Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Jim_Coleman on February 28, 2006, 07:05:04 PM
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I've been lucky enough to have been playing Teeth of the Dog for the past two months, arguably the greatest course ever designed by one of the greatest architects in history - Pete Dye. You won't believe what they've done to his gem. They've moved and recontoured the 18th green entirely and added a huge cross bunker and mounds of rough accross the left two thirds of the 18th fairway; they've totally recontoured the 10th green and modestly changed a few others; they've removed a key cross bunker while adding new bunkers and, God forbid, trees, to the right side of the fairway on #3; they've added 100 yards and a huge new bunker to #4; they've totally redisigned the greenside bunkers on over half the holes, turning large, flattish flashes of sand into potlike pits; they've added INTERNAL TREES to the left of a fairway bunker on #12 to cut off that route. And, of course, they've added lots more length to several holes. The course has been totally mutilated!
If only Pete Dye could know what they've done to his gem, he'd roll over in his grave. What? Pete Dye's still alive? What? Pete Dye is the guy who instituted these major changes? You betcha! I may not like them all (I kinda like the old #10 green over the new one), but I'm sure it's an even better course now, and I'm REALLY sure that Mr. Dye thinks it's a better course.
My point - please don't assess changes made to a "classic course" by arguing that the changes are inconsitant with the original architect's intent. NOBODY know what Ross, or Flynn, or McKensie, or Tillie, or McDonald would do if they had the privilege of making changes to their courses today. Assess the changes on whether they're good, period! Don't tell me Flynn would have put a bunker there if he wanted one; don't tell me McKensie would have put trees and rough there if he wanted them; don't tell me Ross would have put a tree there if he wanted one. YOU DON'T KNOW, EVEN IF YOU THINK YOU DO!!
Believe me, I'm watching one of the few (only?) courses where the original architect had a chance to go back 30 years later to make changes to an already great course. Pete Dye has made substantial changes to his pride and joy. I have no doubt that EVERY great archtect would do the same to EVERY COURSE he built, if he were given the same opportunity.
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A lot of people think Pete Dye's work would be better if he didn't alter it.
Some have even said that's why The Golf Club is their favorite.
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The issue is the fact that once the original architect is dead, no one really knows what changes are "better" as far as the unfortunately demised architect is concerned. Therefore, in the case of many old golf courses whos architect has gone on to meet his Maker, no action often is the best action.
But not always.... :)
That's not being on the cemetarial fence, so to speak, is it?
Joe
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Jim Coleman,
I think there's a significant factor that you're overlooking, and that factor is the continuity that comes with the original designer versus the break in continuity that comes with an outsider.
Donald Ross tinkered with Pinehurst # 2 for about 26 years.
CBM did the same with NGLA and Pete Dye did the same with Crooked Stick.
It's one thing when the originator, the creator tinkers with a golf course, it's quite another when someone totally detached/removed from the originator/creator takes to altering the golf course.
Historically, most of the disfigurations of golf courses have occured due to the latter, not the former.
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Jim,
I think you are right in many cases. As a gca I can tell you I would substantially change many of my own courses if given a chance a decade later. Its because golf changes, experience shows that some ideas weren't all that great to begin with, and lastly, because I have learned more and moved on to different ideas.
Now, the problem with concept 3 above is that those ideas must be vetted against the test of time as well.
Pat,
RE: I think intent is secondary to the talent of the renovator. I would modify your quote to read:
"It's one thing when the originator, the creator tinkers with a golf course, it's quite another when someone somewhat less talented than the originator/creator takes to altering the golf course.
Historically, most of the disfigurations of golf courses have occured when clubs hire the closest, cheapest, or most agreeable gca, or worse yet, don't hire one at all, especially when there are some wild goals involved - like going after a major tournament or keeping up with the Jones rather than accepting the quality of the club as it exists........and as it has drawn your membership to date.
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Too bad they couldn't knock down the condos on 10.
The left side of that hole - green included - was excellent - the right - not so good.
I barely remember the 18th green.
I liked the cross bunker on 3.
If the new bunkers you speak of are the variety that he's designed lately - Wintonbury - TPC New Orleans - I wouldn't like them there.
I like the old course. :)
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Jeff & Jim,
If we wanted to get into sub-sets, we could add those alterations deemed to be predetermined by the membership, prior to the retention of an architect, or without consultation with the original architect.
I'm one of those who liked the mound in the middle of the 18th green at Pine Valley. Crump put it there.
While he may have referenced a spine like feature as an alternative, someone other then Crump removed the mound, and in my opinion,diminished the value of the hole.
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Jim: How about this: the original architect can do anything he wants to his own golf course, but once he's dead, no one else can change it on the basis that it's the right thing to do.
Oh, wait, that would put some modern architects on the bread line.
There has been a lot of favor for restoration here in the past couple of years, but if those clubs (and sometimes their consulting architects) had not changed the original design years ago, there would be no need for any restoration.
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I guess my point is, if you put a great old course in the hands of a great new architect, you'll get a better course. It may not be within the "original architect's intent," but it WILL be better.
Shivas, how do I know that EVERY architect would make changes 30 years later if he could? Let me change that to every SANE architect. Jeff Brauer's post to me is common sense. Who can't do a better job in ANY endeavor with 30 years of experience and new technology to work and deal with. Lawyers would write different briefs; doctors would perform different procedures; CEO's would make different decisions.
