Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Mike_Young on March 24, 2006, 10:30:28 PM
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AJGA Mission Statement
"The American Junior Golf Association is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization dedicated to the overall growth and development of young men and women who aspire to earn college golf scholarships through competitive junior golf"
And now the USGA is supporting this group....and so many kids and PARENTS enter this with rose colored glasses.....why do we do this to kids....dont know if its good for golf.
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"competitive" means some win, some lose. Darwinism isn't always about the golf courses of the British Isles!
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Bill,
what I am trying to say is how many parents spend a lot of money taking these kids from tournament to tournament with the intent of golf scholarships only to find out that there just isn't that much. I don't think most D1 schools even have 4 full rides to give. I have no problem with competition just don't promote the organization to the unknowing as though many will receive scholarships. the AJGA ad says 3500 are on a scholarship presently ....I wish that was expalined a little more thoroughly.....like how much were these schollies dollar amounts....not enough to warrant the expenditure these parents have spent over the last few years....
And then you talk about a group slowing down a round of golf.....the juniors at our club that play AJGA events are much slower than b4.
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Mike I can't argue with any of that. Parents are just as big a problem in tennis, baseball or even T-ball. You haven't lived until you've barely avoided a fist fight with an over agressive parent!
Actually, young women probably have a better chance if they have talent due to Title 9 requirements for colleges.
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Yep, I agree on the title 9...a young lady that shoots 85 can get a scholly.
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And that's a good thing. Too bad neither of my girls was even the slightest bit interested in golf!
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As someone who has participated in AJGA events (a few qualifiers and one of their NIKE Series events), pace of play can be a problem. HOWEVER, they have a pretty strict pace-of-play system. If you haven't already, give it a read on the website. It doesn't always prevent 5-hour rounds, but those are nearly inevitable in tournaments.
Is the AJGA good for the game? I'd say it is. Not all the kids are jerks, and not all their parents are overbearing and full of it. It provides opportunities to good golfers who would normally lack the funds to compete regularly. There is no downside to this.
It's funny; many tournaments are being held on longer courses, even in the junior ranks. Still, there are some on shorter courses, but these seem to be decreasing in number. Most courses are set up aroud 7000 yards, because the kids with $300 shafts in their $600 drivers are hitting the ball tour-distances. But, who's to stop it (I know I know, it's the age-old question)?
I'll continue to be a member of the AJGA, as it is the best-run set of tournaments, and provides the most exposure to college coaches. I'll admit, I'm looking to play college golf, and I'd love to get a scholarship. But I (luckily), unlike others, am a student before a golfer.
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Mike
I rarely...if ever post on this site but I can't resist on this topic. I think your attitude toward the AJGA is awful and very negative. Your comment about not knowing if the AJGA is good for golf is absurd. Anything to teach these kids the type of life lessons the game of golf can teach is good for kids and that is good for golf.
I was involved with the AJGA playing in many very competitive junior tourneys growing up and ultimately I did not get a golf scholarship...nor was that the "goal". For kids, it is about having fun and competing with your pals. If the child is not having fun playing the tourneys than parents should not even enter them. However, if you know anything about the AJGA tourneys, they are highly competitive outings that most parents would not even enter their child in without already understanding that their child could actually compete at a high level. These are not just local golf tourneys that are randomly entered by unsuspecting parents. Hopefully parents understand , that the AJGA type of environment is healthy for their kids to be around, learning great life skills that they can and will use later in life. I am sure that is why the USGA is supporting the program. Your comment about "why do we do this to kids....dont know if its good for golf." I would reverse the comments and say more kids should be involved in the game of golf because I KNOW that golf is good for kids.
Golf has been my life. It all started in childhood and the AJGA tourneys (along with many others). Those valuable life lessons I learned early on have led me to being a golf course architect and promoting the game of golf to other youth.
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The AJGA is not all sunshine and roses - it's political at times, it's competitive, and it takes money to participate. That said, overall, it's a pretty good organization, and I remember how much I liked the AJGA staff who actually ran the tournaments. It was always a really fun atmosphere at the events. This was 7-10 years ago, but I hope it still holds true!
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AJGA Mission Statement
"The American Junior Golf Association is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization dedicated to the overall growth and development of young men and women who aspire to earn college golf scholarships through competitive junior golf"
And now the USGA is supporting this group....and so many kids and PARENTS enter this with rose colored glasses.....why do we do this to kids....dont know if its good for golf.
There are actually lots and lots and lots of spots on college golf teams all over the country. Quite a few scholarships, too. And you don't need to be a +3 to get one either. A solid scratch junior can get a scholarship to any number of schools, and there are a LOT of scratch kids out there nowadays.
My son doesn't play AJGA events, but he plays lots of SCPGA Junior events and I know lots of kids that do play AJGA events. Overall, I'm impressed with the organization and what it teaches the kids.
Just thought I'd put in my 2 cents...
