members generally happy?
I drive past Chevy Chase all the time, but have never seen the course--the reviews I have heard have not been overly generous with the praise.
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Andy,
I think I was the one that turned you on to that muni near College Park(I can't even remember the name right now). With that being said, I caddied at Chevy for a couple of years during college and I love the course course and the club. I had not seen it pre-hills but the course that is there now is a fun course, with maybe the fastest greens you will ever putt on.
If you ever get the chance, don't pass up an oppurtunity to play Chevy.
Jason
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The similarity in Hills' work around DC has to a certain extent played to his advantage. Many of the greens committee members at Manor were impressed with what was being done at Belle Haven and many of the features there wound up (inappropriately, I thought) in his Manor design. The fact that he re-designed Chevy Chase and is linked to a popular area daily fee course gave him name recognition - a great advantage when a club thinks it needs to advertise itself and can't afford Nicklaus or Fazio.
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Add C.C. of Fairfax (VA) to the list of Hills renovation/remodel projects in the D.C. area. I don't think my old mates there have much good to say about what he did, or at least that it's better than what was there when they were about $2 million heavier in the pockets!
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Andy,
I think I was the one that turned you on to that muni near College Park(I can't even remember the name right now). With that being said, I caddied at Chevy for a couple of years during college and I love the course course and the club. I had not seen it pre-hills but the course that is there now is a fun course, with maybe the fastest greens you will ever putt on.
If you ever get the chance, don't pass up an oppurtunity to play Chevy.
Jason
Jason, yup, I do believe it was you that told me about Glenn Dale--and I am forever in your debt! You know my feelings about the place.
I am glad to hear nice things said about Chevy Chase. The placed looks fine driving by, but of course you can see next to nothing from Bradley or Wisconsin.
PS I don't actually pass up the oppotunity to play anywhere these days, as golf is such a rarity anymore. Falls Road is enough to get the blood pumping ;)
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Wondering if another simple aspect to this is the basic law of supply and demand.
Maybe a good number of the courses mentioned would love to have Tom Doak (as an example) do their work, but how many projects does he want to be involved with at any one time?
Even an organization as prolific as Nicklaus' can't do them all.
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I gotta think Hills is at least as prolific as anyone out there and if I recall correctly, most of these projects in the DC area were very high ticket....I seem to think that Bethesda paid over $2M just for sod when Hills re-did it back in the late 90's.
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Art Hills has a standard formula which he has used in the renovation work which he has done in the DC area. Pushed up greens with some contours but obvious pin placement locations and bunkers that are not strategically significant as they are basically flat and easy to recover from. Most country club memberships do not want much more than that and are happy with the result. I would love to see one of the courses use a more innovative architect to do their redesign but I haven't heard of anything. It is my understanding that Woodmont is considering a redo of the greens on the North Course but I suspect that Hills will be doing that.
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Oh my god, are my eyes really reading what Jerry had to say in his post????? The man has a standard formula. Is he trying to turn Washington golf into 180 of the same holes, probably, that would be just like his par 5's all the same. Someone stop this guy before ruins the whole golf town. Yes, we are from Belle Haven and we would like you to do exactly what you did at Burning Tree to our course, even though they were designed by different people. You can do that? Thanks Arthur, we will see you soon and we will have the Brink's truck here for your arrival. Michigan, Ohio and now Washington DC, be careful before you plan a golf trip to these states!!!
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Perhaps Art Hills is a very personable guy, is a good salesman and charges less than others. Perhaps that's part of his formula for getting these jobs. The members are probably happy with his work. I haven't heard anything to the contrary from Craig and Jerry who are tuned into the DC market.
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I have played the DC courses with members and they are quite happy with what they got - it is unfortunate that they could've gotten something so much better. It is a factor though to keep in mind that Hills came in with his ideas, a budget, and from what I understand, he did the job within the budget. On the other hand, as I understand it, Lakewood CC used Rees Jones for their renovations and they wound up spending millions over budget and the club's finances are now a mess, as they are carrying a huge debt and charging the members big assessments.
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Glenn, I played quite a few rounds at Belle Haven between 1986 and 1995, had a good client who was a member and we played home and home matches with me at CC of Fairfax. There were a lot of good golf holes at Belle Haven and a few relatively quirky ones (#9 really tough par 3 comes to mind).