Unless your view is that a golf course is a piece of art, rather than a place to play golf, I say try to make every course better, regardless of the architect's original intent. EVERY architect would, if he could.
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Jim,
I understand your points...
How would a great architect make the 17th at TOC better?
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Jeff B.
I like Pat's words better.
Lets take the breather hole for example.
You designed the X hole at the Quarry to give the player a respit before the finale - you were creating a sense of rhythm.
If in 50 years someone finds hole X to be the weakest of the bunch - a better architect may try to improve the hole - thus destroying your rhythm.
Is the hole better - probably.
Is the course better - I wouldn't think so.
In the hands of an expert - intent is paramount.
Cheers
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Having seen a few less than desirable "renovations," I would be delighted if The Society of Golf Course Architects, if their is such an august body, adopt a sort of Hippocratic oath. Something like...."We shall do no harm."
Bob
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Jim Coleman said - "I guess my point is, if you put a great old course in the hands of a great new architect, you'll get a better course. It may not be within the "original architect's intent," but it WILL be better".
Jim,
I would suggest getting out and seeing a few more "great old courses" that have been in the hands of "great new architects" and then make that statement. Or maybe you should provide a list of who you consider "great new architects" and I hope you list enough to go around ;)
Yes some courses get better as they evolve, but unfortunately many do not. Personally, I would be very hard pressed to "restore" a golf hole to the original design if it would be worse restored than what is there now. The trick is determining what is better and what is worse. Unfortunately, the answer to that dilemma varies greatly depending on who you ask for the answer.
One more point to add - sometimes just getting a course back to something closer to the original design is a huge improvement over what has been done to it over the years. This again goes back to that tough question about what is better and what is worse. That question will always be there even 100 years from now.
Mark
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Pat:
I have just one simple question for you: what difference does it make?
In other words, why is it different if the perpetrator of the changes is the same guy or not? Isn't what's in the ground what's in the ground, regardless of who put it there?
Here's the difference.
There's usually only one creator, with a distinct vision of the golf course.
Now add dozens of architects, in sequential order to the process and what happens. A quiltwork ? A total destruction of the style, character and playing qualities of the golf course.
Equally as important, over time the golf course loses its distinctive character that which seperated it from everything else, making it common, because most of these redos are representative of the fad of the decade.
The other difference is that YOU ONLY view this process from a predetermined vantage point, that of a successful face lift.
But, history has shown us that most face lifts, especially repeated face lifts, have disfigured the golf course, not improved it. Your retrospective perspective is monday morning quarterbacking at its worst. You tell us the golf course is better, when the record clearly shows the opposite.
As Tom Doak pointed out, if all of these alterations were so successful, why are these clubs looking to undue them and restore themselves to the orginal work ?
The odds of preserving the architectural integrity of the original design are diminished when you remove yourself further and further from the original designer.
If I were an architect, one of my concerns would be that my work might someday be eradicated by a green committee or a series of facelifts.
I think most talented architects look to their designs as a legacy representing the quality of their body of work.
What you and others fail to understand is the repetitive, domino like effect that the first alteration usually triggers.
Few courses stop at one bite of the apple.
Hence the destruction of the original design is lost forever.[/color]
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This topic definitely has two sides that emerge..and I don't know how one decides who is a suitable architect today to fix the dead guy stuff of yesterday.....But Jeff Brauer had a very valid point when he suggested that architects get better with time (in most cases) which sort of negates the present fad of "restoration experts" that have not been involved in their own work handling the work of these dead guys.... JMO
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Pat:
I have just one simple question for you: what difference does it make?
In other words, why is it different if the perpetrator of the changes is the same guy or not? Isn't what's in the ground what's in the ground, regardless of who put it there?
Here's the difference.
There's usually only one creator, with a distinct vision of the golf course.
Now add dozens of architects, in sequential order to the process and what happens. A quiltwork ? A total distruction of the style, character and playing qualities of the golf course.
Equally as important, over time the golf course loses its distinctive character that which seperated it from everything else, making it common, because most of these redos are representative of the fad of the decade.
The other difference is that YOU ONLY view this process from a predetermined vantage point, that of a successful face lift.
But, history has shown us that most face lifts, especially repeated face lifts, have disfigured the golf course, not improved it. Your retrospective perspective is monday morning quarterbacking at its worst. You tell us the golf course is better, when the record clearly shows the opposite.
As Tom Doak pointed out, if all of these alterations were so successful, why are these clubs looking to undue them and restore themselves to the orginal work ?
The odds of preserving the architectural integrity of the original design are diminished when you remove yourself further and further from the original designer.
If I were an architect, one of my concerns would be that my work might someday be eradicated by a green committee or a series of facelifts.
I think most talented architects look to their designs as a legacy representing the quality of their body of work.
What you and others fail to understand is the repetitive, domino like effect that the first alteration usually triggers.
Few courses stop at one bite of the apple.
Hence the destruction of the original design is lost forever.[/color]
Pat,
This may be one of your best responses yet....IMHO
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I'm not saying it's easy. And I suppose there are probably more failures than successes. But is the solution not to try to improve the "classics?" I think Augusta, Oakmont, Merion, etc. should get great credit for trying. Yes, what they've done is controversial. Yes, some believe the courses have gotton worse as they "strayed from the original design." So what? I think if good architects don't improve the classics, they'll be irrellevant as golf courses, although fine examples of "what used to be." And you know the best news of all. If someone really screws it up, the problem can be fixed!
