Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Tommy_Naccarato on December 04, 2005, 05:43:25 AM
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Was sent these images of some of the on-going changes that Bobby Raynum (long regarded as one of the more popular superintendents on Long Island) is performing at Atlantic.
Keep up the great work Bobby. The bunkers are a vast improvement.
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/PM1.jpg)
Hole#2
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/hole%202.JPG)
Hole #6
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/hole%206.JPG)
Hole #9
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/hole%209.JPG)
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Tommy:
You're showing pictures of bunkers again.
The second photo is clearly a change, however. Since the numbers were changed I have no idea what hole is what at Atlantic, but none of them had any side-to-side swing to the fairway such as what is depicted there.
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Tommy
Are you sure he's not going to end up with a course that looks like a ceo wearing jeans so that the hip folk might invite him to the party?? Mr Jones to Steve Jobs of golf courses perhaps??
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Tommy,
I would love to see a before picture of that first photo, which I think is the Par 3 over in the corner of that property. Wasn't it more Redanish looking before?
I always thought Atlantic got a bad rap here, and now it looks even better than it did before.
If Rees hired Jeff Bradley to do his bunker work, maybe even you would start drinking the Rees juice! :D
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Tommy...how can you tell this work is a vast improvement if you have not played the course. It's really quite simple isn't it...
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More pretty bunkers.
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The 1st picture looks like the head of a bald guy with a few clumps of hair :P
The 4th picture looks real good
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John,
I have seen the course. (part of it)
Tom Doak,
The images were sent to me, I didn't take them. Also, if you the really look at the images I take nowadays, its always trying to use ALL of the features I can get in the frame. I have learned this over a few years, that what composition is, placing all of the parts that make the image. Also, only a few of us can be so gifted and talented as a writer/photographer/golf architect/jet setter such as yourself! ;)
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Is the course any different or did it just get a new haircut?
Atlantic was kinda of neat IMHO in that it was a dramatically modern course in an area surrounded by classic courses. While I might not have fancied the round bunkering and forced curves, I never thought the course was worthy of the criticism it was given.
Sure the routing was confusing and the holes somewhat repetitive, but overall I thought it was a nice place to spend a day.
So now, is this course really "better" or does it just "look" better?
I think #2 is what I recall being #11, a sporty short par 3.
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If you ever want to see a perfectly conditioned golf course it is this one. Bob Ranum is OBSESSED with perfection and was formerly at The Garden City Golf Club. He's also a golf architecture wacko and could probably build a course on his own which would please the Treehouse.
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I will attest that Atlantic in is the condition catagory of Kinloch and Sage Valley-IMHO, the best conditioned course on Long Island. Garden City has had it struggles since he left..... :-[
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
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Maybe some of us would distinguish between a 'perfectly conditioned' course and 'perfectly manicured' course. And maybe some of us would just prefer an excellent playable course, and possibly find overly manicured courses rather ostentatious? Not to suggest that said super is not doing exactly what has been asked of him, and doing so excellently.
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Having only seen pictures, it certainly "looks" better to my eye, but as someone asked are any of the holes playing any differently? Have any changes occured to the mounding along the holes that I believe I remember others commenting on in the past?
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Ed Getka,
The holes play differently as bunkers are added and repositioned along with approaches the greens.
Some of the mounding has been eliminated, some softened.
But, with the development of large homes on property immediately adjacent to the golf course, I'm not so sure the barrier mounds should be altered.
Lloyd Cole,
What has been asked of him ?
Bobby Ranum, Rick Hartmann and others "get it"
The golf course is well conditioned, which most untrained eyes don't see. Instead many focus on the manicuring, which is the ONLY thing they see.
WAE,
The first photo is # 11 a terrific, short par three that usually plays into or with a right to left wind.
I think the second picture may be # 2, the third picture # 6 and the last picture # 9.
Anthony Nysse,
That's an understatement.
