Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Matt_Ward on November 14, 2002, 07:59:07 PM
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If you're looking for the perfect gift for Xmas that gives you all the major and minor details on the legendary Charles Blair Macdonald than rush, DON'T WALK, to get the first rate effort by George Bahto that chronicles the great man's life and the works of art he created.
I got the book early for a media review and once you pick it up you simply keep turning page after page after page. It's totally engrossing and the marriage between photographs and narrative is well paced and clearly researched to the hilt.
The book is printed by Clock Tower Press -- formely Sleeping Bear Press, and although it prices out at $85, the details are so rich and fascinating they could choke a horse. Any golf library missing this book is one lacking indeed.
The narrative is straightforward and contains a wonderful array of sidebars that outline all of the different players of the period and for those on GCA who are fascinated by the "how and why" -- Bahto delivers no less than a Barry Bonds home run.
When you get a clear break down of the holes at NGLA and Yale you get more than you might otherwise. Just when you thought you may have heard it all or known it all -- Bahto goes one step beyond.
I know George is well respected by many and this book, in my opinion, gives the golfer who loves architecture a tour de force effort. It is a MOST read for anyone who wants to know more about golf's past and how the past plays such a major role among a number of contemporary designs today.
Well done George -- I believe the ole man himself would approve. ;)
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You simply cannot imagine how much love and effort went into that book. George is a genius, and studying at the feet of the master has been one of the most enriching experiences of my life.
We all owe a debt of gratitude to him for bringing a chronicle of the man who literally ramrodded the game into this nation. . . . and for reviving the memory of an obscure Princeton Engineer/Surveyor who carried the torch to every corner of America as his protege.
Some projects sort of go on for so long that it is hard to envision that one day when all the research and writing will come to fruition in the form of a book. Even after all these years, seeing all the rough copies and proofs, I cannot believe what a spectacular job Brett Marshall did in laying it out and bringing the "Evangelist of Golf" to the public.
The astonding thing is that there are two more sequels in the pipeline. . . . . all from a man who spent the better part of his life as the neighborhood dry cleaner in sleepy New Jersey hamlet.
Life is amazing sometimes.
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I'm about 100 pages into it and highly recommend it!
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Matt;
Thanks for the preview!
I'm expecting my copy to arrive any day now, and if the mailman doesn't bring it soon I may have to go "postal" on him!!! ;D
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I am also having a "Pavlovian" reaction every
time I hear the mail truck!! I pre-ordered through
Amazon, so they are usually pretty timely. I guess
I am giving myself an "early Christmas present." :D
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I'm with Mike and Rob - I too preordered this on amazon and I'm getting VERY antsy....
TH
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The book indeed does look wonderful; I look forward to sitting down with it this weekend.
Congratulations George and Gib.
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I ordered directly from Clock Tower Press.My book arrived today.Thank you George-at least a thousand times.
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We all owe a debt of gratitude to him for bringing a chronicle of the man who literally ramrodded the game into this nation. . . .
Gib --
Literally?
Yow! :o
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Turns out I've bought so many books lately I forgot exactly whom I ordered this from... it was Clocktower and mine arrived Friday. It is everything we hoped and great fun to see our familiar names in print. I'm 1/3 into it and it is great reading indeed... I'd highly recommend it to one and all, even you heathens who prefer Shinnecock to National! ;)
TH
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Tom:
Count me as one of the heathens! ;D
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Matt: you were Heathen #1 in my mind! We've had this "battle" before... It's all in good fun and hey, there's room in golf for non-believers without a doubt. ;)
Seriously though, I do think the book isn't "just" for us CBMac-ophiles... there is a LOT of great stuff re golf and life in them thar pages George (and Gib) put forth....
TH
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FINALLY . . came in the mail yesterday. :D :D
Great work, I can only imagine how many countless hours were spent in its' creation. I love the old pictures (especially of mid-ocean's 5th), and I have yet to really dive into the text, but that will be my weekend activity.
Thanks again for the great book.
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Tuesday night I'm out of town and I drop by the local Borders to browse and I come across Nicklaus by Design. Thumbing thru it it's actually not bad. Yes it is only Jack's courses, but there are actually some good architecture & agronomic sections. A pleasent surprise. I go around the corner and I spy this massive white book in the golf section and I see Bahto in the corner. Spent the next 45 minutes in awe.
Amazon still hadn't shipped it as of this Am so I cancelled and bought it locally at lunch today. Can't wait to dive in.
