Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: John Kavanaugh on December 22, 2005, 10:09:28 AM
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Would it be long, short, tight, easy or hard...how would you build a par four that gives you the best chance to win...
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It would have plenty of windmills, go through Abe Lincoln's closing and opening long legs* and end up at a volcano green.
Minigolf is the only way I'd have a chance. And even then he beats me 9 times out of 10.
Real golf? No way. There is nothing involved in the game he's not WAY better than me at.
Of course if I had to give myself a chance, well it would be a tricked-up tiny par four where both of us have to lay up off the tee - I'm talking no possible way to go for the green. My only hope is a wedge battle then to a HUGE green - if it's a small green, well then his huge superiority in wedge play means he hits it, I don't, he wins. If we both have putts, maybe 1 out of 20 I make 3 and he fails to do so.
TH
* mandatory Simpsons reference.
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John: If I seriously wanted to build a hole where I had a chance to play Tiger Woods pretty even, here's what I would do:
The hole would be about 400 yards long so he can't drive it and I can still get there in two.
The green would be IMPOSSIBLE to hold, so we would both have to settle for being over the back with our second shots.
I'd have to beat him from there, which I can't do anymore, but at least I'd have a fighting chance.
Either that, or build a mini-golf par-4.
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Either that, or build a mini-golf par-4.
I'd quote the adage about great minds, but well you all know how aw-shucks I am and how I hate to pat myself on the back.
;)
TD - Tiger beats you in that scenario. No offense but his short-game is WAY better than yours, and I say that having never seen you play. But that does give you a chance. I just think you have a better chance if it's a huge green and you're both putting for three every time. Hell Tiger's human and does miss putts. ;)
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I'll say a short 4 that Tiger CAN drive, but is penalized severely for missing. The layup option has to leave us both with 80 yds. or so and to a relatively simple green. I have a better chance (though still pathetically small) with a wedge and a flat, straight putt than with a chip and a putt to a green so severe (as in Tom Doak's scenario) that Tiger can't hold it with his second shot.
My best hope of winning, obviously, is for him to try to drive the green and miss, and have to hit 3 from the tee! ;D
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Of all the holes I play on a regular basis this one best fits my game and takes away Tigers length advantage...my best chance is a lucky bounce on the drive and making a 2 to Tigers 3....It's an interesting theory making the hole easier rather than harder..
http://www.norwoodhills.com/Home.aspx?ContentID=58
go to hole 5..but I could take any of the first 5 short par 4's..it is a really cool start on a neat old course.
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I would put a huge water hazard between my landing area on the drive and his landing area so that our second shots would be the same at about 150 yards. The water would extend to about thirty yards short of the green so that I could have the option of running the ball on if necessary. I would then try to make it into a putting contest with me draining a long putt for birdie and Tiger missing a short putt for par.
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I would put a huge water hazard between my landing area on the drive and his landing area so that our second shots would be the same at about 150 yards. The water would extend to about thirty yards short of the green so that I could have the option of running the ball on if necessary. I would then try to make it into a putting contest with me draining a long putt for birdie and Tiger missing a short putt for par.
Bill - that's exactly what I have in mind - something where we're both forced to hit a 2nd shot from the same distance - then make it a putting contest. I just added I want the green huge because if I miss it's game over - and he's not gonna miss the green hardly ever, so making it small doesn't help me.
TH
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No chance, Cyrus Vance. I'm dead meat.
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If I could combine the difficult drive on Victoria Nationals number 2 with the blind approach from number 3..I could beat Tiger 10% of the time..
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Barney-The link you provided doesn't take one to a specific hole but only a summary of the front nine on the East Course. Is it #5 that you are talking about (270 yard par four)? That would make sense given your scenario. Whoops, you added it as I was writing. In the words of Emily Latella, "Never mind."
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Barney-The link you provided doesn't take one to a specific hole but only a summary of the front nine on the East Course. Is it #5 that you are talking about (270 yard par four)? That would make sense given your scenario.
Yea..It's the 5th hole...You know how some holes just fit your eye.
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Are we talking could or have to? Could I would like to take my chance on just about any hole under 450. If I had to beat him no matter what, it would be a hole that a forced layup is a must, and leaves us both a shot of less then 150. Then i still would have to hit a great shot to beat him. It would play about 400 yards, from the 120 mark to the green all carry i do not want to give him a chace to be heroic.
