Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: RDecker on December 10, 2002, 03:45:46 PM
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I know this topic has been covered to a great degree by this website but I thought I might share the details of my experience while I am still enjoying the euphoria of sawdust and tree limbs surrounding my tees and greens. My 1927 Donald Ross course was suffering from the very same Tree related issues that most of the classical era courses in the Northeast(Western Mass. in my case) and the United States for that matter are; Too many maturing around crucial playing surfaces that weren't properly maintained in the past. When I came on board at my club in late spring of this year I started to plant the kernel of an idea, the turf quality at this course is suffering and it has more to do with the trees than any other factor. The club was in the beginning stages of installing tee to green irrigation and was feeling that the water would fix all the problems. I told them the water was only part of the equation and that something should be done about starting a "Tree Management" program sooner than later. The Club had set up a walk through with the U.S.G.A. agronomist before hiring me and when he walked the course with myself and several club officials he corraborated my view of the tree situation within minutes of being on the property. This helped get the wheels turning but the next step was alittle bit of good fortune and helped seal the deal. I contacted Brad Klein and asked if he was ever in the area if he would stop by and take a look at my course. He happened to be planning a trip up to the Berkshires to go antiqueing with his wife and stopped off and walked the property with my greens chairman and myself and again hammered home the message about tree management and especially removal. Now people were thinking it was a good idea. So next I had my local tree company rep. come and give me a quote on a substantial amount of work (about 10% of our annual budget) and convinced the club to add the cost into the total they were raising from membership to pay for the irrigation project. Lastly while they were considering the proposal I convinced Ron Forse to see the course and when he did so and followed his visit up with a written report emphasizing tree work the deal was done so to speak. What I'm trying to say here I guess is if someone out there is struggling to sell his or her fellow members or employers in my case on the idea of a Tree Management program that involves wholesale removals then my recommendation is to use experts in the area to hammer the concept home and don't be afraid to bring in as many as it takes to get the point across. Now that nearly 30 pines of nearly 100 feet have been removed from one of my par 3's the golfers have been walking out through the snow and seeing an entirely different golf hole, one given them by a master over 75 years ago and they are looking forward to spring more than ever.
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Nice post. How many trees in total have been removed or put on a list for removal?
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Mr. Decker, I like your post, coming from a design background (my father Bill Overdorf) and being on the GPS end of the industry (for supers), I have discovered many integral aspects in maintaining a golf course. I have found that while creating a asbuilt of a course (sq. footage of all features, location and description of all irrigation components, etc.), I can apply the same amount of detail to a tree asbuilt, this allows me to map every tree to include approx. height, girth, and species along with taking a photo. Because of the software I use, I can put on a presentation to any board showing not only the location in reference to a feature but a view from a point that gives a board the ability to see what you are trying to accomplish. When I am done I load the data on the superintendents computer which can be used by him to maintain and manage his golf course. My data is also easily transferable into any irrigation software package also. I end up killing allot of birds with one stone.
So I applaud your ability to get it passed by your board as they have no idea how good the course will be now.
Have a Happy Holiday Season.
Robert
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RDecker,
Well done! Always nice to see a course that has decided to remove trees. I happen to believe trees are one of if not the biggest problem confronting the majority of the classic courses. They lead to so many other problems as most of us know. I get more requests when traveling around the country to comment on recommended tree removal then any other aspect of the design. The problem is, few courses have the guts to carry it out! In many restorations, trees are one of the last things to be addressed.
Mark
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Mark
What's your opinion of Weeping Willows? Pinus strobus?
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Tom,
I don't care for weeping willow trees on the golf course nor do I like pine trees such as the Pinus strobus!
Mark
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Tom:
Weeds! Weeds! Weeds!!!! :-[
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R Decker,
Great job with the trees!
"TREE REMOVAL: FINESSING THE LANDMINE OF CLUB POLITICS:"
This is a heading in my Tree Maintenance/Removal Bible which I distributed at Golfweek's Restoration Conference last month. Portions of this document are located below:
1. Take a Covert Approach with Tree Removal: Too often it is necessary to skirt membership detection and the wrath of those emotionally attached. So don't notify or alert the membership of tree removal plans. The practice of marking a tree for removal with orange paint or a red ribbon is much too conspicuous.
Unless it is an outright specimen, don't bother trimming a tree either. The wound typically leaves an obvious scar to remind all golfers of your sin.