From first look it's as impressive as any architecture book out there.
Way to go George (& Gib)!!
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I just returned from my local book store where I picked up the copies I had ordered. While I have just skimmed through the book, it looks great, and as Matt said, it will make a great Xmas present, to yourself and others.
I'm giving copies to some members of NGLA who I am sure will enjoy reading it, and adding it to their golf library.
George, how do I get my copies autographed ?
P.S. Who was the developer who bought The Links, and is any of it left ?
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Patrick - the Links: nothing left - just condos - don't really know who bought the property but will find out from Links members
Pat I could meet you at the Knoll or ECCC - working both right now - or I guess you could send them to me via UPS
thanks all of you for the kind words
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George Bahto,
May I suggest that the publisher send a complimentary copy of the book to each of CBM's golf clubs that had chapters devoted to them.
I would think that membership interest would increase sales substantially.
Just a thought.
Good Luck.
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Pat - you said: "May I suggest that the publisher send a complimentary copy of the book to each of CBM's golf clubs that had chapters devoted to them"
all that is already in the works - thanks
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Just a quick note to say that hours on one's back leads to plenty of reading time and well... I have devoured this wonderful book and now am going through it again more carefully... it is indeed FANTASTIC and the hole by hole on NGLA has me drooling to get back there and play it "correctly", make up for all my horrible play the first time around. Some day....
Thanks again George (and Gib)!
TH
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i, too, got to dive into my copy this weekend and would like to echo all the great (not good ) things said above. i expect that it will eventually rate as one of the all-time great architecure/ history books in golf. wonderful stuff, george!!
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George Bahto,
I just ordered 10 more copies and will contact you to meet at either The Knoll or ECCC.
The book is very interesting and a great gift.
Has NGLA given any thought to returning the 13th green to its outer boundary nearer the deep right side bunker, and if that was contemplated, what would happen to the bunker that would then be in the middle of the green ?
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Just got my copy 2 hours ago - can't wait for the business day to end!
What an amazing world we live in, when we can receive so much for so relatively little. Thanks George.
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Pat - you said: "May I suggest that the publisher send a complimentary copy of the book to each of CBM's golf clubs that had chapters devoted to them"
all that is already in the works - thanks
I'm amazed. When did the book business get into the business of actually marketing books?
Years ago, a friend of mine wrote a book about the homes of the presidents. Of course, the addresses of all of the homes -- many of which are historic sites and have gift shops -- were listed in the back of the book.
It never occurred to the publisher to sell the book through those gift shops.
My friend had to make that suggestion himself.
The publisher wondered if, by any chance, my friend had a list of the addresses of the president's homes.
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Patrick. you asked about ngla: "Has NGLA given any thought to returning the 13th green to its outer boundary nearer the deep right side bunker, and if that was contemplated, what would happen to the bunker that would then be in the middle of the green ? "
I don't know but i would doubt it - that green would really be too big i think - yes, the bunker would be gone - I think it was put in just to define the "new" putting surface better.
Do you realize how big that green would be side to side ? - likethe size of a double green. Talk about pin placements.
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I just got home tonight to find my copy which I'm busily perusing.
I'm in awe at the scope of the work and can only imagine what a labor of love it must have been to put together such an amazing, comprehensive gift to the game and to all of its disciples.
George; all I can say is thank you! ;D
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George Bahto:
Thank you very much for all the time and effort you obviously put into this book. Simply put, it's a treasure.
I agree with Pat Mucci. What a wonderful gift it will make.
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How awesome is the photo of the 6th at NGLA on page 98? I thought that alone was worth the price of the book.
If only I could somehow convince Patrick to post a similar photo of #1... :)
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George Bahto,
Yes, it would be a big green, but it is a par 3, at about 170.
And, the pin positions you would pick up on the right side would be spectacular.
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Aboout the 13th green:
I asked Karl about this last summer. He knew all about the former dimensions, but said it was impractical. Addtional groundscrew would be necessary because of the massive increase in square footage. Also, prep time in the mornings would be lengthened.
Of course, Karl has departed....
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von Hayek,
You may recall that the rear portion of the 11th green was reclaimed a few years ago, as was the front of the 10th green. With NGLA being Charles Blair MacDonald's masterpiece and the golf world recognizing its brilliance, its genius, why wouldn't the club want to restore that green as Charles Blair MacDonald originally designed it ? Just like the club did on # 10 and # 11.
