Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Matt_Ward on November 09, 2005, 01:51:05 PM
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Had the pleasure in touring personally the upcoming Bayonne GC designed by Eric Bergstol with course superintendent Bob Wolverton.
First off -- people not familiar with this particular area of New Jersey need to realize that golf in Hudson County is akin to a full scale course on the moon. It's a very difficult process for a host of reasons -- environmental, cost, etc, etc.
Hudson County is NJ's most densely populated county and likely one of the most crammed places in the USA -- 608,000 people within a tiny area of 46.7 square miles. Literally, grass grows by accident rather than by design given all the people, buildings, roads that dot the landscape.
There are two (2) golf courses coming to Hudson County -- Bayonne is one -- the other will be in Jersey City with Liberty National -- a project from Reebok CEO Paul Fireman designed by the duo Bob Cupp and Tom Kike. I plan on walking that site next week and will report then.
The only other golf connection presently in Hudson is the Lincoln Park Driving range off US Rte 1 and within easy eye-range of the towering Pulaski Skyway. There are future plans for a public course to come to nearby Kearny in the old landfill there -- that project by En-Cap will not be happening for a few years though.
Developer / designer Eric Bergstol is no stranger to golf. His company Empire Golf has been a leading force with a range of golf courses throughout the metro NY / NJ area -- among them being Pine Hill, Pine Barrens, NJ National, Hollow Brook, Branton Woods, etc, etc.
Bayonne GC is without question an achievement bordering on the miraculous -- especially when you make the drive off Rte 440 in Bayonne and head through the side roads which deposit you at a piece of land that fronts the Kill van Kull waterway and offers breathtaking views of the nearby Manhattan skyline and New York harbor. In driving to the actual site you actually think of the number of bodies that have somehow "disppeared" over the years in this forgotten location. ;D
Ron Whitten in the November issue of GD accurately spelled out how a flat peninsula has been transformed into a compelling design that features sand dunes -- 100 feet above grade.
In fact -- when you come upon the construction site all you can see if the towering dunes that envelop the "stage" created for golf. Once "inside" the dunes area you no longer feel as if Hudson County NJ is part and parcel of where you are. For all intents and purposes you could easily be at Ballybunion and other Irish links gems from across the pond.
What's really amazing is that no carts will be permitted -- 100% caddy operation. In addition, the maintenance will also feature hand cutting by personnel -- no machinery will be traipsing in and around the sensitive turf areas. With that reality the full time maintenance crew will increase by a third in order to keep the cutting operation in full gear.
How good is the golf ?
Again -- my views AT THIS POINT are based on simply walking the layout -- no golf shots will be hit until Memorial Day of '06 at the earliest.
The course sits on 125 acres with 26 for fairways, 2 1/4 for tees, 4 for the putting surfaces and 10-12 for the maintained roughs.
The approximate yardages for the 18 are as follows ...
1st (390) 4
2nd (380) 4
3rd (230) 3
4th (550) 5
5th (185) 3
6th (330) 4
7th (490) 4
8th (600) 5
9th (440) 4
10th (420) 4
11th (240) 3
12th (440) 4
13th (585) 5
14th (230) 3
15th (375) 4
16th (490)
17th (460) 4 or (500) 5
18th (485) 4
Time is short now -- but I'll be posting hole breakdowns (in thirds) later today.
Suffice to say -- IMHO Bayonne GC is certainly going to make a major impact -- it has the potential to be something that those lucky to play there will ever forget.
More to follow ...
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I guess one could call it Shadow Creek east - not that it's a bad thing. The question should be how good is the end product and not what did it take to get there.
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While we are waiting for the hole-by-hole description of Bayonne, here's the Nov 14, 2005 article from Business Week on the neighboring Liberty National. I can't wait for Matt's comparison of Bayonne and Liberty.
From BusinessWeek Nov 14, 2005:
GOLF & THE BUSINESS LIFE/Online Extra
Teeing-Off in the Shadow of Gotham
Reebok's Paul Fireman has a new pet project: A magnificent golf course within view of the Statue of Liberty
Paul Fireman, the founder and CEO of Reebok International (RBK ), has always been a huge fan of windswept-links courses, the kind that run along the Irish and Scottish coastlines. "The winds coming off the water give you a different golf course every day, and that's when golf is most exciting," says Fireman, 61, who has traveled to Ireland to play the great seaside courses such as Ballybunion, Tralee, and Waterville.