What did Art Hills do? He probably couldn't do much about the drainage in some areas, or could he?
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Bill-- I heard from someone who played in the Belle 4-ball that the routing is the same. There are just a bunch more bunkers and the green complexes are more raised and varied.
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Bill,
I was just using Belle Haven as a reference in my joke about Hills. I know very little about it. I am just amazed that everytime I hear Hills' talked about it is always, 'Yeah, we were satisified or he didn't totally screw it up.' If I were part of making decisions at a club like those, I would demand a little more than coming in at budget, but that is just me.
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I never saw Chevy pre-Arthur Hills, but what's on the ground there right now is pretty good in my very humble opinion.
That's a tight space, and the members I've spoken to seem very enthusiastic about his work. One even opined on how Hills restored the Ross character? To be honest, I think many were just happy to get a par-70 course out of the redo – instead of a par-69.
The bunker work may not be to everyone’s taste, but personal preference is personal preference.
Does anyone know where Hills got his start in DC?
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If you had the chance to have someone that has built over 150 golf courses and has 2 of them ranked in the Golf Digest Top 100 public and 0 ranked in the top 100 in the country, wouldn't you jump at the chance to have him 'restore' your club? Hills is obviously a great architect, he has the built the 'Pebble Beach of the Midwest'- Bay Harbor ranked 35th and Longaberger-65. Bay Harbor looks like unbelievable property, so I guess that is why it is ranked higher, so I guess these courses are just about even in quality. Let me know when Pebble Beach is ranked 35th in anything!!
p.s.- I forgot to mention that one of the Bay Harbor holes was in the top 500 in the world. Anyone know how many Hills' originals have hosted a USGA Womens' Amateur or more important event? My guess is zero, but I would like to know. 2005 Public Links does not count as that wa part of Cincinnati's 100 year celebration and it was given to Shaker Run by default.
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Glenn, vis a vis Arthur Hills, you are in danger of becoming as biased about him as Tommy Naccarrato is about Tom Fazio! :o He must be doing something right, if bland, to have all those past customers for references. Only on this website do you find people as passionately opposed to mediocrity as we are! ::)
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Bill,
I would be happy to join such lofty company!! I would be shocked if Tommy could match my intense dislike though, Fazio has a few golf courses that I would love to go and play. Hills doesn't have one that I would walk across the street to play. Not to pick on you, everyone does it, but you can't even defend him without cracking on him. ;D I really am starting to wonder about this, it is one of the great mysteries of golf in my mind, right up there with the Calcutta at Deepdale and Palmer at 12 at Augusta. The work he has done, in no way, would lead someone to think that he is going to get hired to work on these masterpieces or close to masterpieces. As far as actually giving him the keys to build your course from the start, well that is just architectural suicide. Call up the Miamisburg, Ohio city manager and see if he would hire Hills' again.
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Glenn, I am not familiar enough with Hills' work to agree/disagree with you as to the competence, but I wonder what the criteria should be? Members of area courses here in DC have ample chances to see Hills' prior work, and they continue to hire him. I assume that means they like what they are seeing.
If members of Belle Haven, Chevy Chase etc are happy with the way their courses turned out, does that mean Hills did a good job? As well, JasonM liked the way Chevy Chase was done, while others here were disappointed by Manor CC.
I understand what you are saying, but I wonder what the measuring stick should be for a successful or failed job.
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Andy,
You bring up some good points. I am trying to figure out what it takes as well. I am not trying to demean anyone who does restoration work, but I would think that it is very difficult to do a great job or a horrible one. Is this the correct thinking? I don't think that it is too tough to go to Oakland Hills and change a few things around and still have a great golf course. I still am in need of some information about #5 at Inverness, I still don't know who hacked that up, but I suspect it was Hills. #6 too, I think. I am not saying that these clubs are making the wrong choice-wait yes I am, I am also just saying that I find it hard to believe that the members at a course like Burning Tree have really done their homework if they brought in Hills. Maybe they did there homework in the area, but like I said, how bad can you f--- up Congressional or Bethesda? I just can't imagine playing Pipestone or Legendary Run or Fox Run or Longaberger or any of that other crap and saying 'Here you go Hills, here you have carte blanche at our quality club' Another thing, it is not like Hills does a hell of a lot of private courses from the beginning, why let him work on a masterpiece, isn't that abnormal? I don't see the pro from Pipestone leaving for the Head position at Scioto, why Hills?