When? The best time to remove trees is when the club is closed or when no one is around. Snow storms present ideal opportunities for tree removal.
If trees are removed in the middle of winter, no one will notice the next spring.
If trees are removed in the dead of night with a high horse power chipper, a tarp, and a sod crew, (like Oakmont), no one will likely miss the trees the next day.
How many? How often? Take a conservative, gradual approach. Do not send the membership into a state of shock or panic. Prioritize and start removing slowly. By the time memberships start noticing the tree loss, they are endorsing a program they never would have honoured up front. With tree removal, a methodical approach builds consensus.
If tree removal is necessary, but not urgent, copper nails and chemical treatments are fine choices to promote a slow departure. Ordinarily, memberships don't object to the removal of rotten, brown hardwoods which have mysteriously or inexplicably perished. Golfers will offer good riddance when these trees become unsightly and present liability or safety concerns.
2. A Negotiable Approach with Tree Removal: Club democracies often demand membership approval and consent.
Agronomic Persuasion: Virtually all golfers prefer thriving turf. Because memberships are more concerned with good agronomics than with strategic shot making, it would be good politics to approach tree removal with the emphasis on the ability of growing healthy, green grass. Architectural principals are generally unaccepted as justifications for tree removal. If you try to convince them that the tree was unoriginal, unattractive, unduly penal, or strategically improper, you had better take cover.
Barter and Compromise: Compromises work just as well. Golfers, who are sentimental about trees, ordinarily appreciate flower gardens and other formalized beds adorning the premises. Focus on such arrangements in conspicuous sections around the clubhouse. Thus, if you erect a shrub bed beside the parking lot, you will not appear as ecologically insensitive for logging a few menacing trees on the golf course.
Bring in the Experts: Memberships rely upon expert opinions. But make sure you hire informed experts. Preferably, golf course architects and USGA agronomists can persuade memberships to adopt a tree removal plan. Arborists and horticulturists should not be permitted to take on this endeavor.
Good luck to all!
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One of the standout benefits of the GCA site has been the dissemination of valuable information, experience and tactics regarding removal of unwanted trees. Dunlop's essays have been inspirational.
My home Club suffers major problems with tree encroachment. In the last 6 months I have gained agreement from Committee and members to
*Remove all pine trees (Over 50 years old, safety hazard - total 306 trees)
*Remove all trees inhibiting morning sun from important turfgrass areas such as tees and greens (80 treees)
*Return of all vegetation to that of indigenous (Australian) species (120 trees (mainly cypresses) and many "beautifying" shrubs such as agapanthis).
I suspect the average member has not yet fully interpreted what they have agreed to. We are carefully planning our course of action and are trying to avoid "shock" removal. It is at least comforting for some members to know that others have agreed to the plans! We will have a much better golf course over the next few years and will continue to learn from such valuable GCA postings.
We have taken out about 39 trees in the past 4 months. Plan to be at 112 trees by February. The point about NOT arguing on architectural basis is correct - much better to be on the safety and turfgrass (and indiginous flora/fauna) issues.
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Peter, I hope you are documenting all your good deeds, as they will surely prove to be the pathway that many of us others should be following. It seems to be not so much a case of what good things must be done, but rather what are the pitfalls to be avoided. That said, the issue of trees is never an easy subject to discuss with some people, but there are invariably surprises in whom is really on your side. Sometimes you just have to ask the hard questions. Has there ever been a case where too many trees have been taken down? I doubt it.
Dunlop White
When are you next coming to Melbourne? The sand belt needs you......
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A total of about 30 trees have been removed both by the contractor and myself ( not an insignificant amount on a 9 hole course)which include large white pines and several norway maples and willows both of which I consider noxious weeds on a golf course. I wrote my original post last evening before attending my annual members open meeting and I was pleasantly suprised by the comments from the floor.
Instead of criticism the board and myself recieved some compliments and a few "how many more.." and "where else..."
type questions, on a whole the project has sat quite well with all concerned. The Project was put forward as a "Good start" and hopefully the results this year coming will sell future work better than I or Mr.'s Klein or Forse ever could.
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Even if originally opposed to the idea, any rational golfer who takes in the undeniable benefits of tree removal, will unanimously support an intelligent tree management program.