Is # 13 green larger or smaller than greens # 3, # 6, # 7,
# 10 ?
I can't imagine the additional cost to the budget to maintain an expanded 13th green as having much of an impact at NGLA
It would seem to be a worthy, lasting endeavor for NGLA and all of GOLF.
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I've been reading my copy and still am confused about 2 holes.
The book seems to indicate that the 17th has changed especially after they put in the new gate. Is this hole original and after I played there a few months ago question if the 7 saucer type bunkers on the front right of the green are original.
The other hole which I love the picture of the original green is #15 on page 125. The original square green looks much more interesting then the current green. George, any chance they could restore this green or is it too severe?
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Joel:
It is very hard to follow what CB did at National - he fiddled with the course for over 25 years.
Those little bunkers just over the sand hill on 17 are original - they are there to catch the guy who thinks he can just feather a short shot over the sand hill in order to stay on the puttin surface. Remember he kept the greens really firm and that green certainly would not hold a shot very well if you were over to the right off the tee. When the green is soft the player knows he can land the ball well into the green and it will stay on. That's my take on it.
I don't think 15-green was ever changed from the original. I have seen expense records from the early days and and that indicated lots of $$ spent on the 8th, the 6th, 9th, 18th, 17th but never anything on 15. It could be where the picture was taken from (i've taken from there also) and it may also be that there was so little vegitation in that early photo that it just looks more severe. I've wondered about that also - the old picture is awesome.
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George, Gib,
fine job on the book. I also think Clock Tower Press deserves some kudos, as this is their initial public offering, so to speak, and it bodes well for the press that they got the book in such good form and that they managed to get it out to stores, inc. Borders, along with some other recent architecture titles that they now control.
It's not a great market for us writers, since the same crazed fanatics buy all of these books., But for us eaders, these last few years have been very good, I dare say. Hats off to Bahto and Papazian for adding to that trove.
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Fine book, but the photos are poor quality and disappointing.
Compare them to a book with professional photos: Classic Links of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland (Brian Morgan)
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David,
I read your post and went home and examined the photos and don't see where anything is of poor quality. Can you be specific?
Just out of curiosity.
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Gib:
I don't exactly agree with David C, but understand his comments. The Evanelist text is a treasure, a work we waited for a long time and weren't at all disappointed with when it finally arrived.
As for the photography, I might have made a slightly different decision when compiling the book. I see nothing wrong with what was included, but wonder if also including some limited work by the likes of a Joann Dost, Larry Lambrecht or John Henebry might have made sense. Of course, this would have increased the publishing costs, but the argument in favor is that The Evangelist is such a landmark book that it would have been worth it.
While I think NGLA was well documented, some professional photos of say Yale, for example, might have been a nice touch. It's a judgement call. I love the old black and white pictures included. They give a sense of going back to CB's day. But, the course is so rich with great stuff, I might have included a couple more modern pictures other than just the 9th and 13th.
Being one of what Brad Klein calls, the "crazed fanatics", I want to thank you and George once again. I'll enjoy the book for many years to come.
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Tim,
Interesting point. I cannot take credit for any of the stylistic decisions or photo work as my contribution was organizing and editing/rewriting text and captions only.
In defense of Clocktower however, this was already an expensive book to compile and believe it or not, there is still enormous amount of unused material that will go into the 2nd and 3rd books.
One thing about this subject is that there seems to be no bottom. Even today, George is still uncovering all sorts of new information and photos.
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Gib Papazian
In the general (NGLA, Piping Rock, Yale) the photos are shot in poor light and look grainy (very few, low light shots). Not terrible, but clearly shot by an amateur. Look at Larry Labrecht's low light photo on P 246 and I think the contrast is obvious.
"America's Linksland" which has the majority of its photos taken by Labrecht looks more polished from the photography standpoint.
The drawings are excellent in The Evangelist.
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Gib/David:
For perspective, I would refer you to Paul Daley's first two efforts: Links Golf and The Sandbelt.
I really liked Paul's first publishing effort with The Links. Maybe because it included lots of stuff on Ireland. But, I know people criticized the book for "amateur" photos. I came out thinking Paul did the right thing, not just from a cost point of view, but also because the "amateur" photos seemed to make the book more serious, I thought.
Obviously, Paul went in the opposite direction with The Sandbelt. The David Scaletti pictures were fabulous and appropriate: so little has been done to document Melbourne area courses.
Each book is something different requiring its own judgment call. Aren't we thankful that Geoff Shackelford stuck with black and white pictures in his Cypress Point book?