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I like where you were going with this. Of course since I'm building it and will have played it a ton of times and the first look he gets at it is from the tee box, lots of hidden trouble long (i.e. run-away fairway, uneven lies, hidden pot bunkers, etc) MIGHT give me a fighting chance. The question wasn't to make a fair hole for him, so I'm thinking a plush fairway for me and hardpan for him....
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On second thought, I meet him on the 8th tee at the Hill Course at French Lick Springs. He gets no advantage off the tee (put the tee as far back and left as possible and hope he can't fly the trees and drive the green) and his pitch shots just keep spinning back off the green down into the valley. On the other hand, my patented no-spin chopped clothesline approach runs right up to the hole, played with a Top-Flite of course. The greens are stimping at 6 tops.
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/00000370.jpg)
Yeah, that's the ticket.
Mike
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It would be built on totally flat land in the plains. The fairway grass would be long enough to prevent a great amount of spin being put on the ball. The championship tees would be 498 yards for Tiger to play. The old fart tees would be 348 yards for me to play. :)
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I agree with the forced layup idea. Something like a 300 yard hole that takes a 90-degree dogleg at about 200 yards from the tee. Massive redwoods on the inside of the dogleg so he can't go over. That leaves us both with a 100-yard shot to the green. A full sandwedge for me and hopefully leaves him between clubs. Of course, the hole would suck from an architectural standpoint—and I'd still lose—but it would be my best chance of beating him.
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"and leaves us both a shot of less then 150. Then i still would have to hit a great shot to beat him"
What about a Par-4 similar to the seventh at Pine Valley. Say, 330 or something to carry the bunker-wasteland thing or 220 to the front of it. Tiger could think about making the carry, but theres no way it would really happen! If he didnt you would still have the same 150 yard shot as Tiger.
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First hole at TOC? To beat Tiger, you have to somehow subdue his power and short game advantages. You have to put a cross-hazard before the green and eliminate difficult up and downs or exceedingly difficult putts.
Even then your best hope is dormie...
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Jordan, I have seen some of the shots he hits under tournament pressure. I would hate to have him not thinking about score in recreational play, hey if I can carry it 350 I can go over it, he would do it, then I am screwed!! ;D
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Ok, make it a carry of 360 and put the hazard in front of the green. Make the hole a little downwind. There is NO WAY he could carry 360 yards. But he might think so...Remember it hurts your ego not to try these things (ie. 360 carries)
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"If you had to build a par 4 where you could beat Tiger...."
John:
The only way to build a par 4 where any of us could beat Tiger would be to have a little sign attached the ball washer on the tee with an arrow pointing to a holster with a .38 in it (also attached to the ball washer) so you could shoot him as he was teeing off.
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But isn't par arbitrary? ;D
I would make it a putting green with tee markers 12 feet from the hole. I figure he is 7 or 8 of 10 from there and I'm 4 of 10 from there...
I say that gives me better odds of beating him than any setup involving the long game and the short (non-putting) game.
So the hole has to be won with a double-eagle...who cares, right?
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An ultra-short par 4 with severe penalties for close misses. He would have no choice but to go for it, and I would hit my 5-iron and a SW from 80...i would probably make birdie 1 of 4, and if he didn't hit his 3-wood perfectly, he would make lots of 4s. #6 at Tedesco (277 uphill) and #6 at Myopia (260 over a creek with a very severe green are good examples.
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First hole at TOC?
Good call, can anyone remember Tiger starting a round there one over?
Who here can claim to have done one or two better than that?
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I'd make it SO short a par 4 that Tiger and I BOTH could drive the green, except that I'd actually be using a driver whereas Tiger would have to take something off, say, a 2 iron, and that fade might not fade enough, or too much. Then, if he was having 'distance control' issues that day, and also feeling a little under the weather, we'd both have putts for par. It's not impossible that I would make mine....
Peter
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I'll take any hole, Tiger blindfolded, with a little strategic manuvering of the tee boxes on my part, and no Stevie to help him out. I think I can get him now :)
There's no way in hell I could build any hole in my wildest dreams that I could beat Tiger on.
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If we had a hot putter, we'd have a shot on the 1st at TOC! LOL LOL. Just need to find "an unfortunate person"...