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Summer of 2005, Long Cove hosted the AJGA's Rolex Tournamenet of Champions. (An invitation only event that the kids say is equal to the US Junior Am because of the worldwide field.) Several kids showed up 3-4 days prior to their practice rounds to putt our greens, use our range and hopefully get invited to play by a member. Many kids had swing coaches and, boy, they had some great swings! I felt that the AJGA was extremly professional in their set up, the way the event ran and how well the kids acted. I will agree that they play VERY SLOW and they played in 3 somes with average rounds being over 5 hours. There were over 60 college coaches here, many from the top schools in America. I thought that they AJGA did a wonderful job and I hope that I have the chance to work with them in the future. Some kids go to camp for the summer, some golf all over America. All these kids can play great golf...spolied, maybe, talented, definatly! I believe that it is just guaranteeing them exposure.
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
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I wonder how long before there is an American Preschool Golf Association (APGA) which is a full-time travelling semi-pro competition circuit for 4-8 year olds to prepare them for AJGA competition when they get a little older.
It's never to early to start learning the intricacies of travel, hiring and firing your entourage, playing at the proper tournament pace (5-1/2 to 6 hours), and expecting the golf courses you play to be prepped to perfection before you blow into town.
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Look guys...I am not talking about how they run tournaments or how nice their staff is....I am talking about how it develops juniors. I think you will d efintely hear more rumblings in the near future.
I played junior golf but it was played for fun and yes it could have been better organized.
I don't know how many of you have ever seen these programs where parents sign up their kids for scholarshp services whether it be basketball, football or soccer. In short these services take a fee and supposedly seek scholarships for these kids. When in fact the good ones don't need it.
With AJGA ,some parents will spend over $50,000 during a junior career in order for their kid to be out there.
Yes, the AJGA concept seems good and parts of it may be but it is good for a very limited number.....And that is where people are having a problem.....Junior golf needs something that encompasses te entire game for juniors....I think the PGA and many state run organizations do this but I see no reason why politics should mingle the AJGA with the USGA. JMO
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Mike,
In my last comment, I stated "I believe that it is just guaranteeing them exposure." All in all, this is what the AJGA does. Coaches know that they can look at the best kids in the country all against eachother at one time. It's the same thing with AAU basketball. This kids travel all over the country in the summer to get exposed in a diciplined setting where coaches and scouts that can compare each kid to one another.
In your last post you wrote about kids getting scholorships, "When in fact the good ones don't need it." My dad thought that same thing in regards to my brother. My brother didn't play in tournaments in the summers and didn't travel throughout Michigan getting his name out there to hopefully gain a college scholorship. He was never offered one his senior year and he ended up being a 4 time All-State Golfer in Michigan. It's just a controlled way to gain expose, though, by the time some of the kids do get scholorships, their parents could have paid for several years of college!
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
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With AJGA ,some parents will spend over $50,000 during a junior career in order for their kid to be out there.
That's one year's tuition at a private college or university. If the exposure secures a scholarship, the $50,000 turns out to be a pretty good investment.
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The AJGA is by far the premier organization in the world of junior golf. I know Steve Hamblin, the executive director of the AJGA very well; he's a good man who has the best interests of his organization, kids, and the game of golf at heart, as he sees them. He works really hard, and has done amazing things with the AJGA.
That said, the AJGA is another example of how out-of-whack youth sports have gotten in this country. Speaking as a 31-year veteran of high school coaching, looking at what we've become in the arena of youth sports is just tremendously disturbing. In the case of golf, HS players routinely miss HS matches/tournaments (or even elect not to play on the HS team) to concentrate on their "tour" schedule, whether it is the AJGA, the IJGT,, or whatever. The concept of NOT playing on a HS team to focus on individual stuff CANNOT be good, and the same scenario plays out in other sports in other ways; AAU basketball, travel baseball, select soccer, ODP volleyball, and on and on.
The money is huge, the time commitment is huge, the pressure is huge, and the returns are very, very limited. All of this is sold on the basis of the Holy Grail of the college scholarship. Well, I'm here to tell you that the number of college scholarships is vastly more limited than most imagine, and the quality of athletes that get them is vastly higher than most understand. Additionally, in everything but Div. I football and basketball, the scholarships are split so many ways that they often constitute a tiny return on the investment in the various jr. sports programs. In short, it is often a scam (intentional or not) by the jr. sports programs. The concept of playing and competing being their own reward is a dying creature.
I fear and believe that money is at the heart of it all. Those of you who have kids that play baseball, soccer, tennis, golf, etc. at the higher levels know what I mean. Parents get stuck in a spending rut to try to help their kid keep up competitively; you can't unilaterally change the system, so you go along to get along.