For The Evangelist (or its successors) a balance of old b/w, current amateur and maybe a few professional shots seems about right.
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Just got my copy last night.
Can't wait to look through it!
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David_C,
Okay, fair enough. You may send me your book and I'll refund your money personally. . . . . I'm short a copy or two anyway.
George and I had discussed purchasing a "wayback machine" to get a live photo of Macdonald and Raynor discussing how to get the Redan just right, but the cost of each book would have been $10,000 . . . . . .
All bullsh*t aside, it is the angles that the photos were taken from that is relevant, not the bells and whistles. IMNSHO George understands the precise look he wanted to convey in order to highlight the strategic arrangements.
To me, I would rather have an "amateur" shoot a photo and then illustrate his point with a drawing than some of the glossy photography I have seen that leaves famous holes somewhat unrecognizable because the composition is framed more for beauty than to educate the reader.
Just my opinion.. . . . . but I'm only the editor.
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On first glance last night, I couldn't help but notice that the book was very reminiscent of "Discovering Donald Ross."
It looks great!
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Gib P
No need to get so defensive, a bit of constructive criticism and :'(
Good photography is important, the angles are good but getting the right light isn't difficult, it just takes time. Look at Ran's profile of NGLA, an amateur photographer who got good light and interesting angles. So it needn't cost much either.
Would you say the photos of Biarritz holes at Yale and Piping Rock are good photos?
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Regarding the photographs in this wonderful book, I was suitably impressed. I don't think the comparisons to Donald Steel's books are fair, but I will make them nonetheless.
In DS's book Classic Links, the photos are indeed probably more stirring. However, they are predominantly of dramatic links features, such as closeups of dunes or wide expanses of the roling landscape. I LOVE those pictures, but I don't find them especially helpful from the perspective of golf course architecture - ie. I have a hard time noticing golf features.
In The Evangelist of Golf, by contrast, I think GB made more of an effort to capture architectural features, rather than broad shots of the landscape at NGLA, etc. Since I'm more of a GCA junkie, this helped me get my fix, so I loved these photos as well.
Regarding specific photos mentioned above at Yale & Piping Rock, I think a Biarritz is a really difficult concept to illustrate from the tee. At Yale, where the tee shot is so dramatic across the pond, I think it's almost impossible to get a good shot. I didn't fully understand the concept of the Biarritz till someone posted a side angle closeup of the green.
As I mentioned on a previous post, I think the photo on p. 98 of the 6th (Short) Hole at NGLA, GB did a wonderful job capturing the contours of the green, something quite difficult to do.
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Gib or George,
When are the other two books estimated to be published? If I'm right, I believe one is a history of NGLA and the other is a bio on Raynor, correct?
Do you have titles?
chris
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Chris - the other two books will be about a yr or less apart. The last book is not all Raynor but, for the most part, it will detail the founding of and course reviews of all the course the 3 men built - CB / SR and the Banks-guy. Lots of stuff good there. Drawings/sketches etc, lot of old photos - oh and yes, probably more amateur pictures.
Actually, I've not decided on a title of the final (and I mean final) book and any ideas for a title by you fellas would be appreciated.
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I just was at Amazon.com and noticed there are no reviews yet! For those of you who have finished reading the book, do George a favor and post a review there.
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I have received and peroused my copy. It is a long awaited treasure. It is one of those books that just flows on and on until it's nearly gone! Can't wait for the companion volumes.
Great job, Georgey. Two thumbs way up.
BillyV
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redanman:
Is 'perousing' your copy of the "Evangelist of Golf" just a far more aggressive and more animated way of perusing your copy of the "Evangelist of Golf"?
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George,
I am really enjoying the book, currently reading piece by piece. I hope you are there on Jan 11th so as to sign my copy.
On National, when they built the road to the "new" clubhouse, was there ever any thought to bringing it in off of Sebonac i.e. through Bayberry ?
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Tommy
A rousing perusal or a tyop. You decide.
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Mike: i never heard anything about coming in to the property in any different way - that was his buddy's property over there. In fact I think the old proshop was a building that belonged to Sabin and they just carted it in in the early days.
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On National, when they built the road to the "new" clubhouse, was there ever any thought to bringing it in off of Sebonac i.e. through Bayberry ?
Mike-
I'm sure George will correct me (please do), but it's always been my understanding that the road that caused the modification of 14 was mandated by the town of Southampton to provide public access to the Bay and there wasn't a choice to be made where they could route it.