Dunlop White's done excellent research and writing on the subject. I believe he makes the point above that the best appraoch is from an agronomic perspective.
Poor turf conditions, as at Mr. Decker's course, can almost always be attributed to an over-abundance of trees. Considering most golfers are more concerned about turf quality than architecture, this is the most successful approach to getting those first few trees around greens and trees won. Once those types of trees, causing agronomic difficulties, come down and the benefits are clear, golfers will start asking, "When are we taking more down?" Always.
Furthermore, I think it's also important to stress to a club membership that an intelligent tree management program is not strictly about removal. In theory, selective tree management involves the removal and REPLACEMENT of undesirable and non-native trees. In other words, when you remove junk and clutter, space is opened for native species, properly located and adequately spaced in indigenous arrangements.
Even if you don't intend to do any planting, talk about "selective tree management" when selling a program :)
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I also agree with Mr. Decker's strategy of bringing in as many arbitrary third-party experts as possible -- ie. writers (like Brad), golf architects (like Forse), et.al. These types of people have no agenda in club politics. Thus, their opinions should be taken on face-value.
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Great points everyone!! I love this topic not only because it is a tough one to deal with, but because it can have dramatic consequences on a golf course.
The winter months are a great time to remove trees. Ice storms, disease, ... are all great excuses to take down trees that have outlived their usefulness (if they ever had any to begin with). Furthermore, most members won't remember what was there and what wasn't.
"Lightning", the best name for a chainsaw I've ever heard ;)
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"The three best fungicides on the market are Stihl, Poulan and Husquavarna".
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1. Peter McCleery's column, "Mission Unpopular", in the October Issue of Golf Digest is a good source of information. The link is is below:
http://file:///C:/My%20Documents/Architecture%20Reports/GolfDigest_com%20-%20Mission%20Unpopular_files/trees1.jpg
Other great sources include:
2. "Trees on Golf Courses: Do they Really Belong?" Rough Meditations, page 69, 1997, by Bradley S. Klein, Sleeping Bear Press, Chelsea, Michigan, USA.
3. "Proud, Tree Loving Golf Host Often Out of their Tree", Golfweek, page 46, August 18, 2002 by Bradley S. Klein, Turnstile Publishing Company, Orlando, Florida, USA
4. "Tree logic: If it's in the game's way, take it down", Superintendent News, November 10, 2000, by Bradley S. Klein, Turnstile Publishing Company, Orlando, Florida, USA.
And, I may be able to forward my "Tree Maintenance Plan' distribution to those who are interested.
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One of the best ideas, mentioned above, was to bring in experts and let them help educate our membership.
During the process leading up to a successful passage of Beverly's Master Plan (by 184 to 29 vote!) we brought in Bradley Klein, Ron Whitten, and Ron Prichard, who all gave speeches on not only restoration issues, but on tree plans as well. Bradley gave the best speech in this regard and really blew some people away when he told them that "if a tree needs to be trimmed, it shouldn't be there." ;) :o :)
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Paul Richards,
Congratulations on all of your hard work up at Beverly. Ron Pritchard told me, at the Restoration Conference in Williamsburg, that it was your love and care for the Ross design coupled with your persistence with the membership which hammered the tree issue home.
Thus, it is certainly a team effort.
Experts, such as Brad Klein, and Ron Pritchard, cannot be as effective without an informed member masterminding the entire process. All clubs need informed members behind the wheel.
Way to go!
Dunlop
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Dunlop,
Thanks for mentioning where to get further information.
But where can we get hold of the articles mentioned in points 3 and 4 above? Are they available on the net?
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Dunlop:
Thanks for the kind words! :)
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Further helpful advice -
1. Never refer to the process as "tree removal." It's "tree management" and invariably the club has never had such a plan before.
2. You are not simply addressing issues of turfgrass quality but also of tree quality, esp. saving specimen hardwoods. Mr. Decker forget to mention that in the process of identifying candidate trees for "executive action" we also managed to expose and highlight a magnificent American elm on the left side of his 6th hole which was lost amidst junk trees.
3. Clearing room for air and sunlight also creates opportunities for the turf to dry out, thereby reducing the disease susceptibility of turfgrass and eliminating the need to rely upon herbicides and fungicides. The ecological arguments are all on the side of aggressive tree management.