In the long-run, I don't think that we will find that any of this turned out to be good for the kids or the game. The elite few from the AJGA who make it in college golf or professionally will be cited as justification, just as they are in other sports. The majority of players who fund the organizations and don't see much return for their investment will be little or no better off for the experience. In fact, my observation is that more and more players in all sports are becoming disillusioned and leaving the games; too much time, too much pressure, not enough fun. They reach a point where they realize they don't need it under those terms.
I know this sounds like a "good old days" rant. I just don't see any of this as a positive trend for golf, kids, or society.
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A.G.,
No doubt the spirit of your post is right.
I'm sure the AJGA has it's share of dedicated individuals who are trying to do the right thing.
I do agree with Mike Young that the mission statement of the AJGA should probably not include a goal of obtaining scholarships for players.
I used to teach a lot of kids who ,while decent jr. golfers,were always struggling (because of their ranking and ability) to get into Ajga events all over the country. Inevitably they would travel, at great expense, to the ones they got into , which often were across the country.
I used to plead with the ones of limited means(and /or limited talent) to spend the time instead practicing,taking lessons when appropriate,and competing at the LOCAL level.
It always amazed me that someone would fly to Texas, shoot 79,81,79 and finish 87th and felt that was valuable experience.
Gaining confidence through achievement at a local level is more practical, realistic, and cheaper.
I'm amazed at how many skip their local events out of lack of time ormotivation, yet would be hard pressedto win a local one day event.
No doubt traveling and unfamiliar circumstances are part of the training experience, but only for the highest level AFTER success has been achieved at a lower level.
I call it the travel soccer syndrome.
Nobody wants to play" in house" soccer anymore. My small town has 3-4 travelling teams who drive all over creation playing tournaments instead of just having a four team league right here and playing each other. The time spent driving could be spent practicing and/or enjoying something else.
Little League baseball is one of the few organizations that has managed to mainly dodge this bullet where play is at the local level until an all star team is selected and those kids play at season's end against nearby local towns progressively travelling farther as they advance in a the national tournament.
As opposed to soccer where everyone thinks they should be on a travel team so there are no local teams(except for little kids)
But Ag's right, it's all part of a bigger problem,
as exemplified by my 11:00 am Sunday morning emergency Little League board meeting to deal with the lawsuit being brought by the parents of three children who didn't qualify for the major leagues based on tryouts. God forbid they would play with other children their age and ability in the minor leagues.
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Jeff,
The best one I've heard recently is a park near me that has, for the first time this spring, split their SEVEN AND EIGHT YEAR OLDS into a major and minor league! The "major" league is viewed as a gateway to travel baseball, then HS and college, etc., while the minor league is billed as being "developmental". Wanna guess how the families and kids in the minor league view their assignment there? Wanna guess the % of the kids in the minor league who'll still be playing in a couple of years?
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Mike,
You asked "how it develops juniors". In terms of what? As tournament golfers, as well rounded young adults, as normal kids on summer vacation? Just a question, not an implication.
For the AJGA to encompass the entire junior game, and to really work with "the masses" of junior golfers, they'd have to do something completely different than running a series of national events. It seems like something only local organizations can really do effectively.
Since I played, the AJGA has doubled its number of weekly tournaments around the country - it used to be 2-4 per week, now it's 5-7 per week. They're trying to let as many kids play as possible. From a competitive standpoint though, they end up with really watered-down fields. You have a hundred kids every year who win AJGA events, and it doesn't mean as much as it did before. So that's the problem with creating more opportunities for kids to play. Should they have a "major league" and "minor league"?!
I totally agree with Tony's comment - "spoiled, maybe, talented, definitely!"
~Matt
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I don't see the problem you're describing with AJGA. If parents are ignorant enough to believe that all the kids who participate in AJGA events will get a full scholarship at a D-1 school, then it's their own fault. And if they don't know that full rides are very rare, they're also dreamers!
The AJGA is for kids who are the best in their age groups throughout the country, so it's not even open to most kids-tournament spots are limited.
Most competitive D-1 schools have 5 golf scholarships, I believe, and they divide them up amoung 10-15 players.
A full ride can best be obtained by getting to play at a smaller school which may not have quite the same Athletic Department budget that the big boys do. They generally have 5-7 guys on scholarship and aren't under pressure for the golf team to win the NCAA tournament. This may actually be a good route as these kids get to play tournaments without having to win a spot on their own playing squad every week. A lot of PGA Tour players come from small schools.
The opportunity to get an education while attempting to carry golf dreams to the professional level is what it's about. Just like in every college sport, only a very small percentage of college golfers become playing professionals. At least in golf, former college players can become club professionals and make a good living doing what they love. Not too many of us get that luxury.
I know about 30 young men and women who participated in AJGA events and got D-1 scholarships. They will never forget the experiences and the thrill of competition at this level.
As for the AJGA, my kids participated and were good enough to be invited to play all over the country. They gained a degree of maturity from the experiences that are priceless.
One of them got a golf scolarship in D-1 and is now a professional golfer.
