Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Mike_Young on August 14, 2005, 09:33:41 PM
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I continue to see golf courses where the continuity from green to next tee is non existant and is not even considered a problem by many developers. What is a golf routing? In my opinion anyone can lay 18 holes on the ground and then tie them together with cartpaths if interim distance between holes is of no importance. I don't even consider some of these new projects to be routed just connected.
The talent in routing a course lies in the ability to blend the transition from green to tee into a harmonious mixture where it fits best.
Will golfers continue to accept these new "routings"??
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Will golfers continue to accept these new "routings"??
As long as they have carts, no clue about golf architecture, and golf is more a social event than a sport... :-\
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Ahhh...but we might all recall the great walks in golf. Among them the pleasant jog from No. 14 to 15 at Cypress Point Club.
Routing does not always "work." I am not defending excessive connections. But it is not right to immediately dis-embrace all of them...and blame the cart.
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A well-routed golf course is a course that has rhythm.
JC
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American Pie has rhythm...and a long pause.
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Jonathan: pls define rhythm ??? re a golf course
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Rhythm. Balance. Sequence.
A routing plan must give careful attention to each. Without these qualities, the golf course might as well be an ordinary maze and the golfer a rat looking for cheese. The idea of rhythm, balance, and sequence was articulated by golf architect Desmond Muirhead. Rhythm, according to Muirhead, is the relationship between difficulty and surprise; it has to do with the pattern whereby these qualities are presented to the golfer. “Nature knows rhythm best. It’s difficult to outdo nature when it comes to rhythm. A good routing appears natural like this. It has a natural flow.” That all-important flow may be partly rigid in its structure, but it also must be partly left to chance in order to have an engaging sequence. Muirhead was not alone in his feeling that “the intellectual capacity of many golf courses is lacking.” It is easy to find example after example of me-too designs that golfers can hardly tell apart.
From Routing the Golf Course (John Wiley & Sons, 2002)
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Paul, I cannot speak for JC, but he touches on the most important aspect. He calls it rythm, I call it ebb and flow. I suspect they are the same thing. It's kind of funny... cause the best analogy I often think of is one the supremes definition of pornography. I know it when I see it. However, the other day I was at a place where the flow was all wrong and quantifiable.
It all started on the tenth hole, a side designed by someone completely different than the frontside. This tenth hole was a long par 5 with a landing area that seemed teensy from the tee, and in reality, was even smaller. In other words, the hole was a real ball buster. It belonged much later in the flow, and just ended-up making the remainder anti-climactic.
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Ahhh...but we might all recall the great walks in golf. Among them the pleasant jog from No. 14 to 15 at Cypress Point Club.
Routing does not always "work." I am not defending excessive connections. But it is not right to immediately dis-embrace all of them...and blame the cart.
Forrest,
Was 17-Mile Drive there before Cypress was? Hard to make #14 green closer to #15 with a road in between.
Certainly there are other classic courses with roads that are crossed from green to tee, but rarely are the distances much longer than 100 yards and severe in terrain. Modern courses have distances seveal hundred yards between holes and it's not always due to severity of the property...and often the it IS the severe property that is left over because the homes took up all the good "walkable" parts.
Of course, look who I'm talking to? The guy that wrote the book! What can I say you don't already know? ;)
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Yes, the road was there...although it did not cost $7.50 to drive it.
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Yes, the road was there...although it did not cost $7.50 to drive it.
$8.50 ;)
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"redanman® (for Q)"
...what is this all about?
And...$8.50...that is highway robbery...literally!
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Forrest, Adam: pls give me some examples of courses with good rhythm
Cypress? Pebble? Pinehurst?
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Cypress is a very good example. Myopia. Pinehurst No. 2 is not at all bad. Pebble is decent...especially its figure-8 flow. Muirfield (OH) is a very nice routing. I like Bandon's flow, perhaps slightly more than Pacific. But Pacific is great.
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Considering Forrest was able to have more than a couple chapters in his book it is safe to say there is a lot of layers to routing, and not all of it has to do directly with the golf. Specifically, the link between the holes is just one of those things on the list that at the end of the day add up to what you experienced.