Mike Sweeney,
The fellow doing a lot of the field work, including the bunkers is Josh Keith.
# 11 looks much improved and the small tilted target coupled with the effect of the wind make it a great little hole.
Cary Lichtenstein,
You must be kidding.
RGKeller,
That's what this group likes.
I'd dare say that's what they tend to focus on
John Kavanaugh,
I can attest to the ongoing improvements.
Tom Doak,
They've also added some cross bunkering on # 13 and moved greenside bunkers such as at # 10, thus opening up the approach areas.
Plans are underway to lengthen # 16 and shorten # 17, making it a driveable par 4.
Most, if not all of the work should be done by spring of 07
Bobby Ranum, Rick Hartman, Dick Gilbert, Bob Morrow and others involved are making substantive improvements to the golf course.
Like many courses on the East End, Atlantic benefits from a fairly steady and strong breeze.
The East End of Long Island may have the finest concentration of golf courses anywhere.
Montauk
Maidstone
East Hampton,
Noyack
Atlantic
The Bridge
NGLA
Sebonack
Shinnecock
Southampton
Westhampton
Friar's Head
Laurel Links
Long Island National
And probably a few others I've forgotten.
I don't think there's any doubt that the clearing of shrubs and trees at NGLA and SH had a dramatic affect on other courses, likewise, the introduction of Friar's Head had a similar effect.
It will be interesting to see what impact Sebonack has on courses in that area and beyond.
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I don't think there's any doubt that the clearing of shrubs and trees at NGLA and SH had a dramatic affect on other courses,
likewise, the introduction of Friar's Head had a similar effect.
It will be interesting to see what impact Sebonack has on courses in that area and beyond.
Pat -
I'm curious what you mean by these statements. What effect has the clearing of shrubs and trees at NGLA and SH on other courses?
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What Atlantic really needs is some WW2 bomber treatment, a la Stonehaven or Domburgsche, in its fairways. Character isn't the course's strong point.
11th look now....inspired by PVGC's 10th? (The 11th was/is the best hole at Atlantic IMO)
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Pat Mucci
In my business it is common for 'misunderstood' musicians to malign those who just don't "get it". Sadly much of the time this means that we really just don't like their music. I think I've been around golf long enough to distinguish between manicuring and conditioning, and to know that excellence in both fields is certainly not mutally exclusive. I know nothing of Ranum's work, I think I must have played Atlantic before he arrived and GCGC after he left, and my comments were not meant as any judgement of his work.
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Mr. Cole,
I believe that Bobby has been there since Atlantic opened back in 1992. To clear up my statment earlier, Atlantic is the best conditioned course on Long Island, but ALWAYS plays like it should-fast, incredibly fast at time, and firm-sand topdressing of fairways and careful control over hte watering program. They "get it."
SPDB,
The removal of the shrubs and undergrown at NGLA and SH has vastly improved the quality of turf and allowed for things to play firmer on a much more consistant basis. When Karl Olsen was at NGLA, (Now at Desert Forest-lucky them!!) he was the first super to really do a documented tree removal and shrubs removal program. I've heard numbers in the 1000's, and he returned NGLA to what it once was. Same with Mark Michaud at SH-The removal of brush and undergrown prior to the '04 is incredible-Returned SH to it's glory.
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
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Anthony,
I am aware of all of that, but, if you look back at my post, that wasn't my question.
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Having not played Atlantic, it would be instructive to see some before shots.
Anybody got some?
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Mr. Cole,
I believe that Bobby has been there since Atlantic opened back in 1992. To clear up my statment earlier, Atlantic is the best conditioned course on Long Island, but ALWAYS plays like it should-fast, incredibly fast at time, and firm-sand topdressing of fairways and careful control over hte watering program. They "get it."