4. Transplanting modestly or smaller hardwoods into proper places is a good political tactic, esp. early in a tree management program to reassure people and limit their fears. At the same time, it's crucial to avoid giving numbers out when people ask how many are you going to remove. The answer is always "3."
5. Don't be discouraged by early opposition. All tree management plans meet with resistance, and every one I've seen, once begun, begun meets with growing support among members and golfers. There will always be a few recalcitrant holdouts. Don't be discouraged. And at certain point, stop listening to them. They will become a silent minority
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Brad,
Thanks again for your help with the project. The 3 trees you speak of were willows that I took down from in front of the Elm and now the view from the 6 tee is fantastic. Members have been talking about which trees we should take down next year already, Christmas came early in Lee this year!
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A tree that needs to be trimmed, shouldn't be there???
Sorry Brad, but you would not have been welcome at the club that I worked at recently. There is a lot of helpful information in this thread, not counting Dunlop's advice to "skirt membership detection" with a "covert approach", but this tree razing love fest is going overboard. You guys might want to take a step back and take a deep breath and think about some of the things written here. The answer is always "3"? Geez Brad.
Case in point: I worked at club that had two creeks running through it. There is not an abundance of land for the course, so there are tees and greens tucked into shadier places. We were able to keep most of the natural beauty of the creeks by removing some trees and TRIMMING others to allow in air and light. We were delighted at the prospects of keeping a lot of trees and approaching the issues annually instead of turning a parkland course into an open field in one fell swoop.
And we did this without any opposition whatsoever (I guess we are the exception to your rule Brad) and without playig word games ("management" instead of "removal") with our members. Maybe I am missing something here. If so, I apologize. But if Paul misquoted you on the tree trimming Brad, you didn't correct him. And I would ask you guys to step back and reread this thread. It seems to me to be full of disrespect, not only for trees but for the members whose courses you would presumably consult on. There is a compromise in many of these situations. I know. I witnessed it. And our program had the full blessing of the course superintendent. His people did a lot of the work.
Like I said, there is some good stuff here, but some of this stuff about deception and the like is offensive, with all due respect to you guys. I wish everyone here well, but this does not read well.
By the way, what's not to like about White Pine just out of curiosity? ???
Also, are there any trained and licensed horticulturalists posting here, again out of curiosity?
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Dear Mr/Ms Guest,
Perhaps the one course you were (working?) at didn't have a tree problem.
You are right in that we professionals tend to disrespect members who have irrationally planted and protected trees that make it extremely difficult to grow grass as well as thoroughly denigrate superior architecture. But then, we do have our allies, I received an email a couple of years ago from a former president of one of the worlds greatest golf courses suggesting that I remove trees in the winter while my members are away. Perhaps you know better than this quite successful and astute individual.
I tend to think, granted assume, that your experience in the realm of tree problems is limited, maybe due to locale.
White Pines as all conifers are particularly problematic as they block sunlight thoroughly and year round. The fact that they have winter foliage contributes greatly to ice and winter damage issues.
I have the original A.W. Tillinghast plan for Berkshire Hills CC, where I am the superintendent. He clearly shows trees on the property that were in existence as well as those that needed to be planted. There are now, thanks to the state run tree planting programs of years past probably 500-600 more trees than originally outlined. Many of which are noxious weeds that thwart the growth of grass and block tremendous vistas of the Berkshire mountains.
On an environmental note grass is a better filter for groundwater and producer of oxygen than trees.
Regards,
Steve
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Dear "Guest"
if you were so successful at your (former) club why are you so afraid to post your name?
Paul Richards misquoted me. What I said was that if a tree needs to be trimmed, it's easier and better just to cut it down altogether. If it needs trimming, it doesn't belong there.
Since you have not bothered to read beyond this post and haven't seen the essays I (and others) have been writing over the years, you do not appreciate that I emphasize that trees have a place on the golf course, but not in the middle of a golf hole. I'm not about to repeat myself in detail here, other than to affirm that I have written widely that trees have a place on the perimeter of a course, near stream beds, in dense clusters, and proving they are the right species. On clay soils, white pines are a disaster, as they acidify the soil, create winter shade that leads to ice and winter damage, exude bark and other debris, are surface rooters and thus dangerous to both mowers and to golfers. They rapidly decline, usually with diplodia. Deep rooting hardwods are very different and have a better place. Soft wooded trees like willows, birch, swamp maples and sumac are also very problematic.