Yes, in the strive to make the golf holes as best as they can be (or sometimes even work) with all the other development things thrown our way I guess we sacrifice the trait of proximity between holes. The good thing is that I am seeing more emphasis on allowing the golf it's own core area - to some extent - and that should help. Others see that too?
Core non-development courses is a different story.
Hey, how about the old links coures in Scotland, Ireland, etc. for Rythem? How they evolved may have something to do with that aspect?
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I guess I am trying to say that I see more and more 18 hole course with no routing. Almost like routing was completely disregarded just find me 18 green and tee sites and we will ride between them. This is not routingIMO
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Mike:
To me a routing is the manner by which the architect uses to full advantage all the elements / features that the given site for the course possesses. Clearly, the land is the foremost element when I evaluate the totality of what is created. The routing is really the second among equals.
In addition, the routing will allow for the interplay of holes that counterbalance others that either come before or after it. For example, a superior routing doesn't allow for the same direction of holes to be a constant ingredient. Furthermore, the superior routing blends into the equation the control of ball flight (left/right & right/left as well as uphill / downhill, varying distances, etc, etc.
The superior routing doesn't allow / permit an easy to figure out pattern that the player can easily discern / master. One of the best examples comes from Muirfield in Scotland which revolutionized the context and complexities of routings. More than just the "out" and "in" type course.
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okay...MK..in seeing in print how you prioritized the land over the routing got me thinking about that. It is safe to say that some very good routings have overcome awkward or average sites. (Riviera) So maybe we try to break apart this stuff too much and it is all just layers which maybe you hint at with the "among equals" qualification.
Where I think the men stand apart from the boys is in the ability to route on a tough site.
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Okay...MW...
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I'm seeing much less resistance to core golf on tracts that we've been creating the master plan for....maybe it's an lessening of options presented ::).....better golf, better community, not really a choice if planned right.
Even the mega developers are listening....core is cool 8)
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Mike, how many courses today are routed by the residential project developer? Not literally perhaps, but by giving the golf architect only the land not as desirable for the homesites. Add in the road system and thank heavens for the golf cart!
Another condition that can really lengthen the distance between greens and the following tees is environmental, wetlands etc.
Or it could just be the Robert Trent Jones Trail in Alabama where there never was a walkable routing conceived in spite of no housing on most of the courses!
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Bill....I think alot of what Mike is disturbed about is not just the developers desires, or even site constraints, but just poor or inexperienced planning in general......land planners all to often don't understand routing or the 'game' itself...L'scape Archs spend little time on golf planning in school.
Conversely, many golf designers don't have a larger scale planning background and cannot really affect the master plan in a way that allows for the best routing....and are stuck with poorly designed corridors created by others in which to ply their trade.
Its hard for a person to be equally skilled in this business when it comes to creating good golf and good residential.
...but it happens :-X.
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Cypress reminds me of a book slowly building to a climax.
Merion reminds me of a play, three different acts telling a wonderful story.
Pine Valley has none of those, and yet it is a masterful routing, well hidden by an aesthetic we talk about more.
You can't define a routing or what makes it great. I still think the great ones come out of instinct rather than a preplanned set of conditions thrown together to try and find greatness. While people talk about flow and rythem, please define either at Pine Valley. While they are words I would likely use too, I still don't think they touch the surface of what makes a great routing.
I still think the masterworks come from the transition holes, when you can't define them, the architect is a genius. If you think about all the great courses, find those holes, and most of what makes an architect great is defined in those holes (rather than the natural ones).
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Routings are all relative! Sometimes they turn out great, other times they don't. But in almost every case, it is rare that the golfer will ever know, understand, or realize what was involved to "route" the golf course in the first place. We all judge the routing by what is there (myself included) but we truly cannot appreciate what the architect had to endure to make it happen unless we were involved with the process from the start.
I go back to the much over discussed routing of The Plantation Course but then again what do Coore and Crenshaw know about a good routing. Clearly these guys are clueless as they needed almost 800 acres to build their darn golf course. What were they thinking ;)
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It was obvious at Chicago Golf Club this weekend that C.B. MacDonald, who routed the course in 1894, had a fade or slice as his dominant shot pattern! The front nine plays around the perimeter of the course clockwise through #8, when #13 goes to the perimeter followed along the perimeter by #14 and the tee shot on #15. Old C.B. was no dummy, he never worried about driving OB!
