Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: John Kavanaugh on April 11, 2006, 03:05:15 PM
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How common and what are some examples of projects where one architect routed a course and another built it. I already know about CPC..so don't bother..
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secession - i heard pete dye did the routing but ended up having disagreements with the owners over the 14th hole. bruce devlin came in and finished the job. i just don't know how much work pete had completed before devlin came in. i'm sure someone in this group knows the whole story. doak mentioned it in the confidential guide.
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Original Stonewall
Routing by Fazio
Construction by DOAK
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Talamore at Oak Terrace: Geoff Cornish routing, Bob Levy, Jr. design.
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Does PV count (partially)?
Others know better but Musgrove Mill was routed by Palmer/Seay and then designed by a local attorney and club founder.
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JakaB,
Your brother designed at least one course routed by a different architect. Can you name it (and the archie that routed it)?
Cheers,
Brad Swanson
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JakaB,
Your brother designed at least one course routed by a different architect. Can you name it (and the archie that routed it)?
Cheers,
Brad Swanson
I've really been kind of a jerk when it comes to following my brothers career...You'll have to help me out with this one. (I even just cheated and went to KenKavanaugh.com trying to get the answer.)
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East Hampton, C&C on a Fazio routing.
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John,
From what I've been told, Murphy Creek in Aurora, CO was routed by Art Schaupter/Keith Foster. I'm not sure if the orignal routing was altered in any way when your brother finished the job.
Cheers,
Brad
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John,
From what I've been told, Murphy Creek in Aurora, CO was routed by Art Schaupter/Keith Foster. I'm not sure if the orignal routing was altered in any way when your brother finished the job.
Cheers,
Brad
Thanks,
I needed a conversation breaker at Christmas...
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There should be plenty of Ross examples. I believe based on what older members told me, Ross routed Savannah Golf Club but it was built by Les Hall, who was the greenskeeper.
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John -
I suspect what he means is architects who designed a course on someone else's routing.
Otherwise, about 300 of Ross's courses would count.
Bob
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"East Hampton, C&C on a Fazio routing."
Mike:
Easthampton is not a Fazio routing--it was done by a couple of real layman, one of which I know, a long time ago. C&C probably would've changed it but obviously they didn't feel like starting all over from Square One out there in that beauracratic mess and waiting about two more decades. ;)
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Never happens these days, except:
Seven Canyons, routed by Ken Kavanaugh, designed by Tom Weiskopf
Legend Trail, routed by Forrest Richardson, designed by Rees Jones
The Preserve, routed by J. Mike Poellot, designed by Tom Fazio
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"East Hampton, C&C on a Fazio routing."
Mike:
Easthampton is not a Fazio routing--it was done by a couple of real layman, one of which I know, a long time ago.
That wouldn't be Barry Bistrian, would it?
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Does ANGC qualify??
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And to stretch it a bit further... would TOC qualify?
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Here's another from Colorado
The Ridge at Castle Pines North was routed by Nicklaus and designed by Weiskopf.
Cheers,
Brad Swanson
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Scott:
Yep, that's one of them. The other guy is Roy Parker, a man about the Hamptons for years. At least that's what Roy told me. When I responded; "Oh, bullshit, don't give me that crap.", he said no seriously just ask Bill Coore. And so I did.
Did you ever hear how Coore and Crenshaw came to do Easthampton G.C.? They had everyone assembled and ready to go at Friar's Head and BOOM, some other environmental Nazi popped up and shut that project down for at least a year.
Apparently the Bistrians heard about that and called up Ben and Bill and said; "We have this little piece of land in Easthampton and we initially wanted to build a little public course on it but we don't know how to do it---would you please, please, please help us?", and so Ben and Bill said; "Aaah, sure we will." and C&C and the Boys since they were out there ready to go anyway hightailed it down to Easthampton and built them a neat little course on an inherited routing by a couple of laymen and basically about half a pretty shitty property.
One time I said to Bill Coore; "I think Easthampton is a great little course", and Bill said; "No it isn't but we're very proud that we could do what we did there." ;)
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I believe that the routing at Four Streams was originally done by Jerry Pate (subject to the rules of the Peoples Republic of Montgomery County MD) and the design by Steve Smyers and Nick Price. I will check with my friend John Stock tomorrow to confirm.
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I believe one of the better courses in Myrtle Beach, Tidewater, was a Rees Jones routing but designed by Ken Tomlinson.
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Aldarra in Seattle preliminary routing by Palmer/Seay and finished by Fazio
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RMW - routed by Mackenzie, built by Russell/Morcom.
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We ought to divide these into cooperative or extended-time relationships vs. the hostile takeover variety. Man's it's a tough business, this golf course architecture.
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Oh heck, there's a billion of these, aren't there?