My basic point is that most people who (literally) embrace trees on golf courses are more interested in trees than golf. That goes for most of those arborists' reports that look to protect trees and don't bother to integrate trees with golf and golf turfgrass
You're obviously more interested in taking cheap shots than making sound arguments or doing your homework.
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Dear Guest,
In addition to the information previously mentioned I think it merits mentioning that the USGA agronomist who consulted has an extensive background in arborcare and the tree company we dealt with had not 1 but 2 certified arborists on my course during the process. In addition to agronomic and and shot value considerations golfer safety and tree health were also considered during the project. Several of the species that had been introduced to the course weren't native and not well suited for the soil conditions... With all these factors in mind we did the work at my course. In consideration of all these factors and the vast experience of Mr. Klein and Mr. Forse if you are still unsure of the validity and motives of "Tree Management" programs then I eagerly await your textbook that will help us all grow healthy turf in shade dominated environments.
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Steve,
Your "assumptions" about my experiences are misguided at best. I have 16 years horticultural experience--all the while a golf nut. The club I mentioned had a definite tree problem, if you consider 8 straight weeks of removal and trimming in phase one alone, and years more to come on top of that.
I am sure that there are current and "former" presidents of clubs that advocate going behind members backs. That sounds disrespectful to me. I guess it is always fine to go behind a memberships' back when it is an issue of tree removal, yes? How about if it is an issue of green renovation? Does the renovation crew just show up one day and the members start playing a temporary green? No questions asked? If a member is told up front when he/she is joining that he/she will not be consulted or given a heads up regarding any future course work, then fine. That would not be going behind their backs though, because they would have been warned to expect anything anytime.
I don't have a problem with tree removal at all (your example of removing misplanted trees is misplaced; you are preaching to the choir). I don't "know better" than the former president you mention. Maybe his former membership thrives off deception.
I also don't have a problem with growing healthy turf; again I am part of that choir. I do find people on this website however who don't believe the turf on a course has to be perfect. :)
I have a problem with an international golf architecture website advocating such a heavy handed approach to tree care. I would just like to see this thread be a bit more well rounded. In addition to the disrespect toward members I believe I am hearing here, I also have trouble with blanket statements like "if a tree needs trimming, it shouldn't be there". I can't imagine you or Brad or Dunlop really believes in such blanket statements. Maybe you do. If not, it would serve those looking in here to read a more thorough accounting of the possibilities in this area. Just my opinion. Again, I wish you all well.
[By the way, conifers are ideally suited to snow. Their close to 90 degree branching structure allows them to take on large amounts of snow that at some point slides off. A trip to the Rockie Mountains this winter will verify that. The major susceptibility problem for evergreens is not snow and ice. It is wind and drought. (DISEASED trees are susceptible to a lot of things.) Yes there are occasional ice storms that create problems but that is not the norm where I live in the Midwest and, in and of itself, should not be used to discount the value of evergreens. A normal Midwest winter does not harm the conifers around here in the slightest. And as for ice storms, it is often the native deciduous species themselves that get hit the hardest. Here in the Midwest, our most recent storms have taken a serious toll on the cottonwoods, ash, boxelder, silver maple, to name a few. Ash have been planted widely as golf course trees due to the fact that they do not surface root as much as many other trees.]
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RDecker,
That all sounds great. I hope it works out. I like you am for healthy turf. You are preaching to the choir also. But you did not address the troubling tone of what is written above.
By the way, there is no need for that passive aggessive "textbook" comment.
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Brad Klein,
I don't think asking for a more well rounded accounting of tree care here is a cheap shot. I appreciate that you have written much on golf. But people looking in here may only be reading what you are writing on this thread. I am glad that you responded in more detail as that will add to the thoroughness of this thread.
As for trimming trees, you say that it is easier to remove them. If it needs trimming it doesn't belong there. That is what I thought Paul wrote. At any rate, do you advocate removing the trees in Amen Corner or trimming them? Would #12 play better if all the trees that have been trimmed over the years had instead been removed? I am sure you agree (I hope :) ) that there are many situations when tree trimming as opposed to tree removal is useful. I just want others here to be able to read that. Is that so wrong?
As for the cheap shots, I am not sure what I said that was unfair. I prefer open discussions with members on course changes. I don't prefer blanket statements. If you show me that I took a cheap shot I will apologize. Maybe the "tree razing love fest" is what you are talking about. I apologize. Otherwise, I am confused. I wished you all well and I said there were some good things on this thread in addition to some troubling things.
