Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Michael Dugger on December 06, 2002, 10:12:31 AM
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So I know it has been discussed and rediscussed and rehashed and so on until the cows come home...but what is the current situation here? I've read that some of you have already played the course. Is that all 18 holes? Is it done, is it grown in, is it open? Where are the pictures? What's is the deal? Is it instantly a top 15 in the U.S.? We don't hear much out here in Oregon. I'm getting impatient...I want my Friar's Head!
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Kind of wondering the same thing. I was hoping to get a sneek peak at it as well. It sounds like the second coming of Sand Hills.
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Last I heard, they had a problem in court as they did not define the exact number of houses to be developed. Thus the course is there, some people have played but the legal status puts them in a position where less said the better right now. Reality is that Ken Bakst made some serious mistakes from a development standpoint (not golfing) with the local politics which is surprising as his partners the landowners are well respected in the area.
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Ok, nuff said. Interesting how hot all this is. I even got a private anonymous post from someone who explained how 'sticky' this situation has become.
Nevertheless, housing issues aside, environmental issues aside...all I care about is the stinkin' golf course. Are we to fear that it is going to be dug up??? I mean really now. I'm no undercover private investigator here.
So, what's it like? Comparisons? Great views, sandy scrub areas. Is it a top 10 in the U.S.? Top 20? Does it remind you of Cypress...Pine Valley...
Signiture holes, yardage, unique aspects???
Anyone, anything??
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Are we to fear that it is going to be dug up??? I mean really now. I'm no undercover private investigator here.
Yes, that is exactly what could happen !!!
http://query.nytimes.com/search/full-page?res=9E0CE6DC1E3DF933A15753C1A9649C8B63
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Before this thread gets too far from away from the facts :) I would like to offer the following points of clarification.
A request for relief, which included a request to force the town to restore the property to its pre-developed state, was in fact made by the complaining parties to the same Appellate Division panel of judges that originally overturned our zoning action. That request for relief was denied. As such, I am highly confident that Friar’s Head is not going to be dug up anytime soon! :)
In the meantime, we are not able to “open” until we resolve our zoning issue through a supplemental administrative proceeding in the town. People have, however, played the golf course (which is not yet fully grown-in) as our private guests and that is now a fairly well known fact. A number of them have commented in the past, so I’m not sure why people believe that there is some kind of “code of silence” in effect at this time, other than perhaps out of respect for our circumstances. So those of you that have played or seen the golf course should feel free to comment, or not comment, about Friar’s Head as you please.
With respect to the original permitting, Tom Paul is both right and wrong. Our original focus was to build a great golf course and housing wasn’t even on our radar screen. So left on my own, I would have studied the impacts from only the golf course. But counsel properly advised us that the DEC, which administers the NYS Environmental Quality Review Act, requires that you study the maximum impacts of a phase of a project which is uncertain with respect to either its design and/or timing, so that’s exactly what we did with respect to the “potential” housing. Unfortunately, the appellate division court said that the town didn’t study the environmental impacts of any housing, so all of the maximum impact studies that were included in our environmental impact statement with respect to “potential” housing (i.e., traffic, school impacts, woodland/farmland impacts, etc.), and which were relied upon by the lower court in affirming our permits, don’t exist at all? You can say they aren’t there, but that doesn’t make it so!
Now if Guest believes that I made serious mistakes in the permitting process, he/she is certainly entitled to that opinion. And who am I, under the circumstances, to say he/she is wrong. :) But at this point, it doesn’t really matter whether I made mistakes or not because my belief that we did a proper environmental review is not going to fix the problem! Sometimes life just isn’t fair, just as golf shouldn’t always be fair, so you have to just get on with it. And that’s exactly what I am doing!
Have fun!
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Ken Bakst,
It didn't surprise me that TEPaul was wrong..... again ;D
And, it didn't surprise me that you wanted to keep this thread confined to the FACTS. ;D
I haven't posted much regarding Friar's Head because I was concerned that to do so might be creating a highly visible profile that might not be in the Club's best interest.
But, since you've given the green light to everyone,
I'll make some general comments without getting into a detailed analysis.
My initial impression is that Friar's Head is the type of golf club that every golfer would like to belong to.
It is the type of golf course that you could play every day and never tire of it. It offers challenge, yet is fun to play.