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Let me pose the question this way....do you guys consider the area from green to next tee an important part of the routing?
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Personally?
You bet, the next tee should be no more than 50 yards from the previous green except if necessary around the clubhouse etc.
But given environmental and housing considerations, that probably wishful thinking.
And in today's distance situation, the next tee should be within 50 yards but have room to shove it back 50 yards in the next few years to accomodate those 550 yard par 4's and 700 yard par 5's!
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It was obvious at Chicago Golf Club this weekend that C.B. MacDonald, who routed the course in 1894, had a fade or slice as his dominant shot pattern! The front nine plays around the perimeter of the course clockwise through #8, when #13 goes to the perimeter followed along the perimeter by #14 and the tee shot on #15. Old C.B. was no dummy, he never worried about driving OB!
I think it is an exampel of sensible routing rather than any personal bias. I know of so many coures that have been, or will be, redesigned because of the "boundary issues" that arise when a course is routed anti clockwise around the boundary.
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Read George Bahto's "Evangelist of Golf" about MacDonald's routing and personality in general. The routing of Chicago Golf Club was no accident, and C.B. was not above taking advantage of a situation!
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If I know it is a course where walking is part of the formula, then yes I make the transition from green to tee as seamless as possible. More emphasis is placed on it in a private club situation as well. Unfortunately these days it seems more often than not, walking is not in the formula. Liability really makes it tough as well.
Anyway, the long runs between greens and tees are a great place for the beverage cart to catch the group that is allready at 4.5 hours and only on the 16th hole. :P
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David,
IMO if walking is not part of the formula and it is based on housing then what you have is several series of golf holes and I don't consider it a routing. In modern golf and with modern machinery the routing is no longer as critical to many projects as it should be and then they wonder whats wrong.
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Mike, a lot of heat coming off your posts lately. This and the frustration thread really seem to be part and parcel of the same issue. I see it as the sort of frustration that it seems to me many craftsman and artists go through when they consider the commercial drek that comes along while they are at the height of their career trying to practice what they believe is the higher form of craftsmanship and competence. That, along with seeing the crap that passes by because it exists in a commercial and speculative environment where sizzle is more important than substance.
We have revisited the "collection of holes" discussion many times. We all know that in comparison to the traditional or purist form of golf design, that long cart rides through subdivisions (even if populated with showpiece mansions) are a humbug.
Yet, even housing associated golf courses can have routings that can be done well or crappy. Three examples of good, bad, and ugly in my opinion are:
Good: Pine Needles, walkable, lovely journey or setting, housing is subtle, the flow of holes have good playing rhythm. Even, considering that the original routing was changed, it all still fits nicely.
Bad: most of those desert courses where they are still walkable, but have stark homes or patio home golf units on both sides of the hole corridor, and FWs way too close to OB that is on both sides. Wherever the homes cause OB within the core, sucks, IMHO.
Ugly: Where the cartball routing not only separates the holes by long drives, but the drives themselves are past backyard and sidelot easements between houses, down streets and so forth. I played one such Art Hills course in Charleston (Goosecreek I think was the name) that had about 3-4 fairly interesting holes, and cart rides through kids on streets skateboarding, hopscotching, basketballing in driveways, etc. It was literally depressing it had so little golf rhythm.
We checked out Lake Oconee Reynolds Plantation courses last fall. There is a mixed bag of good and not so good. The routing was through residential and scenic areas, mixed. It was cartball. It did fall into a category of "collection of holes" where most all of the holes were decent golf. But, it did not have the flow and rhythm that say Pine Needles does, because the cart rides were just a wee too long between greens to tees in some places and you loose your focus. But, it did not suck either. With the multiple courses, I found it confusing, and lacking in the "feel" that you were on a golf course. I felt you were being offered a sampler platter of pub and grub apetizers, not a full course meal. All that is due to disjunctive "routing" IMHO.
Personally, I think that the acceptance by the public to have golf interspersed with housing development and cartballing as a given, has created a different sort of golf. It mitigates against the concept of sport, and creates a category of "better homes and gardens tour golf" as a society page atmosphere. I doubt any of the golden era legends of the game and its course designs would even consider playing at places like Reynolds Plantation, even if there are good holes there because it isn't the game or sport of a defined rhythm anymore, it is just an amusing motorized social passtime.