Anthony
My bad . I had assumed, incorrectly from your last post that Mr Ranum had moved there somewhat recently. I was at Atlantic in it's first or second year and my memory of the conditioning (which was certainly fine) is overshadowed by the overall atmosphere of the place (in which I include manicuring of the course, clubhouse styling, staff attitudes etc), which was not to my taste, and the course design, which I thought was OK when I was expecting more, maybe? I might also add that I'm sure I didn't know who MacDonald or Flynn were, back then.
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SPDB,
It just made all other courses, not just on Long Island, but all over America, aware of what tree removal and undergrowth removal can to course/turf conditions. It's part of returning the original character to the course, also.
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
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Anthony:
I have played Atlantic, although I haven't seen it recently. I am familiar with some of the boring bunker shaping that existed there, but I am not sure how the recent renovation work by Bobby Ranum has anything to do with tree clearing at NGLA.
How do courses across the country have any idea what's going on at NGLA? I just don't see the evidence.
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SPDB,
As with many GCA threads, this one starts out a certain way and then take off onto a different topic. The bunkering at Atlantic aside, MANY people know what the removal of shrubs and tree removal can do to a course as it was talked about overe and over at the 2004 Open. There has also been a large write up in Golf Digest and I believe SI about the tree removal program at Oakmont. Continuing this topic of removal....much of this started with Karl Olsen at NGLA as he began to restore it-Do you not think that other Supt hear what eachother are doing, maybe stop by eachother's courses to see what they're doing? Karl and Co. almost single handly return NGLA to it's glory-They moved up in the rankings and many course like that. They moved up because the course was playing like it was designed, the turf conditions return to f&f and full coverage-NGLA was the first of the big courses to do a tree removal-Oakmont, Winged Foot, Shinnecock, Baltusrol, Quaker Ridge, Medinah, Butler National, Oak Hill, etc....all moved up in rankings, we pushed back into the spotlight, but more importantly, allowed the course to play like they wer designed. We've removed over 100 trees this year at Long Cove-trying to open up more air movement and more sun on to greens as Pete designed them-In the 25 years LCC has been around, we've found that many of these pines grow 2+ feet a year-Many of these courses were not intended to have alot of tree grown, but as time went by and other greens committies made changes to the course like planting trees, the intended designs changed.
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
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Lloyd Cole,
The staff at Atlantic has and continues to be outstanding.
They make you feel like a member, which I think is the supreme test for any club.
As to the clubhouse, it's very understated.
That was intentional.
They didn't want it to be a focal point for social gatherings.
It's small but efficient.
What about it don't you like ?
Bobby Ranum, from the get go, has kept the golf course firm and fast, when conditions have permited. I've never heard anyone who has been critical of playing conditions, except that it might have been too firm and fast.
He and Rick Hartmann, the Professionals repsonsible for golf at Atlantic "get it", from A to Z.
Anthony Nysse,
Stop wasting your time with SPDB
He's been on this site for years, and if he doesn't get it by now, he's not going to learn from your tutorage.
Or, if you want to start with basics, try:
"monkey see, monkey do. ;D
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monkey see, monkey do. ;D
Pat
Let's leave that exercise to you and Hamilton. ;D
But, nevertheless, my original question remains unanswered.
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Pat Mucci
All of the 'top' clubs around NYC smell of money. I guess that can't be avoided. Maidstone and GCGC are the only places I've been where they seem to make an effort to express this at least in their own ideosynctratic way. What I didn't like about Atlantic is the same as what I didn't like at Indian Creek or Hidden Creek (where I thought the styling of the clubhouse was quite awful) - they are rich men's havens. They make me feel poor, a gatecrasher. Most of the folk who visit or join are quite happy to have some guy clean their shoes for them. Coming from a pretty poor background, and having worked as golf club staff (waiter usually) through much of my teenage and college years, I tend to feel that I should do that myself, or it should be me doing the cleaning..
I have never had this feeling at Nairn or Ganton or Woking. So I guess the British class system has made it hard for me to enjoy golf in America. I'm much more comfortable at our 9 hole semi-private. I hope some of my comments will make more sense to you now.