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Mike & Jeff,
Improving a hole or an entire golf course presents a dilema.
It may be possible to improve a hole or a golf course.
But, once started, where does the process end ?
Why does the golf course have to be a lab rat to the membership ?
The underlying foundation of my beliefs is rooted in statistical analysis, vis a vis personal observations.
I've seen far more disfigurations then improvements.
That ratio makes me overly cautious.
When I first came on this site I had a long debate with that cretin of armchair architecture, TEPaul. That debate centered on the vision or lack of vision of the man or men in charge of the alterations, in conjunction with an architect.
While I sided with the visionary member, TEPaul sided with the architect. But, the truth is, it's the combination that produces great results. I"ve seen clubs dictate changes, terrible changes, and I've seen architects make terrible changes. With a visionary chairman and a talented architect I think positive results can occur, and in some cases, the result is to leave the golf course as it is, or with minor adjustments.
Remember, if the process doesn't come out perfect the first time, you can bet the golf course will suffer further alterations in the future, until years later it bears no resemblance to the originators vision and design integrity.
Since Shivas asked the question of me, I would ask him, and those of you who support the process of improvement,
how would you improve on NGLA, Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Cypress Point, Pine Valley, ANGC and Friar's Head ?
I'm sure you can improve certain holes, so I'd be anxious to hear how you'd do it.
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Jim Coleman,
It's naive of you to casually state that if the golf course is screwed up, it can be fixed.
It can't be fixed.
Not for a long, long time.
Ask yourself, what club that's just spent 3,000,000 to alter the golf course is going to admit that they wrecked it and besiege the members for another 3,000,000 to undo the damage ?
It doesn't happen that way.
It takes a generation, or many administrations removed to undo the damage, and, when that process is begun, who's to say that other factions in the club won't press for other changes ?
That's the worst possible reason that I've ever heard for trying to improve a golf hole or golf course.
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Jim,
Here is one example I've shown before of the evolution of a golf hole. You tell me if it has gotten better or worse?
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c43/mkfine/CherryHills17ChronologyTwo.jpg)
These changes were made because someone believed they were making the course better. They would not have done so if the felt otherwise. One thing to remember is that without some extensive research, few would ever have known what was once there. Did you?
Mark
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Mark Fine,
I've always felt that your exhibit was one of the most powerful methods for communicating the dangers of making changes, irrespective of the purpose.
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I never know where to come out on this. I know I am very happy Harry Colt was given the opportunity to greatly improve upon Old Tom's whose routing which was an improvement on the prior routing at Royal County Down. Courses are not museum pieces. They are living organic things subject to change and evolution from season to season year to year. Golfers change and evolve too. Even without technology we are bigger and stronger generation to generation. I wonder what the average height and weight of a golfer was in 1925?
The bottom line is if the changes are for the better.
Who is to decide?
The architect as the original creative artist certainly. The owner or members, its surely their property right. Public opinion through the media (including the internet) can have an impact and raise awareness about the history, integrity and original intent.
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Mark,
Wow. If a picture was ever worth a thousand words...!!!
I am going to go listen to my old Miles Davis and John Coltrane LPs now knowing I will always be able to enjoy the original artists' intent in its full unaltered glory.
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Dan:
When you listen to those Coltrane and Davis records, make sure to get out your Victrola. And don't you dare go out and buy the digitally enhanced version. After all, there's no way you can get more enjoyment from your old "classics."
Mark:
Can you show me examples of good intentions gone bad? Sure. Does that mean one should never try to improve on a design? Life would be pretty boring if run that way.
I'll go back to what I said before. A golf course is NOT a piece of art. It's a place to play golf. Golf has changed over time; so must golf courses. If Pete Dye can change his course for the better 30 years later, why can't someone else undertake the job if Pete (or Flynn, or Tillie, etc.) aren't around to do the work? The only answer I've heard to this question is: because the new architect will inevitably screw it up. Sorry, I'm not that pessimistic, cynical, or self-rightious. And believe me, I've been accused of all three.
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When Tilly made his tour of courses for the PGA from 1935 - 37, he visited hundreds of courses with the express aim of seeing how the course(s) could be improved.
He made recommendations that work be done on over 400 of them and, in many cases, recommended LOCAL architects for the work, men who didn't have a national reputation or were considered major forces within the architectural community.
In visiting one of his courses, he recognized the problems inherent in the original design and said that he had to take "a good portion of his own medicine..."
I think all architects recognize their works are imperfect and that these become clear as the course itself evolves through time.
Not all changes are necessary because of the technology of length... many are simply because it makes the hole better.
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Jim,
There are hundreds of examples myself and others could show of good intentions gone bad. Restoration of the original design intent is just one way to try and improve on the current situation. Sometimes it makes sense, other times it does not. However, I contend that if you don't take the time to study what was once there, you'll never know if it was better than what you have now or not.
The other point you seem to be missing (or brushing over) is that there is often a big difference between restoring the original design and restoring the original design intent. I trust that is understood.
History and tradition are powerful forces in the game of golf and they can play an important role when it comes to differentiating the playing fields (especially in a very competitive marketplace where most courses are trying to survive).