So in 1999, when Fireman was shown a blighted industrial site on the New Jersey side of the Hudson River, he saw the potential to convert it into a world-class golf course. Of course, it didn't hurt that the site rested no more than a thousand yards from the Statue of Liberty and featured panoramic views of the Manhattan skyline. "The property was just horrible, a hideous mess," he says. "But this was such an iconic location. There were views you could never replicate anywhere else in the world."
Fireman snapped up the 160-acre parcel for an amount he won't disclose and embarked on an improbable mission to convert the toxic land into a high-end golf course for New York's business elite. But even as Fireman readies the course for its official opening next July 4, he's in the process of selling Reebok to Adidas-Salomon for $3.8 billion. (He plans to stay on as CEO.)
"LANDMARK COURSE." The money will come in handy, to say the least. When Liberty National Golf Club makes its debut, it will be one of the most expensive courses ever built, with a price tag approaching $150 million. But with its priceless location, it has already become one of the nation's most talked-about new courses.
"From a location and setting and design perspective, this has the potential to be one of the landmark courses in the country," says David Simon, chief executive officer of mall developer Simon Property Group, who has signed on as a founding member.
In time, it's possible that Liberty will boast a membership roster to rival that of Augusta National Golf Club. In addition to Simon, other founding members include ex-New York mayor Rudy Guiliani, Wall Street investment banker Kenneth Langone, Boston buyout mogul Thomas Lee, and New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft.
INCLUSIVE VENUE. For an initiation fee of $500,000 and annual dues of $20,000, Fireman is selling not just exclusivity but convenience: He plans to run a high-speed water ferry to get members from the World Financial Center to the course in less than 15 minutes. "The ability to get off of Wall Street at 3:45, tee up at 4, play nine holes, and be home for dinner is unheard of," Fireman says as he walks the course one afternoon in late September.
Even with the steep assessments, Fireman says he didn't go into the venture to make money. "No good businessman would ever develop this course," he says. "But if you look at the great courses of the world -- Pine Valley, Shinnecock [Hills] -- they weren't built to make money. I like to think I'm leaving something precious for posterity."
In this case, posterity includes more than the monied elite. Already, he has promised some of the local high schools in Jersey City that they can use Liberty as a practice venue. "I would be thrilled if we had young people out here, because I want to give back. I was on the golf team in prep school, and we got to play for free at the Kittansett Club, a club in Marion [Mass.] that hosted the 1953 Walker Cup."
WILD BILL'S RAMPAGE. For Fireman, golf has been a lifelong passion. The son of a sporting-goods distributor, he grew up in Brockton, Mass. ("just a blue-collar manufacturing town"), and at age 10, began caddying at a local country club. "A dollar a bag, $2 for two bags," he recalls. "In the winter, the golfers would pack their bag with nips [of alcohol] and extra clothes, so the bags would weigh 50 pounds each."
In the early evenings, Fireman and his friends would scale the tall fence at a nearby club to sneak in a few holes before dark, much to the chagrin of the club's pro. "His name was 'Wild Bill' Shields, and he would come roaring over the hill in his old Ford Fairlane trying to catch us. But we would always run and hide over in the trees because we knew he couldn't see well."
During his teenage years, Fireman also became exposed to the ugly side of golf. "At the age of 14, on the ninth hole, in the middle of the course, I was asked to leave because they had realized I was Jewish," he recalls. He still wonders if he fell victim to the same prejudice in 1990 when he applied to a club on Cape Cod. After a member invited him to join, Fireman submitted his application, then saw it inexplicably languish. "I never got into the club, but I can't say why. I do know they had restrictive policies in the past," he says.
So when another course on Cape Cod, Willowbend Country Club, fell into bankruptcy in 1991, Fireman bid $9 million in a sealed auction -- and won. In the years since, he has taken pride in building an inclusive club with a diverse membership. "At any course I own, there are no blackball policies," he says. "At Willowbend, we have people of color and people of moderate means who all have a wonderful time."
DIRT RUN. Willowbend only whetted his appetite for the golf business. In the early 1990s, Fireman formed a course-management company -- run by his 32-year-old son, Dan -- that owned or operated nine courses, mostly in the Southwest and Caribbean. But it was only when he stood for the first time on that site overlooking the Hudson River that Fireman saw his destiny. "It's one chance in a hundred million that you ever come across a piece of land like that," he says.
Fireman plunged into the project with Dan, but the two quickly discovered the immense engineering challenge that lay ahead. Because of the heavy amounts of lead, arsenic, and PCBs in the ground, work crews couldn't shift the existing soil. If they wanted to build any contours on the pancake-flat site, they would have to truck in dirt.
