Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: David Ober on October 23, 2005, 07:04:27 PM
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Setting up a golf trip, and would like some opinions from the group on great layouts within an hour's drive of Phoenix. I've never played golf in Arizona, so I'm going to rely on you guys completely. Don't let me down... ;)
A quick addendum: All of us that will be going on the trip are scratch or below-scratch golfers -- if that matters.
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David -
If you don't mind i'll piggyback on your thread. we have 8 heading there mid November. Set up right now to play -
Gold Canyon Dinosaur Cost $80.00 est.
Las Sendas $80.00 replay 25.00 est.
Raven at Verrado cost $90.00
Apache Stronghold $45.00 replay $10.00
Comments/ suggestions appreciated
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I don't have a lot of experience golfing in the area, but I definitely recommend We-Ko-Pa.
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On the public side, take a look at C&C's Talking Stick North profiled here with good pics and it is not lined with houses as it's on Indian land as is WeKoPa, both of which are good choices. Longbow in Mesa is a good reasonable cost option. The Wigwam Gold,a RTJ classic, has been recently restored by GCA'er Forrest Richardson and is reopening soon. Another classic course recently restored by Richardson is Bell's Biltmore Adobe. If you like a lot of bunkers, the Faldo course at Desert Ridge is a good choice.I've always liked Legend Trail in North Scottsdale. Of course, if you want to tell your friends back home that you've played TPC Scottsdale, Grayhawk or Troon North, go right ahead
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Mike
Apache Stronghold replay at $10?!
Wow that has got to be one of the great deals in golf.
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Having lived in PHX for a while the courses I would play if I could only play ten are.
Talking Stick North
Apache Stronghold
Troon North Monument
Legend Trails
Papago
Longbow
The Boulders South
The Raven at South Mountain
SunRidge Canyon
These are all courses I've played and enjoyed especially the top two. There are so many quality courses in the Metro Phx Area I think one could play a different one every day for a month and find that he had a really good time.
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Ten best, regardless of $$$ or access, that I can vouch for (haven't played We-Ko-Pa), w/i hour of Scottsdale/Phoenix:
Desert Forest
Whisper Rock-Lower
The Rim
Estancia
Troon North-Monument
Desert Mountain-Geronimo
Talking Stick-North
Quintero
GC Scottsdale
Troon G&CC
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I will not argue with the grant master Brad. I will 2nd Desert Forest and the Rim Club. Both really stood out above the rest of those in the area I played. Talking Stick North was very good as well. However it did not blow me away like the other two.
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David O:
The key element in any overall ratings is the access issue. If you don't have access to private clubs you are going to find a good number of the other golf options in the Phoenix area are somewhat limited.
For example, people have mentioned Apache Stronghold in Globe -- it's more than 60 minutes away unless you have the highway patrol escorting you there. And, given the uneven conditions there I would not want to recommend it without some reservation. AS is a "what if" type course -- "if" all the necessary work were done the qualities of the design speaks for itself. In my three visits to the facility that has not happened thus far.
My overall list would be as follows ...
Whisper Rock / Lower
Desert Forest
Desert Mtn (Geronimo) *sadly Lyle Anderson changed #13 & 14 holes from the original design. The par-3 18th is a grand touch!
Desert Mtn (Outlaw)
Desert Mtn (Chirichua)
Silverleaf *solid Weiskopf design that gets little attention
Chapparal Pines (Payson) *may be just outside 60 minutes from Phoenix
I also liked The Estancia -- when it's not overwatered as is usually the case. Troon is also a nicely done Tom Weiskopf layout.
On the public side you should enjoy ...
We-Ko-Pa / be very interested to see the upcoming 18 by C&C there
Troon North / Monument
Raven GC at Verrado
There may be one or two others I can add here
Avoid at all costs ...
TPC Scottsdale *extremely hyped because of the tournament -- the 17th and 18th holes are the only memorable ones in my mind.
The Boulders * same as above, "lite" on the golf design front. You pay for the world class service, food, etc, etc -- the golf is simply just another offered acitivity there.