Texsport
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AG,
You stated it well.
I know one tour player and one ex tour player who was a the USGA Jr Champion and they both refuse to let their kids compete in the AJGA events. As AG says...I am sure these are good hard working people that run the AJGA but IMHO and that of many others, it burns kids out early on golf.....as for scolarships..I think most D1s are 4.5 schollies...
John K,
I understand your side but just disagree with much of it...one problem I hae seen with many young people that are working in the different proshops etc trying to attain their Class A is ..they do not understand the dfference etween being a professional golfer and a golf professional...I am sure that kids gain much good from AJGA events but as Jeff says ..there is too much good stuff locally without traveling all over the place and spending that kind of money....
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The question is whether focusing attention and dollars on the top 2% of junior golfers is really good for golf in general. I am leaning toward Mike and A.G.'s side of the issue at the moment.
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AG,
You stated it well.
I know one tour player and one ex tour player who was a the USGA Jr Champion and they both refuse to let their kids compete in the AJGA events. As AG says...I am sure these are good hard working people that run the AJGA but IMHO and that of many others, it burns kids out early on golf.....as for scolarships..I think most D1s are 4.5 schollies...
John K,
I understand your side but just disagree with much of it...one problem I hae seen with many young people that are working in the different proshops etc trying to attain their Class A is ..they do not understand the dfference etween being a professional golfer and a golf professional...I am sure that kids gain much good from AJGA events but as Jeff says ..there is too much good stuff locally without traveling all over the place and spending that kind of money....
Well, of course there are a lot of good programs locally. In Houston we have a great HGA Juniors program and it lets every kid play who wants to. They have to know the rules and learn golf etiquette before being allowed into tournaments. These local programs are the nurseries for future golfers. My kids started there playing in 9 hole tournaments when they were 9. Before that there were club tournaments starting as soon as a kid could play 9 holes.
Now beyond that, if you want to play golf at a D-1 school, the system is--you play in AJGA or other national programs to get exposure.
Lets consider it from the coach's perspective. If he wants to recruit good players, he can't possibly go to 1,000 cities to see the players. It's just the system and you've got to realize it to realistically have a chance to play big time college golf.
It's just like baseball. When kids are under 12 they play in Little League, where every child plays in every game and bats in a continuous batting order. But when they get to high school, a coach decides who the best players are and those kids play.
The AJGA is an extension of high school athletics whereby the potential scholarship players identify themselves in competition. The AJGA is mostly for kids 16-18 years old, not beginning golfers.
There aren't any kids being forced to play by their parents,I'll guarantee, because they'd never develop sufficient skills to compete. The kids love it.
As far as spending money, kids trying to get baseball scolarships play select league baseball all year round. Kids trying to play college football attend summer camps and weight train year round. It's just what you have to do and I don't think this is much different than a kid that goes to graduate school hoping to be a company president. Few make it but a lot try. It's about encouraging the kids to reach for their dreams. If you don't strive for excellence, you sure won't reach it by accident.
I'm not sure what your complaint about young pros not knowing the difference in being professional golfers and golf professionals is. You'd have to clarify that before I could have an opinion. Are you saying that the youngsters shouldn't act like they can play golf well--because they must to get A classification, or, that they don't treat your club like a business job enough, or, that it's a tough road to get a class A and get a Head pro job?
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While there may only be a limited number of scholarships available each year at DI schools, that doesn't lessen the relative value of a successful AJGA season. There are plenty of exceptional DIII schools that take pride in fielding competitive teams. Look at Williams, Amherst, Middlebury, etc.—the schools that vie for the Sears Cup each year. A strong student who also has an impressive golf record has a leg up on other admissions candidates (read The Game of Life for a fascinating look at the number of spots that are set aside for athletes at DIII schools—created quite a stir among NESCAC schools when it came out several years ago).
Of course, DIII schools (and Ivies) can't offer a scholarship, but they circumvent that with generous financial aid packages. Easy to do when you are a school of 2,000 students and have an endowment of $1 billion. Golf and some other sports (in addition to the obvious football, soccer, baseball also includes womens hockey, crew, squash, etc.) can be a ticket to a world class education. Success at AJGA events is vital to showing those coaches a player has the talent to compete with the best.
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Success at AJGA events is vital to showing those coaches a player has the talent to compete with the best.
Shouldn't this be "Success at AJGA events or in top-level junior amateur and amateur competitions" or do you believe that success in non-AJGA amateur competition is devalued by college recruiters?
For instance, surely qualifying for the US Open, winning a couple matches in the match-play at the US Amateur or playing in the semis at the Junior Amateur would be more impressive than a win or two in AJGA events. Or least it should be, IMO.
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Success at AJGA events is vital to showing those coaches a player has the talent to compete with the best.
Shouldn't this be "Success at AJGA events or in top-level junior amateur and amateur competitions" or do you believe that success in non-AJGA amateur competition is devalued by college recruiters?