I still stand by the point I raised earlier - I would be very hesitant to restore a hole just for the sake of restoration. My approach is more to determine and then present what was once there and then compare it to what currently exists. From that point on, the owners/members can generally figure out what is a better design. As Pat and Dan stated above in the example I presented, the picture almost speaks for itself.
Mark
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When Tilly made his tour of courses for the PGA from 1935 - 37, he visited hundreds of courses with the express aim of seeing how the course(s) could be improved.
He made recommendations that work be done on over 400 of them and, in many cases, recommended LOCAL architects for the work, men who didn't have a national reputation or were considered major forces within the architectural community.
In visiting one of his courses, he recognized the problems inherent in the original design and said that he had to take "a good portion of his own medicine..."
I think all architects recognize their works are imperfect and that these become clear as the course itself evolves through time.
Not all changes are necessary because of the technology of length... many are simply because it makes the hole better.
Hi Philip,
Is it possible to divorce Tillie's work for the PGA which involved a suddenly austere Tillie removing thousands of bunkers from the bleak times he was living in as the Great Depression was in full swing and golf course architecture work of any type had largely dried up?
This is the guy who designed the brilliant bold bunkers (and MANY of them) at SFGC and Bethpage, who conceived of the Hell's Half Acre concept which involved vast stretches of bunkering and employed it at many courses, and who seemed in love with courses where mucho bunkers were employed such as TOC, PV, Garden City, etc.
To suddenly decry the "overuse" of the bunker as clubs started to look for ways to cut maintenance costs seems to me to be less of a "design decision" or evolution in what he believed constituted a good golf course than a simple pragmatic marketing move to attempt to survive in rough times.
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Excellent thread and posts, Jim
Very many of the experienced and well-intentioned people on this site have the propensity to focus on the renovations/remodelings that went "wrong" rather than those that went "right." Amongst the latter are:
Shinnecock Hills
Muirfield
Pebble Beach
Dornoch
Augusta National
The Old Course
They seem to want to see the glass as half-empty rather than half full. This continually amuses me.
It also amuses me that people (including me--see immediately above) make judgements on how holes have changed based on old photographs or drawings and are CERTAIN that they and only they are right! Mark Fine has presented a fine set of aerials, but even Pat Mucci isn't old enough to have played Cherry Hills in 1937 to be able to knowledgably say that the 17th better or worse then than it was in 1963 or even today. You (and I) can guess, but we will never KNOW.
Pat is also wrong when he speculates that changes cannot be unmade. I have seen bad changes made good in my relatively short lifetime. It's not rocket science, it's just common sense, patience and a sense of humility that is required. Along with a love for the course. I feel sorry for Pat if he has been so unfortunate to play only on courses run by people without common sense or love.
I also ask Bob Huntley whether or not it was a good idea to bring in Mike Strantz to make serious renovations of what was a very good course at MPCC? Or even to bring in Rees Jones to make smaller, but also ameliorating, changes to the other MPCC course?
Welcome, Jim, to the sub-cult of GCA that actually believes that golf is a game played by people and for people,and that golf courses are just the medium and not the message. If GCA were an art form, we should be lobbying for Christo-like walls to be erected around places like Pine Valley and Western Gailes and Pacific Dunes, not allowing anybody to step onthe hallowed ground except curators. Now that's a great idea!
Cheers
Rich
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In a perfect world, it would be fine to make improvements to old and new courses, as long as everyone agreed they would indeed be improvements. But the world is not perfect, and there is no unanimous agreement on anything in this business.
Jim C., your argument fails to take account of human nature. It fails to account for the many architects who are trying to do work in good conscience but who are pushed into going along with a green chairman's idea for changing a hole even when they don't think it's the right thing to do [it's even happened to me once or twice, and I'm as stubborn as they come]. It also fails to account for all the architects who are out there today in need of work, and the temptation to make changes for the sake of change (and an income), believing that their modern ideas are better than those of yesteryear. Mark Fine's set of plans of the same hole speak well to that.
Yes, as architects grow personally and professionally, it is inevitable that there would be some personal second-guessing of past decisions, and no course is perfect. There is always the potential for improvement: and that's the Devil's contribution to the business.
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Mike Cirba hits it on the head, kind of. We are in a similar position today - the extravagant who cares what it cost designs (whether from the 90's or whenever) are under pressure to cut costs to merely stay alive.
When we talk about what "they" should do, as if we are stakeholders in any particular golf course, we forget that "they" must pay the bills. And, unless the members are paying dues from 1928 (and the collection committee is surely derelict!) then they have the right to make the course fit their needs in 2006 and beyond.
Should they maintain bunkers built by architect X at 120 yards off the tee, for example? Even with the best of intent, restoration is a matter of degree. The bunkers shown in Mark Fine's great Cherry Hills presentation above aren't exactly what is in the photo from the early days? Why not? Did they have to consider cart path access that Flynn didn't? Did they consider moving them back a bit or using some of the rebuilt bunkers over the years to save some money? If so, those are all reasonable decisions made by a reasonable group of people.
I have told this story before, but I consulted at Prairie Dunes early in my career. When we were discussing whether the 12th green should be flattened for modern play we actually got Press Maxwell on the speaker phone. You could hear him trying to recall which was the 12th green, and then he blurts out, "Oh, I never liked that green!" It has never changed, but that is some proof that the old guys weren't necessarily as in love with their own stuff as we presume.
