Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Robert Mercer Deruntz on August 21, 2005, 10:49:17 PM
-
I walked the course with one of my pupils who is competing this week. Having never seen the course I was beyond impressed by the layout. The course is now green, but is in pretty poor shape--I have a feeling the fungus practically killed the course a few weeks ago and was saved by brilliant greenskeeping. The fairways will most unlikely get firm this week--they are borderline muddy at the moment. In fact the course is extremely soft, but green speed is pretty good. If the powers that be at Merion are hoping for an Open, then they are dreaming. It has nothing to do with the layout--this place could host an epic Ryder or Walker any day! Actually the holes are great, but there are 4 crossovers because of extended tees, and several places where tees and greens are so close that the pace of play would be a disaster. Also, the driving range is literally 2 miles away from the clubhouse. In addition, there is no way 10,000 people can roam the grounds--typical courses must acccomidate 40,000. Then there is the loss of corporate tent revenue--it would be hard to fit more than 6-7 tents in the normal driving range that is being used for tournament officials parking( it cannot be more than 250 by 50 yards). And for a big production, the TV people need some acreage for their huge fleet of trucks and tents. One member working this week as an official boasted that the USGA likes to average out the numbers, so they would be willing to make a financial sacrifice by hosting the event at Merion. They certainly would make some sacrifices, but there are too many factors working against an Open. Also, I wonder how the neighbors would react to an Open--How many people will welcome the populace walking through their multi-million dollar properties? There are some serious homes in this neighborhood and these people probably value their privacy and will take the necessary steps to maintain their privacy! This being said, having played the majority of the top 50 in the world, this course has to be among my top 12!
-
I forgot to mention that there USGA probelms with 5,12, and 15 greens. They are being deliberately slowed in relation to the other greens. These greens are nothing short of brilliant. Unfortunately, I never found a spot under 2.3 degrees of slope on 5--mostly in the 3-5 degree range. It was pretty close to the same on 12 and 15. I found three 1.7 degree areas on 12, but they were very close together and only a 1.8 degree spot on 15 with the slopes in the 3-4 degree range on these greens. These slopes are cool under normal golf conditions, but are unpinnable when greens are firm and running around 11 or more on the stimpmeter. The USGA has taken quite a bit of abuse for the 18th at Southern Hills --different green speeds create a storm of outcry from the competitors. I would cry if they changed these greens to simply land an Open!
-
Glad to see a cooperative forecast for the week. I'm
interested in possibly seeing some play on Wed. What is the
procedure for trying to get tickets?
-
The Walker Cup will be at Merion in 2009.
-
Robert:
They may have to sacrifice revenue but it's not as if a US Open is a new thing to Merion. Don't forget they've held a number of them, the last being in 1981.
But for the golf course itself it will be interesting to see what the top 64 scores will be at Merion in this two day stroke play qualifier into match play. Even being as soft as it is I doubt 64 players will shoot better than around 74 (par is 70). A few may go low but I doubt many will.
-
It's probably two early to tell, but of the first 26 contestants to finish 9 holes at Merion, 1 is at Even, 2 are +1, and the rest range from +2 to +9, mostly towards the high end.
-
since those punk kids are so good ;), I would think it would be pretty amazing if they don't go low out there, esp. if it's wet and the greens are slower and holding...
-
I recall the driving range being behind the maintenance building. It isn't near the clubhouse -- but it also isn't "two miles away." Could Merion function for an Open? I don't think so -- but it has nothing to do with the range or the golf course, and everything to do with the logistics of getting fans around the course and finding places for corporate tents. Both would be next to impossible.
-
Another way to look at it is of the first 29 players to finish 9 holes at Merion, 17 of them are +5 or higher.
-
The scoring seems much higher at Merion than I would have anticipated given soft conditions.
So far, of those players completing nine holes;
3 are even
6 are +1
7 are +2
6 are +3
3 are +4
9 are +5
5 are +6
7 are +7
2 are +8
1 at +9
1 at +13
-
Then there is the loss of corporate tent revenue--it would be hard to fit more than 6-7 tents in the normal driving range that is being used for tournament officials parking( it cannot be more than 250 by 50 yards).
Robert T.,
The regular range is being used for parking. My guess is they have a driving range set up somewhere on the West Course, which is a couple of miles away.
-
Then there is the loss of corporate tent revenue--it would be hard to fit more than 6-7 tents in the normal driving range that is being used for tournament officials parking( it cannot be more than 250 by 50 yards).
Robert T.,
The regular range is being used for parking. My guess is they have a driving range set up somewhere on the West Course, which is a couple of miles away.
In the 1993 and 1994 Tour Championships at Olympic, they used parts of the Ocean course for parking. I "drove" down one of the fairways!
-
Merion must be playing unbelievably difficult. The low in the house there is +4. Wow!! And, there are currently only eight guys on the course who are at Even par.
I see our young Junior champion is making a bit of a mockery of Philly CC. 32 on the back with a pair of bogeys!! :o
-
tway had a 2 on the par 4 16th.
+1 is now the best at Merion.
-
What is the set-up like? Does it have the hay like Oakmont did a couple years ago?
On another note, I heard that Merion had sort of worked out off-site corporate tents and such with nearby venues in an effort to be more appealing to the Blue Coats.
Jeff Goldman
-
I haven't been there yet, but the website talks about 4 inches of primary rough.
There is one 71 so far, and a few 74s...quite a number in the 80s as well.
My sense is that the club is trying to show the USGA that the course will hold up to top players...and is likely succeeding.
-
Tway is at Philly CC.
-
The guy that shot a 71 is the 18 yr old Walker Cup member.
-
With what looks to be about half the field already finished, those playing at Merion;
1 - +1
1 - +2
2 - +3
4 - +4
8 - +6
2 - +7
3 - +8
5 - +9
2 - +10
2 - +11
3 - +12
2 - +13
2 - +14
1 - +15
1 - +16
-
Tony,
I'm not quite sure that 3 under for 9 holes is a making a mockery of Philly CC. ;)
I've been very curious to see what the scores at Merion would be. I have been told that the course is softer than it usually is for the Hugh Wilson, and the scores are still very high. Having played Merion over the years, the high scores are NO surprise, the young bombers will not overpower that golf course.
-
Jamie - You are probalby right. That was a bit loud to say mockery. He is going around quite nicely, though.
It appears they only update the scores after nine holes. I wonder why?
-
3 - +1
1 - +2
2 - +3
5 - +4
2 - +5
8 - +6
3 - +7
6 - +8
5 - +9
4 - +10
3 - +11
3 - +12
2 - +13
2 - +14
3 - +15
1 - +16
1 - +17
-
Tony,
How old is Kevin Tway? Am I correct to assume he is Bob Tway's son? Something to be said for those golf genes!
Ouch...just updated...Tway +6 on the front nine at Philly CC, +3, 73 for the day.
-
The US Am is currently being led by a couple of "Canucks"...more interestingly, their last names are:
PARR & YIP...you just can't make this stuff up! ;D
-
I'm pretty astounded at these scores.
Today in Philly is near perfect, weather-wise, with a high in the upper 80s, low-humidity, and 5-10mph winds after a steamy, damp weekend.
Can you imagine a windy day?
-
Yep, he's Tway's son.
Tony -
It would take more volunteers than they have to coordinate scoring updates more frequently, I'm guessing. I think there are over 300 qualifiers, aren't there?
-
Are they using the very back tees on 18? What do you think they're hitting into that green?
-
I'm pretty astounded at these scores.
Today in Philly is near perfect, weather-wise, with a high in the upper 80s, low-humidity, and 5-10mph winds after a steamy, damp weekend.
Can you imagine a windy day?
Mike,
I agree 100%. One reason I could give for the high scoring is that the majority of players from across the country have simply not played a course like Merion before. One practice round is not enough to get a great feel for it either. The total "card yardage" at Merion means very little. Perhaps these kids who play in the south or out west are having real difficulty adjusting their games to Merion. Living in this area, and competing on the courses in Philly, North Jersey, Metro NY/LI, we are used to playing this style of course. The best players will adjust to any conditions, it is going to be fun viewing.
The pressure of the US Am is very high to begin with, when you add the difficulties of Merion to the mix, you are going to get some high scores.
I'll be heading to Merion tomorrow morning to check out the play. It'll be interesting to see the setup and hole locations.
-
With about 15 contestants still on the course;
1 - Even
3 - +1
1 - +2
3 - +3
6 - +4
4 - +5
10 - +6
3 - +7
7 - +8
5 - +9
5 - +10
4 - +11
4 - +12
2 - +13
2 - +14
3 - +15
1 - +16
1 - +17
Any statisticians out there come up with a quick scoring avg?
-
With about 15 contestants still on the course;
1 - Even
3 - +1
1 - +2
3 - +3
6 - +4
4 - +5
10 - +6
3 - +7
7 - +8
5 - +9
5 - +10
4 - +11
4 - +12
2 - +13
2 - +14
3 - +15
1 - +16
1 - +17
Any statisticians out there come up with a quick scoring avg?
Based on your above scores, the stroke average thus far is:
76.75
-
wow!
do you in the know think it will play evern harder if it dries out?
-
wow!
do you in the know think it will play evern harder if it dries out?
I'm sure many/most courses fit the following criteria, Merion becomes exponentially more difficult as it gets firmer.
The fairways all seem to slope at least little so they naturally shrink up dramatically, and the greens become much more difficult to recover to when firm.
Could be really interesting as the week evolves. Unfortunately, I think it would have been preferrable (to the powers at Merion) for the stroke play portion to play real firm and fast.
-
I am with Jamie on this .
Having had the good fortune to play in several Wilson events, I know how friggin tough that course is with a card in your back pocket..even if it is fairly soft.
At the Wilson the course is always fast running and simply a brute..but the most gorgeaous and delightful brute there is ;)
No surprises from me on the scoring, in fact I told the local kids who qualified from my site, that the stroke average at Merion would be in excess of 77..when I told then that was 7 over ..of course their young minds told me what I was full of ;D
Merion is quite simply a great great golf course, which is to be treated with very much respect...or else.
-
Play (or should I say "carnage" is almost over for the day at Merion);
1 - -1
2 - Even
3 - +1
2 - +2
3 - +3
6 - +4
6 - +5
11 - +6
4 - +7
7 - +8
6 - +9
8 - +10
5 - +11
5 - +12
2 - +13
2 - +14
3 - +15
1 - +16
1 - +17
-
How is Philly Country playing?
-
Play (or should I say "carnage" is almost over for the day at Merion);
1 - -1
2 - Even
3 - +1
2 - +2
3 - +3
6 - +4
6 - +5
11 - +6
4 - +7
7 - +8
6 - +9
8 - +10
5 - +11
5 - +12
2 - +13
2 - +14
3 - +15
1 - +16
1 - +17
Only halfway Mike, there are another 78 playing this afternoon.
Kyle,
The scores are not as high as at Merion, but the course is certainly standing up well. The predictions from a few weeks ago of a 10 over par playoff for match play might not be too far off. I would bet on 7 or 8 over myself after looking at the scoring from this morning a bit.
-
Sully,
Yes....Duh on me! ::) :-[
Seems to be some breeze blowing out my window, so I'm betting the courses won't get any easier, although someone fired -5 on the back nine at PCC, I see.
Although, conversely, pity poor Nick Chauvenet who shot 48 on the front side at Merion with a 9 on the drive and pitch starting hole.
-
Merion is not using the back tee on 18 for aualifying but will be using it for match play.
-
Also, Luke List, last year's finalist at Winged Foot, shot 80 at Merion today.
-
I did see those low nines at Philly. -5 is pretty good anywhere so well done. I must admit I expected a few scores in the mid 60's there so we'll see.
How about Luke List? +6 on his first three holes at Merion. It can happen to anyone I guess.
Fred,
Thanks for that update re: #18, I was curious. I guess pace of play is the driving force on that decision and it seems a good one. Still an awesome hole to try and par.
-
Does anybody have a carry yardage from that back tee?
When I played last year into a breeze, it appeared that it would be too far for shorter hitters like myself to make the fairway.
Have they taken away the 10 yards of rough at the top of the hill prior to reaching the fairway?
THANKS...boy I wish I was there :(
-
How about some info on any "lovely" pin positions that they have for the qualifying porions.
-
I did see those low nines at Philly. -5 is pretty good anywhere so well done. I must admit I expected a few scores in the mid 60's there so we'll see.
How about Luke List? +6 on his first three holes at Merion. It can happen to anyone I guess.
Fred,
Thanks for that update re: #18, I was curious. I guess pace of play is the driving force on that decision and it seems a good one. Still an awesome hole to try and par.
I think List did not make it to match play at the APL this year. Having a rough summer.
-
Well...seems as though afternoon play isn't getting much better...
After nine holes, two guys at Merion are a +9, 1 is at +11, 2 are at +12, and 1 is at +13.
-
I just left Merion and one guy from Bend, Oregon shot 69. Most scores are in the mid to upper 70s. The course is firming up since this morning and if the weather sticks to the forecast, I think we're gonna see the course play firm and fast.
-
TEP's protegee John Hurley is +6 at the turn.
-
My good friend Austin Eaton(2004 US Mid-Am Champ) shot 71 at Philly CC today. He plays early tomorrow at Merion. The guy he beat in last year's US Mid-Am Final didn't fair so well...88 at Merion today. :o
-
TEP's protegee John Hurley is +6 at the turn.
Tom,
Is that the young man we saw at Wild Horse?
Bob
-
Bob,
Yes, from TE's earlier posts on another thread.
-
Folks,
I was at Merion today, too, and here are some thoughts:
First, the course looks spectacular. The bunker work generally has won me over (see below for reservations). I think it looks better than before. The tree removal was brilliant, too, especially the clearing out they did around 17 green (again, some reservations below). In short, the place looks stunning. I was staggering around the place!
Second, certain areas are just claustrophobic: the menagerie of humanity around 18 green, the practice greens, the pro shop, 1 tee, and 14 tee was too much--and it's only Monday of the Amateur. Likewise, the scene in the left rough on 10, 5 tee, 2 tee, and 10 green was chaotic. Also, 3 tee, 6 tee, and 2 green were jammed.
