Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: A_Clay_Man on May 01, 2006, 06:45:54 PM
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I tried to search for the other threads on this subject but alas, to no avail. So here goes...
One of my first authentic stories from the region involves the 17th at Sand Hills.
According to my source, this was the spot the "boys' would sit, have lunch, and contemplate thangs.
One day, Dan is sitting there having lunch and he turns to Dave and says "we aren't about this".
Now, I know what he meant as soon as I heard it. Do you?
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Adam,
If the tee hadn't been abandoned, and classified as a double diamond, I don't think anyone would have objected.
Having gone up top a few times, and having played it once, I think it was abandoned, not removed, because it was too hard of a hole from that location, for the GREAT majority of golfers who play the golf course.
The tee shot is so visually intimidating, and that's on a calm day. With a good wind up, irrespective of the direction, the hole takes on exponentially difficult qualities.
Playing from up there could only serve to slow down play and ruin rounds as the players neared the finish.
It might be a tee worth keeping for a few calm days, or a double diamond tee, but, I think they made the right choice in placing the tee at its current location.
But, the view is worth the climb, just take a club or two with you for the snakes.
P.S. I can't help thinking that my match with Ran would have
turned out differently had we played from there.
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One day, Dan is sitting there having lunch and he turns to Dave and says "we aren't about this".
Now, I know what he meant as soon as I heard it. Do you?
Having played my three rounds at Sand Hills from that tee, in stiff winds, and having totaled approximately 16 shots on No. 17, I'm pretty sure I know what he meant.
But I agree with Patrick (I think): I would NEVER have abandoned that tee. It was a horribly difficult hole from back there -- but what's wrong with that?
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Pat & Dan,
The playability of the teeing ground probably wasn't the issue for Mr. Proctor. (can we change his name to doctor?)
If we put ourselves in their shoes, at the time of construction, we can appreciate what visionaries this team and crew were and are.
Vistas, while often staunchly defended here, by many archies, had no place in the repetoire of the ground breaking crew. IMO, That's why the comment was made.
Afterall, Abandoning a back tee has likely rarely ever been done. Can anyone cite any examples?
Also, thinking about how changes happen, they just don't occur overnight. The groundwork has to be laid. Proctor's comments and sentiments about GCA, were the impetus for the abandoning, not the playability.
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It really wouldn't take much effort if the urge ever strikes the club to reinstate the tee as a double diamond.
Just sprinkle some seed and presto, it's done.
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Adam - interesting thought, but lots of great vistas remain... #2 green looking outward...rather nice vista off the back of that... #3 tee... #13 green...#16 tee... The list goes on and on.
I suppose they didn't want such an OBVIOUS vista-producing spot as the upper tee at 17? So maybe it's a case of not wanting to go overboard. But are you sure vistas "have no place in the repetoire?? If so, they failed pretty miserably in their efforts to eradicate them. ;)
TH
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One day, Dan is sitting there having lunch and he turns to Dave and says "we aren't about this".
Adam, that is a pretty skimpy quote and this almost sounds like a propetical story. Maybe it was so breezy that day, Dan's ham flew out of his sandwich... ::) ;) ;D
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And then there's the issue of a military entrenchment. Hardly strategic if there's an ability to attack from higher ground. Is there?
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I like that better than the anti-vista idea. Yep, nearly all other shots go from low ground to high ground -attacking the forts, as it were.
TH
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You've convinced me now, Adam.
I have NO idea what, if anything, he was thinking -- propetical (?) or otherwise!
Smileys all around, boys.
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I had a long discussion with Dan about finishes uphill or down. I like rising last holes. He favors downhill finishes very highly. So Sand Hills rise up to 18 is against his grain.
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Tom Huckaby,
I'm with you.
Just because a good or great hole has a fabulous vista, that's NO reason to abandon it.
One play of # 4 at Hidden Creek would seem to confirm that.
I don't buy Adam's premise.
And, if you look carefully at Sand Hills, almost every tee provides a terrrific vista.
In fact, with few exceptions, the golf course plays consistently from high tee to lower fairway.
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Patrick - I'm just glad you notice such things.