I have already had several courses tweaked in minor ways, usually elimination of bunkers for speed of play and maintenance, or redesign and softening for maintenance. That is what the current course owner deems necessary to compete in today's market place, and who am I to tell him he should go broke maintaining a design I did anticipating $75 greens fees when he can't get the same amount of players at $35? I haven't lost sleep over those dozens of bunkers (some pain me more than others) but I might if I caused someone to lose his shirt.
How about you guys? Would you have any remorse over that? Or how about losing the course to a developer altogether rather than make a few cosmetic changes to improve the bottom line? Without Tillie, perhaps many of the courses we are debating today wouldn't be around to complain about?
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Mike,
Tilly didn't do his tour for the express purpose of eliminating one type of bunker, i.e. "duffer's headache," nor was he given a dictate by the PGA to do so.
His recommendations ranged from bunker removal to bunker additions to green relocations to redisgning entire series of holes to... do nothing.
He was asked to do complete course design (e.g. Hungry Mother State Park as an example) to answer questions regarding maintenance practices to turf and conditioning problems to... well, to most everything that an architect could be asked.
Take a look at the appendix in the bio under the title "PGA Course Consultation Tour." It lists every recommendation that he made in his reports to Jacobus.
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Jim,
I understand your points...
How would a great architect make the 17th at TOC better?
Tear down the hotel. Or as that's not too likely, move the tee so you don't have to hit over a building. Move the green further away from that pesky road. Better yet: transplant the entire 17th and 18th so it's not like they are part of some 19th century housing development.
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Jim,
Thank God Rolling Green has hired some outside experts to advise us on changes we make to the course. The good ones have done their homework about Flynn's original intent. It is the only way we can undo incorrect work done by green committees of the past. And the only hope to avoid green committee dominance of future changes.I think our committees work hard but I respect a process that uses our knowledge of the course in conjuction with an architectural expert. What is wrong with that process? How would you improve on it ?
Who do we appoint as the Grand Determiner of what is Good ? Since I feel there exists no such person the only thing that makes sense to me is to TRY to figure out what Flynn would do and then check that with an expert we trust. Although we can't be sure we are right the alternative is chaotic.
While I don't agree with all they recommend I don't see how a classic course can make decisions about changing a course WITHOUT divining the original intent.
When you say no one can know exactly what Flynn would would do if he came back today you are obviously correct. But, attempting to figure that out is a better process than the alternative of using the fad of the day.
For a classically designed course that has been highly regarded for a long time it is absolutely necessary that some people are willing to do the homework to understand the original intent. Without these historians of the course's architectural history the alternative is scary.
Jim, I need your help. Could you find out whether Flynn was involved in the changes made to the course within the first few years after construction. That would be helpful since I see those changes but can't say they were his work for sure.
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One other thought I have.
There are changes made to a course that appear to be so far away from the original intent that it is relatively easy to say with close to certainty that the original designer would never have made those changes. This is where the restoration efforts should focus first, particularly if affects playability significantly. If you also can show that the cost of that restoration is relatively inexpensive that is another reason to proceed.
For example, I feel I am on firm footing when suggesting that evergreens planted incorrectly in the 70's on my home course are a perfect example of this. Just take them down and voila! the intended course is uncovered. This should be the easy part but trust me....
When we discuss placing a bunker on a hole where Flynn had not placed one and not done so on later visits it gets very complicated. At this point consulting makes great sense.
Even at this point I don't see how we can know "what is better" without researching Flynn's work and concepts.
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Jim,
Here is one example I've shown before of the evolution of a golf hole. You tell me if it has gotten better or worse?
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c43/mkfine/CherryHills17ChronologyTwo.jpg)
These changes were made because someone believed they were making the course better. They would not have done so if the felt otherwise. One thing to remember is that without some extensive research, few would ever have known what was once there. Did you?
Mark
Mark,
Thank youf or this depiction. Particularly insightful given your involvement there. That said, an open question for everybody:
Is the Flynn hole really "superior?" Does the answer change if we shuffle the deck, so to speak. That's one busy golf hole, but it does look cool on paper!
Curious, not critical.
Mike
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Who said anything about a quiltwork? I certainly didn't. I asked what the difference is if the original architect does the changes or some other guy, not multiple other guys.
Didn't you read the part about continuity ?
Could you list five (5) classic or "Golden Age" golf courses that have had only ONE (1) additional architect work on them since the original architect completed his design ?
Your "what if" is a hypothetical, let's deal in the real world.
It is a given that quiltwork, serial changes are bad, which is why I didn't raise the issue -- there is no issue. Yet, Pat's response presumes it. The answer is a red herring.
No, it's reality.
First of all, Pat, if there's anything predetermined, it's your PREDETERMINATION that I view the process "from a predetermined vantage point". Where in the world do you derive that conclusion based on my simple question? Let's just say that BOTH facelifts would suck -- that by the original designer and that by a new guy ....the question still stands: what difference does it make??
Because your hypothetical stated that the works of the original and additional architect turned out well. The reality is that most don't and the the process continues over and over again until nothing distinctive is left from the original golf course.
And if history shows that most facelifts destroy the golf course (a conclusion that I share, BTW, but not necessarily for the reasons you cite), how do you know that the original designer wouldn't have wreaked equal destruction?