Third, holy slow play! Too many guys are taking too long to play. One caddie today (quietly) was complaining about his own man. The group I followed played in 5 hrs. 20 minutes. That's too long.
Fourth, club selection: On 5, I saw lots of driver/3 iron. On 10, I saw a mix of 3/5 metal or iron. I saw one player drive 10 with a 3 metal, but most were playing to a half wedge distance. I couldn't see selection on 14, but that hole was playing tough today. 16 saw most players with about 115 yds. to the hole (back left today). 17 looked impossible. At 246, though, many players were hole high with irons--shocking! I just read they were NOT using the back tee at 18!? Are you telling me there's a tee ACROSS the service road? Holy insanity! I do know that 3-5 irons were hit on the second shots there.
Fifth, I saw Nick Chauvenet play 1 today. His nine inlcuded a topped drive, a lay up to 80 yards, a thinned chip across Golf House Road, a chunked re-hit, a pitch, and a three putt. It was a train wreck in slow motion; I felt for the lad.
Sixth, questions/comments: Why do only 5 and 14 have the extended shaved areas around their greens (5 to the right, and 14 to the left)? Could that set-up be used elsewhere on the course, too? Why not open up the right side of 6 fairway more, allowing more fairway where there is rough? The rough up the right side just looks useless. I know the 1930 plan calls for bunkers in front of 4 green, but that green could gain some more interest if the green were brought right up to the creek. Why not trim some trees between 6/7 and 4/5?
Seventh, I'm still jacked-up from the day, and I can't wait to see the weekend play! I commend the staff there for showing Merion's best!
Best,
Fred Chandler
-
Fred
Re: Slow play - PJ Boatright had it on mark when he said #3 was the culprit. That par 3 determined what progress was made on #4 & #5, and that started the slow move because there was no pressure behind.
Just so happened that I suggested that if there was a jam at #3 let the group behind hit up when the group ahead got to the green.
It worked, and I think the field finished OK. Sorry to butt in, my buddies from Penna Golf Assn.
Willie
-
What should be the headlines tomorrow?
Murder at Merion!
My lord, if they get her playing firm and fast the field may never finish.
The final bloody totals...
2 - -1
2 - Even
5 - +1
5 - +2
6 - +3
9 - +4
9 - +5
17 - +6
10 - +7
20 - +8
10 - +9
10 - +10
10 - +11
13 - +12
3 - +13
5 - +14
6 - +15
1 - +16
4 - +17
4 - +18
1 - +21
1 - +22
1 - +24
Any statisticians out there come up with a Scoring Average?
-
From Associated Press:
Beljan leads U.S. Amateur qualifying
August 22, 2005
ARDMORE, Pa. --University of New Mexico junior Charlie Beljan shot a 6-under 64 on Monday at Philadelphia Country Club to take the first-round lead in stroke-play qualifying for the U.S. Amateur Championship.
Texas A&M senior Andrew Parr, Kent State senior Ryan Yip, Duke senior Ryan Blaum, Saint Mary's College (Calif.) junior Chandler Cocco and New Mexico senior Jay Choi were tied for second after 68s, all at Philadelphia Country Club.
Mark Strickland of Woodstock, Ga., and Todd Mitchell of Bloomington, Ill., had the only under-par rounds on the more difficult Merion Golf Club course, opening with 69s.
The players will switch courses Tuesday, with the low 64 in the 312-man field advancing to match play on Merion's historic Hugh Wilson-designed East Course. The 36-hole final is Sunday.
The 6-foot-4, 220-pound Beljan, the 2002 U.S. Junior Amateur champion, had nine birdies and three bogeys. He recently returned from a two-month break because of two bulging discs in his back.
"My first tournament back was the qualifier," Beljan said. "I knew if I could get out to a great start, things would get rolling. I didn't hit it that great today, but I made the putts. I made the up-and-downs. Everything fell together. Other than the finals of the Junior, this is one of my best."
Canadian Jason Lepp, the 2005 NCAA individual champion from the University of Washington, shot a 70 at Merion.
U.S. Junior Amateur champion Sihwan Kim and young Walker Cup players Oliver Fisher and Brian Harman also got off to good starts. The 15-year-old Kim, from Fullerton, Calif., shot a 70 at Merion, while the 18-year-old Harman, the youngest player on the winning U.S. team, had a 71 at Merion, and the 16-year-old Fisher, the youngest player in Walker Cup history, shot a 70 at Philadelphia Country Club.
Pat Youngs, the husband of space shuttle Discovery commander Eileen Collins, shot a 76 at Merion. "It's an awesome experience," the 47-year-old commercial pilot said. "It's so rich in history."
Canada's Richard Lee, the youngest player in the field at 14, opened with a 71 at Philadelphia Country Club, and 58-year-old Greg Reynolds, of Grand Blanc, Mich., the 2002 Senior Amateur champion, had a 72 on the Philadelphia layout.
Danny Green, the 1989 runner-up at Merion, had a 74 on the course. The 48-year-old Green lost 3 and 1 to Chris Patton in the '89 final.
"This tournament now is a kids tournament," Green said. "It's about college-age players and how far they can boom it. But if the course gets firmer and faster, it will play into my hands. If a kid drives it 40 yards past me in the rough, that's not an advantage for him."
Last year, Ryan Moore won the last four holes to beat Luke List 2-up in the final at Winged Foot in Mamaroneck, N.Y. Moore turned pro after the U.S. Open.
List opened with an 80 on Monday at Merion.
-
Any statisticians out there come up with a Scoring Average?
I'm not a statistician, except when required, but I can't resist such a question.
The answer (unless I've messed it up! never trust a journalist's math!) is 78.584416.
-
Willie:
That was pretty funny. When we got up the the 3rd green here's the group ahead putting. Somebody working the tounament asked who told the group ahead to let the following group hit up and they pointed to you. Despite your efforts to speed up play the 2:42 group did not finish the front nine within three hours waiting the whole time. The culprit on the front is #4 slows down play because some of these guys are long enough now to wait after their tee shots for the green to clear and #5 took most groups a long time---eg few pars there today.
Young Hurley's round at Merion was a disaster. He started birdie, double, birdie, double. After 12 he was seven over. He lost a ball on 15 that never should've been lost and he lost two balls on #17 and another one on #18 and finished 87. He did unload about three otherworldly drivers in the process though. Tomorrow with nothing to lose he plans to attack PCC with a vengence! ;)
I expect him to drive the ball perhaps fourteen times including trying to go right after #1, maybe even #2 and #16. On #8 in practice he just about did drive the front of that green. Since his changes of qualifying for match play are gone he may as well leave behind a couple of legend stories! ;)
-
Any statisticians out there come up with a Scoring Average?
I'm not a statistician, except when required, but I can't resist such a question.
The answer (unless I've messed it up! never trust a journalist's math!) is 78.584416.
Thank you, Dan...
I'm mathematically challenged, so I appreciate the help.
I guess the field hit a lot of golf shots at Merion today...about 12,102 or so...guess they got their money's worth. ;)
-
As I came to the tee on #14 with the last group off #1 in the afternoon there were 31 scores for the day at Merion of 75 or better. That's pretty much on pace with my prediction that there probably won't be 64 players in qualifying who shoot 74 or better at Merion. PCC was a far different story. There'll probably be play-off at 146 or 147.
-
As I came to the tee on #14 with the last group off #1 in the afternoon there were 31 scores for the day at Merion of 75 or better. That's pretty much on pace with my prediction that there probably won't be 64 players in qualifying who shoot 74 or better at Merion. PCC was a far different story.
Tom,
29 of 154 finished +4 or better. Nice prediction...are you going to now go all psychic on us, or what?
-
Pat Youngs, the husband of space shuttle Discovery commander Eileen Collins, shot a 76 at Merion. "It's an awesome experience," the 47-year-old commercial pilot said. "It's so rich in history."
If you guys are looking for a mid-am to pull for, then Pat Youngs is your guy. He is such a good guy and a very steady player.
As the article said, his wife was the latest space shuttle commander, and he qualified for the U.S. Am when she was on her mission. Imagine going to bed knowing that your wife is floating above you somewhere!
Of course they were anxious to get the shuttle up (and down) again, knowing for some time that she would be the next commander, and having known many if not all of the Columbia crew that perished in 2003. All of them are true heroes...
Hopefully he'll do well tomorrow. He survived Merion with a 76, so a 71 at PCC should put him through.
-
A couple of my points about a potential US Open not being viable seemed to be played out today. The area around the clubhouse is too clausterphobic. The same applies to the area of 2 green, 3 tee, 6 tee, and 5 green. This is a jam that did not previously exist in the past US Opens due to the lengthened tees. Players are forced to wait for others to play shots on greens or tees and the pace of play suffers. The same jamup will occurr on 15 tee, 16 green, and 17 tee. It really does not surprise me that the course pretty much slaughtered the field--is there a better championship finish in golf? Especially, after many great previous holes.
-
Robert:
Those are some interesting observations of yours about how the new tip tees on #6 and the cross-overs from #2 green to #3 tee and #5 green to #6 tee may be creating a logjam. I was following the last group in the afternoon off #1 tee and there was almost a two group wait on #3 tee. I think some of the problem begins with players waiting on #4 fairway to go at #4 in two (something that virually never happened before) and the difficulty of #5 now (from the new tip tee). There were not a lot of pars today on #5---and that hole had to be over the 14-15 minute allotement in every group.
#15-16-17-18 are also a little jumbled now with the new tees but that could all be improved by improved roping and rope gating for the spectators and players and staffing up of marshalls and such.
On #2-3tee and #5-6tee things could also be improved by roping and rope gating and more marshalls and staffing. Actually for players it's a bit easier now getting from #5 green to #6 tee because players go around the back of #3 tee instead of basically crossing over it to get to #6 tee.
As for corporate tents and such in an Open they would probably just have to really re-work the entire area to the right of #13, to the right of the clubhouse (caddie area) and the entire stretch along the parking lot to include the practice range for corporate tents. They're using the practice range for some parking in the amateur and obviously that entire area could be used for corporate tents and such with far more parking off-site. Reworking the land all along the right by the train tracks would cost quite a bit though, I'm sure. but there is more available space there than most realize.
For more available space Merion could also use the residence they recently bought behind #2 green and to the right of #6 (more corporate tents or whatever). That residence is six acres (a whole lot more ground than most realize).
The more interesting question of whether or not Merion East as a golf course has become obsolete in some way in play due to too little length or because it could not defend itself well enough in play for some other reason was partially answered on Monday, though, and obviously will be again today. The answer, long awaited, seems to be the golf course can definitely defend itself (given the proper set-up) in even a US Open in the future.
Merion always has been a tightish and cozy golf course seeing as it's on a total of about 126-130 acres and in a future Open it'd just get a bit more cozy! ;)
The real problem with holding a future Open at Merion is one that's rarely if ever been mentioned on here. It's how to manage effectively enough (if it could even possibly be done effectively enough) dangerous weather egress for thousands of people on that golf course. This is a legal and liability reality that's gotten far more important than in years past, and it just may be the primary obstacle to holding another Open at Merion in the future. I have no idea what the answer to the last and probably primary problem would be. I do know a lot of people who own those large residences to the left of #14 and #15 and that community back in there. I guess the question becomes if a big storm blew in could the club convince enough of them to hold a party for about 50,000 people ;)
There seems to be a contingent within the USGA that would like to see the Open come back to Merion in the future but at some point, given all mentioned above, the question would probably become how much would Merion, the club and membership want it?
If it seemed like a reality and I was a member of Merion I think I'd probably vote against it----except perhaps with one ineresting contingency. Again, I think the course can defend itself well enough in an Open but if I were Merion, I'd tell the USGA that we would hold another Open but only if they (the USGA/R&A) agreed to reign in distance first!! ;)
-
Tom,
Just curious. I know it is a established pattern to have the range down on The West, but are there any player complaints about all the logistics?
PS. I saw John Hurley's number from Merion, and it is an interesting case study of wide fairways at Wild Horse vs tight fairways of Merion.
-
Interesting ! Tom, maybe we should let the second shot at the par 5 fourth be a copy of what I did at three. Unfortunately, I can't check this out with PJ.
-
Willie:
PJ or no PJ there's no question in my mind but that the USGA should place you at a vantage point so you could see everything going on on #3 and #4. They should give you a radio and put you in radio contact with officials behind #3 green, at the top of the hill on #4 and at the green on #4.
Groups reaching #3 green should mark and step aside and let the group behind them play up. Not just that but anyone waiting on #4 green should mark and step aside if someone in the fairway is going at that green in two. Not only THAT but if someone is waiting to go in two on #4 fairway and holding up the group behind them on the tee they too should step aside and let them drive!
You could be the ultimate golf tournament traffic cop----eg----"#3 green, tell them to mark and get the hell off that green---OK, #3 tee GO, GO GO! #4 green, tell them to mark and run, there'll be an incoming in two from the fairway in about 30 seconds after the player lets the group behind him finish teeing off. #4 tee, GO, GO, GO!! OK, #4 fairway, GO, GO, GO! HEY, player #78, you got 3 1/2 seconds to mark that ball and get the hell off this green or I'll slap a Rule 6-7 warning right on your forehead!! OK, player #78 you have one minute to replace and hit that putt and get to the 5th tee or you'll be on the clock!! Hey, player #78, you better report to that official behind the 3rd tee as you cross over to the 6th tee in exactly 17 minutes or you've got a one stroke penalty! And if I don't see you off #7 green in 29 minutes you got Two!! ;) :)
They need you Willie, unless they want the last group today to finish in almost total darkness as Nebraska's young John Hurley's group did last night and unless the USGA wants to finish the play-off into match play early Wednesday morning. I can almost guarantee you that will happen unless they let you get out there with a radio and some traffic cops to help you move those groups through that logjam. ;)
-
How about James Lepp, the NCAA individual champion, hitting driver 360y and PW into 18!!! No 1iron for him.