Tiger's play of the 1st at TOC:
4th round, 2000:
His first shot is an iron which comfortably finds the centre of the fairway. His wedge to the green spins to within nine feet of the pin. But he misses his birdie attempt to the left of the cup.
3rd round, 2005:
Tiger Woods, pristine in white roll neck and matching cap, is also given a generous recption and he follows suit with an iron safely down the sun-drenched fairway …Tiger's putt for a birdie from around 15 feet is six inches short and he also begins with a par-four
4th round, 2005:
Tiger Woods, beginning with a black sleeveless pullover on top of his trademark final day red shirt, hits his opening tee shot a little heavily with an iron but it is in no trouble in the centre of the fairway…Into the wind with a wedge, Woods is pin high at the first but over 20 feet from the flag….Tiger's opening putt slips past the left edge and races a yard by, but after gesticulating to an unfortunate person who has done something they shouldn't, he holes out confidently for a par.
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John,
Can I change the rules to include a little pre-putt wrestling of some sorts, I may be able to out wrestle him? ;)
Are you going to our show in Atlanta this year?
Steve
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Tiger has bogeyed the first hole at Pinehurst #2 three out of the eight times he played it in the 1999 and 2005 US Opens...I have played the hole twice and never made anything but par...Short par four with a tricky green is the ticket. As a qualifyer..he actually went par, par, double bogey, birdie, par, par, bogey, bogey...
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Interesting.... John and anyone else, why would you want it to be a tricky green?
Not that I'm hearkening back to a long-ago many-paged thread in which quite a few thought I was insane, but well... I'd just be interested in the reasoning.
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Tiger has bogeyed the first hole at Pinehurst #2 three out of the eight times he played it in the 1999 and 2005 US Opens...I have played the hole twice and never made anything but par...Short par four with a tricky green is the ticket.
John, looks like you could make it at least through local qualifying!
But doesn't a harder hole highlight our weaknesses? I've played #2 a number of times, even when the grandstands were going up in prep for the '99 Open, but not when the greens were how the USGA wanted them. I would think that, in those circumstances, the margin for error is comfortably outside my abilities yet within Tiger's. Advantage: Tiger.
Wouldn't we do better with a flat green and surrounds that offered no great penalty for error, yet no great advantage for success?
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Aha!
Mark is getting to the meat of the matter, re greens.
Mark, there was a LENGTHY topic on this quite awhile back. Not that I at all want to go through the torturous debate AGAIN, but my contention was that the trickier the green, the more we both miss putts, giving me the advantage over Tiger, who would make far more than I on a flat green. My assumption is that we both miss our first and I can match him with the two putt.
Many found me insane for this. I remain confident in my sanity and choose to believe they missed the point. ;D
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My hole would be the following:
360 yd Par 4
Gnarly waster bunker with no rakes starting at 90 yds from the green or at the 280 mark of the tee.
I would hit drive 270 leaving with 100 yds. exactly to the pin which would be on the back portion of the green with a steep dropoff to long rough grass hollow over the green..5 steps behind the pin.
The hole would play into the wind and the pitch 5 steps in front of the pin would exceed 2%.
I would be able to hit my drive 270, leaving 100 exactly to the pin. Since I don't spin the ball a lot, I can fly my sand wedge exactly 100 yds. 80 % of the time, leaving myself with a birdie putt under 10 feet 50% of the time.
Since Tiger would have to lay up off the tee, we would have approximately the same shot into the green after his stingeg 2 iron or 3 wood. Since he spins the ball a lot, he would have to play past the pin to draw the ball back to pin high. But, there isn't room because of the drop off behind the green. If he lands his shot pin high into the wind, he will draw the ball back to the front of the green and have a long birdie putt. He will be forced to hit some kind of dead hands half wedge which, even for Tiger, is very difficult to judge distance.
Yep, I could play Tiger even or beat him most times on this hole. That is the only one I can think of, however. that I would even have a chance. But, I would bet on me on this hole.
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Tiger has bogeyed the first hole at Pinehurst #2 three out of the eight times he played it in the 1999 and 2005 US Opens...I have played the hole twice and never made anything but par...Short par four with a tricky green is the ticket.
John, looks like you could make it at least through local qualifying!
But doesn't a harder hole highlight our weaknesses? I've played #2 a number of times, even when the grandstands were going up in prep for the '99 Open, but not when the greens were how the USGA wanted them. I would think that, in those circumstances, the margin for error is comfortably outside my abilities yet within Tiger's. Advantage: Tiger.