-Charles
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Charles - never read it anyplace but it makes sense to me - perhaps a combination of a few things - I know CB wrote about the traffic problems and distractions of everyone driving thru the middle of the course as more and more play developed
He solved a lot of other problems with the new road - you had to walk across the 18th fairway to get to the beachclub - there was a problem of traffic from the old yacht basin to the clubhouse - the 14th needed lengthening as did the 17th
(and he got a new set of gates donated by his friend George Bourne and got his name put on them - the other set of gates were donated by Willie Vanderbilt and were know as the "Vanderbilt Gates" - you have to know this man, CBM, of "little ego" - hah - loved his name on the new gates)
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George:
Not since Bradley Klein's "Discovering Donald Ross" have I seen such a superb and fine example of how to honor a person's memory and work, but do it in such a stylish manner!
I am about 1/3 through with your book and I can't wait to get back to it!
Kudos!! :)
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The Evangelist of Golf and America's Linksland are offered for sale at my web site:
www.LongIslandGolfNews.com
It is a shame what you guys have been paying for these books.
Please drop by and take a look.
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Mr. Bahto,
I have just finished your book. Much of it I have read over a second time.
Thank you for taking me to places that I may never get the opportunity to see or play.
I am a greenkeeper just up the road from Tim Davis at Shoreacres. The first time I saw Shoreacres was in 1982, and it was more golfish than anything I had ever seen. I realized that there was something very special here. It was 10 years before I learned who the architect was, but that moment started my interest in golf course architecture.
Your book has filled in a lot of gaps in my understanding of these great golf holes. Thank you.
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I hope Paul Richards isn't suffering a form of "time compression." To write "not since" regarding the Ross book when it's all of one year old sure puts a lot of pressure on us writers to produce ever newer work. (Paul, you know I took no offense at that.) Actually, I think Sleeping Bear/Clock Tower deserves some credit here for encouraging us all to write these things and ensuring that they'll back it with quality production and distribution.
If I may express two dissenting views on the Macdonald book. I would love to have read more about the lives, character and social networks of these strange characters. George and Gib suggest some curiosities about Macdonald, but there's so much unmined here regarding CB's role in American golf, as well as the stunningly contrasting nature of Seth Raynor. I know it's an architecture book, and perhaps the material wasn't as readily available to do this kind of exploration as it was for Ross. But I kept wanting to know more about them as people and as visionaries.
The drawings are wonderful - excellent representations of strategic intent. Goodness, what a skill to be able to draw like that, George. But I have a secondary concern about the decision to use the same photos twice. I found about 20 photos that appear twice in the book, the bulk of them large format and color, and most of them of NGLA. I wonder why you opted to use the same photos when illustrating both the hole types as well as the later chapter hole-by-hole of NGLA. I rather wish you had relied upon a wider range of examples, and yes, perhaps of better quality.
Please don't think I'm condemning the book. On the contrary, I think it's a great contribution to the literature of classical design. But in the spirit of friendly criticism I think these issues worth discussing.
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Brad - thank you
about the double photos: Clock Tower was rushed getting this out and in that mad scamble because of the change in ownership, some of the corrections did not get done during thaose last few weeks - I was told there could be no more changes after I noticed the duplications - I agree - it really looks stupid
and a couple of the drawings were enlarged and the lines became too broad and ugly - again I was unable to get them to change things because they had gotten so behind
also - a lot of material was held back for the book on National
about the depth of info on Raynor - fella, there is none - what you see is all there is
Macdonald we will explore more in the NGLA book - again thanks
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George,
Congrats on a great book, it's a worthy addition to every golfer's collection.
When are you planning to release the upcoming book on NGLA?
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Brad:
Actually, I am not suffering from some type of "time compress". ;) I have read quite a few books on golf and golf architecture in the intervening time, so it may seem like a much longer period to me than the actual dates on the calendar.
Either way, both your book and George's are excellent and comprehensive examinations of the individuals who have contributed so much to gold course architecture and to the discussions on this web site.
:)
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George,
Your reply to Brad's friendly criticism highlights the book's quirks. Quirkiness seem entirely appropriate given the subject matter.
Santa was good to me and I am enjoying your work immensely. Kudo's to you and Gib.