-
A competitor from Canada is 5 under after nine at Merion today. They're probably double cutting the greens on the back nine as we speak.
-
Canadian golfer Keven Simard blazed through the front-nine at Merion this morning with a 5-under 31 and is the new leader. Yesterday's leader Charles Beljan shot 4-over on the same nine, and has dropped to -2.
It will be interesting to see how low Simard can go, and how that might affect the USGA's view of the proceedings.
-
What's the cause of all the doubles and triples at Merion? Are they hitting balls OB, or losing balls in the rough, or just struggling with the rough and greens?
-
re the crowd concerns, do we know how many people were out there yesterday? how many at the last Open there?
-
What's the cause of all the doubles and triples at Merion? Are they hitting balls OB, or losing balls in the rough, or just struggling with the rough and greens?
Brian,
Without having seen any play yet, I can say from experience that doubles at Merion start with a missed fairway. Frequently your lie is such that you cannot reach the green so you lay up to 5 or 100 yards out. Pitch to a tough spot to putt from (easy to do with those greens) and then three putt. Like Bill V said, your head can get spinning real fast without feeling you're playing all that poorly.
I would think Merion would be the type of course that highlights the differences between an amateur and a pro very well. The challenges at Merion are every bit as much mental strength as they are physical ability, perhaps more so, and that is the biggest difference between a real good amateur and a decent pro.
-
Jamie
right on the mark. Merion can work you over much more mentally than practically any course that I have played. It takes tremendous discipline and thought to map out every shot. When I worked there, I only hit driver maybe 6 times.
It is the ultimate "Chess Match". Point a to point b. I don't think that alot of the contestants are that familiar with the subtleties to know the nuances of the course. How many people have you known that "disrespected" the length and ended up making a double and couldn't figure how it happened?
Also I was very interested in the hole by hole scores comparing the first 6 holes, the middle 7 holes and the back 5 holes. Alot of train wrecks on the back 5. I can't wait for the telecast!
-
Merion must be breathing a huge sigh of collective relief after Keven Simard came slightly back down to earth after a scorching front nine to finish at -1, 69.
Interestingly, the hole that did him in was a triple on #12.
The course also took its toll on yesterday's leader Charles Beljan, who still managed a +6, 76 for a 36 hole total of even par.
Jamie's buddy Austin Eaton also shot 70 today at Merion for a +1 overall and assurance of Match Play.
Overall, still a LOT of scores in the 80s at Merion and a lot of folks who started the day around par after yesterday's round at Philly are struggling to make the cut, presently projected to be at +8.
-
One fellow managed to par the long and difficult back to back par four 5th & 6th holes at Merion today, yet still scored 96.
-
96!?!?!?!? is it that guy that got in a B Open qualifier in the 80s and shot a 110 or something like that???
-
96!?!?!?!? is it that guy that got in a B Open qualifier in the 80s and shot a 110 or something like that???
Paul,
I don't know but he shot 79 yesterday at Philly CC so he must be a decent player.
It's not that unusual....there are already 25 finishers today in the 80s and another in the 90s.
Two guys who shot in the 80s yesterday at Merion finished with 68 and 69 at PCC today, respectively.
Another had 73 at PCC yesterday and 87 at Merion today.
Yesterday there was a difference of over 4 shots between the courses...I sense it's larger today.
-
96!?!?!?!? is it that guy that got in a B Open qualifier in the 80s and shot a 110 or something like that???
Paul,
That guy was Maurice G. Flitcroft.
See:
http://www.eamonlynch.com/work8.htm
Bob
-
That guy was Maurice G. Flitcroft.
Bob --
Was Mr. Flitcroft (a name of which Dickens himself would have been proud) any relation to Eddie (The Eagle) Edwards?
Or was he merely, perhaps, Eddie's idol?
Dan
P.S. I can't Google up a single picture of Mr. Flitcroft. Dang.
-
Well...I just got back after spending the day watching my friend at Merion. Austin played very solid, and if not for a stubbed chip shot on #18 would have been under par.
A couple of observations: Merion looked great. There were just a few thin spots in the fairways from the Pythium Blight, nothing severe, and the greens looked like they rolled very well. I know the scores are very high, but I honestly think the conditions were on the easy side for what we usually see at Merion. The hardest aspect were the hole locations, they were in some difficult spots. The rough was spotty, much thinner than usual in most areas, and a lot of the areas that normally have very heavy rough were thinner and tramped down by the galleries. The greens were very receptive for Merion. I saw full shots making good sized ball marks, and some shots from the rough that held the greens...this is abnormal for Merion. Most of the time you fix a "dent" and can forget about stopping a ball from the rough. With the favorable weather forecast of cooler and drier weather, I'm sure they'll be able to get the course firmer throughout the week.
I would imagine the USGA is thrilled with the way Merion has held up to scoring despite its softer than normal conditions. I spoke to a few guys today that know how Merion usually is set up for the Hugh Wilson, and they had many of the same thoughts that I had.
All in all, I really think the course will shine this week. It is a great design in every regard and will continue to be a superior test for Match Play.
-
Is all this gloating about the best amateurs in the world posting extremely high scores at Merion supposed to be an indication of the greatness of the course? Would it be a better course if the scores were even higher?
Or is it a sign that the USGA has gotten things terribly wrong? Again.
Bob
-
thanks Bob!...and I read where I was wrong, he didn't shoot 110...he shot a 121! ;D
Mike C: I just figured those young studs would never shoot in the 90's ANYWHERE!!! the old girl is slapping some serious butt around , isn't she!! :D
-
I do not think anybody is gloating, just those that know the course and respect it, are glad to see that with modern technology it is still a great challenge.
I trust Jamie's views 100% as he like myself sees the course annualy for the Hugh Wilson and as such can fairly compare the set up that the USGA has laid down.
As he has stated the set up is nothing more than is usual for that event, as such Merion dose indeed display greatness even with the prodigious length that is out there...all be it with some extra tees ;)
-
By the way Jamie,
Why dont you hire some heavies to make sure those tees are not in play next may ;D
-
Bob,
I'm not sure anyone's gloating. I'm really frankly very surprised, especially given the soft weather conditions we've had here in recent weeks. (see Jamie's first-hand account above for more definitive info about the setup). I had expected some of these long-hitting fearless kids to go low.
Instead I watch the leaderboard and see good players taking 8's and 9s on holes and can't believe what I'm seeing.
For years the conventional wisdom has been that Merion is "too short" to host major tournaments and in a day of 300+ yard driving averages, it seemed logical enough.
Instead, like Lytham in the British Open a few years back, it seems that a course at less than 6900 yards can still confound top players.
Perhaps there are some lessons to be learned?
-
Is all this gloating about the best amateurs in the world posting extremely high scores at Merion supposed to be an indication of the greatness of the course? Would it be a better course if the scores were even higher?
Or is it a sign that the USGA has gotten things terribly wrong? Again.
Bob
Bob,
The USGA has absolutely done nothing wrong with the setup of Merion. If any player bitches about the conditions or setup thus far, they should take up another sport. Merion is just simply a very difficult course, the setup that I saw today is nothing but FAIR.
Perhaps with the rough being just a bit thinner, the players are trying some approach shots that may not be the right choice. Instead of just hacking the ball back into play as you sometimes have to do there, they are taking just enough risk on some approach shots, and if not played perfectly, often lead to bigger problems.
-
Bob,
I also think this is good news for the type of golf we like.
It certainly deflates the argument that we need to be building 7,500-8,000 yard golf courses to present a challenge.
I even read the term "firm and fast" in the "Philadelphia Inquirer" today, talking about the type of conditions that tournament officials are hoping to have later this week.
What's next? An article about "maintenance meld" on the cover of the sports section of "USA Today"? ;)
-
Mike Cirba, JSlonis & MWP,
Is this a sign that the USGA and Merion are correct, that deep penal rough is a valid method for protecting par, especially when combined with lengthened holes and narrowed farirways ?
Mike Cirba,
I thought you were opposed to the concept of protecting par
-
Another observation of today's play. While the golf ball is indeed traveling farther, and curving less, I sure did not see a great display of driving the golf ball. I realize the nerves that come with playing in an event like this, but for the most part, I saw a lot of guys well out of play.
I think you are seeing the same thing from the PGA Tour each week as well. I'm surprised to see so many players continue to drive the ball out of play. If you saw any of this past weekends tourney from Firestone, I'm sure you'd agree...Does anyone care if they hit it in the fairway anymore?
While distance sure has it's advantages, it doesn't matter at courses like Merion. If you can't control your tee shot to some degree, you will simply pay the price.
-
Patrick
It is simply what I have been preaching for a very long time.
Make accuracy off the tee count for something, keep the fairways fast to enhance that view and then make the greens tricky but fair.
The saddest thing I have ever read regarding this game I love so much, was when Vijay came out and said that driving accuracy is not important anymore...that is/should be quite simply wrong!!!!
-
Mike Cirba, JSlonis & MWP,
Is this a sign that the USGA and Merion are correct, that deep penal rough is a valid method for protecting par, especially when combined with lengthened holes and narrowed farirways ?
Mike Cirba,
I thought you were opposed to the concept of protecting par
Pat,
They are right to some extent, but honestly the rough is not as severe as it usually is in many areas. It is still quite high overall, but it is not as lush as I'm used to seeing it.
-
Patrick,
Did you read the following onsite report from Jamie?
The rough was spotty, much thinner than usual in most areas, and a lot of the areas that normally have very heavy rough were thinner and tramped down by the galleries. The greens were very receptive for Merion. I saw full shots making good sized ball marks, and some shots from the rough that held the greens...this is abnormal for Merion. Most of the time you fix a "dent" and can forget about stopping a ball from the rough.
That hardly sounds like the situations you had at Carnoustie a few years back, much less like the last US Ams at Pebble Beach and Oakmont, where the rough was like hay.
I'm fascinated by this, much in the same way I was a few years back when the British Open was played at Lytham at about 6800 yards and Duval won with about -7 or so (if memory serves).
Par, schmar...I just want to know why a little puny course like Merion is kicking ass of guys who bomb it and have 19 year old nerves on the greens.
Don't you want to know, Pat?
-
Although Mike, to be perfectly fair in making a comparison to Lytham, they didn't make any of their Par5s into Par4s. So remove 2 strokes from Par right there, and then probably add .5-1.0 strokes for the psychological challenge that people have about playing a hole called a "Par4" vs. a "Par5".
-
Mike the answer is easy....Merion is just a great golf course..nothing more complicated than that.
-
Although Mike, to be perfectly fair in making a comparison to Lytham, they didn't make any of their Par5s into Par4s. So remove 2 strokes from Par right there, and then probably add .5-1.0 strokes for the psychological challenge that people have about playing a hole called a "Par4" vs. a "Par5".
Brian,
Did Lytham make their 5s into 4s for that Championship? I don't recall that but that could just be my fading memory.
-
Mike,
Ahh....just realized that Merion is normally a Par 70. So this essentially makes it play longer than a 6900yd Lytham with 4 Par5s.
-
JSlonis,
Yes, but the weather rather than the superintendent and the USGA are more responsible for that.
Mike Cirba,
I know why.
It's been my limited experience that the rough at Merion is kept deep and lush, to the point of being highly punitive.
In addition, the fairway lines were never reclaimed from the US Opens, leaving the golf course far narrower than it's earlier or original versions.
When you add increased length to the equation, high scores are the result.
I believe the CARRY on the 18th hole, just to get to the flat rough is about 250 yards. With a little wind in your face it's probably equivalent to a 260-270 carry.
As Jamie said, medal play creates additional pressures and Merion's greens kept fast and firm add to the challenge.
Fans of Merion, and I'm one of them, ask yourself this question:
"How would the members fare on this course ?"
Would it exceed their abilities to play it ?
I recently played The Creek, a wonderful, sporty, challenging golf course.
I would hate the thought of altering The Creek for the benefit of hosting a championship, Amateur or Open.
In it's present form, it's perfect for member and guest alike.
I feel the same way about Merion.
Widen the fairways, get rid of a good number of trees, thin and reduce the height of the rough and let golfers ENJOY playing and challenging the golf course again.
Tournament golf has corrupted club's values.
-
Fans of Merion, and I'm one of them, ask yourself this question:
"How would the members fare on this course ?"
Pat,
When the membership agrees to make changes to their course and also agrees to host USGA events, aren't they essentially saying that they are more concerned with how it plays for the Tournaments than for themselves? Basically they forego their right to care how the course plays for themselves by trying to stay in the championship rota.
-
I too was wondering if there was some glee in the posts yesterday about the high scores at Merion. I hope the high scores are a result of players making poor decisions and not being able to execute difficult shots, in other words frustrated at not being able to overpower a course, but still trying anyway. I haven't played the course and will be anxious to see the height of the rough on TV. I am not a big believer in rough.
Let's hope that, if the scores are a result of the genius of the design, that something can/will be learned by golf organizations and architects.
Please, some of you more knowledgeable about the course, feel free to tell us how the players are making doubles through incorrect thought process. All I have heard is they chop out of the rough to an incorrect spot, hit on the green leaving a tough two putt, and then three jack. That in itself tells me the design might be pretty brilliant, but is there more?
This could be a great learning experience for all of us.
-
Lynn,
I don't like to generalize, but...of the number of high scores I witnessed today, I would say simply, that a large majority were caused by poor swings compounded by even poorer thinking.
Merion is not a course that you can force shots on. Even with poorer ballstriking, if you manage you game and your misses, you can still get around. You'll make alot of bogeys for sure, but you can certainly avoid the others.
When I see the best players play courses like Merion, they are obviously concerned about where to hit the ball, but also quite concerned about where to ABSOLUTELY NOT hit the ball. Unfortunately for them, I saw a lot of guys in the Am that needed to pay more attention to the second part of my above statement.
While many courses penalize bad shots, Merion does so to a much higher degree. With the tough hole locations, and the great contours of the greens, if you compound those swing errors with poor judgement, you then get into big numbers. This is what I love about Merion. There are holes that are just flat out brutes: 3,5,6,14,17,& 18. Then there are the many holes that appear easier and can offer some birdies, but at the same time you can make a double bogey quicker than you can blink.