Wouldn't we do better with a flat green and surrounds that offered no great penalty for error, yet no great advantage for success?
I would take Tiger on at Pinehurst before I would at Bethpage...We went to great lengths a couple of years ago to prove that severe greens are the great equalizer...I doubt if Tiger could out putt me on the hood of a moving car..but he'd kick my ass at Bethpage..
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Fair point. Length is a killer...ask Corey Pavin.
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JK:
It gladdens my heart that your recollection was that the hypothesis I so vigorously supported was "proven" several years ago. I'm sure there are quite a few though who will disagree with the word "proven."
;D
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My hole would be the following:
360 yd Par 4
Gnarly waster bunker with no rakes starting at 90 yds from the green or at the 280 mark of the tee.
I would hit drive 270 leaving with 100 yds. exactly to the pin which would be on the back portion of the green with a steep dropoff to long rough grass hollow over the green..5 steps behind the pin.
The hole would play into the wind and the pitch 5 steps in front of the pin would exceed 2%.
I would be able to hit my drive 270, leaving 100 exactly to the pin. Since I don't spin the ball a lot, I can fly my sand wedge exactly 100 yds. 80 % of the time, leaving myself with a birdie putt under 10 feet 50% of the time.
Since Tiger would have to lay up off the tee, we would have approximately the same shot into the green after his stingeg 2 iron or 3 wood. Since he spins the ball a lot, he would have to play past the pin to draw the ball back to pin high. But, there isn't room because of the drop off behind the green. If he lands his shot pin high into the wind, he will draw the ball back to the front of the green and have a long birdie putt. He will be forced to hit some kind of dead hands half wedge which, even for Tiger, is very difficult to judge distance.
Yep, I could play Tiger even or beat him most times on this hole. That is the only one I can think of, however. that I would even have a chance. But, I would bet on me on this hole.
Nice hole and better wedge play...
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I don't think there is any hole where I could consistantly beat Tiger. The examples given are fine examples of holes that would give a better chance, but they are all based on him playing the hole poorly and me playing it well. This could happen on any hole in the world, but its not likely on any of them :) I think that I'd have a much better chance on a par three, and much less on a par five. Four would be somewhere in the middle.
If Tiger's only goal was to "not lose" the hole, then why would he try any reckless shots. Now the game changes entirely if he has to beat me...then there is more incentive for him to really try to make something happen. Otherwise, we've all seen him play from ahead in majors...its a rare occasion when he makes mistakes and beats himself.
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About 300 yards with water around the fall-away green (so he couldn't drive it) and a green speed of about 6.
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The 10th at the Belfry would work just fine...
a well timed cell phone in my golf bag might help as well
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JaKa,
I'd rather try it on a par 3. Tiger has gone +10 on them for 74 rounds this season but he's -62 on par 4s and -125 on par 5s
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But, I would bet on me on this hole.
JWL, you'd bet on you? No offense intended, but you might be the only person in the world that would bet you against Tiger. ;D
I would certainly not be betting with myself against Tiger. Of course, I'd try my best to prove myself wrong.
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I think most of youse guys is figuring to play him mano on mano! No way Jose!
I saw someone write that Tiger's handicap would be plus 10. I'm off 17.
So it's a par 4, 355 yards long, a waste area from 180 to 330 and a big flat green (punchbowl edges) and as long as I've got 2 shots I'll take my chances against the alien.
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Ben Voelker
LOL....you are correct. What I meant to portray was that that would be the only hole where I would bet that I could beat Tiger. I didn't mean to imply that I thought I would beat him....but I will say that I don't think he would beat me every time.....just most of the time on the hole I described.
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This is too easy. A 300 yard hole that's got a punchbowl green 150 yards in diameter that's very steep and stimps at 15, with the hole in the exact center. I'll tie him every time! Eventually he gets pissed off and has to leave for a big tournament so I'm declared the winner by default! ;D
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JK:
It gladdens my heart that your recollection was that the hypothesis I so vigorously supported was "proven" several years ago. I'm sure there are quite a few though who will disagree with the word "proven."
;D
Tom,
OMG, it's back!
The green would have to be dead flat; if Tiger can't get it close, or make the putt, then I have NO chance whatsoever!
I'm taking that theory to the grave! ;)