It's called common sense and finances.
Name five (5) classic or "golden age" golf courses where the original designer came back and redesigned the golf course.
Name me two (2) where the product was worse than the original.
The simple answer is that you don't. The only thing one can point to is the multiple facelifts-type destruction, and how do we know that if the original architect had done every change over multiple decades that the result wouldn't be equally bad? We don't.
More of your absurd hypotheticals ?
You know because history has shown that the original architect didn't come back over multiple decades and make bad changes. One only has to look at Donald Ross's work over three to four decades at Pinehurst to see the reality and the continuity retained in the golf course through the original architect.
Now, as to my retrospective monday morning quarterbacking, I'd love to know how you came to that conclusion from a simple question. And the statement that "you tell us the course is better...", well the simple fact is that I said no such thing and I implied no such thing. Pat, I know you know what a straw man argument is, and you just made one. I never said one is good and one is bad. I asked: how you know know which is better?
No you didn't, you stated that the results were the same, and history and reality show, time and time again, that the results aren't the same. History shows that courses get disfigured and that it's a repetitive process once the initial domino falls.
Pat, you know darn well that there are lots of courses that look to restore themselves as a result of NATURE'S EROSION of the original course -- green creep, evolution of bunker edges and fairway lines from imprecise mowing practices, tree growth, etc. You make this statement as if the only reason for a restoration is man-made destruction, but as best as I can tell after listening to everyone on here for years, the majority of the reason for restoration is to undo natural destruction, not man's.
That's absurd.
The changes you list above are simple to fix and don't require altering or disfiguring a golf course.
Most destruction comes under the guise of "improving" the golf course, and not from restoring natural alterations that have taken place over time.
What if the original designer has has a serious change in philosophy since he did the course?
So what ? Does he call the President of the club and say that he's had an epiphany and wants to redesign the golf course ? If the golf course has merit, noone will touch it, and if it lacks merit, the overwhelming odds are that another architect will be called in to alter the golf course.
You keep coming up with absurd, hypothetical situations that are predisposed to your conclusion.
Stick to reality
IN that case, woudn't the original intent be better carried out by a design associate who continues to share the original design philosophy?
If he did, he wouldn't need to alter the golf course, would he.
Blanket statements, Pat, get you into deep logic traps. You know that.
That's why I'm surprised that you keep making them, especially in a hypothetical, totally non-realistic sense.
Stick to reality, not phony scenarios.
What you and others fail to understand is the repetitive, domino like effect that the first alteration usually triggers.
Few courses stop at one bite of the apple.
Hence the destruction of the original design is lost forever.
How do you know that I fail to understand this?
Because you presented your query in the context of but one alteration to a golf course, and that's not the reality of the situation.
On what basis do you make this statement?
See my answer above
And even assuming that I do not understand, if the first domino falls at the hand of the original architect, how do we know that the results of subsequent dominos falling might not be equally perniscious?
Because the reality is that most architects will only fine tune and not totally alter their work.
The great majority of alterations by architects other than the original have a much broader scope.
Why don't you take a look at a golf course that's close to you, Medinah, and then get back to me with your thoughts.
And now, the grande finale: how do we ever know what the original intent was from the original design?
Because it's in the ground, permanently, for all to see.
Is the original design the only determining factor?
No, but it's a good start.
Have you missed the part about fine tuning ?
But, fine tuning is a far cry from alteration, and that's the distinction you fail to understand.
Can you look outside the "four corners" of the design to the architect's writings, for example? What if the guy writes that he intended for the course to be lengthenable as technology progresses? What then?
More absurd hypotheticals ?
Almost every architect incorporated the theory of elasticity into their designs, however, if a tee backed up to a green, you can be sure that the architect's intent was not to lengthen that hole.
How do you look only to the original design to determine original intent if the original intent was future flexibility ?
It's simple.
At the time the golf course was built, the original design represents the original intent of the architect.
However, architects realized that additional length might be required in the future, hence they allowed for elasticity in their designs.
If they wanted to design and build a 600 yard par 5 they would have, but, they didn't because that wasn't their intent.
In the future could you avoid using hypothetical situations structured to arrive at predetermined conclusions.[/color]
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Pat is also wrong when he speculates that changes cannot be unmade. I have seen bad changes made good in my relatively short lifetime.
Could you identify the golf courses and the features that were changed and then restored ? Could you also insert the time line ?
It's not rocket science, it's just common sense, patience and a sense of humility that is required.
You forgot the most important factor .... MONEY.
And, that's not so easy to come by when a golf course has just spent a good some of money to disfigure the golf course.
And now, you want to ask the membership for an equal amount of funds to restore the golf course ?
I'm curious, what clubs are you talking about where they so casually fix these disfigurations shortly after they occur ?[/color]
Along with a love for the course. I feel sorry for Pat if he has been so unfortunate to play only on courses run by people without common sense or love.
If the golf clubs you've played had common sense and love for the golf course they wouldn't have disfigured them in the first place and restored them shortly thereafter, would they ? ;D[/color]
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Mike,
Tilly didn't do his tour for the express purpose of eliminating one type of bunker, i.e. "duffer's headache," nor was he given a dictate by the PGA to do so.
His recommendations ranged from bunker removal to bunker additions to green relocations to redisgning entire series of holes to... do nothing.