Keep in mind The Rim is also in Payson and right across the street from Chapparal Pines. The Rim is a classic textbook example of "eye candy" to the max -- the more complete shot values are across the street with the Panks / Graham design IMHO.
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I've only played a few courses in the area during a couple of trips out there, but my favorite was Gold Canyon-Dinosaur Mountain. Its somewhat of a drive depending on where you're staying, but its an incredibly beautiful place...especially the first five holes.
Las Sendas in Mesa is also very good. Estrella Mountain Ranch didn't really do much for me and I don't remember it very well. TPC Scottsdale-Desert was kind of fun but not especially great golf.
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For me cost is always a major factor in AZ, so I tend to try and find lower priced courses rather than pay top dollar. As a general rule, you save money by going somewhere other than Scottsdale/Paradise Valley or by going to courses on Indian reservations.
Here are some recommendations for courses if you do not want to pay top dollar:
1. Estrella Mountain Ranch - beautiful setting, wide fairways, SW of town. Probably about $50-$100 cheaper than top Troon run courses.
2. Vistal (formerly Thunderbird) - close to downtown, good on a getaway day because it is also pretty close to the airport. Course is crammed into a pretty tight space but I enjoyed it.
3. Papago - great old muni, a bit rundown and very crowded so access may be an issue.
4. Whirlwind - Devil's Claw and Cattail - south of town. I've only played Devil's Claw but enjoyed it. Drawback is that it is near a racetrack so there can be a lot of background noise.
Other courses I would think about along this approach but have not played - We-Po-Ka, Talking Stick North and Apache Stronghold.
I do not like the ASU Karsten course but have only played it once from the white tees (6100 yards). The next set back is 7000 yards and I would play it from there if I tried it again.
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Any comments on Eagle Mountain?
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David-- All these comments are good, and the same "rules of thumb" that apply to Palm Springs apply to Phoenix (best courses are private but you will never get a group on during the season)--
That being said, there is a facility in the area that is not bad for accomadations--Resort Suites of Scottsdale, that gives special attention to golf groups and has special rates on some of the courses mentioned-- I've used them for groups of 4-12 and they do seem to have some access pull on the public and resort courses--
They have good info on course conditions and can work on rates for you.
There website is Resort Suites (you probably know who I am since I am the Chairman of the SCGA Rules and Comp Committee and I officiate at the SCGA/USGA events, some of which you play in).
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Any Irish or Buckeye fans heading to Tempe for good football and warmer weather?
I'll be looking to get a round or two in, but my travelling companions have better things to do with the nice weather than golf. I hope I don't have to take in 18 by myself.
I'll be in town from the 30th to the 4th, I'd love to hear from anyone (especially OSU guys looking for a friendly rivalry) who'd be up for a round.
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We have two couples there next week for four nights, playing both Talking Stick courses and We-ko-pa. I've only played TSN of the three so looking foward to seeing something new, at least to me.
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I loved Talking Stick North!
Mirabel was definitely worth the walk.
JWK
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Any comments on Eagle Mountain?
Bill,
I've not played Eagle Mountain but my sources say it's not up to par with Sunridge Canyon across the street, which I have played and like quite a lot.
TSN is a staple for me when I visit Scottsdale. I think Talking Stick South is a sleeper that doesn't get much notice. It's a traditional layout that I found more difficult than TSN. Very interesting from a GCA standpoint to see how Coore/Crenshaw could make such very different courses out of flat, barren desert. Would like to hear your comments after you play it.
Best,
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Thinking outside the usual "box"
TPC Scottsdale Desert, not the stadium is cheap, brown and walkable-carryable - a rarity in them there parts. Great value. As the "city " course for Scottsdale it's really a lot less money than the others and has some realy good holes.
I also think that the South at Talking Stick is just about as good as the North but without the visuals; many here will disagree, decide for yourself. Test yourself and see what you really know about architecture and strategy. Play both on the same day.
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I'll second Redanman's call on TPC Desert. Played last Fri for $38 (twi-light no problem finishing) while it's big bro across the stree wanted $230!! It is really a fine course. Low on the wow factor/eye candy, but a fair test of golf.