-
Fans of Merion, and I'm one of them, ask yourself this question:
"How would the members fare on this course ?"
Pat,
When the membership agrees to make changes to their course and also agrees to host USGA events, aren't they essentially saying that they are more concerned with how it plays for the Tournaments than for themselves?
Brian,
Yes ...... sometimes.
In some cases I don't think they have a choice.
There appears to be an element in many clubs that wants to "showcase" their golf course. Sometimes this results in creating devilish conditions or it can be manifested in soliciting and hosting outside tournaments.
Sometimes those that pursue or promote outside tournaments don't describe in detail to their membership what will happen to the golf course, or that it will be irretrievably altered.
Other times the members are told that the golf course will be returned to its original state, when that rarely happens.
And, there is always the promotion of the dollars and what they can do to make capital improvements and/or reduce member costs.
Each club has its own unique perspective on these issues and in many cases a small cadre of members make the decisions for the membership as a whole.
I know that Merion never fully recovered their wide fairways
after a US Open held many years ago. Most members who joined in the last 20 years have no frame of reference and think that the golf course has always been as they know it.[/color]
Basically they forego their right to care how the course plays for themselves by trying to stay in the championship rota.
You're correct, but remember, the membership isn't monolithic, they don't have a single undivided thought process and view of the situation.
I'd venture to say that many members would prefer not hosting a tournament.
While I feel that clubs should donate the use of their golf course as a gesture of returning something to the game, I'm not a fan of making dramatic changes in playing conditions or the architecture that won't be undone when the tournament is over.
As I said earlier, I think Tournament Golf has corrupted the game.[/color]
-
With the issue of member play been raised, I was under the impression that the course does not vary that much day in day out from what you are seeing this week.
Scott Nye, the pro at Merion has always told me that the course set up for member play is really not that different, except for maybe the pin placements.
Having not played there at any other time but in tournaments I cannot say, but that was my belief.
-
MWP,
Then Scott is unfamiliar with the configuration of the golf course prior to A US Open.
-
patrick
That would certainly make sense, as I do not believe he has been there that long.
I certainly see your point about pre US Open and post, so what you are saying is that basically the current fairway widths are the result of when the Open was last played there.
Is that correct?
-
They are projecting the cut for matchplay at +7 - that is to say, +7 makes the playoff, +8 does not.
I can't remember what it was at Oakmont, but I think it was similar. The second course then was Pgh Field Club.
And, Mike C, I continue to resent your misrepresentation of the '03 Am. I was there every day. I have seen tougher rough. I have seen narrower fairways. I have never seen a course presently as tough but as fair as Oakmont that year. :) Seriously, the rough was not hay, as you describe it. It was penal, but it was possible to hit out of it. I personally stood next to more than a couple players as they hit out of the rough, and very few that I personally witnessed just hacked it out. They usually made a go at the green. Some got it there, some didn't, but few just hacked it out, which is what hay-like rough implies to me. Oakmont defended itself with the best set of greens imaginable, not hay life rough bordering overly narrow fairways. I'd imagine Merion's defenses are much the same.
-
Merion must be breathing a huge sigh of collective relief after Keven Simard came slightly back down to earth after a scorching front nine to finish at -1, 69.
Interestingly, the hole that did him in was a triple on #12.
Mike,
He 5-putted #12!!!
TK
-
With the playoff for the final match play spots will taking place early tomorrow, Canadians have the potential to represent 7 of the 64 spots ;D. The medalist, Lepp will likely contend right until the end, definitely the best amateur in Canada.
TK
-
Merion must be breathing a huge sigh of collective relief after Keven Simard came slightly back down to earth after a scorching front nine to finish at -1, 69.
Interestingly, the hole that did him in was a triple on #12.
Mike,
He 5-putted #12!!!
Mike Cirba,
Doesn't that tell you everything you need to know ?[/color]
-
Thank God I don't need to depend for accurate information on some of the opinions on this website who haven't even seen Merion this week. If I did I'd think they were talking about some other golf course. Merion is just about right on the money.
The rough? It's great. Hit it out there and you could get a good lie or you could get fairly screwed----it's particularly inconsistent, thank God, which is the way proper rough should be.
The greens are just about perfect for speed and firmness---actually the USGA apparently called for a bit of toning down. If you hit a really good shot you can get some check and control and if you don't hit a good shot you probably won't.
It's wonderful to see a truly great golf course and golf architecture set-up just about ideally for a national championship like the United States Amateur.
Tomorrow starts match play and I just can't imagine a better and more interesting match play golf course than Merion the way it is now and will be this week.
Really good shots and good concentration and good strategic choices are rewarded out there---marginal ones need some concentration to recover properly and thoughtlessness or poor execution gets compounded on a course like Merion East---that's why we love and respect the golf course so much around here. There's nothing unusual about that this week----that's the way Merion East is, and always has been. That's the way the golf course is supposed to be. Everyone around here including the membership knows and understands that---they always have.
The decision to shut down early a few weeks ago now looks like a very wise one. Congratulations to Merion and super Matt Shaeffer and his great crew----you've all done a great job bringing the course into this amateur just about as good as it can get right through some truly stressful times recently.
Qualifying came in exactly as I expected----146-147. Right around dark the cut went from 147 into 146 by about 2-3 players. And just as I expected, I didn't think there'd be quite 64 who could shoot 74 or better at Merion.
It's interesting how that falls right around Merion's course rating which probably should be what "scratch" US Amateur caliber players should shoot on a course like that.
-
Merion must be breathing a huge sigh of collective relief after Keven Simard came slightly back down to earth after a scorching front nine to finish at -1, 69.
Interestingly, the hole that did him in was a triple on #12.
Mike,
He 5-putted #12!!!
Mike Cirba,
Doesn't that tell you everything you need to know ?[/color]
Pat,
The only thing that it tells you is that he hit 4 BAD putts. ;) The hole location on #12 was back right. It was not in that bad of a position. The greens were quick, but not overdone.
Keven Fortin Simard's quote was:
"The five-putt from within 40 feet was a case of not paying enough attention to the speed and too much attention to the line. So after the first putt came up 8 feet short, Fortin-Simard would bomb his second 5 feet past. When the third lipped out, he was left with another 5-footer coming back, which he missed before tapping in for a seven.
"I just stayed focused, I didn’t get mad or anything. Those things happen," said Fortin-Simard. "I’m still happy with the day in general."
-
TEP ... As you said, there's golf and then there's tournament golf...
I always thought it was Bobby Jones who said that.
Or Max Behr.
-
They are projecting the cut for matchplay at +7 - that is to say, +7 makes the playoff, +8 does not.
I can't remember what it was at Oakmont, but I think it was similar. The second course then was Pgh Field Club.
And, Mike C, I continue to resent your misrepresentation of the '03 Am. I was there every day. I have seen tougher rough. I have seen narrower fairways. I have never seen a course presently as tough but as fair as Oakmont that year. :) Seriously, the rough was not hay, as you describe it. It was penal, but it was possible to hit out of it. I personally stood next to more than a couple players as they hit out of the rough, and very few that I personally witnessed just hacked it out. They usually made a go at the green. Some got it there, some didn't, but few just hacked it out, which is what hay-like rough implies to me. Oakmont defended itself with the best set of greens imaginable, not hay life rough bordering overly narrow fairways. I'd imagine Merion's defenses are much the same.
George,
My apologies. Knowing you personally, if I have you "resent"ing something I've said, then I have clearly misrepresented my case.
I certainly didn't mean to cast any aspersions on Oakmont but perhaps I've been over-using the example as a foil to match the contention of some on here who infer that a tough (re: "unfair") setup is needed because of architectural deficiencies, whether in the case of Baltusrol a few weeks back, or Merion this week.
I'm certain that having been there, you're correct in your assessment of the rough at Oakmont not being "hay", but instead, tough but playable. I think rough should be an "iffy" and not purely penal proposition and it sounds as though it was in 03, and from first hand accounts, that's what it sounds like it is this week at Merion, as well.
Clearly some of us purists would love to see wider fairways and less of an emphasis on rough at the courses we love, but at Championship level golf, an emphasis on accuracy over options seems to be unavoidable, particularly given the distance most top modern players can achieve.
By the way, you should know that I love Oakmont. I've never played it but had the pleasure of attending the Saturday and Sunday rounds of the US Open back in 1983 and you're right...there is way more there from an architectural standpoint than just the "penal" reputation of scads of bunkers, high rough, and blazing greens. The use of topography on that course in the routing is sensational, as is the variety of hole presentations. I'm sure the recent tree removals have only enhanced the property and golf course.
Personally, I think we're extremely fortunate to have two courses in Pennsylvania, each about 100 years old, both under 7000 yards (although I believe recent tee additions might have stretched Oakmont beyond that), that can still challenge top players in exciting and original ways. Frankly, I'm amazed at how well Merion held up this week and to know that the scoring average was as high as a fearsome test as Oakmont says something about the degree of challenge at both courses.
-
In today's Philadelphia Inquirer:
Comments from Bob Tway, whose 16 year old son Kevin, the Junior Am champ, failed to qualify:
"This place is unbelievable. A golf course this good deserves another Open"
"It doesn't matter what the winning score is...It's an Open course."
-
I hope this isn't interpreted as gloating, but instead as wonderment.
Of 311 rounds played at Merion, only 4 players broke par, each shooting a -1 69. The stroke avg. on day one was about 78.2.
Does anyone know what the stroke average was on day two? My sense if that it was similar.
I have not heard a single account by any contestant, or in-person observer use the words "unfair", or "goofy", or "over the top" to describe the setup. In fact, everyone said just the opposite, including some who ventured that Merion on a day to day basis might be firmer and faster and rougher than was possible given the weather of late.
So, given the conventional wisdom that Merion is a course passed by time and technology, how many here can honestly say that they weren't surprised by the challenge provided this week?
If someone had told you that it would play a little soft (Jamie mentioned sizeable ball marks and balls holding greens from the rough), and that the rough would not be overly penal, how many would have believed -1 by four of 311 contestants would have been the low medal scores?
-
Mike -
I was kidding using the word resent, but I did think it was necessary to delve into the issue of the rough.
Wish I were there at Merion to see the play first hand.
-
Are some on here saying that Merion East should be set-up for the US Amateur Championship just like any weekend for member play?
If so, I sure wouldn't agree with that. Frankly, knowing Merion East for years the set-up probably isn't all that much different anyway. The greens are probably a little faster, the pins are probably a bit more challenging etc. I can certainly tell you all that the rough is nowhere near as penal right now for the US Amateur as it was about a year ago for the membership. The membership did not like all that high fescue rough though and the club got maintenance to cut it down significantly which is the way it is right now.
All the US amateur contestants are playing this week is the new tips to a course set-up slightly more challenging due to pin positions and perhaps a bit more speed on the greens this week---but not much more speed than normal play. The USGA itself apparently told the club they do not want to take the course set-up near the edge in this sense of producing a set-up that is near "over the top".
But again, if some on here are saying the course should be set-up exatly like any weekend, I think that's ridiculous---this is the United States Amateur, folks, with many of the best amateurs in the world here this week. The course should be set-up to offer them the commensurate challenge that the architecture of Merion East is all about for their considerable skills.
Is there and was there significant "field separation" in the sense of scoring this week? There sure was. Why would anyone want it otherwise? That's precisely what a great golf course with great architecture like Merion is all about. Through qualifying of 312 golfers and through the week of match play and on to the finals on Sunday it will identify the best golfers and the golfer who is playing the best and most intelligent golf this week.
Did Philly C.C. play a few strokes easier for the qualifiers this week? It sure did but that's just the difference in the two courses. It's always been that way---and this week is no different.
-
"Fans of Merion, and I'm one of them, ask yourself this question:
"How would the members fare on this course ?"
Pat:
Did you ask that question?
If so the answer is the members of Merion wouldn't fare much different on the course this week and then do the rest of the time. Of course they'd fare much different this week if they were all asked to play the new tip tees as the US Amateur contestents are but not that many members play them anyway. But if they did they wouldn't fare much different this week than any other time.
-
Dane Burkhart, the young man that shot 59 in the Palmetto Amateur, has won his first round match. He shot 69 yesterday at Merion.
-
Guys are winning 4 and 3, and they are 1 or 2 over! World´s best am´s are not tearing apart the course. Just the opposite I would say so far.
-
george zahringer, one of the best mid am's-sen am's in the country, certainly not a young college kid,
shot 78 today and WON his match 1 up.
i was there yesterday, the course is defintily all these guys can handle.
jason
-
george zahringer, one of the best mid am's-sen am's in the country, certainly not a young college kid,
shot 78 today and WON his match 1 up.
i was there yesterday, the course is defintily all these guys can handle.
jason
Jason,
Zaringer was +6 for 18 holes. Amazingly, his opponent shot 5 under on the front nine and lost the match in 19 holes. His opponent was +2 for 18 holes. This match is a perfect example of why Match Play drives me nuts. ;D
-
Jamie - I couldn't believe you so I had to look, but you were right. Zahringer didn't make a birdie on the back side and won four holes!!
Poor Chandler Cocco shot 31-42, then parred the first and got beat. Wow!
-
Anyone know how Kyle Riefers is doing? I know he is playing the medalist, but he is a Walker Cup member so I know he is pretty good. Anyway, he is the son of a friend of mine.
-
Was two up through about 7, but is now even with four to play.
http://www.usamateur.org/scoring/matlst1.htm
-
Jim,
All the match scores can be found here: http://www.usamateur.org/scoring/matlst1.htm
Kyle is just one of two Wake Forest golfers (also Webb Simpson) that are doing the Deacs proud this week!! Throw in Sean Moore winning the North & South and it looks like WFU should be very strong in 2005-2006.
-
Thanks Brian, all square thru 14. His mom is a friend of mine and an excellent player as well. I know where he gets his golf genes.
-
My freind Austin Eaton won is 1st round match 2&1.