;)
TH
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I love Dan Proctor and the sentiment sounds honest.
But, honestly, to imply there is nothing about Sand Hills which qualifies as "eye candy" would be a bit misleading, too.
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Well, I just got the full skinny on the whole abandon tee deal/
Pat Mucci is seriously in error if he thinks the members had any say in the abandoning of that teeing ground.
As it turns out, when it came down to it, the decision was a C&C decision. It was determined that the angle was wrong for that hole, and Corey was told to abandon the tee either after the first or second season. He scalped the grass and placed it elsewhere.
Also, for clarification, there are very few raised teeing grounds at SH. Raised being much above the level of the fairway. Sure, you might think you are on a raised knob, but a large part of the genius of the design was to only allow the golfer a glimpse at a small section of fairway. Only to have the golfer realize how much room there actually was once they arrived to the LZ. On one hole the knob was raised six inches to allow for that view. I believe that was the second hole.
BTW, Nowhere in my post did I say there aren't great views off the teeing grounds @ SH. But, that's like saying there aren't great views from the Hancock building, idn't it?
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Adam:
Concur with how the tee boxes work at SH in general - yes, you do get very few large looks at the fairway. But that being said, you are raised enough vis a vis the surrounding landscape that I'd say Patrick is correct - almost every tee provides a terrific vista.
So methinks they accomplished all ends there... strategic and aesthetic.
That's why it's the best course on this planet.
;)
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In fact, with few exceptions, the golf course plays consistently from high tee to lower fairway.
This is not a fact. Period!
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Hmmmmm... it's gonna depend on how high is high.
I just went through it hole by hole and I have it at 9 yes, 9 no. So it does seem Patrick exaggerated a bit. But we still love him.
;D
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In fact, with few exceptions, the golf course plays consistently from high tee to lower fairway.
I don't think so, Pat. 2 to FW, 9, 10 left FW is high rt low, 12 slightly higher LZ, 13 skyline green, 15, 17 to G, 18 roughly even to LZ then up to G.
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Pat Mucci is seriously in error if he thinks the members had any say in the abandoning of that teeing ground.
Adam, Where did I EVER say that the MEMBERS had a say in that decision ?
Could you cite where I made that claim ?
You need to read and/or type more carefully[/color]
As it turns out, when it came down to it, the decision was a C&C decision. It was determined that the angle was wrong for that hole, and Corey was told to abandon the tee either after the first or second season. He scalped the grass and placed it elsewhere.
Also, for clarification, there are very few raised teeing grounds at SH. Raised being much above the level of the fairway.
Baloney.
# 1, # 4, # 5, # 10, # 11, # 12, # 14, # 15, # 16 and # 18 all play to fairways lower than the tees.
That's ten out of fourteen.
Your memory is failing.[/color]
Sure, you might think you are on a raised knob, but a large part of the genius of the design was to only allow the golfer a glimpse at a small section of fairway. Only to have the golfer realize how much room there actually was once they arrived to the LZ. On one hole the knob was raised six inches to allow for that view. I believe that was the second hole.
You need to get back to Sand Hills as your recollection is flawed.[/color]
BTW, Nowhere in my post did I say there aren't great views off the teeing grounds @ SH. But, that's like saying there aren't great views from the Hancock building, idn't it?
No, it's not.
Your entire premise was based on the view from # 17.
Don't try to change it at this late date.[/color]
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In fact, with few exceptions, the golf course plays consistently from high tee to lower fairway.
This is not a fact. Period!
It sure is, ten out of 14 fairways are below the tee on the par 4's and par 5's.
On the par 3's 3 and 6 are downhill.
# 13 is uphill and # 17 is about even if you play the lower tee.
If you played the original tee it too was downhill.
Your memory is flawed[/color]
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This illustrates part of the genius in the design. The ability to make you think you were hitting downhill all day, when in reality, it is only high tee to low fw, on a few holes. I'll admit that if I had to recall from memory, the way Pat has, I would've remembered it the same way he does. But now I have the answer man, less than two miles away and I read that last quote directly to him and he was emphatic about it's inaccuracy.
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you may want to change that last post Pat.