And truck they did, bringing in 3 million cubic yards -- roughly 200 truckloads a day, every day for two years. To provide additional definition to the course, the architects, Robert Cupp and tour pro Tom Kite, put in five man-made lakes, a waterfall, an expensive underground air-duct system to keep the course green during summers, and had 500 mature maple, oak, and evergreen trees planted.
WIND HAZARD. "I told them, 'Whatever you think I want, I want you to take it up another level,'" Fireman says. The result is a 7,400-yard, par-70 course (that will play 6,996 yards and at par 72 from the member's tees) that blends the best of Scottish links golf with traces of traditional parkland architecture. In the second phase of development, Fireman will begin construction next year of a 50,000-square-foot clubhouse and will start selling units in the first of three high-rise condominium towers he plans to build with partner Applied Development.
On a gusty afternoon in late September, Fireman flew in from Boston to play his first-ever round on the course, or at least the eight or nine holes that are completed. He's still a seven handicap, despite playing no more than 35 rounds a year. We start at the 14th hole, a 149-yard waterside par 3 that he expects to bedevil golfers given the gusts blowing in from the Hudson. Fireman launches his shot toward the postage-stamp size green with a 7-iron, which starts at the center of the green, before a gust carries it several yards to the right.
"See how the wind blows? Wind management, that's going to be the real test of this golf course," he says. On the green, he hits his putt too firm, pushing it a good three feet past the hole. He misses the comebacker, leaving him with an opening bogey.
"FOUR-LETTER WORD." After another bogey on No. 15, and a par on 16, we move to No. 17, a 448-yard par 4 that plays straight toward the Statue of Liberty. Fireman booms his drive a good 250 yards or more on the lush fairway but leaves his approach shot just short of the green.
When my approach shot lands safely on the green, Fireman asks what club I had used. "A Nike (NKE ) hybrid," I answer, before realizing I had committed a faux pas. "I guess that's a four-letter word?" I ask. "Nike is definitely a four-letter word," he smiles.
As we chat during the round, Fireman makes clear his interest in hosting a major championship at Liberty. Indeed, the course was designed to accommodate throngs of spectators as well as space for hospitality tents. But Fireman doesn't worry about what the future may hold for Liberty. "I think this course will find its own destiny," he says as we wrap up the round. One thing seems certain: It will be one of the hottest tee times in all of golf
By Dean Foust in Atlanta
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Looking at the course ...
1st hole / 390 yards (4)
Set on an elevated tee -- the hole funnels through a narrow area for the first 150 yards before widening out to a genrous landing area. The approach is where the demands begin. Here you have a high dune that cuts into one's viewing area of the green on the left side. The further right you can play your tee shot the more the green opens up. However, venture too far right and a series of "natural" looking bunkers will be there to greet you.
The putting surface is well done. Bergstol didn't opt for the heavyduty massive contours -- at the 1st and throughout the round you get gentle "ocean wave" contours that sweep through the green. Two-putting from long distance can be accomplished but there is a distinct desire on his part to force the player to gauge the approach shot wisely and for the preferred area of the landing area.
2nd hole / 380 yards (4)
Here is where Bayonne begins to show its true colors. As you walk from the 1st tee to the 2nd -- you walk through a series of man-made dunes and you quickly come upon two distinct teeing areas. As you look down the fairways from both teeing areas it can very easy to not know what hole or direction you need to head.
Bergstol created a diagonal teeing -- the 2nd features a downhill shot over a detention basin to a fairway landing area that ends abruptly at roughly 290-300 yards. The key is not power but placement on this sod-leg left short par-4.
The putting surface is well done here too. The 2nd is protected by a solitary bunker in front and the green has sufficient contour to keep your interest. A fine change-of-pace hole and one that provides your first sightings of the Manhattan skyline in the nearby distance.
3rd hole / 230 yards (3)
Very tough hole. The tee box is set back a considerable ways from the area where you walk off the 2nd green. Bergstol has created his version of a redan type hole and it indeed cuts a very impressive figure.
The hole will likely play into the prevailing southeasterly winds which come off NY harbor and even though it plays considerably downhill it will be far from an easy play.
The landign area does provide for a shot to bounce onto the putting surface and everything lends itself to the ball funneling to the left. The key is not going anywhere too far left -- go that way and it's Elvis country -- as in deadsville.
There is a pot bunker that is taking shape on that side and it will ably defend that part of the green when completed.
4th hole / 550 yards (5)
Very intimidating driving hole. Although this par-5 is straight the dunes pinch in from both sides and heaven help the golfer who can't hit it straight. There is actually more room than what appears initially -- but the golfer's mind must make the adjustments.