Interestingly enough, they didn't show his match at all on TV until his last 2 foot putt to win. Austin is the 5th seed for match play and the commentator mentioned that his victory was an upset over the College All-Amer. Pablo Martin. Like Rodney Dangerfield....the Mid-Am's get "No Respect...No Respect!" ;D
-
I'm interested in the play of the bunkers. They appear from TV to be cavernous pits with jagged edges. Are any of them difficult to climb into or out of? The style of those I can see on television looks familiar to me. (I am well aware of the the mammoth threads a few years ago, and am not looking to start another one, but I am curious about the depth and construction of the bunkers, as well as ingress and egress). Thanks.
Jeff Goldman
-
Jeff,
Many of the bunkers are quite deep, and there certainly are a few that are difficult to step in and out of.
As far as the playablity...they look like they're playing great. I saw a lot of quality shots from the bunkers yesterday. If you have a bunker shot to a hole location that is slightly uphill, then you can get the ball close. If you happen to be in the many bunkers that leave you with a downhill or sidehill recovery shot, you are in deep trouble.
With the cooler weather, it appears as if the greens are firming up nicely. :o Let the games begin!
-
Anyone know how Kyle Riefers is doing? I know he is playing the medalist, but he is a Walker Cup member so I know he is pretty good. Anyway, he is the son of a friend of mine.
Jim,
Kyle just birdied 17 to go 1 UP!! James Lepp is no slouch, besides being the medalist and 2005 NCAA Champion, he has won an event on the Canadian Tour (by 6 shots), the Pacific Coast Amateur, 2 Canadian Juniors and 3 British Columbia Amateurs. He certainly knows how to win, but has never fared tremendously well in the Canadian Amateur (also match play). Perhaps medal play is his forte.
TK
-
James Lepp is a Canadian legend in some regards a few summers back, he played ten rounds in 3 different tournaments and compiled a total of 56 under par. He survived his scare today. He has an ability to make birdies at will it seems. I saw him shoot 63 at Caves Valley to force a playoff and win the NCAA title. Survive and advance, is what he did today. Getting a scare early on can help you get things figured out real fast.
-
JSlonis,
Very good and great amateurs playing in the USGA Amateur don't forget about speed, especially on a sloped green.
I can see three putts, a once in a blue moon four putt, but, a five putt ? Four putting from 8 feet ?
That's more a reflection on the golf course and the conditions than the players.
TEPaul,
I saw wedges ricocheting off greens like they were Kevlar
-
Lepp beat Reifers in an exciting back nine match. Good to great shots boths ways and mistakes too but not on the same hole.
Lepp won the match on the 19th with an excellent tee to green set up strategic birdie.
In my opinion, if Lepp keeps playing the way he has been through qualifying and today he is the man to beat in the US Amateur.
I was out there much of the day today with Mark Rowlinson (from England) and Mark paid Lepp a fine European golf compliment---he said on the 18th hole--"That man does not "hang about""----meaning Lepp is one of the fastest players you will find.
I must also say that on #17 Reifers hit a remarkable tee shot (into a significant wind he hit an iron (really not enough club for him). He hit it about two feet from 240 yards using the topography perfectly).
-
Lepp did not advance to the match play portion of the Canadian Amateur last week, perhaps that is fuelling the fire for his stellar play.
TK
-
"TEPaul,
I saw wedges ricocheting off greens like they were Kevlar."
Well then Pat I guess you saw some wedge shots from players who just don't have the talent that medalist James Lepp has. I saw him hit a number of wedges that had wonderful control on the greens, probably the finest of them all his wedge shot on the 19th hole. The pin was about five steps from the right bunker. Lepp took it just past hole high between the bunker and pin, checked it, and sucked it back slightly and to the left about two feet right underneath the pin to birdie and win the overtime match.
In my opinion, Merion is set-up and playing just about perfect right now---Matt Shaeffer has nailed the IMM for a US Amateur.
-
I'm rooting for Ryan Yip. I've been there...... :'(
-
"JSlonis,
Very good and great amateurs playing in the USGA Amateur don't forget about speed, especially on a sloped green.
I can see three putts, a once in a blue moon four putt, but, a five putt ? Four putting from 8 feet ?
That's more a reflection on the golf course and the conditions than the players."
Pat:
Holes #5, 12 and 15 are all very dangerous to putt and they've been that way for years. The competitors in the US Am should and obviously do know that by now. You certainly could five putt a hole like #12 if you lose your concentration. If you leave an approach above that hole or hole high on either side you're chances of three putting are pretty good. But there's a definite right way to play that hole---eg get the ball directly under the hole but not too far under it (or it will come off the green). James Lepp left his approach directly under the hole about 20 feet yesterday and ran it right in for birdie. To get his approach directly under yesterday's hole took a controlled wedge that flirted with the excellent diagonal of the right green side bunker.
One could certainly say, as you did, that Fortin Simard's five putt on #12 shows what's wrong with the course or that hole but Lepp yesterday showed why the hole is so brilliant.
Some of the younger players in the tournament are saying the young talent to really watch is 18 year old Bryan Harman. I hope I see him today. Yesterday James Lepp sure was an impressive shot-maker in spots.
-
TEPaul,
Did that young golfer from Nebraska who lost in the finals of the Nebraska State Amateur at Wild Horse make it to the tournament, and if so, did you chat with him ?
What would you say is the percentage of irons hit off of the tees ?
Shouldn't # 4 be widened as well ?
-
TEPaul -
Brian Harman is indeed a talent to watch. I saw him play a few holes in the USGA Junior at the Olympic Club last summer. Although he lost in the quarter-finals (I think), he was the class of the field, as he was medalist by at least 5 shots (could have been more). There were 5 sub-par rounds on the Lake Course in the qualifying and he shot 2 of them.
He is rather small, sort of Corey Pavin-sized. It will be interesting to see how good a golfer he becomes.
DT
-
Nice story about fellow competitor Saltman switching to caddy for Oliver Fisher. How good is he, for a 16 yr old?!
http://www.usamateur.org/news/wc_williams_wed.html
-
Keith how good is Oliver Fisher at 16?
I’m sure many on this site have seen prodigies like this before who didn’t fulfill their talent but the signs for Oliver are as good as they can be.
Locally there’s been a real buzz about him since he came third in the Essex county championship at the age of 14. He was lucky to compete at that level against a couple of kids who were a bit older and made it into the England set up (Lloyd Kennedy and Tommy Hunter). Lat year at 15 he won the county championships as the youngest winner taking the record previously held by Michael Bonallack. He also won the Lagonda trophy one of the most prestigious GB&I amateur cups.
This year he’s had strong showings in a couple of biggies – lost in the semi final of the British Amateur to the eventual winner. At the Walker Cup he played one of the best US players in the singles and got a win and a draw, at 16 he was the youngest ever competitor. (True he lost both his doubles but word from the camp is that his partner was having a crises of confidence, with Peter McAvoy having to ask other coaches to look at his swing, as David Ledbetter didn’t show or send a deputy.)
That bit on the US amateur site about him being like the big easy is b********, and I hope lazy journalist's don’t just copy that. He has a compact swing (think Luke Donald) and is a really straight hitter (not the longest or shortest hitter) with a strong short game – should suit Merion. For a 16 year old it’s his temperament and character that really impresses. He’s a really calm character who takes things as they come (maybe a bit like Ells). He’s a really likeable kid, can hold a conversation but is quietly self assured – pretty cool for 16 year with all that attention.
Next time there’s a thread about Michelle Wie I’ll post what I know about the pressure these guys are under with the attention they generate. Faldo, Nike, Harman, EGU etc. all have his number and are making him big promises.
Oliver has just left school and considers he’s too young to go to college in the states (yet). He said before the walker cup he wanted to play in at least the next two, but now he’ll really be getting really serious offers. Today I think it’s the oldest vs. the youngest and it won’t be his temperament that lets him down. He’s a great lad and I really hope he continues developing because he has the potential to go all the way. As I said I’ve never been this close to a teenage phenom before so you just have to conclude it’s going to be really interesting seeing how it pans out.
Last year I read an article said the current generation would never really be able to get to Tiger because in their heads they were already beaten and that we needed to look to the next generation for players who can take him on…………..
-
As Ran hasn’t profiled Merion does anyone know of any links to photo’s of the course?
-
tony
try www.archgolf.net
some very good pictures here including Merion
TEPaul & Tepper
I played with Brian Harman last week and he is a very impressive player. the first thing that strikes you is his size. Not a very long player but he plays with precision. Someone asked me about his short game and I could not remember him missing any greens and hitting any chips or pitchs. he was seeing the course for the first time and seemed to know where to hit the ball on every hole.
-
tony
try www.archgolf.net
some very good pictures here including Merion
TEPaul & Tepper
I played with Brian Harman last week and he is a very impressive player. the first thing that strikes you is his size. Not a very long player but he plays with precision. Someone asked me about his short game and I could not remember him missing any greens and hitting any chips or pitchs. he was seeing the course for the first time and seemed to know where to hit the ball on every hole.
RE, can´t get the link to work.
-
Glad I'm not the only one, my technological ineptitude has been highlighted on here before!
-
Sorry. The link is
http://www.golfarch.com/Merion/
-
Tom Paul
It seemed awfully difficult to stop a ball on the 18th Green. Is the IMM a little off here?
-
How much more difficult is Merion playing this week due to the recently added length. Obviously length isn't the issue there at 6800 yards but how much different would the scores have been at the old yardage ?(If this has been addressed before, I apologize)
-
One more question,
When they last played the Open at Merion in '81, did they use the baskets, or did the USGA put in flags? The baskets are so freakin cool..
-
The baskets, were most certainly used.
-
Incidentally, how great is it that a guy still in it is named "Yip."
-
George Zahringer is 2 up through 9 in the 3rd round. I think he has to be the story of the tournament so far.
I watched Zahringer play a couple of years ago at Wilmington during the mid-am and he is nothing but a gentleman. You can't help but root for him.
I think he's at least 52 now and for him to be doing what hes doing against these young guys is incredible.
If he gets through this day of 36 holes he could have a real shot.
Jason
-
Mr. Yip beat Harmon with a bogey on 18. Ouch.....
-
George Zahringer is 2 up through 9 in the 3rd round. I think he has to be the story of the tournament so far.
What happened? He was 3 up through 11 and lost. I see he bogeyed 4 of the last 6 including a bogey on 18 to lose the match.
-
George Zahringer is 2 up through 9 in the 3rd round. I think he has to be the story of the tournament so far.
What happened? He was 3 up through 11 and lost. I see he bogeyed 4 of the last 6 including a bogey on 18 to lose the match.
Maybe he got tired. As a contemporary of Mr. Zahringer, I could see that happening in the second match he played today. :'(
-
I am nearly certain the baskets were not used in 1971 though they were used in every other major championship at Merion.
-
Did anyone follow the Zahringer match -- I understand he was 3-up with seven to play and lost?
Was it his own inferior play or the better play of his opponent?
Any specific info from those who have seen the match is appreciated.
Thanks ...
-
Gotta root for fellow Penn Stater Mark Leon... ;D
WE ARE...
-
Did anyone follow the Zahringer match -- I understand he was 3-up with seven to play and lost?
Was it his own inferior play or the better play of his opponent?
Any specific info from those who have seen the match is appreciated.
Thanks ...
Matt,
I only watched the television coverage, so I didn't see every shot, but I think George would agree that his own play was mostly to blame for his loss.
He doubled #12, then chili-dipped a pitch shot on #14, bogeyed #15 (I didn't see it), missed a very short par putt on #16, and then bogeyed #18 (I didn't see that one either).
His opponent, J.C. Deacon, did hit good shots down the stretch, and his 10-12 foot par putt on #17 was big, but bottom line is that he was 3 down with 7 to go, played the final 7 in +2, and still won the match.
-
Great to see Austin Eaton still around. It's now seven young guys (Molinari at 24 is the oldest of them) and Austin.
Good quote yesterday from him (from the USGA website):
"I don’t know how I fit in," said Eaton, who is in the house construction business with his father. "This is uncharted territory for me. Normally, I’m used to playing against guys with jobs."
-
Bill Greenwood, the super Greens Chairman at Merion (what a great job they have done and are doing!) corrected me offline. The baskets were not used for the 1950 U.S. Open but were used before that and thereafter.
-
I spent the afternoon at Merion. The course is significantly easier than it would be for a US Open. The rough is not a significant factor. In many places is is either burndt out or trampled from spectators. In addition Tom Meeks told the superentendant to cut the rough because he was concerned about lost balls holding up play for the qualifying rounds (told to me by a former Merion president).
During the previous two opens (which I attended) the rough was a significant factor. Like most US Opens it was 4 inches . However Merion rough is usually very thick. I participated in redoing Merions slope rating in early July and a ball hit into the rough would nestle down and be very difficult to hit. Weather in Philadelphia in June is much different than in late August. Merion will be able to maintain its rough at that time and the course will play several strokes harder.
-
In my opinion, the course has certainly answered the call. A great deal of credit need be given to the greens crew and committee because this has been a summer from hell in Philadelphia as far as conditioning goes (not that we need to revisit any of those threads).
For the best players in the world there are nine holes (#'s 3, 5, 6, 9, 12, 14, 15, 17 and 18) they will have to play like hell to par and another five or six they will have to be sharp on and they might have a chance at birdie. #'s 1, 2 and 13 are the only ones I see as "breather" holes. Obviously bogeys are possible, but highly unlikely from US Open players.
The new tees are really spectacular from a playability perspective. They make the long hard holes much longer and exponentially more difficult. I've not seen a par on #5 yet through about 20 players.
-
Incidently I followed the Yip-Harmon match. Mr. Yip carried his own bag for 36 holes today. While the weather was perfect, Merion is a hilly course.
Harmon was one up going into 15. His approach shot hit the right side of the green and bounced 5 feet in the air landing at the back of the green He then 3 putted to lose the hole.
On 16 both players hit what look like excellant 2nd shots but bounced over the green. Yip just in the rough (nestled down and Harmon on the back of the fringe. Both tokk bogies.