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I'll apologize for the snipe but won't apologize for getting upset about the nature of your argument. You make it sound as if superintendents that strive to grow the best turf possible are being selfish. In the golf world I work in Superintendents are getting fired and phased out at clubs where the memberships don't accept anything but tournament type playing conditions every day. The bar has been set unrealistically high by golfers, who by and large have no idea what it takes to grow grass at an eighth of an inch in 90 degree temps. The fact is we do a very difficult job on a daily basis with constantly changing factors and we do it without the support of enough people at our clubs. We all do this job for the love of the game and the places it is played but we must also remember that we are paid to grow grass and ultimately that is how we are judged so forgive us for the disregard for the the value of some out of place trees that a greens committee may have planted 30 or 40 years ago. If I lose my job for taking steps that I feel will best serve the playing conditions at my course or become a hero for my efforts I'll be able to live with myself in either instance.
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RDecker,
I accept your apology.
But I fear your defensiveness is making it difficult for you to get my point. Please reread all that I have written and see if you still believe what you just wrote.
You write, "You make is sound as if superintendents that strive to grow the best turf possible are being selfish." I do? I will quote myself: "I don't have a problem with tree removal at all" and "I like you am for healthy turf. You are preaching to the choir also."
You write, "...so forgive us for the disregard for the value of some out of place trees that a greens committee may have planted 30 or 40 years ago." Since I have stated that I am not against tree removal and have been involved in the removal of hundreds of trees, I again think your defensiveness is causing you to miss my point.
This thread was titled "Selling a Tree 'Management' Program at you club". All I want along those lines is to ask that posters here consider dealing with the wide range of issues relative to trees and broaden the discussion toward some of the good aspects of trees. It makes for a more thorough discussion in my opinion and helps uninformed readers get a more well rounded understanding of the place for trees on the course. For example, golfer safety was brought up in a point about tree removal I believe. Well, the truth is that trees are one of the best things for increasing golfer safety because they block errant shots. For me it is a lot of fun to consider the swirling winds at Augusta and the role that the trees play in that and the cost to the course to maintain that. It is less fun to simply chop them down--for me and many others. I just thought that sort of idea should be expressed here.
At any rate, I am sorry that some have become defensive here. I even offered up an apology (that I fear Brad missed) in my first post in case I was missing something here. I did take some of you to task for what I read as advocation for deception; and if we are 'selling' tree care to memebers, why would we deceive them? It seems incongruous with the game of golf.
I may have happened upon the wrong thread and maybe I asked for this to be something that only I want it to be. Rather than get you guys any more worked up, I will head on to other topics. I wish you well.
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Guest,
For the sake of discussion, I'd like to know what "the trees" have to do with the merits of the 12th at Augusta National? Perhaps the trees aid in "swirling" the wind down there. Nonetheless, if they clear cut Amen's Corner, the same great golf holes would be down there by Rae's Creek. Those holes were designed around ground features, not the trees. In fact, if I recall correctly, it was pretty barren in that area of the course in 1933, and for many years after.
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Jeff,
Check the photos of Amen Corner from the beginning. You can look some up in Geoff's book THE GOLDEN AGE OF GOLD DESIGN pages 163-166. They left a lot of trees (I presume they were part of the nursery) when they built the course. In fact, those trees are limbed up quite a bit in the photos and they are even throwing shadows on the course. So, maybe MacKensie didn't want the place to be barren. The overhead layout he did for 12 and 13 shows a lot of trees on it. And yes, time and again, the drama of the 12th hole has increased (especially for the Masters tournament) as players stood there trying to decide what club to hit. In my humble opinion, and you should definitely have your own opinion, this is PART of the golf hole. The 13th would play differently too if someone who liked to play left to right could start the ball out way to the left and bring it back. But the trees effect that shot. For a short par five, maybe not being able to cut that corner is a good thing, no? It takes a specific controlled hook to get around the corner. Not a bad request from the architects at that hole. The truth is, they did not clear cut those holes.
If you were in charge, would you clear cut those trees or trim them?
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Guest,
Gun shy about nameless people off the bat!
"Brad, but you would not have been welcome"
Didn't feel any better after that.