The hole is helped considerably by cross bunker that mirros itself after Hell's Half Acre at PV's 7th hole. The bunker is taking shape now and more will be added to it and it will not be all sand -- there will be "debris" items included that make playing from the area a problematic matter at best. The cross bunker is roughly 350 yards from the tee so players should be able to hit driver in all instances. The cross bunker does extend to 420 yards so if a player badly hits his tee shot into rough or the like the element of danger with the 2nd shot becomes a major issue in terms of the carry over the cross bunker.
For those who play two fine shots the putting surface is located steeply below the fairway. A solid green complex as a huge and deep bunker serves notice it will not permit any half-ass shot to find the putting surface. There is a ramp like area to the right of the bunker and players strong / foollish enough to go this way can reap benefits if their shot is well played.
A birdie par-5 hole -- but one where double and triples will happen with much frequency too.
5th hole / 185 yards (3)
Plays in the reverse direction of the previous hole. Here you have a very straightforward hole but it is protected by a monster pit bunker that guards the entire front section of the green. The bunker is roughly shaped and will be finished later but it's mere presence adds much to the hole.
The green is again contoured appropriately without being excessive. There will be fall-off areas to the side so that any shots that miss the green by a foot could very well roll a good bit beyond that and thereby making for some interesting recovery situations.
6th hole / 330 yards (4)
The so-called "driveable" par-4 but frankly it's a big time sucker play. The hole has a huge bunker that guards that side at roughly 240-250 yards. You have ample room to the left on this downhill hole but you really want to leave yourself out at roughly 100 yards for maximum spin on the approach. The green is well below the fairway and there is a huge (unseen) bunker that serves its function for protection. The green hugs this bunker like a mother holidng onto her young infant. Well done bunker complex.
One other comment thus far -- the routing at Bayonne is extremely well done. You never go in the same direction more than once. It is constantly turning this way and that way. Given the site's location the force / direction of the wind will have a major impact when playing.
I also hope to post some photos so people can better understand this narrative. One other point -- the dunes have been located to provide a total encapsulation of the property. One has to understand that the Jersey waterfront in these parts is very intense with all sorts of uses. The dunes takes the player "away" from Hudson County and gives you a layout which melds the Irish motif quite well.
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I had dinner with Eric and Jim Coady while in Scotland a few years ago and they shared their plans with me. It looked incredible on paper and I have seen a few pictures recently and I really look forward to playing it next summer. I have a couple of friends that have joined and they fill me in in the progress as fast as they know anything. Shadow Creek East is an interesting analogy.
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Jim, et al:
The Shadow Creek analogy is a wrong one -- big time !!!
The course has more character and change of pace situatoins than what is at Shadow Creek.
You also have the dunes creations that serve a multiple purpose -- distancing oneself from the immediate surroundings of Bayonne and the harbor and at the same time focusing the golfer on the golf contained within.
The Irish motif is an apt one and frankly I see more in commong with Lahinch than Shadow Creek when at Bayonne.
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Rather than Shadow Creek East, it sounds more similar to Whistling Straits East. It sounds as though Eric Bergstol had to take a similar approach to Pete Dye in manufacturing the dunescape on rather flat land.
It seems as though Mr. Bergstol and his crew did about as much with the site as possible. I'd love to see some before construction photos of the site for comparison. I bet that's when everyone would really appreciate what they have accomplished.
A walking course that plays like a true links within earshot of Manhattan sounds pretty great to me.
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Matt Ward is spot-on...this course really is going to be something else. I visited a couple weeks ago and came away with impressed at how convincingly Bergstol and his team rendered this faux-dunescape. At certain points I couldn't help thinking of The Island. And it's kind of ridiculously funny how at the perimeters of the course, you can climb to the top of the dunes and take in the "stunning vista" of.......a warehouse parking lot! It's very much like Oz working his magic behind the curtain. By and large the suspension of disbelief is carried off quite well, though.
I felt the par-5 on the front, with a large marsh fronting the green (not to mention a gigantic cruise ship at anchor staring you in the face), was a slightly dissonant note. Not the type of hole you'll often see Across The Pond, but definitely heroic.
The course as a whole looks like it'll be very fun to play, and TOUGH. There's one Tiger Tee out at the point (Matt will know the hole) where the carry over the inlet looks to be about 280. The property is plenty windy, and tee shots from some of these exposed/elevated areas just looked brutal.
I haven't seen Liberty yet, but you can see its perimeter on the runup to the Holland Tunnel, and it appears they've planted trees on top of these suspiciously uniform duneforms.... ??? Will refrain from further comment on LN, though.
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Matt,
The course sounds like it has a Twisted Dune type feel. How do the two courses compare, both of them being faux dunes?