I mentioned this before, but they are moving dirt at WeKoPa on the C&C and will defienetly look there on my next trip to the desert.
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JWK - Any more thoughts/details on Mirabel? I've heard a few very good reviews on the place.
Has Matt Ward or Conmtgolf played there?
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John F:
Mirabel is a worthy membership oriented place and is well done by team Fazio. It's just not memorable in comparable terms with say next-door-neighbor Outlaw or the elite top tier private layouts that occupy the broader Valley of the Sun area IMHO.
The front nine is fairly straightforward but far from unique. That's not to say the layout is dog food because it's far from that.
The back nine is where the better holes exist. The par-410th at 450 yards is well done with H20 on the left side.
If memory serves, the par-3 11th at 178 yards is even better with a rock face right side that needs to be cleared. The 12th at 390 yards is also well done as it forces you to deal with a barranca that cuts in on both on the tee shot and approach.
Mirabel is not really being a bad layout but it fails to rise beyond the clutter that exists in the greater Scottsdale area.
If someone were to play Mirabel and then say make a quick visit to Silverleaf -- Weiskopf's layout -- I think they would see immense differences and much of that is tied to the details that Weiskopf has provided in addition to having the better site.
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Matt,
Does Mirabel suffer from not having the elevation changes that Silverleaf & Desert Mountain have?
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John -
I played Mirabel as a guest last January during the FBR week. I really liked the layout/routing, and I got to experience it by walking with caddies which is uncommon in the PHX area. The course had very fast greens, and it was in pristine condition.
Many of the holes on the first nine were uphill, and long-into the-wind par 4's. The second nine, while utilizing some terrain changes that benched some green & tee sites, had a more varied feel. The location near Desert Highlands presented some beautiful vistas. I found the golf course is quite a challenge for a single handicapper from the tips.
The amenities topped the quality of the golf course! Water every, buckets of apples every 3rd hole, a hibachi barbeque on a par 3 on the first nine and the best beef jerky that I have ever tasted at the comfort stations that were located at #5 and #14. Lemon scented hot towels refreshed our faces beside the 18th green. I am not usually one to worry or make a fuss over these types of things, but Mirabel was bowled me over.
I hope to be invited back.
JWK
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JWK
I have played and enjoyed Mirabel twice. You forgot to mention the ProV1s on the range. ;D
I mentioned the beef jerky and the chocolate chip cookies on another thread.
Steve
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John --
No -- there is some land movement -- nothing severe mind you. It's just that team Fazio followed the same script with flanking bunkers that look nice and at times play a meaningful role.
The course is not short with some of the longer par-4's playing into the prevailing wind and also slightly uphill.
The greens are also nicely done but nothing that stands out in an exceptional way in terms of green size / contours / challenges, etc, etc.
In sum -- Mirabel is a well done development by Discovery Land -- the same people who brought forward Estancia. You get all the amenities in a big time way. On the architectural side it gets a "C+" for being straightforward and well prepared. It's just that the term exceptional design is not present when compared to the likes of Silverleaf and three of the layouts I like at DM (Chirichua, Geronimo, Outlaw).
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Bill,
If you can drive 35 minutes west of airport, try Raven at Verado.
Great layout, good service and best of all
only $99.00 per person which includes two meals and all day golf. I have played there 3 times and got in 36 each time.
We make it a must play on our trips to Phoenix, even though it is a 75 minute drive from our house.
Thanks,
JD :)
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Jim -
Agreed on the Raven. Best to play before catching the 4pm flight back east.
JWK
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I second Raven at Verrado. Good course, good conditions and the meals included in the fee is a good idea given the distance from the Scottsdale resort area.
Another course to consider in the West Valley is the newly renovated RTJ classic- Wigwam Gold. I played there recently and was very impressed with Forrest Richardson's work.
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Here are some public access ideas, including some of ours:
Encanto — City of Phoenix's oldest municipal; not in great condition, but right downtown. There not a lot to it, but it has potential. I always enjoy it because it feels like something old.
Legend Trail — One of the most graceful desert layouts, in my opinion.