"by removing some trees and TRIMMING others to allow in air and light"
turns into
"if you consider 8 straight weeks of removal and trimming in phase one alone"
And this comment is exactly what I hear from irrational members who won't compromise, "instead of turning a parkland course into an open field in one fell swoop"
"[By the way, conifers are ideally suited to snow. Their close to 90 degree branching structure allows them to take on large amounts of snow that at some point slides off. A trip to the Rockie Mountains this winter will verify that"
Guest, I have hundreds if not thousands of coniferous limbs on the ground right now that all snapped of in a heavy snow storm a couple of weeks ago. Most of them are from trees that are too close to playing corridors and or shade my grass. When I referred to the ice and winter damage I meant that the trees inflict this on my turf. But now that you have brought it up the Scotch, Austrian and White pine that are prevalent here all break easily in the heavy snow we tend to get in the east.
I guess we just started on the wrong foot or root, whatever the case and are on the same page. But, if you think it is entirely disrespectful to not listen to 500 members some of which are irrational on good days, then so be it. I think the most telling occurrence in this regard is the situation in which a member will insist that a tree not be removed and never even notice after it is removed. This happens all the time! One last comment, my deceptive thoughts are encouraged by BOD members probably because they know I am to be trusted and won't have a "raze the trees fest".
Regards,
Steve
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Steve,
I am glad we are on the same page. Sorry to hear about the tree damage on your course. No doubt the trees were not hardened off for the winter. Early storms are killers.
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Jeff:
FYI. Augusta National was built through a nursery. It should also be pointed out that each hole is named after a tree.
Guest: You are right on the mark.
New Idea: Smart trees should remain on a golf course.
Lessons Learned: Not all courses that have removed large quantities of trees have received long term positive professional critiques. Kennett Square (D. Ross course) comes immediately to mind.
HW
Guest,
For the sake of discussion, I'd like to know what "the trees" have to do with the merits of the 12th at Augusta National? Perhaps the trees aid in "swirling" the wind down there. Nonetheless, if they clear cut Amen's Corner, the same great golf holes would be down there by Rae's Creek. Those holes were designed around ground features, not the trees. In fact, if I recall correctly, it was pretty barren in that area of the course in 1933, and for many years after.
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Brad:
You said:
>Paul Richards misquoted me. What I said was that if a tree needs to be trimmed, it's easier and better just to cut it down altogether. If it needs trimming, it doesn't belong there.
I agree. Sorry if I misquoted you. :-[ :)
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Our club planted several hundred pine trees of various types during the early 1980's. They were planted along what was the edge of the fairways at the time. Now, our fairways are half the width. We are badly in need of a tree "Management" program. Some influential members are fairly open to the concept but need a little more "justification" to get on board.
Does anyone have an analysis of the savings in maintenance cost, on a "cost per tree" basis? Less time mowing rough, trimming, pest control, leave/branch clean up, water, etc.
If we remove 300 trees (20-30 foot pine trees) how much will we save per year in course maintenance?
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Bruce,
You need to message Kris Shreiner. His brothers company are the best! I will not drop names in an open forum but they deal with THE best courses in the US and will give you the best read on this.
www.shreinertreecare.com
They host a BBQ each year at Aronomick and also did at the Walker Cup at Merion. Lots of GCAers were there. They really 'get it'.
Simon
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There was a really good article in the spring issue of LINKS magazine that presented the cost analysis for trees on golf courses. USGA
was quoted and it was very detailed. If you can't find it online or whatever let me know, I have it posted in the men's lounge at my club and I could email you a copy or something.
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RDecker,thanks for the Links Magazine article heads up (and the original thread).The article is available online--it just takes a little time to find it.
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Our club planted several hundred pine trees of various types during the early 1980's. They were planted along what was the edge of the fairways at the time. Now, our fairways are half the width. We are badly in need of a tree "Management" program. Some influential members are fairly open to the concept but need a little more "justification" to get on board.
Does anyone have an analysis of the savings in maintenance cost, on a "cost per tree" basis? Less time mowing rough, trimming, pest control, leave/branch clean up, water, etc.
If we remove 300 trees (20-30 foot pine trees) how much will we save per year in course maintenance?
Read the two Feature Interviews with Dunlop White from February/March 2005.
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Don't try to sell it (they might say no).
Just do it and most will be on board when they see the results.
Start slow and keep the pedal down.