On 17 both hit great tee shots (Harmon about 10 feet) and both ended with pars. On 18 neither player played well. Yip had a bogey and won with Harmon still needing a 4 footer for 6.A sorry ending to a fine match.
-
Matt,
I followed the Zahringer/Deacon match for the last 9 holes. He did bogey 4 of the last 6 but Deacon could easily have done the same. He didn't - he hit some terrific shots - and won. Both bogeyed 15 but Deacon was very lucky - his drive was saved from going on the road to the left by hitting one of the boundary posts. Although he had to adjust his swing to avoid the post on his second shot, he managed to get the ball near the green, pitched and two-putted. At 16, I was almost certain Zahringer would be dormy 2 but he 3-putted from about 30 feet. Deacon sprayed his tee shot well to the right and could have had an impossible lie. He played to the right of the green behind the spectators, pitched to about 10 feet and made the putt. At 17, Zahringer bellied a wedge from just off the green nearly into the hole while Deacon hit a long bunker shot to about 15 feet and again made a putt. On 18, Deacon's pitched from the front left to about 6 feet while Zahringer pitched to about 12. Deacon made his putt and won.
-
I took a few pictures while following Zahringer and Deacon. I've put them in b/w - I like the way they look. The course was in all its splendor - firm greens and fairways and although there were some brown patches, I don't think playability was an issue anywhere.
The approach to 11.
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7zuyh/USAm2005/DSCN2523.jpg)
Zahringer from the middle of the fairway on 12.
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7zuyh/USAm2005/DSCN2524.jpg)
Zahringer from the bunker on 12. Deacon also played from the bunker but hit a much better shot. Zahringer 3 putted from above the hole.
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7zuyh/USAm2005/DSCN2525.jpg)
#13
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7zuyh/USAm2005/DSCN2526.jpg)
#17
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7zuyh/USAm2005/DSCN2528.jpg)
Deacon in the bunker on #17
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7zuyh/USAm2005/DSCN2529.jpg)
-
We all recall the outrage expressed by many when the bunkers were redone a few years ago. The tv commentators were very complimentary of the "restored" bunkers. Are they off base or was the earlier concerns premature? I haven't read this entire thread, but I didn't see any comment on the bunkers from those at the tournament, or from any of the critics of the re-do.
-
I am nearly certain the baskets were not used in 1971 though they were used in every other major championship at Merion.
Wayne,
I hate to disagree with you, but it was the 1971 US Open @ Merion where my late grandfather sat me down on the couch and told me to watch this event with him, "that this was one of the great courses in the world....."
My response to him was, "Grandpa, if a guy gets it in that basket, is it a hole in one?"
Now I could be wrong, and maybe it was the 66' Amateur event, but I'm quite sure it was the 71' US Open.
-
We all recall the outrage expressed by many when the bunkers were redone a few years ago. The tv commentators were very complimentary of the "restored" bunkers. Are they off base or was the earlier concerns premature? I haven't read this entire thread, but I didn't see any comment on the bunkers from those at the tournament, or from any of the critics of the re-do.
Jim,
IMHO, the bunkers are too deep and too cleanly maintained for my tastes. Merion to my eye, was always a rough-at-the-edges looking and playing golf course. Not anymore. It sort of looks like its going in the same direction as Pine Valley. I like it when there is sand spilling out everywhere as if the sea and wind moved it and blew it out of seaside looking blowouts. The grass around all of the bunkers looks nothing like the course I've grown to love over the years. Also, the basins of the bunkers themselves don't seem to follow the contours, shifts and turns of the edges. It's just a parabola that funnels the ball away from the edges which yields way too many fair lies for a hazard. I'm sure the depth makes up for it, but they aren't the Great White Faces that were nutured by Richie Valentine w/Bill Kittleman as his assistant.
I like those bunkers a lot better--They were legendary. I'm sure Joe Logan will say otherwise.
Given the conditions of Philly this year, the Super deserves the Red Badge of Courage and the Medal of Honor. The course seems to be playing as we like it---fast & firm.
The only reason why I haven't posted on Merion is because this is really the first time I've even looked at this post, let alone the majority of the rest of them. This is also the last thing I'm saying on this thread regarding the changes. I would rather Merion enjoy its time in the spotlight. It's one of my favorite courses in the Sport of Golf and deserves the high praise for what Hugh Willson, Bill Flynn, Joe Valentine and a supporting cast of thousands (some of them greasy Eyetalians, Jim.) that grew-up with it in Golfing Knowledge.
(thanks for letting me steal that quote Capt. Geo. Thomas)
-
Tommy,
Giving the super a "Red Badge of Courage" would imply that he needs to be shot...
:P
-
Tommy,
Great point about the Red Badge of Courage. The Philly region had an absolutely horrible year for golf courses. First a wet spring, followed by 4-5 weeks of no-rain, followed by a long period of extreme heat and humidity.
The fact that Merion looks so good while other courses like Aronimink are plaing temporary greens speaks volumes to their maintenance procedures and infrastrusture.
Fortunately, the last week has brought low dewpoints and chilly nights. Finally, we're seeing signs of bentgrass regrowth.
-
Merion continues to baffle the world´s best amateurs...Deacon shot 41 on the front, and was 3 up. His opponent shot 43.
-
Kyle,
Correct me if I'm wrong here, it's been a great many years since I read Stephen Foster's "The Red Badge of Courage" but wasn't the actual meaning was from the wounds from war?
If so, then given what I've seen in this year--exactly what Superintendents go through day to day, it most definitely the Red Badge of Courage. Most especially when dealing with the politics of the USGA, as well as rambuncticious green committee members.
Also, given the weather of the Philly area the last few months which can be best considered a war with Mother Nature, it certainly has to be considered a war which Matt Schaffer seems to be winning. I'm sure he has the wounds to prove it.
-
Many of the fairways of Merion have little patches and splotches of browning out that give the fairways and some of the greens a mottled look. Some of the young players mentioned they think that's "poor condition" but in fact it's not at all, in my opinion. All the fairways are very tight and the greens are fast and putting well. The degree of firmness is also just about ideal. Some who have to do with the club would like to see the greens a bit firmer but the USGA has asked the club to keep firmness reasonable. Balls will check some and even move back slightly after the second or third bounce if hit crisply from the fairway. If hit from the rough that's not really possible. This is just about ideal strategically, in my opinion. The course is remarkably close to the way most everyone hoped it would be. No question at all that the weather in the last 4-5 days was the key---finally!
-
In the semis tomorrow Dillion Dougherty (22) of California plays J.C. Deacon (22) of Canada at 9am and Austin Eaton (36) of New Hampshire plays Edoardo Molinari (24) an engineering student who lives in Italy. Two Americans, a Canadian and an Italian. This looks like it's winding down to an interesting semi-International wrap up.
I believe the last Canadian to win the US Amateur was Gary Cowan who won two US Amateurs quite close together during the relatively brief stroke play era of the US Amateur. Cowan won at the Wilmington C.C. and Merion. I don't know that an Italian resident has ever won the US Amateur.
Austin Eaton is the current US Mid-Am champion and apparently a close friend of our GOLFCLUBATLAS.com contributor Jamie Slonis.
-
Jim Lewis asked;
"We all recall the outrage expressed by many when the bunkers were redone a few years ago. The tv commentators were very complimentary of the "restored" bunkers. Are they off base or was the earlier concerns premature? I haven't read this entire thread, but I didn't see any comment on the bunkers from those at the tournament, or from any of the critics of the re-do.
Jim:
All of that is an interesting story, in my opinion.
Many on this website (and others) were fiercely critical of the bunkers of Merion after their recent redo. Many on this website were fiercely critical of the club, the contractor (Macdonald & Co) and the architect (Fazio).
Was that criticism warranted or premature? Perhaps it was premature simply because the look of the bunkers before they had the time to grass in looked entirely different than they do now. Back then the sodded grass surrounds were short and the bunkers really did have a "puffy and upholstered" look because of that. Do the grass surrounds have that "puffy and upholstered" look now? Not at all. Today the grass surrounds actually look like they could have been that way for a hundred years.
However, and it probably is a large HOWEVER, that ultral rugged grassy look that Merion's bunker have now (which is actually pretty neat looking for bunkers) just happens to look nothing like the grass surrounds that Merion East has ever had in it's 90+ year history.
Were some on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com premature in criticizing the look of the Merion bunkers because they hadn't had the chance to grow in? I think so, and I feel I was one of them. It never really occured to me how rugged and natural their grass surrounds would look in a few years.
But for some who continue to criticize Merion's bunker project I guess that fact does not get around the issue that they look very little like the bunkers of Merion East ever looked before.
Did the bunkers of Merion East ever look better than these bunkers? That's an interesting question. In my opinion, they probablynever did, except during that time in the 1920s and 1930s when they had those lacy grass edges. The way the Merion bunkers used to look in more modern times was really very little different than a lot of bunkers around here at other courses. The only real issue was those old bunkers, even though they looked a good deal like many of the bunkers around here at other courses, were Merion's----and I guess that alone made them very special somehow. Did they need a ton of work before the recent bunker project? They need work desperately before the recent bunker project---particularly sanding and drainage which had basically totally failed.
They most certainly did. The real issue was could they, or should they have just fixed those old grass bunker surrounds vs totally rebuilding and regrassing them?
-
TEPaul,
I was one of those who stated that time would improve their look.
My concern was the ability to maintain the hangover nature of the fronting earthworks, and the difficulty in entering and exiting the bathtub like bunkers.
You and I also observed the problems with the Bunker-Wol in select bunkers.
As I have stated many times, "looks" aren't everything.
It's substance, not form that matters.
-
TE Paul,
Just for this post, make like no Merion members what-so-ever will be payiing attention to this thread and give us the honest truth.
Pat, If I'm not correct, could TE's change of heart be classified as a flip-flop? If so, I think you were in fact right about him all along! ;D
Tom, Do you actually think the grass around the bunkers; the Hugo "Puffy" Wilson tuck n' roll poof's which on some holes looks as if they're getting ready to collapse if someone should step on the edge of them as well as the shape of those bunker "bowls" are in character with the Merion-East legacy which was left to our generation?
I doubt you will be able to give an honest answer which you know is right. I really do, and don't get me wrong the course is in very decent looking shape with all things considered, but for all of the trouble they had there you would think at least someone would be willing to step up and say "We made some mistakes....."
But that would be dreaming.
-
This is also the last thing I'm saying on this thread regarding the changes.
I guess I lied!
-
Kyle,
Correct me if I'm wrong here, it's been a great many years since I read Stephen Foster's "The Red Badge of Courage" but wasn't the actual meaning was from the wounds from war?
If so, then given what I've seen in this year--exactly what Superintendents go through day to day, it most definitely the Red Badge of Courage. Most especially when dealing with the politics of the USGA, as well as rambuncticious green committee members.
Also, given the weather of the Philly area the last few months which can be best considered a war with Mother Nature, it certainly has to be considered a war which Matt Schaffer seems to be winning. I'm sure he has the wounds to prove it.
Tommy,
You are right, however, the red badge WAS the wound. So if you are giving the super the red badge of courage, wouldn't you be inflicting the wound? Now, I am sure there are a few you want to do that to, but I don't think it applies here. ;)
As far as I know, every super in the Philly area already has several. :P
-
Kyle,
Yes, this would be correct. Infliction wasn't the point of course, it was the right to wear the wound proudly and with honor..... ;)
-
By the way Tomas,
The way that course looks... he deserves the CMOH.
-
From post #183;
"Jim Lewis asked;
"We all recall the outrage expressed by many when the bunkers were redone a few years ago. The tv commentators were very complimentary of the "restored" bunkers. Are they off base or was the earlier concerns premature? I haven't read this entire thread, but I didn't see any comment on the bunkers from those at the tournament, or from any of the critics of the re-do.
Jim:
All of that is an interesting story, in my opinion.
Many on this website (and others) were fiercely critical of the bunkers of Merion after their recent redo. Many on this website were fiercely critical of the club, the contractor (Macdonald & Co) and the architect (Fazio).
Was that criticism warranted or premature? Perhaps it was premature simply because the look of the bunkers before they had the time to grass in looked entirely different than they do now. Back then the sodded grass surrounds were short and the bunkers really did have a "puffy and upholstered" look because of that. Do the grass surrounds have that "puffy and upholstered" look now? Not at all. Today the grass surrounds actually look like they could have been that way for a hundred years.
However, and it probably is a large HOWEVER, that ultral rugged grassy look that Merion's bunker have now (which is actually pretty neat looking for bunkers) just happens to look nothing like the grass surrounds that Merion East has ever had in it's 90+ year history.
Were some on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com premature in criticizing the look of the Merion bunkers because they hadn't had the chance to grow in? I think so, and I feel I was one of them. It never really occured to me how rugged and natural their grass surrounds would look in a few years.
But for some who continue to criticize Merion's bunker project I guess that fact does not get around the issue that they look very little like the bunkers of Merion East ever looked before.
Did the bunkers of Merion East ever look better than these bunkers? That's an interesting question. In my opinion, they probablynever did, except during that time in the 1920s and 1930s when they had those lacy grass edges. The way the Merion bunkers used to look in more modern times was really very little different than a lot of bunkers around here at other courses. The only real issue was those old bunkers, even though they looked a good deal like many of the bunkers around here at other courses, were Merion's----and I guess that alone made them very special somehow. Did they need a ton of work before the recent bunker project? They need work desperately before the recent bunker project---particularly sanding and drainage which had basically totally failed.
They most certainly did. The real issue was could they, or should they have just fixed those old grass bunker surrounds vs totally rebuilding and regrassing them?"
TommyN:
If there's anything about that post of mine where you think I'm being disingenous for some reason, I believe you'd be wrong.
Are the bunkers of Merion what they used to be? Of course not. Are they good bunkers now? I believe they are. Were they great bunkers before the lastest bunker project? No they really were not. They were no different in shape and look and playability than many of the bunkers on plenty of other courses around here that needed a good capital restoration or improvement. The only difference with Merion East's old bunkers is they were Merion East's----nothing more!