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In fact, with few exceptions, the golf course plays consistently from high tee to lower fairway.
I don't think so, Pat.
2 to FW, 9,
10 left FW is high rt low,
12 slightly higher LZ,
13 skyline green,
15,
17 to G,
18 roughly even to LZ then up to G.
RJ,
I originally excluded the par 3's.
If you include them, including the original tee on # 17, three out of four of them play downhill.
On the par 4's and 5's 10 out of 14 play to fairways below the tee level.
# 10 fairway is WELL below the tee.
# 12 fairway is below the tee
# 15 fairway is below the tee
# 18 fairway is WELL below the tee.
I could probably throw in # 8 and make it 11 out of 14.
How long has it been since you've been there ? ;D[/color]
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Adam,
There's nothing about my post that I want to change, and an anonymous source won't alter my perceptions.
I might not have the best vision, but, I know when I'm hitting uphill or downhill.
Why don't you point out exactly where the fairways that I mentioned are above the tee.
I've conceded # 2 and # 9 which were amongst the exceptions mentioned in my original comments.
Please keep the discussion in the context of the Double Diamond and Diamond tees, not the forward tees.
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Pat, The source was named. He was the superintendant there for years, and is now a course owner. Are you actually saying his memory is flawed? I suppose It's possible his memory is flawed, since it's been over ten years since the course opened. Corey was there during construction. But I'm sure you know when you are hitting up or downhill, especially after your ten rounds there.
Just for grins, I'll start with Number 5. You think it's downhill?but is it?.
15 is not downhill either.
10?
It is much easier to count the dowhill holes, don't you think?
These examples were the first one's out of Corey's mouth.
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Pat, The source was named. He was the superintendant there for years, and is now a course owner. Are you actually saying his memory is flawed?
Yes.[/color]
I suppose It's possible his memory is flawed, since it's been over ten years since the course opened.
Ten years is a long time.[/color]
Corey was there during construction.
Again, that's a long time ago.[/color]
But I'm sure you know when you are hitting up or downhill, especially after your ten rounds there.
It doesn't take me that long to figure out.
I ask you again.
Be specific, what fairway sits above the tee ?
We know about # 2 and # 9.
What other fairways sit above the tee ?[/color]
Just for grins, I'll start with Number 5. You think it's downhill?but is it?.
Yes, just take a look at the pictures taken from the fairway back up to the tee behind the 4th green.[/color]
15 is not downhill either.
It sure is[/color]
10?
You must be kidding[/color]
It is much easier to count the dowhill holes, don't you think?
I cited the holes where the fairway lies below the level of the tee, how much clearer can I be ?[/color]
These examples were the first one's out of Corey's mouth.
Then perhaps he should have given it some thought before he answered. ;D[/color]
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Pat, you are a tough nut to crack. It has been too long since I played there! ;) ;D I'll give you this, 10's right side FW is significantly lower than the tee. But, the left side is about even to slightly higher. 10 LZ is so wide that it must have a 20ft diff in ele from high left to down rt. And, there are others like that with high and low sides of FWs.
One interesting architectural feature is that the native grass and ground between Tee and FW are almost all down into a gully or depression before rising into the first LZs in FWs. That gives one the idea that they are constantly hiking off tees uphill into FWs. I believe 12 LZ is slightly higher. I'd throw 8 tee up the left side is also slightly higher than the tee. But, 15 seems beyond debate that it is higher.
Pat, do you get fooled often by putts breaking up hill? ;D
Corey only took care of the course for some 8+ years. Maybe all that loneliness and isolation skewered his perceptions of reality... but I kind of doubt it. ::) ;D
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It's been six years and I have never seen Pat admit he is wrong.
Thanx anyway Dick.
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RJ,
When the second shot to # 10 is blind, from down past the right side fairway bunker, and you have to up, hit over the ridge, that DZ is WELL below the 10th tee.
Perhaps you were overserved at Ben's porch after the first nine.
Likewise # 8, # 12 and # 15 are all downhill, with # 8 being close to level
If you were hitting uphill from the tee, wouldn't the green be blind if the approach was downhill ?
With respect to being fooled by putts,..... grain, grain alcohol and TEPaul have a lot to do with that.