He was asked to do complete course design (e.g. Hungry Mother State Park as an example) to answer questions regarding maintenance practices to turf and conditioning problems to... well, to most everything that an architect could be asked.
Take a look at the appendix in the bio under the title "PGA Course Consultation Tour." It lists every recommendation that he made in his reports to Jacobus.
Philip,
Thanks for the info.
Didn't Tilly boast about removing hundreds if not thousands of "useless" bunkers during his stint working for the PGA during the Depression?
I can't imagine they were all "Duffer's Headaches", but more a part of helping clubs manage their overall costs in a tough time.
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This entire thread is surreal because few of us have any control over what happens at clubs. So why worry about it? Additionally, it seems to me that there are many reasons for changes. Among them are:
attract a major, safety, drainage, ego, improve maintenance (quicker, cheaper), misguided "improved" playability and well though out "improved" playability etc.
There isn't much point in talking about renovations carte blanche because it is meaningless. Discussions need to focus on specific courses, specific work done and why before a discussion about renovation/restoration has any relevancy. It is very easy to sit in the judge's chair when one doesn't know the course like the back of their hand and pay the bills.
Ciao
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Mr. Doak says
"there has been a lot of favor for restoration here in the past couple of years, but if those clubs(and sometimes their consulting architects) had not changed the original design years ago there would be no need for restoration".
The problem is that many changes are going to get made by a club regardless. I don't know how prior changes were sold to the clubs but it seems now that the best "marketing" ploy is to say you are doing a restoration and paying homage to the original designer. Members like to hear that regardless of what goes in the ground. Sadly, most don't know the difference.
I would argue that many of the "restorations" being done are not because people did not like the changes made over fifty years but rather work needs to be done and oppurtunistic architects have figured out the most effective ploy is to use the restoration salesmanship job.
I certainly would not accuse any of the architects that frequent this site as guilty of this but how many guys looking for jobs are walking around saying they will not "honor" Flynn, or Tille or Raynor.
Of course, the actual plans may be quite different and we rarely gain any insight into this. And then when an archtitect really screws up we say the "members may have decided".
I belong to a few clubs and have restoration plans that have either been enacted or are being contemplated. Someday, I will post them. Again, they are all "restoration plans". Of course I know we only will get one or two replies because their seems to be more interest on food and cart girls and access. But we can give it a try.
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Hamilton,
I think that members who have done some homework with the same research used by the consultants can help their clubs. They have a stronger interest in getting it right than a consultant. This can bring that "restoration" closer to the ideal.
This interaction between consulant and informed member doesn't guarantee success but can have positive results. I haven't seen any examples of restoration architects selling themselves . My experience is that their work sells them.
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Pebble Beach
Augusta National
I'm curious to know how you think these two were improved. Which version of Pebble are you talking about?
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Me, personally, I hate the "I can make it better, and if not, I can put it back the way it was" attitude. Seems like there are more examples of mistakes like Inverness, Oak Hill and many others than substantive improvements, but I will readily admit to a bias against hubris. Just a personal pet peeve, I guess.
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Pat is also wrong when he speculates that changes cannot be unmade. I have seen bad changes made good in my relatively short lifetime.
Could you identify the golf courses and the features that were changed and then restored ? Could you also insert the time line ?
It's not rocket science, it's just common sense, patience and a sense of humility that is required.
You forgot the most important factor .... MONEY.
And, that's not so easy to come by when a golf course has just spent a good some of money to disfigure the golf course.
And now, you want to ask the membership for an equal amount of funds to restore the golf course ?
I'm curious, what clubs are you talking about where they so casually fix these disfigurations shortly after they occur ?[/color]
Along with a love for the course. I feel sorry for Pat if he has been so unfortunate to play only on courses run by people without common sense or love.
If the golf clubs you've played had common sense and love for the golf course they wouldn't have disfigured them in the first place and restored them shortly thereafter, would they ? ;D[/color]
Pat
The first one that springs to mind is the 3rd at Dornoch. I'm sure there are others. I've posted this before (a lot of it is even on the siderbars to your left) but will repeat it, for the memory challenged and the newbies.
The 3rd at Dornoch used to have a tee at the same level as the 18th, and after you walked through the gorse from the 2nd green, it presented a magnificent view of the core of the links. In the mid-80's a homeowner (who had built his home a few years earlier) up on the ridge to the left of the hole complained that golf balls were occasionally getting into his garden and endangering his children. For reasons that only a lawyer or insurance professional could love, the club agree to alter the 3rd to solve his grievances. And so.......
.....they dug a deep trench at the site of the tee and lowered it by 20-30 feet so that you drove out of a bunker with high walls on each side. They angled the bunker tee to the right. They dug up the middle of the fairway and placed huge flat Myrtle Beach type bunkers to further dissuade players from going left. They removed one or two of the pot bunkers down the right that defined the strategy for the hole.....
All in all it was NOT a pretty sight.....
Then, 5-10 years later, they came to their senses and raised the tee (to about 10 feet short ofwhere it originally was), got rid of the sandy amoebas in the middle of the fairway, restored the bunkering on the right, and the hole plays nearly as well as it did 25 years ago.
Financial Cost. Don't know but probably in the low tens of thousands of £££ for the whole cycle. Not much for a club with Dornoch's finances.