Jason
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Matt,
The course sounds like it has a Twisted Dune type feel. How do the two courses compare, both of them being faux dunes?
Jason
Jason,
For starter's, TD has a "carved out" feel to it while Bayonne feels "built up." Also the cursory comparisons to Whistling Straits is a very good one.
Let me be the first to unequivocally say: Bayonne will stun the golfing world with it's grandeur and manufactured majesty, while Liberty Nat'l will only stun those who pay the freight and have themselves to look around at.
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I felt the par-5 on the front, with a large marsh fronting the green (not to mention a gigantic cruise ship at anchor staring you in the face), was a slightly dissonant note. Not the type of hole you'll often see Across The Pond, but definitely heroic.
Ironically, not unlike the Dye's 5th at Whistlig Straights?
Mike
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Gents:
I frankly don't see the linkage to Whistling Straits to what is there at Bayonne. Yes, they are clearly "created" courses but the overall routing is much more sophisticated at the latter than the former.
In addition, the dunes-land creation at Bayonne is more of a self-contained unit and not just simply the garden variety chocolate drops and other concoctions that Team Dye incorporated with the Wisconsin layout.
For those who complain that both courses are "manufactured" the clear and certain answer is "yes" -- but I don't find that to be the overwhelming minus that others who are very narrow in their application of greatness would apply.
Bayonne tries to emulate the Irish links courses and I think it comes off quite well in trying to follow that particular motif. It reminded me more of the Lahinch style of dunes and the holes do ebb and flow with a far more creative variety than other courses that have tried to follow this particular course style.
Jason:
Twisted Dunes features significant mounding primarily on the perimeter of the property. At Bayonne the mounding is incorporated on a much more active manner and does influence approaches and those at or near the putting surfaces.
In addition, the holes at Twisted are easily seen throughout the property -- at Bayonne many, but not all, of the holes are somewhat isolated from one another.
Time allows me to only highlight the next three holes ...
7th hole / 490 yards (4)
Tough long hole that slides from left-to-right with a huge fairway bunker that is in the range of 300 yards from the tips. You need to favor the right side as the mounding slides shots back towards the center of the fairway. The green is also well done without bein excessive. There are elevated pimples in the surface and they can easily influence play.
8th hole / 600 yards (5)
Although I have not played the hole thus far -- I have to say this hole will easily garner as much attention as any at Bayonne. It is a stunning tour de force hole that captures at the same time the spirit of the property and the broader universe of the NYC skyline and harbor.
The hole starts from the diagonal tee area you enccountered at the 2nd. There is a huge center placed bunker roughly at 300+ yards from the tips and it must be avoided at all costs. The player who can slide a tee shot just to the left of tghe bunker will catch a slight downslope to a "platform" area that can give the player the option to go for the green in two blows. The catch?
The second still requires a 240+ shot to a huge 18,000 square foot green with more moves than Michael Jordan. If you decide to go for the hole in three conventional shots you must follow the landing area to the right and at the same time avoid a huge wetlands area that eats into the same side.
The optimum landing area is quite narrow (from 120 yards or less) and the angle is not an easy one -- especially if the pin is cut tight to the front.
The 8th at Bayonne in time will rival the nature of the other gem par-5's in New Jersey including the 12th at Plainfield and the 15th at PV. It is a hole you will never forget after playing it.
9th hole / 440 yards (4)
Fascinating uphill dog-leg slight to the right hole. Plays in the opposite direction of the 8th and the daunting nature of the tee shot is what comes to mind quickly. You need to slide a slight fade up the hill but never going too far to the right otherwise you meet an untimely and quick end.
The approach is played over a cross bunker area to a large target that is contoured rather sharply from back-to-front. Anyone handling the last three holes on the front side in anything close to even par has done v-e-r-y well indeed.
P.S. I hope to have some pictures to compliment the narrative. Words alone do not do justice to Bayonne.
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For those who complain that both courses are "manufactured" the clear and certain answer is "yes" -- but I don't find that to be the overwhelming minus that others who are very narrow in their application of greatness would apply.
I used to take such complaints seriously until I read in "America's Linksland, A Century of Long Island Golf" by William Quirin that NGLA was largely "manufactured".
Gee, Matt, your reporting makes me want to sneak onto Bayonne. I am in town every week to stock up on the best Italian and Polish food in Jersey. They say that the harbor-side public walkway which runs between Bayonne GC and the NY Harbor is almost finished - that may be an excellent starting point... Also - Bayonne residents get 500 rounds/year on Bayonne GC and more on other Bergstol properties as part of the permitting deal. Now maybe the time for me to get my fake Bayonne Resident ID Card... ;D
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http://www.bayonnegolfclub.com/site_images/77/uploaded_files/4982_1_MetOctNov05Er_2134F6.pdf
Matt,
Found this on their website...A PDF of a Met Golf Article with some pictures...It certainly looks interesting and will be unique in the world of golf...