Regards,
Mike
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Brad Klein said;
"If I may express two dissenting views on the Macdonald book. I would love to have read more about the lives, character and social networks of these strange characters. George and Gib suggest some curiosities about Macdonald, but there's so much unmined here regarding CB's role in American golf, as well as the stunningly contrasting nature of Seth Raynor. I know it's an architecture book, and perhaps the material wasn't as readily available to do this kind of exploration as it was for Ross. But I kept wanting to know more about them as people and as visionaries."
This is such a great point! Obviously there was plenty of material about MacDonald's life, his idiocyracies etc, his influences on all things to do with American golf but as Brad surmised that aspect of the man could be so voluminous as to appear virtually unmined, at this point.
MacDonald is often called the "Father of architecture" or at least the "Father of American architecture" but he was definitely so much more than that!
When one considers his age, born in 1859, the time when he became transfixed by TOC and the entire ethos of Scotish golf, 1872, as well as his so-called "dark years" when he had nowhere to play in America, or to even discuss golf in America, 1875-1892 (18 years), one can begin to see that C.B. MacDonald should definitely not just be called the "Father or American golf architecture" but the "Father of American golf".
He certainly was the "Evangelist of Golf (in America) but few seem to really realize just how much he alone may have not only started it all over here but how singly he was responsible for fostering golf and architecture in this country in so many ways!
So it does seem a wealth of not only material about him that may be unmined but certainly a greater wealth of understanding that needs to be mined!
In researching for a book on William Flynn, everywhere we turn to do with people who influenced Flynn--Geo Crump, Hugh Wilson etc, some of the earliest producers of good architecture in America, it's apparent that before they even waded into the thinking for their projects, they consulted C.B. MacDonald to one extent or another.
We even found an amazing wealth of material on Hugh Wilson, who with two men from the US Dept of Agriculture created the USGA's Green section. But before Wilson contacted those two men, (Piper and Oakley), in 1911, C.B. MacDonald had been there before him--and proceeded to advise Wilson on agronomy.
And certainly not the least of all of this unmined information would be the highly unusual personality of MacDonald. Could another man with a different personality have done all that he did? I doubt it!
Clearly, there may be some darker areas to him as well. Herculean egoism, arguments, possibly physical fights, orgiastic womanizing and opinionating on so many things!
None of this should be left uncovered, should be left unreported or sanitized either--it should all come out from a balanced historian.
It all makes him even more interesting and shows him to be the interesting quilt he apparently really was!
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Bumping this thread to see if anyone has any tips on how to acquire this book without getting mugged at the same time? Tom Doak’s new book (incredible by the way) has inspired me to start adding to my small collection and it appears that Mr. Bahto’s book has been out of print for many years. Would also appreciate recommendations on other noteworthy titles particular with illustrations of individual golf holes from a birds eye view. Here’s what I have acquired so far.
- Scotland’s Gift, CB Macdonald
- Classic Golf Hole Design, Cornish & Graves
- The Walker Cup, Simmonds
- Golden Age of Golf Design, Shackleford
- Anatomy of a Golf Course, Doak
- Cypress Point Club, Shackleford
- Methods of Early Golf Architecture, Various
- Getting to 18, Doak
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Bumping this thread to see if anyone has any tips on how to acquire this book without getting mugged at the same time? Tom Doak’s new book (incredible by the way) has inspired me to start adding to my small collection and it appears that Mr. Bahto’s book has been out of print for many years. Would also appreciate recommendations on other noteworthy titles particular with illustrations of individual golf holes from a birds eye view. Here’s what I have acquired so far.
- Scotland’s Gift, CB Macdonald
- Classic Golf Hole Design, Cornish & Graves
- The Walker Cup, Simmonds
- Golden Age of Golf Design, Shackleford
- Anatomy of a Golf Course, Doak
- Cypress Point Club, Shackleford
- Methods of Early Golf Architecture, Various
- Getting to 18, Doak
I'd very highly recommend The Links by Robert Hunter and Golf Architecture in America by George Thomas. They are among the most informative, and easiest to read and comprehend. Plus, I think the experts here would tell you, no golf course architecture library, however small, would be complete without them.
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Really appreciate these two suggestions Brian. Just ordered them. Thankfully there were plenty of hardcover editions to choose from on Amazon and EBay. Now if I could just get my hands on Mr. Bahto’s book...
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I have a copy of the book, purchased from a certain pro shop in Chicago which at the time had a stack of them. If I had known I would of bought all of them? ;)
It's a terrific book, and honestly the reason the price is so high is that it's one that I go back and read bits all the time. So why would I ever sell something that is such a great resource and source of enjoyment.