Lookout Mountain — Quirky and tight. Some holes through development, but a few head-scratching holes that you will never see anywhere. Almost always in good condition.
Ventana Canyon — Mountain Cse (Tucson...slightly more than 1-hour) — One of my favorite Arizona courses (desert region)
Phantom Horse — Even more quirky than Lookout (sorry). Please ignore Holes 1 and 18. Not mine.
McCormick Ranch — Desmond Muirhead. A product of the 70s, and looks the part. One day it will be famous. Play it now.
Talking Stick — Well worth the time. Especially the North.
Coldwater — A development course we carved out of a cotton field. Does not look like a cotton field. Fun and cheap.
Red Mountain — Now private, but someone told me that public play is still offered (?). It is the best Dye work in Phoenix. Some really tight holes and housing too close, but a few holes at Pasatiempo have the same problem, so I forgive it.
A few mentioned Papago — We have been there preparing a restoration plan. It is in quite decent shape compared to years past.
The Wigwam is "back" — I am sure Mr. Allen would extend a courtesy to a GCA visitor. It can be difficult to get a tee time this time of year.
Biltmore Adobe Course — Short and fun and old and stately. Most of Bell Sr. was omitted by years of crazy resort managers and thousands of trees — and water. However, we brought back many old bunkers and created 3 new holes which had to be adjusted due to changes in the land use/ownership. The new holes drew from Bell Sr. and his work.
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Legend Trail-One of the best Rees Jones courses I've played
Talking Stick-Not big on the "wow factor" but the flat-site subtleties
worked by C & C worth a play for sure
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Craig
Legend Trail is more than Rees Jones course. From Ron Whitten's review at golfdigest.com:
"As I understand it, the project has changed hands at least three times. It started as Desert Ranch, with a routing by Tulsa's Randy Heckenkemper, who was going to make it his breakthrough desert design. But then another company took over, and Heckenkemper was out. (He'd eventually make his Scottsdale debut with The Sanctuary at WestWorld in 1999).
The new owners hired a couple of veteran Arizona architects, Forrest Richardson and his mentor Jack Snyder. They rerouted 10 holes to accommodate more housing development, expanded the proposed turf areas, then saw the project through permitting and into construction. But about the time half the holes had been cleared, the project was sold again. The new owners (which included veteran club professional Al Mengert) wanted a marquee name. Mengert suggested his friend Rees Jones. Snyder said they'd be comfortable working with him, and they did, until one day Richardson was asked not to show up anymore. He did anyway, on weekends, to check of the work of the sub-contractors that he and Snyder were paying as part of their contract. Jones stuck to the routing plan, but used his shapers to create greens and bunkers of his preference. "
Steve
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More from Ron Whitten's review:
"When Legend Trail opened, Snyder told reporters it was a design by him and Forrest Richardson, with collaboration by Rees Jones. But all the club's advertisements and promotional materials touted only Rees.
"We never get any credit," said Richardson recently. "Even though it's our routing, our grading, our site work, our irrigation design, our engineering. There are holes we fought for, like No. 11, where we begged to save a rock outcropping that splits the fairway and created a risk-reward situation." (The par-4 11th is the best gambling hole on the course.)"
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Forrest,
It's been a while since I played Legend Trail, but I remember the 11th. I seem to remember a sliver of turf left of the large center hazard. It didn't seem likely that anyone would ever play in that direction. Was that to be an option? Do you see playing left off the tee as an option?
Am I remembering the hole correctly :)
Don
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There are two reasons that playing left at No. 11 has been diminished:
1) The trees are overgrown
2) A fourth tee was never built just forward of what is now the "main" tee. The problem with the "main" tee as it is usually played currently rests with the fact that the carry to the left is 200+ yards...and that is simply not workable for most.
I have recommended that the left be opened and the originally planned tee be constructed.
The area to the left, is actually quite wide as it nears the green. It looks narrow (and is at the front), which it should!
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Steve-
Interesting situation at Legend Trail. There is a course a few miles from me in West Chester, PA called Tattersall, that also carries the Rees Jones attribution. If I remember correctly, he did not carry out all of the work with the project, which would probably Doak-scale at about a 3+.