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I think the 8th green? ??? 8)
(http://www.watervilleresearch.com/images/bgc8)
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Phelps:
The Met Golfer article failed to really give a sense of the course. There is much there and frankly very little came across. Only when you finally walk the site does the full impact hit you.
Voytek:
Make special note -- that any "sneaking" on will be met by a range of hungry canines who patrol the property. They really love GCA types who are noisy! ;D
P.S. The Bayonne resident deal you mentioned will not be as large as you think. There is a desire to be "open" but it won't be the K-Mart type club either. Eric is not interested in creating an east coast version of Torrey Pines.
Gents:
The next three holes are quite interesting as one starts with the inward half.
10th hole / 420 yards (4)
A dog-leg right where you have to be especially careful not too frisky in attemtping to cut-off too much of the corner. There are huge mounds that protect that side and any tee shot that gets up there will encounter a slew of problems. The green is very deep and wide and being precise with the approach could very well mean birdie here.
11th hole / 240-260 yards (3)
Extremely tough and long. The green runs on a diagonal from lower left to upper right and the far right side is artfully protected by a series of mounds that obscure the exact location of the hole. With a following wind from the west / southwest this hole is manageable -- have the wind come off the harbor and all bets are off.
12th hole / 440 yards (4)
Here you tee off very high and all the elements of the property and the scenery of the NYC skyline / harbor come into view. The hole plunges downhill to one of the widest fairways on the property (50 yards across easily). You have a series of cross bunkers that work their way across the hole -- roughly 350-375 yards off the tee. Unless the wind is favoring only the longest of hitters will need to concern themselves. The green is also one of the most subtle at the course.
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P.S. The Bayonne resident deal you mentioned will not be as large as you think. There is a desire to be "open" but it won't be the K-Mart type club either. Eric is not interested in creating an east coast version of Torrey Pines.
The 500 rounds/year for Bayonne residents is pretty much ironclad as this is an agreement between Eric Bergstol and Bayonne Mayor Doria as part of the permitting process. Cherokee was supposed to build TWO courses in Bayonne - one public and one private, but the public one was shot down by the Feds as they planned to fill in part of the NY Harbor to accomodate it, and that was a no-go. So, Doria got his 500 rounds on Bayonne to compensate. Nobody else other than members, their guests, and a few Bayonne residents/year will be getting on the property, unless they want to risk an encounter with Eric's patrol dogs... ;D
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Voytek:
Be very much interested to see who gets to play from Bayonne. You know -- will the average Joe Sixpack get to tee it up or will it be the "most favored" contributors to Joe and the boys in town ? ;D Likely, many of the Bayonne rounds will be during lulls -- early spring / late fall, etc, etc.
P.S. The K-9's have got the scent of GCA types -- so you best be wary of sneaking on.
One last thing -- the walkway you initially mentioned is well done and does give those using it a good glimpse on a few holes -- especially the par-5 8th.
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Matt:
Not to belabor the point, but the latest word from Bayonne is that only 80 (!) Bayonne residents applied for a card which allows them access to ALL Bergstol properties (public and private), at substantial discount. Apparently there are not many golfers in Bayonne (surprise!). This may be the best golf deal in the universe. Bayonne did good for the few golfers they have...
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Voytek:
I never had the opportunity to flush out directly w Eric the actual arrangement -- is it 500 total rounds at Bayonne or simply 500 rounds at a discount rate at all of the Bergstol properties? Or is the pass a separate issue and the connection to the Bayonne site is a limited one -- hence the 500 rounds. Be also curious if that's the case -- do people pay an extra surcharge for the opportunity to tee it up there.
I'm also going to check and find out what the dollar amount is for the card you mentioned. Clearly, that can have an impact on thos applying. For a community of 60,000+ people -- there's more than just 80 golfers in the community. That seems very low and may be due to the fact that little publicity has been circulated to date.
Gents:
The next three holes ...
13th hole / 585 yards (5)
Plays uphill all the way and is a gem of a par-5 to compliment the likes of the last par-5 played -- the 8th. Here you have a fairway bunker that hangs on the right side but is easily carried provided the wind is not in your face. The hole just keeps climbing and you need to nail two solid hits in order to be within short pitch range.