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Pat, just curious... When you are going out for a big evening there in the big apple, and you are headed into Manhattan, do you say I'm going downtown or uptown? ::) ;D 8)
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RJ,
Shame on you.
Have you never heard of Washington Heights ?
Named after Fort Washington, the HIGHEST POINT IN MANHATTAN.
For you out of towners, look at where the George WASHINGTON Bridge connects NJ to NY, that's part of the Washington Heights section of Manhattan, in the northern part of Manhattan.
Washington Heigts is definitely ..... uptown.
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Pat & Dan,
The playability of the teeing ground probably wasn't the issue for Mr. Proctor. (can we change his name to doctor?)
If we put ourselves in their shoes, at the time of construction, we can appreciate what visionaries this team and crew were and are.
Vistas, while often staunchly defended here, by many archies, had no place in the repetoire of the ground breaking crew. IMO, That's why the comment was made.
This thread has left me scratching my head.
Hmmmmm.
Do you also think this is what also ran through the heads of the "ground-breaking " crew of Seth Raynor and CB MacDonald when they arrived at the proposed 17th tee of NGLA in 1909?
I can just hear it. "Geez, Charlie. This downhill vista is just TOO darn beautiful. We're not about this, are we?"
Or Marion Hollins exclaiming to MacKenzie at the proposed 17th tee at Cypress point, "Maybe we should route the hole away from the shoreline. Doctor, we musn't leave the impression we are all about fluff."
???
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Gene Greco,
I'm with you.
As I said, a good to great hole that also happens to have a marvelous vista is an asset, not a liability that needs to be removed from the golf course.
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I'm taking one more crack at this. Above somewhere it is reported that a decision was made sometime after opening to abandon the upper tee. That means it was originally there. It means that whatever Dan and Dave were "about", they built it on directions and according to the original plan. It would seem that DY and probably after some discussion with Ben and Bill decided to close it down, strip the sod and have Corey place it in some problem spot.
I'm pretty sure Dan has no reservations about incorporating a grand "vista" tee or greensite where ever he can place one that makes good golf sense. I have heard him speak with great anticipation at the prospect of doing a course on Paul H.'s land where there are high points that you can see for many miles into the sand hills. When we walked the land I was interested in, looking for routing ideas, he certainly didn't have any reservations about some of the key spots with amazing long views both east and west. I'm pretty sure Dan likes the long views with his golf as much as the next guy.
What Dan don't like is rooflines in the view! ;) ;D
Pat, if I ever get a chance to go with you to SHGC, I'm going to insist you let me go in the group ahead. I'm going to leave you my hand held eye piece level siting scope. I'm going to go out to a logical LZ and hold a bulls eye. You then can see what's up... so to speak. :P ::) ;D
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RJ,
I'll bring my transit, you bring the cash ;D
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I was sent an email this morning from someone else who was around during those early years and he relayed information that he says came staright from Bill Coore.
You are dead on with regard to that tee. It was initially put there because that's where the crew used to sit on that hill and have lunch. They thought the view was beautiful and put the tee there.
_____________we played the tee added so much enjoyment to the round. It was a bitch of a hole from that tee because you always had some kind of wind to deal with. Actually hit driver on the hole one time since the wind was blowing so hard back into your face.
The tee was abandoned due to difficulties in maintaining it and C&C never intended that to be the permanent tee. Bill Coore said that the lower tee affords a player to still get the ball on the green without having to fly that front bunker. There is section to the right of that bunker where a player can fly the ball to or run it up. As you will notice, there aren't any holes on the course where you have to fly a ball over a bunker to get on the green. The only one that is close is number eight and you can either go to the left or right of the bunker to get the ball on. Coore also felt that the lower tee on 17 avoided some of the wind issues since it was harder to play a shot from that upper tee.
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Maybe it wasn't about the view, but difficulty for difficulty's sake?
Hmmmmmm
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It was a bitch of a hole from that tee because you always had some kind of wind to deal with....
The tee was abandoned due to difficulties in maintaining it....
Coore also felt that the lower tee on 17 avoided some of the wind issues since it was harder to play a shot from that upper tee.