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Glenn,
Step away from the keyboard and put the whip in the closet. ;)
Maybe the man is just trying to earn a living - not be the next Mackenzie. Does not your criticism more appropriately lie with those who hire him?
A wise man once said you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need.
Let it go, brother.
;)
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Steve Shaffer nailed it:
" Perhaps Art Hills is a very personable guy, is a good salesman and charges less than others. Perhaps that's part of his formula for getting these jobs. The members are probably happy with his work. I haven't heard anything to the contrary from Craig and Jerry who are tuned into the DC market. "
Mr. Hills is a true gentleman and was a pleasure to work with at Chevy Chase Club. He was also very willing to listen to the committee and work within the requirements set for him.
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If your looking for an alternative in the D.C. area look up Joel Weiman. He's local and very good.
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Bogey,
Mick is a very wise man. I think my 'problem' lies with both parties. I have heard some horrible things about the Inverness restoration, but I don't know what to blame on Hills. I wish someone would help me with that. You will all be sorry if he ruins some classic that is close to you or your heart. It is all fun and games till Inverness and Oakland get hurt.
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Mr. Hills is a true gentleman and was a pleasure to work with at Chevy Chase Club. He was also very willing to listen to the committee and work within the requirements set for him.
Sean, if you don't mind my asking, what was your role, and what exactly was the membership looking for Hills to do?
I assume they had seen prior Hills work in the area, liked what they saw, and therefore hired him. Did they get what they were looking for?
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If you had the chance to have someone that has built over 150 golf courses and has 2 of them ranked in the Golf Digest Top 100 public and 0 ranked in the top 100 in the country, wouldn't you jump at the chance to have him 'restore' your club? Hills is obviously a great architect, he has the built the 'Pebble Beach of the Midwest'- Bay Harbor ranked 35th and Longaberger-65. Bay Harbor looks like unbelievable property, so I guess that is why it is ranked higher, so I guess these courses are just about even in quality. Let me know when Pebble Beach is ranked 35th in anything!!
Glenn,
While I have no opinion on Mr. Hills' restoration work, I do know that he has more than 2 courses in Golf Digest's Top 100 Public list, having played Red Hawk (#66) and Shepherd's Hollow (#43).
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I am also just saying that I find it hard to believe that the members at a course like Burning Tree have really done their homework if they brought in Hills.
Glenn, I wish I could answer that yeah or nay. I have to assume that a course like Burning Tree has a number of bright people, and that they would at the least take a look at a goodly portion of Hills work around here before making such a big leap.
And that means they must have liked what they saw if they made the decision to hire Hills.
There seem to be two different things at play:
1. What do the members want?
2. What makes the course a better (or worse) one?
And these two, at least according to many on gca, do not have the same answer. Interesting that Sean and Jason have both commented favorably about Chevy Chase.
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Chris,
Sorry about that, you are correct. I missed those two.
Andy,
Great point about the membership, I agree. You would think that in a well-heeled crowd like that, they would know who to hire. So that just makes me wonder even more. How many people on this site would hire Hills to do anything at their course? Why are well-heeled people in Washington coming up with a most likely different answer than the ones on this site. Now, don't everybody answer at once, remember Hills is a busy man and he has a lot of great sites to hack up.
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Glenn, just wondering what you consider to be the correlation between "well-heeled" and "bright?" ::)
It is always important, in my opinion anyway, to remember that 99.9% of golfers are not nutsy about golf architecture the way this crowd is.
Guys at country clubs tend to be sheep in some respects. They like green and they like well-watered. Don't you think they would want to hire the guy who did some renovation work at their buddies' courses? Once Hills did a couple in DC, don't you think the members of the other courses would say, hey, if it's good enough for (fill in the blank) and (fill in the blank), it will be good enough for us?
Literally not one in a hundred "regular" golfers (as opposed to GCA acolytes) cares about whether that redan is uphill or downhill, or what kind of grass this is, or much less what the maintenance meld is.
My guys at CC of Fairfax used to say our super had things backwards, because he had hard greens and soft fairways. They wanted hard fairways and soft greens. I wanted it all hard and fast but that would have driven them crazy!