For instance, surely qualifying for the US Open, winning a couple matches in the match-play at the US Amateur or playing in the semis at the Junior Amateur would be more impressive than a win or two in AJGA events. Or least it should be, IMO.
The national level tournaments are the elite level, sort of like the majors on the tour, and really show who the PGA caliber players of the future are--not just D-1 scholarship players.
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Shouldn't this be "Success at AJGA events or in top-level junior amateur and amateur competitions"
Yes.
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I'm not sure what your complaint about young pros not knowing the difference in being professional golfers and golf professionals is. You'd have to clarify that before I could have an opinion. Are you saying that the youngsters shouldn't act like they can play golf well--because they must to get A classification, or, that they don't treat your club like a business job enough, or, that it's a tough road to get a class A and get a Head pro job?
I would not call it a complaint. I would say it is not thst hard to pass the PAT if they have een a legitimate professional golfer or 2 handicapper. I would say they jaded at what being a club professional entails. But many have no desire to be a club professional and because they have been hanging around playing mini-mini tours for 10 years sometimes they know nothing else to do and thus end up trying to get into the club professional business...and when they get there they think they are still supposed to play yet as many club professionals such as Jeff W will tell you...playing takes a back seat. I see so many that have no chance of succeeding as a professional golfer yet either because their parent can support it or they can find a sponsor they waste away at 5 or 10 years of so-called mini tour. And most seem to have a very weak practice ethic. I have come to the point where I am not impressed with the golf of any of these guys if they can't crack at least the Nationwide Tour. Right now anyone that wishes to play a professional tour can find one to play as long as he pays the entry fees.
Anyway, I think it is important for kids to realize when it is time to move on and enjoy golf on an amateur level without wasting 10 years of playing at playing professionally.
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Mike,
Reading you initial post I think your question was why the USGA has an agreement with the AJGA, but with no other junior "tours". No one has addressed that. I was concerned until I read the general agreement thru http://www.usga.org/aboutus/foundation/national_partnerships/national_partnerships.html I'm okay with it as long as it doesn't mean an exclusive.
AJGA does serve as a great help to college golf coaches in recruitment. The bottom line if you want a (1/2) scholarship is to do self-promotion. It's the same in golf as it is elsewhere.
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Peter,
I am with you on what you say. BUT they have to be very careful at this point.
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AJGA is not the only game in town for junior golfers, is it? Aren't there lots of other programs, tournaments, etc. for young golfers of all abilities?
If so, I don't see the problem with a program aimed at the elite players.
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One example of a competitor to the AJGA is Jim McLean's Future Collegiate World Tour, which conducts touraments nationwide. Does the USGA collaboration with AJGA give it an advantage in attracting juniors? Does the collaboration diminish the likelihood of a golfer choosing the FCWT? I don't know.
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Viewing this from afar, it seems that there are two issues being discussed.
Firstly, is the AJGA (or whatever other sorts of "hot housing" for aspiring professionals) good or bad for the kids involved. I would say good,even though it will cost parents mucho dinero y tiempo. It's their choice, and aspiring to excellence is a very important thing to instill in children, even if only 2% of the best 2% will ever make the big time.
The second (and most important, IMHO) issue is the one Tom Doak raised, i.e. how does the AJGA (or equivalent), contribute to building the game of golf in the future. I would say, not much. The game accommodates (and needs) players of all abilities, who adopt it as one of their games for life. To the degree that junior golf is focused only the potentially elite players, the future of the game suffers.
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Viewing this from afar, it seems that there are two issues being discussed.
Firstly, is the AJGA (or whatever other sorts of "hot housing" for aspiring professionals) good or bad for the kids involved. I would say good,even though it will cost parents mucho dinero y tiempo. It's their choice, and aspiring to excellence is a very important thing to instill in children, even if only 2% of the best 2% will ever make the big time.
The second (and most important, IMHO) issue is the one Tom Doak raised, i.e. how does the AJGA (or equivalent), contribute to building the game of golf in the future. I would say, not much. The game accommodates (and needs) players of all abilities, who adopt it as one of their games for life. To the degree that junior golf is focused only the potentially elite players, the future of the game suffers.
Rich,
Aspiring to excellence can be attained in many ways. But I am more concerned with the results from your second paragraph. I play at a club where the #1 collegiate team in the USA plays and most if not all of these guys came up thru AJGA. IMHO coming up as a junior working in the cartbarn, striping balls, cleaning clubs, walking, practicing and using whatever balls you find is a much better experience than a one dimensional, all time consuming, expensive tour where a kid can go thru 4 or 5 years of junior high and highschool w/o ever having time for a job. AND look how many guys end up on tour that were not great junior players because they were developing where as so many of these all consuming junior stars go into a college environment and for the first time see something other than golf (like girls) and their interest tends to drop. Many are burned out b4 they turn 20. And then they hit the real world w/o ever having had a job and it is tough on them. I know I have hired a couple in the past. JMO
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Viewing this from afar, it seems that there are two issues being discussed.