Indeed, these were the reasons I heard the tee was abandoned.
And I was there, too, at the time.
Lugging a mower to that tee must have been a nightmare for the member of the ground crew (probably the newest employee :)) chosen for the task. Equally as frustrating to this individual would have been, once reaching the tee and out of breath, the discovery that virtually no one was playing the hole from there as evidenced by the lack of divots.
And maybe, just maybe, the thought processes were: There already is one mighty, butt-kicking par 3 on the backside (#13). Why not throw in a touch of poetry to keep the ebb and flow of the course in perfect harmony?
Seems like the same reasons to me so why create all the drama?
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Gene,
I am glad someone has finally mentioned #13. For all its show and beauty (#17), I think as far as pure difficulty #13 has got it beat. It is, I think, just as intimidating from the tee.
I played six different rounds and always found #17 a very attractive hole, but always fared better in the end than I did on #13. #13 I found to be a much more difficult green to land. First you have the added distance. Then you have the false front dropping into a virtual abyss. Then you have the green sloping off to the back so that if you cannot hit both long AND high, your long shot will likely result in a chip or your short shot will dribble down into the valley.
I love #13 for its difficulty, I love #17 for its beauty. I never got to try the old tee location but would like to just to marry the two, difficulty and beauty.
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Indeed, Paul.
I always compare #13 at Sand Hills to another formidable par three which is equally heroic and penal - the legendary 5th at Pine Valley.
A little later on in the round at each course the golfer has his/her chance at redemption by playing holes with seemingly similar shot values - the 17th at SH and the 10th at PV.
Thus, balance is beautifully preserved at each course.
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Gene,
I had never actually thought of it in that way, a chance at redemption. That is poetry my man... shear poetry.
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Paul:
Sand Hills and Pine Valley are, to say the least, inspirational. ;)
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Paul Payne,
I loved # 13 from the first time I played it.
Another of many skyline greens at SH.
Gene Greco,
I believe there's a trail behind the upper 17th tee whereby maintainance equipment would access that tee.
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Gene, Do you know about the Faldo story?
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Adam, now you are just teasing us! :P ::) ;D
Come on, out with it! ;D
Also, I believe SH would be a lesser golf course with another longish (180+) par three, particularly into the wind as 17 aims. To have the quintessential balanced course, you need a shortish par 3. It actually serves just as important of a function of a balance to the rythm of the course when winds are calm and you can hit your 145-50 club as if the winds are strong and you need to hit subtantially more up hill and drawing. It is a great hole even from the forward 120ish tees where you have to take on the left front bunker. They shouldn'd all be long ball buster par 3s.
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I suppose it was a few years back, Nick had missed the cut at The International, so he came over to SH. First time out he shot a 66. Here's the kicker... he aces the 13th with the greens toughest pin position.
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Yes, Adam, I have.
And the "you're away" story.
Maybe you ought to see if "The Voice of the Sand Hills" needs a new editor. :)
They're located in Tryon, the little town halfway between North Platte and Mullen which you can't miss because there's a huge billboard of a smiling Jack Nicklaus with the blurb "THERE'S A BEAR LOOSE IN THE SAND HILLS."
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Regarding Faldo's ace. As many here know, Sand Hills has Polaroids of everyone who has made a hole-in-one at the course; the photos are on a bulletin board inside Ben's Porch.
Anyway, I was looking at the photos and thought I recognized Nick Faldo. I asked the woman who works at Ben's Porch about it, and she said that, indeed, it was him.
Then she said: "After his round, he came in here as excited as anyone I've ever seen."
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Gene,
No I never heard the "you're away story.
I did hear about C&C's first look at the property and what Bill said to Dick when they first met.
I suppose I wouldnt have to get all this shit wrong if others were more forthcoming. ;)
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Ahh, the well-traveled Sand Hills tales. If I had a dollar for every time I hear those stories brought up in a golf conversation I could retire-but I don't. All I have is an original authentic C&C Pvc flagstick and tattered red flag marking the Sand Hills eighteenth green. I can start the bidding at $5--Come on guys I need to add to my nest egg! ;)