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First to stay on topic briefly I have met Bob Ranum a few times and he has always been great fun, and from people I know in the business who have worked with him Bob probably has one of the best reputations in the industry. Bill Shuford the super at Laurel Links came over from Atlantic, with a stop in between, and while he is his own man, I am pretty certain he is at at very high level in part due to Bob's influence, and Bill is at the top on my list.
Now for Lloyd I grew up in West Texas at Odessa Country Club, and at one time in the 60's and 70's that area per capita was probably the wealthiest in the country because of the oil industry and the club was a pretty laid back affair. I reemeber attending a greens meeting in Houston at a private club and the first hour was spent on the disgust they had for people changing shoes in the parking lot, and I laughed because people changed clothes in parking lot at OCC!! We played football in the fall next to the practice putting green, and we shot off our own fire works on the practice tee on July 4th. There were a lot more ways that the club seemed different then what you described encountering, but I understand your points.
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I was at Atlantic back in August 2002, and thought the bunkering along with the general look of the course was exceptional.. I especially liked the proximity of the roughs to the tee complexes and Im a great fan of square cut tees if time permits in the maintenance regime.
After being at Maidstone, SH and NGLA as well, the condition of Atlantic stood out for my money although its architecture wasnt as inspiring as the others in general.
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Someone posted a few months ago all of the work done at Atlantic since the begining. It was quite long, detailing the changes. Does anyone have it again?
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James,
Was the architecture uninspiring or the land itself?
For those who know the course well, what are the internal green contours like in general?
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Lloyd Cole,
When a new course is designed and built, and seeking members, do you feel that a minimal or modest facility will help attract them ?
Or, do prospective members want nice men's and women's locker rooms, eating areas, etc., etc.. ?
If a facility is built that can't adequately service the membership, why join ?
New clubs don't skimp on maintainance facilities for equipment and staff, why should they skimp on facilities for their members ?
I wonder if the clubhouses to the courses you mention were modern facilities fully able to serve their members when they first opened up.
I've always viewed Atlantic's clubhouse as very low key.
SPDB,
You know the answer.
And, if you really don't, I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain it to you, because, you should know the answer after tuning into GCA.com for more than a few years.
"Monkey see, Monkey do" is more apt than you realize.
Certain clubs are "role models' and copycatted by many other clubs. ANGC, PV, NGLA, SH, Oakmont and others fall into the "role model" category.
Ed Getka,
The greens all have some good tilt to them with the added feature of internal contouring and tiers.
# 1 for example has a subtle ridge running through it.
When the greens are at "pace" the internal features combined with the slope can play havoc on approaches, recovery and putting.
Likewise # 17 has a mound or ridge runing through the green, in addition to the tilt, that places a huge premium on the approach shot into this relatively short hole.
# 6 has an incredible bowl at the right midpoint of the green that can reward or severely punish a careless or misplayed approach, recovery or putt.
The only green without internal contouring would probably be
#'s 4, 10 and 11, but they still have varying amounts of pitch, and # 11 might qualify for the most subtle of contours.
When the greens are firm and fast, which is often, and the breeze is up, which is often, it's a highly challenging test, where being below the hole is paramount.
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It's interesting that so many complain that all "we" care about are the look of a bunker, yet so many in the industry put a great deal of time into creating bunker looks of any sort. The look of the bunkers is more compelling than other photos I've seen of Atlantic, so it seems as though the accolades are deserved. I'd rather see a greenkeeper tinker with the look than the placement. Seems as though Bobby Raynum is wise, in addition to being eminently capable.
Can anyone think of a similar course of Atlantic's stature that has had so many routing changes? It's actually kind of a compliment of sorts, that the routing could even accomodate so many changes.