Firstly, is the AJGA (or whatever other sorts of "hot housing" for aspiring professionals) good or bad for the kids involved. I would say good,even though it will cost parents mucho dinero y tiempo. It's their choice, and aspiring to excellence is a very important thing to instill in children, even if only 2% of the best 2% will ever make the big time.
The second (and most important, IMHO) issue is the one Tom Doak raised, i.e. how does the AJGA (or equivalent), contribute to building the game of golf in the future. I would say, not much. The game accommodates (and needs) players of all abilities, who adopt it as one of their games for life. To the degree that junior golf is focused only the potentially elite players, the future of the game suffers.
Rich,
Aspiring to excellence can be attained in many ways. But I am more concerned with the results from your second paragraph. I play at a club where the #1 collegiate team in the USA plays and most if not all of these guys came up thru AJGA. IMHO coming up as a junior working in the cartbarn, striping balls, cleaning clubs, walking, practicing and using whatever balls you find is a much better experience than a one dimensional, all time consuming, expensive tour where a kid can go thru 4 or 5 years of junior high and highschool w/o ever having time for a job. AND look how many guys end up on tour that were not great junior players because they were developing where as so many of these all consuming junior stars go into a college environment and for the first time see something other than golf (like girls) and their interest tends to drop. Many are burned out b4 they turn 20. And then they hit the real world w/o ever having had a job and it is tough on them. I know I have hired a couple in the past. JMO
Amen. It's too late to put the genie back in the lamp, but amen.
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Again I have no doubt the AJGA is a great organization.
And it provides a venue for the elite to display their games.
But the elite are going to get scholarships anyway, they got scholarships long before a nationwide JR. tour existed.
The mediocre are out there chasing exposure, when where they really need to focus their energy is on practice habits and skill development.
The great thing about golf is you shoot a score -so if a kid shoots 71-68 to win his high school state championship and shoots 70 in the junior amateur qualifier, I probably don't need to see his scores at The Lubbock Wendy's AJGA Open.
I might take note of how he did when travelling, but would not hold his lack of travel against him.
If I were a coach, I would concentrate on the local events in a given region, particularly the southeast.
USC Aiken is a model of such recruiting or lack of. They consistently win events against ranked D-1 schools and dominate at the D-2,3level.
You would probably find more hard working gems from somewhat modest backgrounds who appreciated all they were given.
Kids who have travelled nationally without the resume in search of a scholarship may come from a background of entitlement whether imposed by wealthy parentage or undue/misplaced parental sacrifice. It is the player that needs to be making the sacrifice ,via time and work ethic, not the parents.
The other thing that i would fear multiple nationwide tours and events would do is dilute local events where participation might be down by players of all levels. I'm sure many touring AJGA juniors don't bother to play in many local events because of ego or scheduling issues.
This probably cuts down on buzz and participation in such events, limiting participation by players of all levels, leading to less growth in the game.
Bottom line, I'd love to see many more local junior events in a given area populated by players in the 0-10 handicap range as opposed to events limited to the elite few all over the place. This would hopefully keep junior golfers of limited ability competing longer, and somehow i think the elite would still get their scholarships- and perhaps, have a better idea of how to win as opposed to how to finish tied for 13th.
might just aid us in the ryder Cup ;D
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One example of a competitor to the AJGA is Jim McLean's Future Collegiate World Tour, which conducts touraments nationwide. Does the USGA collaboration with AJGA give it an advantage in attracting juniors? Does the collaboration diminish the likelihood of a golfer choosing the FCWT? I don't know.
Peter--
Just to clarify, The AJGA and FCWT are not to be considered together, as they are not concurrent. While the AJGA is run from early spring to early fall, the FCWT runs during the school year, from mid-fall to Memorial Day. There is only minimal to no overlap.
As a junior golfer, I split junior golf as a whole into four main parts.
1. National Summer Junior Golf (i.e. AJGA and major summer tournaments)
2. National School-Year Junior Golf (i.e. FCWT, IJGT, and PJGT[PJGT to a lesser extent; more informal and geared towards younger kids])
3. Local Summer Junior Golf (i.e. the CT Sierra Mist Tour, N(ew)E(ngland)JGA
4. Local School-Year Junior Golf (the only one I know is the US Challenge Cup, which actually holds tournaments from April to November)
As you would expect, 1 & 3 tend to be mutually exclusive. 2 & 4 to a lesser extent, but still. I can tell you that the better players in CT opt for #1, because the Sierra Mist CT tour comprises only single-day events, and in order to be ranked on the National Junior Golf Scoreboard, one must play in 36+ hole events. The NJGS is one of the primary resources for college coaches, so if you want to get recognized, you must play in some NJGS-ranked events. It's quite a trip to look at the statistics and rankings. It'll really tell you just how complex junior golf has become.