It offers diversity, simplicity and quiet elegance. And, it possesses one of the most desireable elements in golf.
THE WIND, along with a beautiful setting
The extensive practice facility and par 3 course compliment and enhance the aura that permeates the property.
In addition, Friar's Head offers a culture long extinct in American golf, a return to a purer version of golf and tradition.
It represents a special fusion which combines the best in golf course architecture, a spectacular setting and a golfing culture unique to modern times.
It's a gift to golf and will hopefully inspire others to follow suit.
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Pat Mucci:
When you are right, you're right! I couldn't have said it any better.
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Tom Paul
You might want to delete that post too, because it’s not right either. :)
There is only one environmental impact statement, which goes through a review, comment and revision process until the Town accepts it. So the court didn’t say that the town didn’t do the max housing study because it doesn’t get credit for what the developer did. The court just said that the Town studied only the golf, which means that our max housing study does not exist at all. The court didn’t say that the max housing study wasn’t done properly, it just refused to acknowledge that it existed at all. I don’t have to understand the judgment, and probably never will, but I have to live with it. It’s the way of the world!
Now if you keep referring to AmPer as AmBer, I might just figure out a way to get in the proverbial “bed” with her….er, I mean him! :)
Guest
You are right about the Talmages. The are very civic minded and highly respected in the local community. But we never had a problem with the local political process. Every single vote on our project was a unanimous 5-0. And the lower court, which resides in our county, upheld the Town’s decision. It wasn’t until we were dragged into the Appellate Court, which resides outside of our county, that we had a problem.
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Ken Bakst,
If you keep telling TEPaul that he's wrong time after time,
and I know how easy that is, he's going to eventually accuse you of BIAS. ;D
I know, I've experienced it myself.
On a serious note, is there a remedial solution ?
Can the study you prepared on the max housing impact be reviewed by the town, concurrently, with the ongoing lawsuit?
Wouldn't that create recognition by the court or courts of the existance of the study, and the towns review of same ?
Would the ceding of development rights (housing) to the state eleviate or eliminate the plaintiffs argument ?
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Let's see some pics!
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TEPaul,
A similar transaction just occured down the beach from Friar's Head, and ceding land or land use rights to a bona fide agency including the State of NY, will qualify the transaction for federal estate tax purposes.
I wasn't aware that Ken has had any problems with the State of NY.
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A couple of friends of mine whose opinions I greatly respect have been out to play Friar's Head.
When I asked them about the golf course, they mostly just smiled happily. ;D
That told me all I need to know. No followup questions were necessary or appropriate. ;)
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So those of you that have played or seen the golf course should feel free to comment, or not comment, about Friar’s Head as you please.
I had the opportunity to play it and promised my member friends not to say anything until it was OK. With Kennys quote I'll be the first to say Friars Head is "World Class". IMHO its destined to be a Top 50 golf course and probably will be higher.
As most of you know its a Coore-Crenshaw course and having played Sand Hills for the first time just 2 months before playing Friars Head the similarities are remarkable. Thus for people looking for some type of benchmark, I would say its Sand Hills on a waterfront setting. Throw in the first 5 holes at Spyglass and a few of the dunes holes at Cypress Point and you have Friars Head. I mention these other courses because Friars Head has 3 and maybe 4 different types of terrain, holes in sand dunes, in the woods, along the water, and what was formally a potato field which not the most visually spectacular among the most difficult.
I'll let others post some pictures and maybe their favorite hole. Its like NGLA and/or Sand Hills in that any of the 18 holes could be your favorite.
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TEPaul,
You are correct, they are autonomous.
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One of the best i have ever played!!!!! It has it all . Kenny did a great job in getting Coore & Crenshaw . Everybody that plays will enjoy it !!!!!!!
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As Pat says, the wind is a huge factor at FH. It makes the course play different everyday. The course requires decisions regarding strategy hole after hole and shot after shot. There are even a couple of greens with choices of direction and speed for the same putt. It has a great short par 4 which you can use anything from a 7 iron to a driver and a par 3 that looks like it was transported from Lahinch. It is not the longest course in the world, yet you can hit driver on every par 4 and par 5. It is very playable for high handicappers yet the greens inside greens provide quite a challenge for the low handicapper. Finally, the course is great fun to play and puts a smile on your face. :)
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Who do you need to know to get a tee time? Sounds unbelievable!