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Really appreciate these two suggestions Brian. Just ordered them. Thankfully there were plenty of hardcover editions to choose from on Amazon and EBay. Now if I could just get my hands on Mr. Bahto’s book...
Abebooks has several used copies.
Alas ...
They start at $650
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Really appreciate these two suggestions Brian. Just ordered them. Thankfully there were plenty of hardcover editions to choose from on Amazon and EBay. Now if I could just get my hands on Mr. Bahto’s book...
Abebooks has several used copies.
Alas ...
They start at $650
My recommendation would be to wait a few months. I have been exploring the idea of reprinting the book. It's not a done deal yet but it might save you several hundred dollars to wait. [Or, if you're a seller, you might want to lower your price now and make sure to sell before there is a flood of new copies on the market!]
A question, while it's on topic: the photography in the original book was pretty poor by today's standards, so we have discussed the possibility of substituting better photos. That would cost a little bit more [maybe $5 per book?]. I'm curious if people think that would be worth it or not.
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A question, while it's on topic: the photography in the original book was pretty poor by today's standards, so we have discussed the possibility of substituting better photos. That would cost a little bit more [maybe $5 per book?]. I'm curious if people think that would be worth it or not.
Definitely.
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Same here! Anything you produce will be of the highest quality so definitely count me in. Will anxiously wait in the meantime. Thanks for the heads-up.
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Same here! Anything you produce will be of the highest quality so definitely count me in. Will anxiously wait in the meantime. Thanks for the heads-up.
Same
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Really appreciate these two suggestions Brian. Just ordered them. Thankfully there were plenty of hardcover editions to choose from on Amazon and EBay. Now if I could just get my hands on Mr. Bahto’s book...
Tom,
Very interesting. Now I wish someone would work on re-publishing “Crump’s Dream”!
Abebooks has several used copies.
Alas ...
They start at $650
My recommendation would be to wait a few months. I have been exploring the idea of reprinting the book. It's not a done deal yet but it might save you several hundred dollars to wait. [Or, if you're a seller, you might want to lower your price now and make sure to sell before there is a flood of new copies on the market!]
A question, while it's on topic: the photography in the original book was pretty poor by today's standards, so we have discussed the possibility of substituting better photos. That would cost a little bit more [maybe $5 per book?]. I'm curious if people think that would be worth it or not.
-
Same here! Anything you produce will be of the highest quality so definitely count me in. Will anxiously wait in the meantime. Thanks for the heads-up.
Same
Ditto
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A question, while it's on topic: the photography in the original book was pretty poor by today's standards, so we have discussed the possibility of substituting better photos. That would cost a little bit more [maybe $5 per book?]. I'm curious if people think that would be worth it or not.
Definitely.
Agreed -- having read the original, it could be updated with better pics with no harm done to the original's place in golf architecture literature.
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Hopefully you rewrite some of it. The few pages on Sleepy Hollow are embarrassing.
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Yeah, because the guy who edited and rewrote the book clearly sucks as a writer.
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I am in.
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A question, while it's on topic: the photography in the original book was pretty poor by today's standards, so we have discussed the possibility of substituting better photos. That would cost a little bit more [maybe $5 per book?]. I'm curious if people think that would be worth it or not.
I think it would be worth it to upgrade the photos and would be interested in buying a copy.
The bumping of this thread made me check the current online prices for another book I’ve wanted to read for years - your The Life and Work of Dr. Alister MacKenzie but it too remains at sky high prices on the secondary sites. I thought I had struck gold when I saw it on your website but then spotted the ‘out of stock’ notice. Do you have any plans to reprint that book at some point?
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The bumping of this thread made me check the current online prices for another book I’ve wanted to read for years - your The Life and Work of Dr. Alister MacKenzie but it too remains at sky high prices on the secondary sites. I thought I had struck gold when I saw it on your website but then spotted the ‘out of stock’ notice. Do you have any plans to reprint that book at some point?
It's possible, but more complicated since there were two co-authors who would have to be on board - one of whom has passed away and for whom I have no contact info.
Also, there is much more info today for MacKenzie than there was twenty years ago, so that book would really have to be updated. So I will probably just wait with the rest of you for Neil Crafter to write his book on MacKenzie.
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Second on the MacKenzie Book and another vote for new pictures.