Seems to me a popular tactic for some lower budget courses is to engage an architect to help through the routing and possibly the environmental approval process and then drop him and build either internally or with lowest bidder contracting.
For instance, you might want to ask David Gordon if he was happy with the outcome of the first iteration of the Mountain Valley course near Kyle's hometown.
The problem is, once the course opens and its time to market, who is the architect of record? Well, in the example above you had a choice between David Gordon and Herman Yadacufski.
Case closed. ;D
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I've long been a fan of Yadacufski's alluvial par-5s. and always thought they had been inspired by the famous inverse Nader (i.e. reverse Redan) of Gordon Sr. & Jr.
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I've long been a fan of Yadacufski's alluvial par-5s. and always thought they had been inspired by the famous inverse Nader (i.e. reverse Redan) of Gordon Sr. & Jr.
Brad,
Yadacufski's creative contributions to the field of architecture and his vast influence on his contemporaries have been vastly underrated...neglected even.
It's a sin.
He's probably the Moe Norman of architecture, and if he had actually worked on more than one single course, there's no telling how the entire sport would have been elevated, not to mention how that would have taken golf course architecture in a much more compelling, obviously superior direction when we needed it most.
Or, to paraphrase Simon and Garfunkel, where have you gone Herman Yadacufski?
;)
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How about Bear Dance (Colorado) routed by some young punk named Phelps and finished and designed by committee of new owners.
Rick
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Never happens these days, except:
Seven Canyons, routed by Ken Kavanaugh, designed by Tom Weiskopf
Legend Trail, routed by Forrest Richardson, designed by Rees Jones
The Preserve, routed by J. Mike Poellot, designed by Tom Fazio
Brad,
I have seen a few where the real estate developer had a landplanner route the course and then hire the architect at a later date.
Bob Crosby,
I say 350 re Ross courses routed but built by another.
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According to the story I heard, Loomis Trail in Washington was originally routed by Bill Overdorf, then Jumbo Ozaki was brought in and the course was finished by Graham Cooke.
The Plataeu Golf and Country Club just a short drive from Sahalee was routed by a japanese company and then Perry Dye was brought in to make some minor changes for the finish.
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Tom P,
We both got our info on Mr. Bistrian from the same source! ;D
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John -
I suspect what he means is architects who designed a course on someone else's routing.
Otherwise, about 300 of Ross's courses would count.
Bob
Bob
Les Hall actually was a golf course architect when he wasn't doing grounds duty at Savannah Golf Club. He was also an early agronomist, developing his own strain of bermuda grass. Savannah Golf Club had grass greens in the mid twenties, which I understand was somewhat rare in the deep south.
Tom Paul would have been fascinated by Les Hall.
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John -
Forget TEP. Les Hall sounds fascinating. What more do you know?
Have you ever heard of Hugh Moore? Moore was the foreman during the construction of the old Retreat and Plantation Courses at Sea Island in the 1920's. He spent the next four decades as an itinerant designer re-doing or designing courses in GA, SC and NC.
Info on him is sparse. In the day he was well known in the SE and must have had a decent reputation. Reports say he drank a lot, smoked a lot, spoke rarely but was the Mozart of the D-6. My sense is that he had more energy than talent. He did some work at Athens CC in the early 60's. Not all of it was terrible.
While I'm at it, have you heard of Jimmie Dudley's work at Athens in conjunction with the UGA ag school developing bent hybrids for the SE in the 60's?
Bob
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Paul
You are correct. Jerry Pate routed Four Streams and Steve Smyers did the final design work.
Ault Clark & Assoc. did numerous original routings for DC area courses that were later designed by other architects. They did so many that they began having them copywritten in order to be compensated after owners took the design jobs elsewhere. I know Beacon Hill is one example. They sued and won after their routing was used in Johnny Miller's design.
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We have a routing done by AW Tillinghast for a second course that was never built. I hope that someone someday builds this course to replace what was built there. I wonder what Mr Doak would charge? How cool would that be to have the last course Tillie designed to be my home club?
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How cool would that be to have the last course Tillie designed to be my home club?
How cool would it be to have one of Tillie's best actually-built designs as your home club? Oh, wait, you already do. Not exactly feelin' sorry for ya.... ;D
Send Doak down my way, where top-flight designs in the immediate metro area are scarce.
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We have a routing done by AW Tillinghast for a second course that was never built. I hope that someone someday builds this course to replace what was built there. I wonder what Mr Doak would charge? How cool would that be to have the last course Tillie designed to be my home club?
Jim,
Anything you can share on why Tillie's plans were discarded for the present Cupp/Kite course?
In this neighborhood, I've always wondered the same thing about Philly Cricket Club, where the 36 hole Tilly plans exist, but Hurdzan & Fry built the Militia Hill course to their own specs.