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Thank you Bill, that was a good explanation of the inexplicable. ;D Can anyone supply us with the first dominoe in Washington then? I guess you are correct about most people, I must have been fortunate to run with the right crowd when I was younger.
I am sorry for all the negative posts about Hills, but I am just fascinated at how something like this happens. I just find it amazing that I can go to Longaberger and find nothing but a reasonable 17th hole and play his other courses and just absolutely HATE them. Noone else has ever had this kind of effect on my golf, just him. I hear all about Fazio haters and I liked Victoria and Belfair, I am somewhat easy to please, Hills is the only guy whose work I just think is mostly worthless. He does seem like a good guy though.
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I think Hills' first work in the DC area was at Bethesda CC in the early 90s. That and his renovation of Chevy Chase a few years later made him the go-to guy for work here, displacing long-time local favorites Ault & Clark.
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Thanks Craig, I figured you would know. ;)
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Andy,
I was lucky enough to work on the course at Chevy Chase for 17 years and was the Superintendent for ten of those. Craig Disher is correct that Mr. Hills was working at Bethesda C.C. when we first started talking with him. The work at Bethesda was getting favorable comment and it was easy to schedule a visit as he was in town often. Beyond that there was a few very interested CCC Members that did do some visits and talked with other clubs as references but there was no real search committee. Once we met Mr. Hills and heard what the fine people at BCC had to say I think we had our Architect.
There were a few large ticket issues that drove the development of the master plan at CCC. Most of these were developed prior to Mr. Hills being hired and he agreed to work towards these goals:
Create a par 70 course if possible. CCC was a par 69 prior.
The old tenth hole, a par three, needed a new location due to a proposed indoor tennis complex.
Create four or five sets of tees, lengthen back tees where possible.
Create the best possible practice facilites
Create a storage area for irrigation water. No lakes on property previous and 100% dependent on city water.
Keep the course looking like CCC and retain contours where possible.
Bunkers will have grass faces and flat bottoms
It boiled down that, when completed, the course should look it's age (73 at the time) but have modern construction and drainage. Once you push over the first domino a lot begins to happen and the look of the property did change in some areas. I think the look of the holes remained similar, although imporved, to what it had been. Mr. Hills seemed very willing to work with the members and had no interest in leaving any identifiable signature o the golf course.
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Sean, thanks for the reply. That must have been a very enjoyable experience (being the sup. at Ch Ch during the work, not making the reply ;)).
Interesting how Hills was chosen. I would have assumed it was a more involved process for a large private club, but you make it sound like that is not the case. Did you have any input?
Were you/the members satisfied with the end result? You certainly sound like the course was better for the work Hills did.
PS OT, but could you please tell me what the hole that runs along Bradley is like? :) I have driven past countless times, and all I can really tell is that it appears to be a slightly uphill par 4.
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Andy,
The hole that run's along bradley is a par 5th 8th hole. About 250-300 yards out there are a set of diagonal cross bunkers, from there the hole drops down and then back up for the last 100 yards, like most greens there, but this one especially, is sloped severely from back to front. its a very tough hole in my opinion and the only par 5 on the front side.
Jason
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;)
Yeah, like I said, all I can tell is it is a par 4! Couldn't even get that right.
Thanks!
(at least throw me a bone and tell me it is a shortish par 5 ::))
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off the top of my head i want to say its about 560, but its at least 4 years since i've played it :)
Jason
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Rats, foiled again!
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Sean,
Thanks for that response. I now have a better idea of how it happens and what takes place. I honestly thought that there would be more of a design element in the work that would be done in a restoration. Not much, but some more. If the membership gave him those directives and he was just fiddling with the contours, I think Hills was the right guy for the job and I am glad that it worked out for them.
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Start with the easy one first. Jason has given a nice description of the 8th hole. I think the card has it at just under 600 from the tips now. The distance did not change from the member tee. For me the coolest thing about #8 was that you could see 2/3 of the green from the tee. The longest hole on the course and you got a glimpse of the green just to the right of the cross bunkers at the top the hill. Mr. Hills made very few changes on this hole, not really needed. He slightly adjusted the tee shot bunkers by offsetting them. Before the were directly across from each other. On the second shot you aim over a certin part of the cross bunker mounding depending on your position in the fairway. Two well hit shots and you might have W - 8 remaining. The green is very severe and it may have served better if Mr. Hills was more willing to change green contours than he was. Above the hole is trouble.