I love playing in tournaments, because I get to meet all kinds of people. In the Doral-Publix tournament, I played with kids from Denmark, Venezuela, Puerto Rico, Zimbabwe, and Martinique. It was a lot of fun. Super-competitive, but a lot of fun.
This ain't your Daddy's junior golf scene anymore. It isn't for everyone, but it can be both challenging, frustrating, and rewarding at the same time. Sound familiar? Perhaps a parallel to the game itself?
;D
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I'm not sure what your complaint about young pros not knowing the difference in being professional golfers and golf professionals is. You'd have to clarify that before I could have an opinion. Are you saying that the youngsters shouldn't act like they can play golf well--because they must to get A classification, or, that they don't treat your club like a business job enough, or, that it's a tough road to get a class A and get a Head pro job?
I would not call it a complaint. I would say it is not thst hard to pass the PAT if they have een a legitimate professional golfer or 2 handicapper. I would say they jaded at what being a club professional entails. But many have no desire to be a club professional and because they have been hanging around playing mini-mini tours for 10 years sometimes they know nothing else to do and thus end up trying to get into the club professional business...and when they get there they think they are still supposed to play yet as many club professionals such as Jeff W will tell you...playing takes a back seat. I see so many that have no chance of succeeding as a professional golfer yet either because their parent can support it or they can find a sponsor they waste away at 5 or 10 years of so-called mini tour. And most seem to have a very weak practice ethic. I have come to the point where I am not impressed with the golf of any of these guys if they can't crack at least the Nationwide Tour. Right now anyone that wishes to play a professional tour can find one to play as long as he pays the entry fees.
Anyway, I think it is important for kids to realize when it is time to move on and enjoy golf on an amateur level without wasting 10 years of playing at playing professionally.
I understand that you feel sorry for these kids, but how is it the AJGA's fault that kids haven't grown up or that the Head Pro interviewing them for an assistant's job can't figure out whether they're serious about being a golf professional or not?
If there's a shortage of candidates for Assistant's jobs, and that's why they're being hired, maybe there aren't that many kids that want to be golf professionals, and that would be a more serious problem than the one you've described.
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I'm not sure what your complaint about young pros not knowing the difference in being professional golfers and golf professionals is. You'd have to clarify that before I could have an opinion. Are you saying that the youngsters shouldn't act like they can play golf well--because they must to get A classification, or, that they don't treat your club like a business job enough, or, that it's a tough road to get a class A and get a Head pro job?
I would not call it a complaint. I would say it is not thst hard to pass the PAT if they have een a legitimate professional golfer or 2 handicapper. I would say they jaded at what being a club professional entails. But many have no desire to be a club professional and because they have been hanging around playing mini-mini tours for 10 years sometimes they know nothing else to do and thus end up trying to get into the club professional business...and when they get there they think they are still supposed to play yet as many club professionals such as Jeff W will tell you...playing takes a back seat. I see so many that have no chance of succeeding as a professional golfer yet either because their parent can support it or they can find a sponsor they waste away at 5 or 10 years of so-called mini tour. And most seem to have a very weak practice ethic. I have come to the point where I am not impressed with the golf of any of these guys if they can't crack at least the Nationwide Tour. Right now anyone that wishes to play a professional tour can find one to play as long as he pays the entry fees.
Anyway, I think it is important for kids to realize when it is time to move on and enjoy golf on an amateur level without wasting 10 years of playing at playing professionally.
I understand that you feel sorry for these kids, but how is it the AJGA's fault that kids haven't grown up or that the Head Pro interviewing them for an assistant's job can't figure out whether they're serious about being a golf professional or not?
If there's a shortage of candidates for Assistant's jobs, and that's why they're being hired, maybe there aren't that many kids that want to be golf professionals, and that would be a more serious problem than the one you've described.
John,
Let's just agree to disagree on this one.
MY
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Didn't want to start a new topic so dug this out.
sitting here suffering from the flu and watching the PGA Show(where I was scheduled to be) on the Golf Channel.
Watching the various suits discuss the "Business" of golf and all of their self serving ideas and new top heavy associations.
Not sure if the feeling in my stomach is a new flu symptom or from what I'm seeing on TV ::) ::)
It occurs to me there are not enough ways for a junior to participate or get involved with the game competively on an introductory basis. (although PGA junior league is a step in the right direction)
Over the last 20 years, Jr. Golf, the AJGA etc. has created an entire generation of incredible PGA Tour level, Web.com, elite amateur, and low handicap golfer.
The younger players are better than ever at all ages.
My question is:
How many avid golfers have been created?
What outlets are there for the 15-30 handicap junior player to be and stay involved much like your typical club golfer?
Are there junior handicap events?
Going out and playing stroke play in an event as a 20 handicap is painful enough for adults, what is it like for the developing junior to have to finish every hole to its bitter conclusion?