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Since Mr. Bakst has opened this topic up for discussion, let me tell you 4 reasons I think this is and will be a special place, and one that anybody inerested in GCA will want to play and study. I have only "walked" the course, a little over a year ago, but here is what I remember.
1. It is a golf course and facility built by and for golfers. That may seem a simplistic statement, but it is not. Think about it.
2. The routing maximizes golf, often to the detriment of "eye candy." While much of the property fronts Long Island Sound, you have to strain to see it, even on the holes relatively near to the shore. The dunesland holes are more reminiscent of the inland holes at Cypress Point than the "ocean" holes at Bandon and Pacific Dunes. The inland holes, built over the one time potato fields, are more reminiscent of Scottish linkland than are any of the holes at this course's more ancient and illustrious neighbours.
3. Detail. The devil is in the detail, and because of the skill and passion of the developers and architects, this course will never induce boredom. So many little rolls and hollows have been preserved/created that even on a bad day, you will still have fun playing this course, and on a good day, you will always have to keep up your guard.
4. Quirk. The "Lahinch/Dell" hole was designed (hope it is still that way) so that the "Championship" tee was 40 yards shorter than the day-to-day tee, well off to the right, and played to a nearly hidden "green within green" that would make it harder to play at 140 yards than from the "back" markers and a "normal" pin position. Can't wait to see the faces of the low handicap players/pros as they walk forward to play the "back" tees.
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Awesome, flat awesome. Thanks to everyone who chimed in here...I haven't been as excited to see a new course since Pacific. The Dell/Lahinch hole sounds outstanding. Part Cypress, Part Spyglass, part Sand Hills, waterfront, potato fields...it is a good time to be a fan of golf course architecture!
can't wait to see the pics!!
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it is unfair to call this a "waterfront" course! Long Island sound can barely be seen on one hole. I'd call it more a "bluffs" course which utilizes treed bluff dunes for half of its holes to much delight. What the close proximity to the sound does however is cause windy conditions every afternoon. One thing nobody has mentioned is that there are no yardage markers of any kind and that the scorecard HAS NO YARDAGE listed for individual holes. The course played this year as mandatory walking but that may change when the course is officailly opened in the future. Lance
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Back to the original request, there are some FH pictures on C&C's design site.
http://www.bencrenshaw.com/
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true dat, but is it the same one that's been there forever??? I want new, I want every hole.
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ah yes, it is the same few. Must be careful in here, others, that will go unmentioned, will bite of your head for being redundant.
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My round at Friars Head in the fall was one of the most enjoyable golf experiences I've ever had. The course is spectacular and a lot of fun to play. The greens are creatively sloped and contoured making local knowlege a must to score well, but there is nothing overly tricky at the same time.
My favorie hole is the uphill par 5, 14th. The sand dune behind the green makes for an intimidating backdrop. I love how the green extends back and right into crook between the dunes. It takes a very heroic shot to get the ball all the way back there.
One could spend a day just at the driving range and on the putting green. They are very well designed. One could concievably practice any shot there (but it is much more fun to play them on the course).
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I've been following the feedback coming in on play at Friar's and it sure sounds to me like a consensus of a bases loaded homerun!
So what do we do now--wait for Golf Digest's raters to get there eventually and tell us they've discovered a great new course on Long Island's East End?
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Mr. Paul, that is if they get it, which given their track record is 50-50 at best.
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TEPaul:
The quality of superior courses does not need the good housekeeping seal of approval from GD. What amazes me is what "guest" mentions in his post. A number of superior courses were bypassd -- the most notable being the first rate effort by Mike DeVries at The Kingsley Club in Michigan. I will also add that I am dumbfounded that The Bridge was also not included.
The qualities of Friar's Head are well spoken for by the people on GCA and that says plenty to me.
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I did course ratings for Golf Digest for 17 years. I am now assisting Golf Magazine with its Top 100 You can Play. As a member of both the Golf Writer's Association of America and Met Golf Writer's Assoc I also do reviews and ratings for other publications -- most notably, The Jersey Golfer, a publication I have served as editor-in-chief since its inception in 1990.