Other Costs. More significant, in terms of having a carbuncle on one of the finest holes of one of the finest courses in the world for 5-10 years.
Were there more more questions?
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Pebble Beach
Augusta National
I'm curious to know how you think these two were improved. Which version of Pebble are you talking about?
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Me, personally, I hate the "I can make it better, and if not, I can put it back the way it was" attitude. Seems like there are more examples of mistakes like Inverness, Oak Hill and many others than substantive improvements, but I will readily admit to a bias against hubris. Just a personal pet peeve, I guess.
George
Vis a vis Pebble, I take for granted what the Mackenzieheads say that the good Doctor made the 8th what it is today. That's enough for me, although I also think that the previously "alpinized" 7th (from the photos I have seen) was an abomination....
As for Augusta, I think it gets better and better every year. This is not to say that the origninal course was not also a great one, nor that some of the changes have not been my cup of tee. Since Bobby Jones oversaw most of the most significant changes, I'll defer to the big guy. Also, it is comforting that the powers that be seem to be willing to reverse bad decisions (viz. the mutilation of the 8th some years ago).
Hope this helps! :)
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Seems like there are more examples of mistakes like Inverness....
Yeah, we should have really restored Ross' original intent of a 17 hole golf course, don't ya think? ;)
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Geroge P
Not to pile on, but without "hubris" there would never be progress. Ayn Rand and Howard Roarke would have known that, as did the Greeks.....
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Seems like there are more examples of mistakes like Inverness....
Yeah, we should have really restored Ross' original intent of a 17 hole golf course, don't ya think? ;)
At least my score would be lower.
Thanks, Rich. Someone did a little computer thing awhile ago of the original ANGC, and, not surprisingly, I thought it was more interesting.
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Mark,
Awesome example, probably one of the best sets I've seen.
The planting on the island strikes me as much as any of the bunkering changes. The open view would have a far greater effect.
I wish you luck getting it all done.
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My problem with the original post is the underlying premise that merely because we have greater technology and more years of experience, modern architecture is necessarily better than the classics. Shades of Alexander Pope! When he said "every day in every way we are getting better" he was incorrect and that sentiment is not correct today in many fields. While we have a greater ability to move earth and grow grass, the element that separates great architecture from the mediocre is the artistic vision of the designer. There is no evidence that this vision has improved. I will concede the liklihood that the average course has improved. But at the top of the profession it would be hard to argue that even our personal favorites produce better products than Thomas, Flynn, Mackenzie, Raynor, Tillinghast etc. Moreover, the liklihood that those altering the classics will be less than the best is great. In my hometown (and on my home course) some wonderful courses created by outstanding architects were defaced in the name of modernization by Jeff Brauer's first employers among others. While some of us have tried to repair the damage, it is not as easy as posited here, particularly when the repair costs money and the members paying also paid for the initial changes. In short, we can build courses that work better from a technical point of view due to advances in earthmoving, drainage, agronomy,and maintenance equipment. But no one has invented a better creative process and it is best to be careful in tampering with the works of truly creative people. Finally, regarding the music analogy, technical advances may allow us to hear more clearly the notes played by Miles, Trane, Bird, Dizzy, Louis, Bags and my other musical idols. But we are still listening to the notes that they played and we continue to marvel at the creative genius that allowed them to construct the solos for which they are famous while lending their own distinct tone to their instruments. I doubt that anyone would suggest that we would improve their work by allowing a modern player to " improve" their recordings by erasing part of a solo and dubbing in new notes. Again, the technical tools may be better but its the creatve process that makes the difference.
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Mike,
Is #17 as it was a "busy hole" as you put it, yes it is. Is it better than what is there now? That answer might vary from person to person. The reason I presented it here was mainly to demonstate the value of taking the time and effort to present such research. If there was no regard for "restoration", this research work would not have been done. The club would never know what they once had and how it evolved. The member who pulled me aside one day and said, "Mr. Fine, I don't understand why you think we should consider putting in those fairway bunkers and taking all those trees down on the island?" That same member later apologized to me after seeing my presentation. He never realized how that hole had evolved to the point where nearly all of the interest and strategy was sucked right out of it.
As Jeff pointed out, some alternations needed to be made but again the idea is not necessarily to "restore the design of the original hole", it is to try and restore "the design intent" of Flynn's original hole. This is the goal on all the holes and the chronology story for most all of the others is just as compelling (or should I say interesting). ;)
Rich,
What courses have improved and what ones have not, is very subjective. I tried to point this out earlier. In some ways, I look at what I am doing more as an educator. In the case of Cherry Hills, I'm not going to be playing their course every day. It's the members there that ultimately need to decide what is best for their club. Sometimes the decision what to do is obvious. Other times it takes more study and effort to make a decision.
Ian,
Thanks for the comment. You should see some of the other holes and how they have evolved. It is fascinating.
Mark
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Rich Goodale,
You cite one measely hole on one golf course as the body and substance of your argument ?
We're not talking about tweaking, we're talking about substantive changes to a golf course.
When you view project changes in the context of the size of their budget you'll begin to understand my point.
No club spends $ 1,000,000, $ 2,000,000 or more, quickly realizes their mistake and immediately raises another
$ 1,000,000, $ 2,000,000 or more to correct it.
Acknowledging the mistake usually takes several administrations and raising that kind of money takes at least a decade.