14th hole / 230 yards (3)
If there's any fault w Bayonne on my walk visit it's the similarity of the par-3's. Here at the 14th you get another version of the downhill type -- a repeat from what you originally faced with the 3rd. To be fair -- the 14th does have a false front and anything that comes up a hair short will not reach the putting surface. The green is immense -- you could have doubles at Wimbledon and still have room left over.
One other feature the par-3 hole is directly in front of the proposed clubhouse and you literally feel like you reach out and grab the NYC skyline.
15th hole / 375 yards (4)
One of the best par-4's at Bayonne. Goes completely uphill and poses an interesting situation for the player. The hole calls for a slight fade off the tee. Those who opt for the right side need to hit a very strong drive to counter the hill and the bunker that hangs on that side.
The green is also one of Bayonne's best -- nicely contoured and very demanding with the approach.
The key element at Bayonne is the desire to avoid
repetition -- minus the point I made on the par-3 side. The land generates plenty of movement and when the wind blows through the property the challenge will clearly intensify.
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The final three holes ...
16th hole / 490 yards (4)
Plays downhill a good bit and the views are indeed panoramic with the NYC skyline in the background.
The hole tilts slightly to the right and the drive needs to get as far as possible in order to make the second a bit more easier. The green is one of the biggest on the course and there is a ton of pin placements that can both add distance to the hole and demands with the putter.
17th hole / par-5 of 500 yards or par-4 of 465 yards
The teeing area hugs the water frontage of the property. The hole turns left more noticeably from the extreme back tees and you need to have a carry of 240 yards to reach the short grass. If you play the tee at 465 yards you can avoid the turning point and take advantage in getting one's tee ball farther down the hole.
The hole will generally encounter stiff southwest or southeast winds and as a par-4 will clearly be a real test.
18th hole / 480 yards (4)
A grand climax to a fine layout. The hole climbs all the way uphill and the pressure to hit a well-played tee shot is definitely needed. The green sits above the fairway and club selection here will be crucial.
I have to emphasize that my initial comments come only from an eye-inspection. The ultimate way to evaluate a course can only come from an actual round there. Bayonne has a number of interesting dimensions to it and I'm quite confident it will generate a fair share of comments from those most fortunate to play golf there.
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As an FYI -- the "surge" in golf in Hudson County will continue with the movement by En-Cap to open up no less than two new courses with one of them occupying sections of the Kearny landfill.
As of now -- no architect, that I am aware of, has been chosen. But the layout in Kearny will clearly provide a public option that needs to be filled.
The time frame for the opening is tentatively set for late '08 or likely '09.
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I never thought I would see the day that I agreed with Matt Ward but it finally happened. Sutton Bay in my opinion was a big miss. I couldn't understand in that huge track of land that they picked that piece and that routing. Like Matt said you are in the middle of nowhere and yet they decided to cram the course into that area. The funny thing is that their property line ends up near the 10th tee.
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Steve:
I'm glad to see we agree on something. ;D
The development of a public option in the Kearny locale will be something to watch. I'm hoping the design will be much more than simply a dumb-down layout that feeds people through the property like the drive-in line at a local Burger King.
P.S. The qualities of a routing are often vastly underplayed here on GCA and elsewhere.
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Matt - I don't think routing quality is underserved on GCA. Like many things, fondness for routing is subjective. Perhaps some like out and back routings because it hearkens back somewhat to the game's origins. Because they feel that way, and because you don't share in those views does not imply that routing qualities are "underplayed."
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SPDB:
Too many of the posters here from my observations focus on other elements -- some trivial -- while the totality of routing is often underserved at best and sometimes ignored at worst.
Beyond the quality of the land and the actual site itself -- the next most important element in any courser evaluation for me is the routing.
The original "back and forth" routing were done because people at that time didn't know you could go in another direction. That's not the case today. Look at how intricate the routing is at Muirfield and what it meant for other courses to follow.
From my experiences the more intricate the routing the better the probability the quality of the course will be over the course of time.
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"The original "back and forth" routing were done because people at that time didn't know you could go in another direction"
I can't believe I read this correctly, but it does say this. Matt, routings such as the Old Course, Royal Aberdeen etc that are true out and back courses are like that because they follow the links land that was available for them to lay the course out on, not because they could only go in one direction. If that was so all Scottish roads would be straight! if you look at Royal Aberdeen as an example, the links land between the ocean dune and the arable higher land is effectively only 2 holes in width and they followed this links land, not because they didn't know how to lay out a hole in another direction.
End of dissertation
Neil Crafter
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Neil:
Look at how Muirfield changed the dynamics of routings for golf courses. No more than two holes in the same direction. Clearly, a good ways beyond the "out" and "back" methods.