Should they have done the sanding and drainage only with those old bunkers and restored the look of the surrounds to the way they were in the 1930s? You know I've always felt that way and I still do.
They look nothing now like they ever did but the fact remains the bunkers they have now are good bunkers in many ways---they just happen to be nothing like the look of the evolutionary bunkers that Merion East had before.
-
"I doubt you will be able to give an honest answer which you know is right. I really do, and don't get me wrong the course is in very decent looking shape with all things considered, but for all of the trouble they had there you would think at least someone would be willing to step up and say "We made some mistakes....."
TommyN:
If someone like you is primarily interested in Merion admitting that some mistakes were made during the bunker restoration I'm sure I could get them to admit that, and have that reported on here. If that's what this is all about on here (Merion admitting some mistake may've been made) then it's pretty disappointing, don't you think?
People like you ought to learn how to get the hell off the "constant complaint train" and start recognizing and admitting what's gone right at Merion East.
-
I was at the final round of the 1971 US Open and can tell you they had the baskets. I remember walking by the practice putting green and they have little baskets for those holes.
-
Joel,
Yep, I should have gone back into my notes. As I posted earlier, it was the 1950 Open that used flags...every other major was baskets.
-
Tom Paul,
I'm not going to take this any further, tarnishing what seems to be a great tournament on one of the great courses in the game.
Another thing is you won't ever see me playing both sides of the fence just to appease a "C" membership at a "A+"course. (You remember that one don't you?)
-
"Tom Paul,
I'm not going to take this any further, tarnishing what seems to be a great tournament on one of the great courses in the game."
I'd say that's a very level-headed position to take on here.
"Another thing is you won't ever see me playing both sides of the fence just to appease a "C" membership at a "A+"course. (You remember that one don't you?)."
I stand by everything I said in response to Jim Lewis in post #183 and everything I said in post #190. Perhaps you see that as playing both sides of the fence to appease the membership of Merion. I don't. I see it as an opinion that's somewhat different than the one I had about 2-3 years ago. The reason my opinion has changed is because the bunkers of Merion East don't look the same as they did 2-3 years ago just after the bunker project was completed. Back then if I'd known some of the things I know now about bunker grassing and what it can accomplish I probably wouldn't have said some of the things I did then. I believe in giving credit where it's due and I believe in admitting it when I make a mistake. If you think that's playing both sides of the fence to appease the membership of Merion East then I'm sorry. I don't see it that way at all. I do remember when you came to Merion but I can't remember now whether it was before the bunker project, during it or after it. In my opinion, to truly understand this entire issue it does help a lot to have been completely familiar with the bunkers of Merion East before the recent bunker project, during the project and just after it was completed, as well as how they are now. There are approximately three bunkers in the high right side of the Quarry Hole that were done in-house---personally that's the bunker look I'd like to have seen throughout the golf course. Some may not see a difference but if they'd like to know what I mean I'd be glad to explain it.
-
Tommy:
Although it happens I'm talking about Merion in replying to you, the point I'm about to make is, in fact, a philosophical belief that I have regarding global golf architecture.
To wit: I do not believe the bunkers at Merion are too deep BECAUSE I really like deep greenside bunkers and have never seen one that I thought was "too deep". To me, most of them aren't near deep enough to be appropriately penal (according to my personal preferences, of course).
I think the deepest I ever saw is on Dye's TPC West in Palm Springs (is it #16 - a par 5??). There's probably others that are even more penal than that.
-
Chip:
There're probably only about a half dozen bunkers at Merion East that're really deep (or with significant height to get out of). I doubt even half the membership could get the ball up to the green from the right greenside bunker on #3 but it's always been like that. In descending order of difficulty from there I'd say front #13, left #7, front #8 and right front #15. Other than that I wouldn't call them that deep unless you're right up near the lip of many of them. Basically Merion East just traded shallower bunkers with hard pan sand surfaces that were hard for many to get out of for that reason for good sand surfaces and more bunker depth or height. Of course the grass surrounds don't look anything like they used to at any time in Merion's history. Actually the grass surrounds look about 500% more rugged than they ever did at any time in Merion's history. BTW, it was a nice surprise to run into you yesterday.
-
Couple things about the bunkers:
Does Merion still have the "White Faces" which seem to be well-illustrated in Geoff Shackelford's Golden Age book? When were those pics taken? The picture of the "White Faces" on the 12th hole looks ravishing, and nothing like what I see on tv (admittedly not a good source). Not much face now. I should note that there is a pic of the 12 greensite in the Confidential Guide, which looks nothing like the pic in Geoff's book either, so the white running up to the green seems to have been lost a while ago.
Actually, aside from the long grass surrounding the bunkers, the bunkers look (and I say only look) quite similar to the ones done on the North Course at Olympia Fields in shape, size, "cragginess" and people seem to indicate they have similar depth. (That's why I asked if anyone had trouble getting in and out of them. How's the drainage on the really deep ones, anyway?)
-
I took a few pictures while following Zahringer and Deacon.
How were you able to get your camera (what kind) in? Nice pictures, BTW. ( I followed George at PCC on Monday, seeing how my age-peers are doing!)
I heard informally from someone who should know that it would be ok to use it. I kept the camera (Nikon Coolpix 995) in plain view; no one objected.
-
Tom Paul:
You're clearly hitting too many greens in regulation at Merion and not visiting enough bunkers as you've not correctly identified their severity of depth.
#8 isn't really all that deep.
#12 (right) is probably as deep as #3.
#10 is at least as deep as #15 and close to being as deep and demanding as #13.
What IS unassailably true is that ALL of the greenside bunkers are noticeably deeper than before. As we have often discussed, I like that.
And as I said to Tommy, I'd like to see that virtually everywhere in the world.
You need to let your precision iron play decay a little bit to get the same true picture as we higher handicap types.
It was good seeing you, as well, although I was sort of expecting that would happen even with your Wild Horse protoge already on his way home.
-
Finally got over to Merion today.
I'll try to write more tomorrow, but since I've had quite a bit to say about the bunkers in the past, I thought I'd weigh in...
The good news is they look better...a LOT better. As Tom Paul mentioned, they've evolved a bit, but my sense is the real story is that the thick bluegrass has died off quite a bit, particularly on the steeper slopes, and fescue has been "encouraged". In fact, Joe Logan told us the faces had been "done over", purposefully getting rid of the bluegrass. To that I say "Hallelujah". They don't look quite as good as they probably will in a few more years, but they are starting to get the tattered and ragged look again, and I felt encouraged that some wise maintenance practices seem to be making a difference.
One thing they seem to be missing however, which clearly existed in the past, is contour within the bunker itself. As Tommy pointed out, balls seem to gather back into the flat center of the bunkers, which really didn't happen much in the past. The bowls of the bunkers are fairly concave, so they don't have the same "iffiness" that they had before. They are deeper, yes, but they are fairer, and for the better player, they are probably easier than they were in the past.
One last thought before bed...
Anyone who thinks the high scores at Merion this week were due to some type of over the top, draconian setup is simply dead wrong.
It played soft, frankly, and the rough was spotty. I did not see one "pitch out" all day, but instead full shots played from fairly benign lies in the rough. The greens were soft, compared to how I've seen the course in the past. I was really surprised to see how well the course held up.
I found myself thinking that Merion might actually be the toughest course in the country.
-
Mike Cirba said;
"As Tom Paul mentioned, they've evolved a bit, but my sense is the real story is that the thick bluegrass has died off quite a bit, particularly on the steeper slopes, and fescue has been "encouraged". In fact, Joe Logan told us the faces had been "done over", purposefully getting rid of the bluegrass. To that I say "Hallelujah". They don't look quite as good as they probably will in a few more years, but they are starting to get the tattered and ragged look again, and I felt encouraged that some wise maintenance practices seem to be making a difference."
Mike:
I can certainly check with Matt Shaeffer or Bill Greenwood about that but I doubt the grassing of Merion's bunkers has been "done over" as Joe Logan mentioned and you reported. Those grass surrounds simply needed a few years to establish themselves properly. There's basically no way around that or no short-cut to that. That is the factor virtually no one on this website who originally criticized them understood---and that incuded me. Obviously that's something we all learned and that fact should be admitted.
Initially they did have some trouble establishing the grass surrounds because of ineffective irrigation and southern exposure burn-out but that was corrected a couple of years ago.
The fescue needed the time and the right condition to look like it does now. Obviously noone on this website was willing to give those bunkers that time before criticizing them. The reason for that is most on here obviously didn't understand all that much about bunker construction and agronomy.
You say they're starting to get that tattered and ragged look again? Are you kidding? One can hardly find bunkers anywhere that look as tattered and ragged and naturally grassy as those grass bunker surrounds on Merion right now. And there's no "again" to it at all. As I said to you yesterday at no time in Merion's history did their bunkers have grass surrounds that was that long and tattered and ragged looking. The only time they looked even remotely that "grassy" is during the era from the late 1920s to the 1940s or 1950s when the little "eyebrows" and capes were let grow. After that the grassing of Merion's bunkers was maintained much less "grassy" then it was then or is now. And before this recent project some of the bunkers were very different this way than others.
There's a whole lot more "volume" in the grass surrounds of these present bunkers (both length of grass and volume of sod on their tops and surrounds) and the tops of some of them lap over much more than they used to. This might be a problem and actually already was with one---eg #13. As far as much more grass lapping over, that's obviously got a lot to do with the fact that the sand contours are not so much same as they used to be.
I think the look of the grass bunker surrounds now is extremely ragged and tattered and natural looking, matter of fact far more than it ever was in Merion's history and maybe that's what bothered some on here. As I mentioned to you the look of the bunkers of Merion before the project actually wasn't much different than many courses around here. Only problem with changing that at Merion (versus other courses) is they were the bunkers of the famous Merion East.
-
I haven't spotted Puffy Wilson yet when the TV camera pans the spectators. Do they allow folks in the gallery to play in the sand after the matches conclude? They say Moe Norman was known to sleep overnight in bunkers when he'd travel to various tournaments. Mike, are you totting a sleeping bag? ;D
-
RJ:
The spectator atmosphere at the US Amateur at Merion was a pretty relaxed one. Mark Rowlinson (from England) was here for the Wednesday and Thursday rounds and he said he was struck by how cozy Merion East was and how user friendly the place was for the spectators who could basically get right next to any player in any match.
There was minimal roping compared to pro tournaments and other than the sides of a few tees and greens the spectators could roam around the course at will.
There were plenty of rules officials and marshals but sometimes things got pretty funny as spectators (and even a few carts and such) crossed way out in front of players about to hit.
On Firday in the quarterfinals Austin Eaton was standing on the 4th tee about to hit and spectators just kept filtering out of the trees to the left about 100 out and below the tee and walked across the hole. The marshals were screaming and yelling and waving at them as those spectators looked back up the hill and stopped dead like deer in headlights and then fled back into the trees. That took a couple of minutes and then Eaton was just about to pull the trigger and another spectator walked right across the hole causing the marshals to really freak out. Eaton backed off and said rather stentorianly---"Don't worry about it, that's just my father."
Puffy Wilson? He's gone. The bunkers of Merion no longer have that puffy and upholstered look to them. The long and ragged and natural looking grass surrounds have obfuscated all that.
I guess I'd have to say the real irony of those bunker surrounds now compared to how they were before the project is that before the project the club said those surrounds had to be fixed because they were collapsing and falling apart. But the fact is now the sheer volume and weight of those grass surrounds is so excessive compared to the way they used to be that the issue of them slipping and collapsing to some extent will probably always be part and parcel of Merion East's maintenance practices.
-
One thing they seem to be missing however, which clearly existed in the past, is contour within the bunker itself.
Would you explain how a bunker can have internal contour despite the impact of wind, rain, water from irrigation heads, golfers, sand pros or hand raking and gravity ?
Could you also explain how they maintained and preserved the internal contour of their bunkers on a consistent basis in the past ?[/color]
As Tommy pointed out, balls seem to gather back into the flat center of the bunkers, which really didn't happen much in the past.
In the past, was gravity suspended at Merion ?[/color]
The bowls of the bunkers are fairly concave, so they don't have the same "iffiness" that they had before.
What "iffiness" ?
Would you describe the "iffiness" that a ball encountered when entering the bunkers on # 13 ?[/color]
They are deeper, yes, but they are fairer, and for the better player, they are probably easier than they were in the past.
Wouldn't deeper bunkers make them inherently more difficult ?
How are they easier for the better player if they're deeper ?
Wouldn't new sand be less compacted, thus making them more inconsistent, fluffier and more difficult when combined with their added depth ?[/color]
One last thought before bed...
Anyone who thinks the high scores at Merion this week were due to some type of over the top, draconian setup is simply dead wrong.
Are you suggesting that the field is very weak ?[/color]
It played soft, frankly, and the rough was spotty. I did not see one "pitch out" all day, but instead full shots played from fairly benign lies in the rough. The greens were soft, compared to how I've seen the course in the past. I was really surprised to see how well the course held up.
How do you explain wedges ricocheting off of greens like they were kevlar ?[/color]
I found myself thinking that Merion might actually be the toughest course in the country.
Well then, based upon the comments that not much is different about the golf course when compared to membership play, perhaps they're hosting the Class C Club Championship and not the US Amateur at Merion this week ;D[/color]
-
It's amazing to me the way some are describing the way Merion was and is now----particularly the way the bunkers used to play and play now. It sure isn't the course I know and watched US Am competitors on every single day for the last week?
And Pat, what is this description that the greens of Merion were like kevlar with wedges riccohetting off of them? Who said that? They were nothing like that. They were a nice firmness in the middle of the week but even then a well struck wedge from the fairway would take a bounce or two and then check and often back up some. After a light rain Saturday morning they were more receptive than duing mid-week. All last week I must have watched hundreds of shots of all kinds of clubs into those greens on all holes and not one time did I see a ball riccohete off a green like it was kevlar. So don't go trying to claim they were like kevlar because there were a couple of thousand people there and a couple of hundred competitors who will tell you otherwise.