I don't really think there is a formula for sellection of an Architect. I did not really have a say in the process at CCC. I was quite fine with that at the time. The process started slowly and through the efforts of a few interested members it gained momentum. There may have been talk of other Architects in the Men's grill but I did not hear of any. It just seemed to follow that Bethesda C.C. had great results with Mr. Hills and McDonald & Sons, so should we.
I believe the results where good. I'm sure there are plenty of opinions out there. After a year or so we realized that the flat sand bottom bunkers needed some subtle modifications. To often a ball would fall down a grass face and stop close to the edge of a bunker. We began to move the grass back slowly on some edges. I think Mr. Hill went along with this but it differed from his original vision. At one point before the project was done he told me that I should not use anything metal to edge the bunkers. He wanted a rough edge look. But bunkers are an ever changing part of the course anyway.
Being the Super my biggest fear was building greens that wouldn't work and would need to be rebuilt. I guess so far so good on that front. The #14 green was the first completed on 10/25/96 and I don't think there has been any reconstruction yet. I know the slope was softened on the 11th green but that was just a surface modification. The entire process was the best and worst experience of my life to date. I loved the daily challenge of the construction and my interest in Architecture was peaked. But it completely consumed my life and I never really recoverd from the effort the construction required. It was hard to focus on growing grass when the dust settled and I found myself in the middle of a divorce. But I felt I had to put that job before everything else during that time. Funny, a year or so before we broke ground my Green Chairman at the time showed me an article from one of the trade mags. It was about how most Superintendents change jobs within two years after a major project. I guess you can call me a statistic. I will always love that ground and will forever be thankfull to the people I worked for.
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off the top of my head i want to say its about 560, but its at least 4 years since i've played it :)
Jason
Andy Hughes,
Remind me to never ask you for yardage. ;)
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Andy Hughes,
Remind me to never ask you for yardage.
Thanks Mike, I really needed the Diet Coke sprayed on my monitor.
Anyway, what, you think there is an appreciable difference between 560 and 400 yards?? I think the real key is to never ask for yardage when I am in my car. On the course itself, I can invariably get within 150 yards for almost any hole :o ::) ;)
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Being the Super my biggest fear was building greens that wouldn't work and would need to be rebuilt. I guess so far so good on that front. The #14 green was the first completed on 10/25/96 and I don't think there has been any reconstruction yet. I know the slope was softened on the 11th green but that was just a surface modification. The entire process was the best and worst experience of my life to date. I loved the daily challenge of the construction and my interest in Architecture was peaked. But it completely consumed my life and I never really recoverd from the effort the construction required. It was hard to focus on growing grass when the dust settled and I found myself in the middle of a divorce. But I felt I had to put that job before everything else during that time. Funny, a year or so before we broke ground my Green Chairman at the time showed me an article from one of the trade mags. It was about how most Superintendents change jobs within two years after a major project. I guess you can call me a statistic. I will always love that ground and will forever be thankfull to the people I worked for.
Sean, thanks for the reply. I can barely imagine how all-consuming it must be for a super to work through a remodel. I still believe the ultimate measuring stick for a remodel is not what others believe, but rather if the members got what they wanted and if they are happy with the changes. It would be an odd result of the GCAers here applauded an architect's work, yet the members no longer liked their course.
Sean, how would you compare ChCh and Columbia? Is there much similarity, or just similar Connecticut Ave addresses? I found the ground at Columbia to be very good in places, interesting rolls and elevation changes that were well-used. As the courses are so close together, does ChCh have similar topography?
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Andy,
Columbia and Chevy are both very good but I think better golfers appreciate Columbia more. The ground at Columbia has more movement and some would say more interest. Columbia probably has more to offer for GCA discussions as well although I haven't seen Columbia since some work was done. Chevy is more gently rolling and more open feeling. I would consider Columbia the ideal golf club course and Chevy the ideal country club course. What a great day if you could walk and play them both. Play Columbia in the morning and have lunch. Have the afternoon round at Chevy and when done sit behind the 9th green and watch the sunset with a cocktail. That's a great day on Connecticut Ave.