In soccer there is always room for a player who may not be the best athlete to feel part of an 11 man team-same in baseball, football-less so in basketball. In golf, it's tough to hide when counting every shot.
Not criticizing-just asking.
We have local inter club on the east end here(started by Maidstone's Eden Foster) which tends to be a bit more social as its only nine holes so the most competitive jrs tend to not be available or have bigger fish to fry.
The most popular events tend to be scrambles or best balls-but many are stroke play.It has become so popular we had to split into two divisions this year.
Seems to me we need more of this and less AJGA style events-which would seem to me to merely make College Golf Coaches lives easier rather than serving much positive purpose for most juniors and their families.
or at least simply more of the former...
Are we retaining many 15-25 handicap juniors? or does that subset come from people who take up the game later in life, or get back into it later in life.
It would seem there are potentially WAAAAAYYYY more of these that slip through the cracks and out of golf due in their teens to a feeling of having no chance to compete
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I grew up with the Toledo Junior District Golf Association. Can't beat the opportunity to play good public and private courses for $15 and get a hot dog and a pop. It's really people on the local scene that do all the heavy lifting and get no publicity. They don't seek it, they just give back to the game what it has given them.
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I grew up with the Toledo Junior District Golf Association. Can't beat the opportunity to play good public and private courses for $15 and get a hot dog and a pop. It's really people on the local scene that do all the heavy lifting and get no publicity. They don't seek it, they just give back to the game what it has given them.
another 20 hdcp retained... ;)
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Do you mean to suggest that encouraging parents to fork over $500 for a new driver is not growing the game??? ;)
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Not sure why I didn't respond back in 2006, when my son Andrew was actually active on the junior golf scene. To be clear, like Toledo, Dallas has several junior level circuits. Kids who want to sort of work their way up to the AJGA, but have a choice (or had at that time) to remain on a more local circuit.
Andrew sort of mixed it up. We did take him to AJGA tourneys in Alabama and Missouri, maybe a few more. Of course, he played in all the Texas ones, and I recall letting him go to Austin alone, using my hotel points to reduce the cost of travel. In the end, he was ranked 104 nationally, and made the top 100 tourney in NC, playing on a Paul Cowley/Davis Love course, when Fukijawa (?) dropped out because he qualified for the US Open. So overall, it was a success.
As to the investment portion, he turned down some partial scholarships for a full ride at a two year college in Texas (the now long gone girlfriend influence) and we used some of his college fund to get him a car instead. And he just missed being a JC All American, finishing in the top 25 (top 20 are AA) in both the national end of year tourneys.
Short version, it can be good and there aren't any dearth of other and lesser competitive opportunities for those so inclined. It was tough to get into the tourneys, with a rigid point system. I was lucky to get him some exemptions via my golf connections.
And, the worst part was the rules ignorance of players and parents. In his first trip to KC area, his opponent hit in water and his Dad declared it lateral, so "drop here." They ended up nearly tied, and it demonstrated how some of those rules violations could really cost a legit player in getting the points needed to get into the next tournament. It was a tough system, and there were no participation trophies.
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Jeff, the middle schools in my area all have golf teams. They play 9 hole matches at local "executive" courses (9 holes, usually par 32 or 33). Most schools only have 1-3 skilled players, but the kids get around fine because the highest allowable score on a hole is double bogey. There are some schools where all the kids can easily make nine doubles per match, and for them, a good day is a handful of bogeys or even a par or two. It would never work without a maximum score.
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Jeff, the middle schools in my area all have golf teams. They play 9 hole matches at local "executive" courses (9 holes, usually par 32 or 33). Most schools only have 1-3 skilled players, but the kids get around fine because the highest allowable score on a hole is double bogey. There are some schools where all the kids can easily make nine doubles per match, and for them, a good day is a handful of bogeys or even a par or two. It would never work without a maximum score.
+1
but again most of these are feeders to varsity and upper levels.
It would be great to have coed leagues with a social component, handicaps etc.
letting peole see golf can be fun as a hobby, exercise, heck maybe even a way to meet girls- etc.-not just as a way to mythical college scholarship (which are generally minimal or more about your income etc)
The upper end (.01% of player) is well served-as Jeff B. points out.
I just gotta win that lotto....
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Basically, our 36 hole club has junior clinics, a junior team, kids that play in all levels of the very good SoCal PGA junior tournaments, high school golf, and a few AJGA players.
Not sure the AJGA is doing anything but good (other than expensive) for the niche it provides.
High end, high cost, respected competitive golf for the best junior golfers.
If you desire to be a high level collegiate player, it is the best route to recruitment from the best college programs. In no way, the only route. Winning sectional and state high school events, local junior tournaments, or qualifying for some events will get attention as well.
The AJGA is basically triple A for college golf, and like triple A,some make it, some don't.
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Mike,
Good points.
Well said.
I agree