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Mike:
To answer your question -- the "true believers" on GCA would say "yes."
I take a more pragmatic approach -- clearly the site dictates the final arrangement. So long as the gap between the green that's been played and the next tee is not a redundant long trek -- equivalent to the NYC marathon -- I have no issue with it. A one time excursion can be forgotten provided the golf rises aboce it all.
Clearly, some sites must segway between certain parts of a given property and then get to other areas where the land is going to be used for the design.
The issue for me becomes one of understanding that the core golf experience cannot be "fitted" in such a way that the actual time spent playing is diverted to more and more driving of the carts. When that happens the experience of the course is then flipped on its head. If the situation is a constant one in taking long journeys then I don't object too much to the final outcome.
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Forrest, Adam: pls give me some examples of courses with good rhythm
Cypress? Pebble? Pinehurst?
Paul, I don't know if I've golfed a finer routing than Cypress Point. (Maybe Jasper Park? And the Original Banff?) Not only was there intimacy, but the clues that Mackenzie afforded, were helpful for this aware one and only timer.
Pebble Beach, now has a total flowus interuptus with the "IMPROVEMENTS" made to many holes. ::) Especially the 15th's new addition. I spoke with a buddy last night and he says that the new "pot" bunker is so poorly placed, that he now has no line, at any time, to give to his clients.
One of the modern routing gems is Pinon Hills in it's original configuration. Please read my feature interview for specifics.
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Mike, a lot of heat coming off your posts lately. This and the frustration thread really seem to be part and parcel of the same issue.
RJ,
No heat intended. Just been in the office for a couple of days and trying to be an instigator.....didn't see much on the site that looked interesting.
Mike
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I'm waaaaaaaay :) in the minority on this one, but I'd gladly take a slightly less impressive hole if it means a really short walk green to tee versus a long ride. Of course, the best routings achieve this without sacrificing anything with respect to the holes. I don't like the book, but I agree with Shivas in Golf in the Kingdom - the gemme IS the walk (I think that's how he spelled it and said it).
One of the few things that I disliked about Tobacco Road was the long ride from the 14th green to the 15th tee. I thought it really disrupted the flow.
One of the coolest things about Applebrook, on the other hand, were the green to tee melds on some of the holes. That struck me as a course you could probably walk in 2 1/2 hours if no one else was holding you up, and yet the holes looked pretty great, too (the GCA outing walked it prior to its opening a few years ago - don't hate me because I haven't gotten back to Philly to play it yet!).
I'm not sure I'd say anyone could build 18 individual holes - I've played some forgettable tracks - but it does seem to be a really unique talent to incorporate great holes into a great walk.
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George ,
Your post sums up what I was trying to say.
And one of the major things missing today is the green to tee melds....it's the element that some people just can't explain when they see a project they really like.
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George
It is interesting what you said about the walk between 14 and 15 at The Road. When I was there with Sandbox and Scott B. they had a disussion about adding a 19th hole between the two. I do not remember the details, but it certainly seemed like a decent par 3 could have been built. For me the walk wasn't bad. Not ideal for sure, but only a few minutes at most. I disliked the long walk between nines much more. It almost encourages a break between nines. Depending on how things are going, this break can be good, but in theory I dislike the practice of a break. I think The Road is easily good enough to overcome these "faults" with the routing.
What really gets me is if there is a long walk and the next hole is a dud. How silly is that?
Ciao
Sean
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Good points, Sean, and I will say that I still loved the course, it was a relatively minor point. Maybe it would have felt better if I had been walking, but I don't remember that being an option at the time (I played it shortly after opening & I was not as hardcore a walker as I have become). It just seemed to break up the flow a bit too much to me. It probably didn't help that I nailed a drive down the semi blind fairway on 15 and couldn't find it.
You couldn't be more right about the long drive to a weak hole. That might be the most annoying thing in golf. I'd guess it'd be second to a series of those, which is also one of the things Mike is railing against here, I think.
Mike -
I do wish there were more green to tee melds, but I'd guess in today's ever changing climate with respect to distance, it's something that will (sadly) remain a novelty of sorts.