-
TEPaul,
It must have been trick-photography or a special effects experiment that the networks were trying out.
Kim hit a perfect wedge into # 18 and the ball reacted as if it hit concrete and bounded off of the green.
I'm sure, in reality, that the ball hit, bounced once and then spun back 15 feet. ;D
-
Pat:
How do you know Kim hit a perfect wedge off #18? Did you hit that wedge for him? And how do you explain the hundreds and hundreds of shots that were played into these greens by competitors all week long? I guess you think the conditions of the greens are like Kevlar on the strength of one shot you saw on TV. It'd be a bit smarter and a whole lot more accurate to go with what thousands of spectators at the golf cousrse and hundreds of competitors at the golf course have seen and done all week long.
At 4:30 eastern time Molinari sure has turned this 36 hole match around (3 down at lunch to 2 up through ten holes). He's also five under par in the afternoon through ten holes!! Can he keep that going and get near a competitive course record 63?
Six under through 11! Jeeesus. This probably shows what happens when it rains and the greens are soft. Merion needs firm greens.
-
Pat:
How do you know Kim hit a perfect wedge off #18?
Because of the distance, swing and ball flight.[/color]
Did you hit that wedge for him?
That would be against the rules.[/color]
And how do you explain the hundreds and hundreds of shots that were played into these greens by competitors all week long?
Those are called approach and recovery shots.
They are necessary if one wants to play a hole.[/color]
I guess you think the conditions of the greens are like Kevlar on the strength of one shot you saw on TV.
I didn't say that I had only seen one shot on TV.
I merely cited one shot that I saw.[/color]
It'd be a bit smarter and a whole lot more accurate to go with what thousands of spectators at the golf cousrse and hundreds of competitors at the golf course have seen and done all week long.
I can only vouch for what I saw.[/color]
At 4:30 eastern time Molinari sure has turned this 36 hole match around (3 down at lunch to 2 up through ten holes). He's also five under par in the afternoon through ten holes!! Can he keep that going and get near a competitive course record 63?
It sure helps when the putts fall.
Both players seem rather poised, considering that it's the final round..[/color]
Six under through 11! Jeeesus. This probably shows what happens when it rains and the greens are soft. Merion needs firm greens.
The better players seem fearless when the greens are receptive to approach shot.[/color]
-
Patrick,
NBC's Gary Koch said that yesterday was the stressful day because winning the semis gets you into the US Open and the Masters. Pity today's finals is an afterthought. :-\
-
Patrick:
That's right, you can only vouch for what you saw and that's precisely why you should refrain from saying things like the greens of Merion were like Kevlar. You should learn to take the word of those who were there in person all week and saw hundreds of shots come into all those greens with plenty of control. You want the facts? Those were the facts---just ask anyone who was there including some of the competitors.
:)
-
"The better players seem fearless when the greens are receptive to approach shot."
Patrick:
Which is it, Kevlar or receptive? Make up your mind. Or do you think the greens like kevlar to all those competitors who didn't get to the finals and receptive for those two that did? ;)
-
Congratulations to Edoardo Molinari, the first Italian to win the US Amateur----perhaps even the first resident of Italy to even play in it. I did not realize until today he'd never played in a tournament in the States until flying over here last a few weeks ago and qualifying as the medalist in Baltimore and flying home. I also did not realize Molinari had to sink a bunker shot on his last hole of on-site qualifying just to get into the 19 for 17 play-off for match play Wednesday morning.
The first I saw of him in the Amateur he was playing the 9th hole against Van der Walt a giant blond South African. I was standing there with a lady member of Merion who looked at the names on the placcard of their match, then looked at this giant blond South African and this swarthy dark Italian with a fairly heavy beard by that time and asked me which one was Van der Walt and which one was Molinari?
I'll tell you---some people really are intutive, aren't they? Naturally I told her the giant blond had to be Molinari and the swarthy dark one had to be Van der Walt ;)
BTW, it looks like Van der Walt's brother Tjaart just lost out in a play-off on tour today.
-
My day at Merion yesterday was simply the best day I've ever had at a golf course without actually playing. The gallery was great, the golf was great, the on-course staff (mostly members) were great, and the course left me speechless.
And the Deacon/Dougherty match was like a movie. Heck - we even got to talk to him mom on the 16th.
Unless you've seen it in person, you don't know how great Merion is.
***
By the way, NBC said that Edoardo Molinari played some local munis earlier in the week. Any idea where he may have played?
And did you hear how Edoardo is spending tomorrow caddying for his father at Merion? Extremely classy!
What a great week!
(We even got to see the semi-famous co-author of a heavily anticipated book on Mr. William Flynn!)
-
You guys are funny.
Molinari finished 7 under on the last 15 holes. Wow!
The players each had tap-in birdies on 15 in the morning, by spinning it back down the green from above. In the afternoon, both elected to hit it below, where Molinari rolled ina 25-30 footer to win. Over the course of the day, it seems some adjustment was made for firmness.
-
You guys are funny.
Molinari finished 7 under on the last 15 holes. Wow!
The players each had tap-in birdies on 15 in the morning, by spinning it back down the green from above. In the afternoon, both elected to hit it below, where Molinari rolled ina 25-30 footer to win. Over the course of the day, it seems some adjustment was made for firmness.
And took 18 putts on those 15 holes!
-
Dan Herrmann said, "Heck - we even got to talk to his mom on the 16th."
That's funny. At the Walker Cup we met the mothers of two of the players, one American (the guy who won the final point) and one Brit (the guy who lost the final point). Not during their match, actually, but the day before.
It sounds like everybody who visited the Amateur had a great time. The Walker Cup was wonderful to visit too, no ropes to speak of, watching the shots from the fairway and then walking up to the green to watch the putts from right in front.
The whole experience was dead opposite of PGA events where you have to fight to get a look. There is something to be said about going to these amateur events!
-
John Kirk:
Regarding your post #217 and the receptiveness of the greens would you mind telling that to Pat Mucci? For some reason he thinks the greens at Merion were like Kevlar, I guess because he saw one player on TV hit a ball over the 18th green with a wedge. ;)
-
I'm glad I stayed home today rather than play a round. It was fun watching a couple of very classy amatuer players show some real talant. Dougherty has nothing to hang his head for either. He played very well, but not excellent like Molinari today. These last two days were as good as golf gets to watch on TV, IMHO. With picture in picture, I got to keep track of Hartford too where they had an exciting finish.
But, knowing how flattened things look on TV made me strain to imagine all the cool stuff there really is there on the ground at Merion.
Patrick, Kevlar schmedlar... :P ;D
-
RJ Daley,
It's amazing what rain and syringing can do to greens, which played differently today then during the earlier part of the week.
TEPaul,
Ask Kim what happened to his ball
-
Concur, Pat - drainage, and green firmness is of our major concern.
-
Will the USGA be influenced by Molinari's 7 birdies in 15 holes in the afternoon round today to deny Merion an Open?
-
Steve - Remember - match play is outside the barrier of medal play. We go for it in match, and we wonder about it in medal !
-
Wish Dougherty won.
Go NU!!!!!!!!!!!!
;)
-
Paul, better check on Shivas... ;)
-
Puffy Wilson? He's gone. The bunkers of Merion no longer have that puffy and upholstered look to them. The long and ragged and natural looking grass surrounds have obfuscated all that.
I guess I'd have to say the real irony of those bunker surrounds now compared to how they were before the project is that before the project the club said those surrounds had to be fixed because they were collapsing and falling apart. But the fact is now the sheer volume and weight of those grass surrounds is so excessive compared to the way they used to be that the issue of them slipping and collapsing to some extent will probably always be part and parcel of Merion East's maintenance practices.
TEPaul,
you just contradicted yourself in the same post and you were redundant at the same time.....
So what is it, The puffy, upolstered look is gone, while the ledge is still collapsing, which was the entire reasoning for doing the bunker project to begin with....? ? ? ?
OR......
The puffy, upolstered look is it still there hiding underneth all of that rough grass WHICH LOOKS GREAT, while the ledge is still collapsing, which was the entire reasoning for doing the bunker project to begin with? ? ? ? ?
Would you feel the same way if Merion was on the West Coast, and if so, how come you've never said anything about the VERY SAME contractor and the VERY SAME architect who are performing the same butchery on one of our great National gems called Riviera? Or are your principles just confined to Phildelphia and South Jersey?
Enquiring minds want to know....
Hugh "Puffy" Wilson wants to know to....(He's alive and well too!)
Also, You used to be a person of substance about the attention to detail that certain architects pride themselves on when doing work. This would mean utilizing creative means for creative thought. I've never seen these architects I speak of, EVER compromise their art and their creativity for the "QUICK FIX."
To me, all of the bunkers at Merion now look the same, where before they had a certain character to them--almost as if they had that seaside individual character that could be christened or named. The same type of character that makes them legendary for their QUALITY. I don't see that at all in this new, "much improved" bunkering that you and Chip love so much. Even if it flies into the face of the somewhat well documented principles of the club. To me that substance you once had has either been severly compromised or is simply being overlooked by good old fasion homerism.
Mike Cirba, Don't back down on this one! Give it right back to him! He opened this door.
-
TommyN:
Regarding that last post of yours, OK, if you want to get into it with your opinions on the bunkers of Merion, the architect and contractor and my position on the evolution of the Merion bunkers, then I'm willing to do exactly that, particularly since you're now accusing me of a lack of substance and "homerism".
For starters, perhaps you should look up the definitions of "irony" and "obfuscate" and what that may mean in my post you just quoted. If you do that properly then perhaps you'll reevaluate what you said about me ‘contradicting’ myself or being ‘redundant’. What I'm doing here is reporting how those bunkers have changed in look in the last three years or so and why.
If Merion were on the West Coast would I say the same things I have about it? Probably not. I probably wouldn’t say much of anything about it because if Merion were on the West Coast I very likely wouldn't know the course as well as I have and do. You asked why I haven't said as much about the recent Fazio/Macdonald architectural project at Riviera or the bunkers of Riviera as I did a few years ago about the Fazio/Macdonald bunker project of Merion and the bunkers as they are today? Probably because I just don't know that much about Riviera and the details of its architecture and the evolution of its bunkers as well as the Fazio/Macdonald project there. The same is true of your understanding of Merion on the East Coast.
Perhaps you should start to recognize the same thing about yourself---eg you may know the history and evolution of Riviera well but not Merion's.
You want Mike Cirba to stand his ground and give it right back to me? What are you talking about? I was out there with him during most of Saturday's round, and told him just what I did on here. While out there I also introduced him to Merion’s president and Joe Logan the Philly Inquirer golf reporter. Mike Cirba is a good golf architecture analyst but he doesn't know the way that golf course was throughout its evolution, particularly the evolution of its bunkering the way I do and he doesn't know how and why they've evolved the way they have in the last 2-3 years. I doubt he's ever met Richie Valentine, Greg Armstrong, Matt Shaeffer and many of the others involved with Merion and spoken to them about all this at length. I doubt he's done the research on the golf course that Wayne and I have. How well did he know the details of that course before the project? How much has he kept up with the details of what went on out there since the project?
If you want to talk about the facts of the evolution of Merion and its bunkers I'll be glad to go into the details---but all that is in the archives of this website anyway. There's nothing contradictory or redundant about anything I’ve said. The bunkers today do not look like they did three years ago and they sure don't look like they did five years ago as I've said on here many times. The bunkers five years ago sure didn't look like they did in 1930s and those 1930 bunkers looked little like they did in the teens. If you want to know the details of how and why they were at any of those times we'd be glad to discuss it.
But if it's simply your never-ending vendetta against architect Tom Fazio, contractor Macdonald & Co and perhaps Merion, the club, and some of its members such as Buddy Marucci, I'm just not interested in that on this website, and as you know that's something I've spoken with you about a number of times on the telephone as being really counterproductive generally. That kind of modus operandi of yours on this website I view as truly counter-productive with Merion or with Riviera, their architecture and also very much this website in a general sense. If you think ‘substance’ on here is for all GOLFCLUBATLAS’s contributors to form a consensus along with you in your criticism of Fazio and Macdonald & Co. then I’m not on the same page with you and I never will be.
My philosophy is to talk about golf architecture in detail and honestly and keep the personal vendettas and criticisms towards architects, contractors and clubs and their members involved in projects out of it.
And I don't say that in some sort of philosophical vacuum either. It definitely is not lost on me that if this website and some of its contributors could take this Merion bunker project situation on this website back about 5-6 years and learn how to have an intellegent dialogue with Merion and those involved with it then this site and some of it contributors and their opinions may've had a far more benefical influence on the course and some of the things that took place.
But long ago all that became virtually impossible. Why? Because it all became almost completely adverserial. Who was primarily responsible for that? You were TommyN. When are you ever going to learn that you can maintain your passionate principles about golf architecture and simply apply them in a more productive and less adverserial way? You know as well as I do that most all of us on this website are basically in the same philosophical boat in our principles regarding golf course architecture. The only real difference I can see is sometimes some of us have to pay a higher personal price in various ways than others do. And the reason for that, as far as I can see, is because we choose to get more directly involved than others do with some clubs and those who have to do with them.
We all love you on here but do yourself, me and the rest of us a favor and take this advice of mine to heart this time. Understand that getting to know and trying to work with some of the people you may not always agree with, even if in small ways, is not compromising architectural principles. Better things happen with golf courses if one can get involved, even if in a small way with them, rather than completely pissing off the people who have to do with them.
-
Tom,
Answer your phone or give me a call at home.
-
"Tom,
Answer your phone or give me a call at home"
TommyN:
The house got struck by lightening about a week ago----the phones are totally screwed up and getting worse. They promise it'll all be fixed by tomorrow.
-
Struck by lighting? ? ?
Good thing it didn't get the internet connection!
And by the way, wasn't I the one that suggested installing a lighting rod at the house in 2000? ;)
-
Internet connection ???, how about the wine cellar cooling system. ;)
-
Sully,
How could I be so stupid?!?!?!
TO HELL WITH EVERYTHING ELSE! SAVE THE WINE!