End of dissertation. ;D
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I misspoke on the time table for the Kearny course and the other that will be built by En-Cap in the Jersey Meadowlandsa area in Lyndhurst.
Likely time frame is closer to '09 - '10.
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Matt
It took some time before Muirfield ended up with the 'ideal' routing that it has now. And the site was not restricted to a linear dunes parcel which ultimately allowed holes to run in many different directions. What I am attempting to get across is that the original out and back routings were determined by site constraints and not much else. You can't suggest they were not routed differently because the people involved didn't know how to run them in diufferent directions as your previous post contends. Otherwise how did they know to stop and turnaround half way? ;)
Neil
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Neil:
The main point I raised is that quality routings IMHO are those that maximize the natural elements of a given site and do their utmost to avoid any repetitive aspects that allow for players to zone in through their shotmaking. Going in the same direction for three or more holes -- and in both directions -- is fairly limited no matter what the rationale may be.
Quality routings are not predictable -- too often courses that are one way out and one way back fail to rise above the level of mediocrity. Please make note I am not suggesting that such courses like TOC fall because of this since a nmber of unique differentiations are part of the existing routing there.
No doubt there are constraints to a given site and the final routing will likely have to pay heed to what it had work with when the course was built. However -- just because of these limitations it does not mean to say that such courses are then held in the same awe / reverence as those with better parcels of land and which the architect has been able to create a routing that take you into a variety of settings / shots / directions / holes, etc, etc. ;)
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The original "back and forth" routing were done because people at that time didn't know you could go in another direction.
Like Neil, I can't believe i just read that. What was the problem? Did they wear blinkers like an easily spooked/wild thoroughbred? Did they remove blinkers to reveal peripheral vision, realizing, much to their surprise that there was land to their left and right?
I'm sorry Matt, this just doesn't make sense.
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Hey Jim:
Sorry, I can't post any right now. However, I believe there is a link earlier in this thread that gives you some idea of the property and the holes.
It's a truly fascinating differentiation between the urban edginess of Jersey City within easy reach and the Irish motif golf course setting created by Eric Bergstol.
I'm looking forward to playing it sometime next year.
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Neil Crafter has this pegged. Deal for example could not be laid out much differently that it already is (a very similar routing like TOC with a loop at the end) because of the narrow nature of the linksland.. If you were to go across the Deal to Sandwich road ajacent to the 12th tee (where the linksland peters out) you'd be on downright farmland.. Routing really depends on the parcel of land.. You go next door to Sandwich and the dunes allowed a circular type routing although by the fame Suez hole, the linkland starts to get much flatter and peters out.
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Jim, if you want to see some pics of Bayonne Golf Club there was a article in the MetGolfer a couple of weeks ago. Pretty nice pics. Just visited the golf course on Friday. Great layout and some interesting green contours.
Chris
http://www.mgagolf.org/
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Jim:
Appreciate the comments -- I plan on playing Bayonne very shortly and will then examine if my "walking" comments on the par-3's was accurate.
Just a quick question -- is the driving area sufficiently wide enough to handle the heavy winds that can easily blow through the site?
Thanks ...
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Given the prevailing wind do you think #17 would play fairer if it was a par-5 instead of a long par-4 ?
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Jin Kim got a steal of a deal at Bayonne. No way Liberty National is 3 times better than Bayonne (if you measure by membership deposit amount... ;)).
Actually a reverse relationship could be true.
The only thing I see bad about Bayonne is the approach by car, via the back industrial road by the Stop and Shop. Ugly, to say the least. Is there another car approach?
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Jim:
Since you have played Bayonne -- can you possibly provide a Doak ratings scale # to the course?
How do you view Bayonne GC with the other Jersey courses you have played. Please -- if at all possible -- be as clear as possible if you believe "X" course is better than "Y" course.
Thanks ...
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Sounds great, Jin. I think I see the wildly undulating ground in the background of the driving range picture.
I see at least three posts here where Jin's name was incorrectly spelled as Jim.
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Jim:
C'mon -- how bout being a bit daring and stepping out on a limb with a Doak rating assessment of Bayonne ?
I'd be happy to get Tom's take but I'd much prefer to read yours because you do say it's better than Twisted Dune Whistling Straits. That's certainly saying something.
One other thing -- if you do think highly of Bayonne how would you stack it up against other Jersey courses you have played?
Thanks ...
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Matt,
As previously mentioned, his name is Jin not Jim.
Geoff
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Good timing for this thread, as I have a big review of Bayonne GC in this week's Golfweek. Place is amazing, flaws and all.