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"In this neighborhood, I've always wondered the same thing about Philly Cricket Club, where the 36 hole Tilly plans exist, but Hurdzan & Fry built the Militia Hill course to their own specs."
MikeC:
Some think there was a second Tillinghast course design laying around all these years for Philly Cricket that they could've done when they decided to build Militia Hill.
That's not true. Originally Tillinghast submitted a plan to build 36 holes at Philly Cricket. The Wissachichon course was not one of the two. The club decided not to do the 36 hole plan so Tillinghast scraped everything and just built the Wissahichon course that, again, was not one of the two original 36 hole courses.
So Philly Cricket did not have the option of building Tillinghast's second course when they did Militia Hill all those years later.
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I've long been a fan of Yadacufski's alluvial par-5s. and always thought they had been inspired by the famous inverse Nader (i.e. reverse Redan) of Gordon Sr. & Jr.
Brad,
Yadacufski's creative contributions to the field of architecture and his vast influence on his contemporaries have been vastly underrated...neglected even.
It's a sin.
He's probably the Moe Norman of architecture, and if he had actually worked on more than one single course, there's no telling how the entire sport would have been elevated, not to mention how that would have taken golf course architecture in a much more compelling, obviously superior direction when we needed it most.
Or, to paraphrase Simon and Garfunkel, where have you gone Herman Yadacufski?
;)
Jeez - surprised to have only gotten to this now.
Mike, Gordon did the routing, right? You will agree it's a solid start for a golf course. Some of the slopes are severe, but the ACA/Schlegel/Ault Solo/Yaducufski/Gordon mix there today is solid and playable.
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"In this neighborhood, I've always wondered the same thing about Philly Cricket Club, where the 36 hole Tilly plans exist, but Hurdzan & Fry built the Militia Hill course to their own specs."
MikeC:
Some think there was a second Tillinghast course design laying around all these years for Philly Cricket that they could've done when they decided to build Militia Hill.
That's not true. Originally Tillinghast submitted a plan to build 36 holes at Philly Cricket. The Wissachichon course was not one of the two. The club decided not to do the 36 hole plan so Tillinghast scraped everything and just built the Wissahichon course that, again, was not one of the two original 36 hole courses.
So Philly Cricket did not have the option of building Tillinghast's second course when they did Militia Hill all those years later.
So scrap 'em all and rebuild the old 36 hole facility.
Who needs a "Classic American Dogleg Left" anyway?
*typed with necessary gesticulation*
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Crystal Downs: MacKenzie designed, Maxwell constructed! Great collaboration, though I think the former was on the bottle and designed only 17 holes.
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"Classic AMERICAN dogleg left"
Kyle:
That remark is just soooo Jim Finegan! And it's twice as good if you can actually watch him say it. ;)
When I introduced him to all our pros in the pro shop at GMGC as "The latter day Bernard Darwin", Jim's hands and arms and fingers shot out to their absolute fullest extension and he held that pose with a wide-eyed shocked look on his face for his normal 5-7 seconds (for affect) as the pros who'd never met him before looked on in amazement, and then he shrieked...
"BUT, ONLY IN PHILADELPHIA!!!!"
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Dunlop:
Perhaps Chris Clouser knows more (he just wrote the first book on Perry Maxwell) but it might be virtually impossible to ever know just what MacKenzie was responsible for at Crystal Downs and what Maxwell was responsible for, but something tells me the routing was MacKenzie. However, the actual "designing up" of that routing----that might be very hard to say.
MacKenzie and Maxwell partnered again at Melrose in Phladelpha but the word has always been that MacKenzie probably wasn't around much. Interestingly, a plan for the Melrose course has hung for years in a very inauspicious place in the corner of a grillroom (or whatever) and on the bottom of that plan it says; "MacKenzie and Maxwell, London, England" ;)
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After reading Craig Edgman comments on Loomis Trail and the Plateau in Washington, I wondered how many architects it takes to ruin a site?
They succeeded in doing so at both sites mentioned
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Tom P: Maxwell had already done a routing for Melrose and had started construction when Dr. MacKenzie came through town to see it and they formalized their "partnership". MacKenzie was using a London address [actually a golf magazine's address] as his office then, so that's why the plan says London. I believe the Doc made a couple of suggestions for Melrose on a day trip but that's all; I do have a copy of the letter he sent to Maxwell profusely complimenting his work there.
I've always felt like the front nine (actually front seven) holes at Crystal Downs look more like MacKenzie's influence and everything after was Maxwell's ... and that is the order in which the course was built, so it's possible MacKenzie's site visit during construction was made during the first few holes. But I don't have a precise date for that visit.
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How about Arcadia Bluffs? Built by Warren Henderson, re-routed by Rick Smith?
Does anyone have further details about how and why that occured? Its a little strange that it returns to the clubhouse at 7 and 15, but not 9...