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On the east side of town try Gold Canyon. best views and desert mountain golf to boot
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For "traditional" golf in the Arizona here's a sample. Keep in mind that great in AZ is good in Mass, Jersey, MN, etc.
Phoenix CC (private)
Paradise Valley (private, fun greens, deep bunkering, interesting routing, BEAUTIFUL clubhouse)
Papago (public, great skins game on Monday, if they could get the greens to a 10.5 it would be make it that much better)
Encato Park (public, see Forrests comments, played there twice and both times the greens were running fast and true which was kind of surprising, great for the ego ;D)
Moon Valley CC (private, after mAnnika shot a 59 they made the greens CRAZY, especially 17 and 18)
Pinnacle Peak CC (it's OK)
Desert courses worth a look:
Legend Trail (public, fun routing, favorite Reese course to date)
TPC Desert (public, cheap, walkable)
Desert Mountain (private... As far as I'm concerned, Desert/target golf doesn't get any better than Chiricahua and Geronimo. Outlaw is a shot-makers course, especially with the shaved dormant around the greens. played yesterday. Bring your A game ;D)
Two clubs have really impressed me as of late:
Silverleaf and Golf Club at Scottsdale (if you can play both or either, do it. For the desert, they are solid)
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Forrest
Are you consulting with new owners on possible changes at Legend Trail?
Steve
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Steve:
Good call on mentioning The Raven at Verrado -- well done layout by Fought / Lehman and frankly it gets little attention because it's not in the core Scottsdale area.
Craig R:
You are being overly generous if you think Tattersall merits a "3" on the Doak scale. In my mind, it's a serious candidate for the worst Rees Jones course I have ever played.
The driving range alone can give you a serious case of vertigo!
Let's also not forget the theory behind the 2nd hole if one can even say such a thing.
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Steve — No, not officially. I visited the new greenkeeper and know the owners. I have made myself available to weigh in on anything they wish to accomplish. Right now they vare focusing on irrigation issues. When I was there this summer it was in good shape.
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I just got back from a few days in Phoenix (part work, part not-work). Since my parents live on the west side, I have played a bit more over there in the past couple of years than in the East Valley. While there aren't as many courses on the west side, there are some pretty good ones and there might be some better values.
I do like the Raven at Verrado (I played there this summer). There are some good holes out there. They do pump their all-day pricing, but if you call the shop, you can sometimes get just an 18-hole rate.
I played at Forrest's remake of Wigwam Gold on Tuesday of this week and like it. It's a classic golf course and you really don't feel like you're in AZ (something I like quite a bit). I never played the Wigwam previously, so I can't compare it to the condition it was in previously. I booked a tee time a couple of days before through golf602.com and played for $45. An added bonus is that they'll let you walk as well (no price break, but it's nice for a Minnesota guy to get a walk in this time of the year).
For anybody on here who served in the military, you should certainly play Falcon Dunes, the course at Luke AFB on the west side. It's a pretty nice Greg Nash course with some good holes and it's another place where you can walk.
I haven't played Coldwater, but I may at Christmas.
By the way, golf602.com has some pretty good deals. There aren't a ton of the real big name courses on there, but there are some pretty good spots to play. (no, I have no affiliation to the site, just trying to save my fellow treehousers a few bucks).
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I can't tell you what the 10 best courses are but I'll share what I think are the 10 best that I have played.
In no partticular order...
Talking Stick (North) - C&C
Talking Stick (South) - C&C
Southern Dunes - Schmidt & Curley
Papago - William F. Bell
Encanto - William P. Bell
Desert Highlands - Nicklaus
Anthem (Ironwood) - Greg Nash
Raven (South Mountain) - Gary Panks
Legend Trail - Rees Jones
Mirabel - Tom Fazio
I haven't played Apache Stronghold, most of the Desert Highlands courses, Phoenix CC, Arizona CC, Wigwam, Whisper Rock, and many more exclusive and resort courses.
Of the ones I have played those would be my favorite 10 right now.
Jeff F.