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Pat Mucci
Clearly you didn't spend too long reading my last post. Which is no crime. I was attempting to bridge the gap between my sensibility which developed in post WWII, socialist government UK and tends to regard public displays of wealth as crass, and tasteless, with the heart on my sleeve American Dream come true culture that I see in much American Golf. I have no comment on what nascent clubs should or shouldn't do to attract members, clearly I am not in the mainstream. I never suggested I was, I hope.. All I said was I don't like that. I didn't suggest you should agree, clearly we come from opposing corners, and it isn't even a suitable matter for debate.
And, if you weren't simply being contrary - what I would like from a club house is - modest, clean, efficient and friendly. And no bag drop. I can dream.
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Lloyd Cole,
Actually, I did take the time to carefully read the post you referenced.
You feel that ALL of the "TOP CLUB" in the NYC area, whomever they may be, and, it might be helpful if you named some, "smell of money". I don't feel that way, but, that's just my view.
And, I'm not trying to be contrarian.
Your perspective seems rooted in your past, to the degree that it seems that you have a chip on your shoulder upon entering the club's grounds.
I've always tried to treat people as I've found them.
And, the staff at Atlantic has always been exceedingly cordial to me.
In all the clubs I've been to, their structure, simple or eloborate, glitzy or elegant, new or old, has had little to do with the most important of elements that you mention.
"Friendliness"
As I said earlier, when you're a guest and treated as a member that's the critical factor. And, at Atlantic and many other courses I've been fortunate enough to visit, I've felt welcome. However, not all courses project that feeling, and some have modest, clean and efficient clubhouses, with no bag drop.
Membership and management create the atmosphere, not the brick and mortar.
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Pat Mucci
I'm sorry Pat. I've spent quite a long time trying to breach the gap between our perceptions. But it is not getting anywhere. One man's meat, etc.
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Lloyd Cole,
We seem to have different perceptions, which is OK.
Let's get back to the golf course and not peripheral issues.
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Pat Mucci
Agreed, so long as there is no bag drop involved.
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I haven't been out to Atlantic to see the bunker work yet, but I can tell you it is amazing that Bobby got any work done at all after what he has been through this year. One thing I can assure you about Atlantic is you will not find better conditions anywhere!!! BAR NONE!!!! I owe much of what I know about grass growing to Bobby. He is THE MASTER of firm and fast!
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...yo Lloyd...welcome to 'our' world.
p ;)ul
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Ed,
Thanks
It wasnt the topography of the place as I thought that was the strongest feature of the course, I suppose i thought the architecture was just a little confused (if thats the right word) in places with regards to the styles of bunkering and the routing around the clubhouse. It is interesting to hear that the routing numbers have changed in a previous post - Maybe that helps my point...
Im struggling to remember the original numbering around the turn but the 'then' par 3 11th? I believe, pictured on page 1, is a good example of bunkering which for my money just doesnt fit with most of the other holes. Many would say that this is advantageous and shows variety...
The view from the 1st tee towards the 12th? suggests another complete change in bunkering style... and then the 1st itself has numerous bunkers - i remember down a side which suggests another clear design intent on behalf of the architect.
I have over 150 pictures of the place from 2002 so I would love to post a few via someone if theyd do that for me.
There was a lot happenening at Atlantic when I visited, the place had the most incredible colour variations - deep greens on the fairways, beach yellows for the roughs and white sand in abundance - it was a spectacle, but diluted the architecture a great deal
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Re: Rees generally and Atlantic particularly.
Problems:
Bland visually. Holes hard to distinguish from each other. Bobby R's work certainly helps solve this.
Manufactured look.
Bobby R's work helps this a bit too. The problem is the mounding will still look very artificial, but at least the "Rees' pieces" problem will be solved.
Lack of strategic interest.
If he is moving some bunkers, this could be helpful on this score as well. There is not much to think about as far as shot placement and options at Atlantic, so this could be quite helpful.
I agree that its generally in great shape.
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If there's no strategic interest, how did Atlantic get rated in the TOP 100 ?
I'd like to know how people can say the holes are similar.
Could someone describe the similarity in the first nine holes ?
The last nine hole ?