Also I randomly found that there is a publisher that has in the last few months been republishing out of print GCA classics called Coventry House Publishers https://www.coventrybooks.com/books (https://www.coventrybooks.com/books). You can find their stuff on amazon. Currently have Cold and Alison, CB MacDonald, Hunter, Thomas, Mackenzie, Methods of Early Golf Architecture, etc. I haven't purchased one of their reprints yet but had not come across them before and thought others might be interested (especially since the Thomas book is $14 not 400).
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Tom Doak-
You have the publishing rights to "The Evangelist of Golf"? I have one of the originals signed by George and Gib Papazian. Doubtful that I would buy the new "improved" version. The one I have gets it done fine.
I know that George was nearly done with Vol. 2 before he passed, waiting for editing, pictures, illustrations, etc. I was under the impression that Gib and maybe Ran were to complete the project. Is this not the case?
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Tom Doak-
You have the publishing rights to "The Evangelist of Golf"? I have one of the originals signed by George and Gib Papazian. Doubtful that I would buy the new "improved" version. The one I have gets it done fine.
I know that George was nearly done with Vol. 2 before he passed, waiting for editing, pictures, illustrations, etc. I was under the impression that Gib and maybe Ran were to complete the project. Is this not the case?
Lou:
The reprint is not a done deal yet, but in discussion as they say.
I was given a copy of the manuscript for George's book on Raynor at his funeral, or shortly thereafter. It was a long way from a completed book! There was discussion of a joint effort to complete it (Gib, Ran, myself, Gil Hanse) but nothing has come of that as we have all been busy with our own stuff. Honestly, it needs significant effort by someone to get it across the finish line.
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Second on the MacKenzie Book and another vote for new pictures.
Also I randomly found that there is a publisher that has in the last few months been republishing out of print GCA classics called Coventry House Publishers https://www.coventrybooks.com/books (https://www.coventrybooks.com/books). You can find their stuff on amazon. Currently have Cold and Alison, CB MacDonald, Hunter, Thomas, Mackenzie, Methods of Early Golf Architecture, etc. I haven't purchased one of their reprints yet but had not come across them before and thought others might be interested (especially since the Thomas book is $14 not 400).
I have never seen, in person, a first edition of any of the famous golden age books. Are the pictures of as poor of quality as the reprints?
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I have never seen, in person, a first edition of any of the famous golden age books. Are the pictures of as poor of quality as the reprints?
The photos in Hunter's Thomas's books were awesome.
I'm not familiar with the publisher Adam mentioned, but I have seen some knock-offs of these books that were done very cheaply - the poor quality scans are okay for the text but they stink for the photos and drawings. Once a book is out of copyright it's likely there will be someone who does a poor version so they can be cheapest available, and in those cases, you get what you pay for.
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TD,
George gave me a look of the manuscript for Vol. 1 at Kiawah Island before it went through the final stages of editing and the pics, drawings, illustrations, etc. were organized. It was months, maybe six or so, before the book was published. In one of our last communications, George stated that his work on Vol 2 was mostly done and waiting organizing, editing, illustrations etc. I did see an email that it really had a ways to go. I am very interested in this volume as I have enjoyed Raynor's (and Banks?) work a lot, but can't get around that he didn't play golf and mostly replicated templates of holes where they fit well on the land. To do this as well as he did, I think it would take artistic talent/creativity, something that one doesn't usually associate with engineers.
I sent George a scorecard for CC of Charleston back in 2010 and he said that Silva had worked on the course and that though he hadn't played it, he'd visited it a few times and:
"however I did make an interesting find the last time I was there ......
"right down the street fm CCC - a muni built by Raynor - includes a road hole with a road behind .... some deserted bunkering between the holes etc"
Do you know what course he was talking about?
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Lou,
Has to be Charleston Municipal (aka The Muni). Really fun course that I believe is going through some renovations.
Mark
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The Muni is the best.
I think it was proven that Raynor did not design it. Regardless it's still an awesome spot.
Haven't seen it since all the renovation work. They are effectively blowing the course up and throwing around the Raynor name. I always thought that all the course really needed was some TLC, tree work, and mowing line restoration to be really awesome but oh well here comes the multi million $$ renovation.
Also, it has maybe my favorite 19th hole in golf.
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I believe Charleston Muni was designed by John Adams a few years after Raynor’s death.
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Here are a few digitized books you can access for free. The pictures may not be as good as having the real thing, but these digitized books are easier to search and very accessible. There are several others on the HathiTrust site as well.
Scotland’s Gift: Golf by Charles Blair Macdonald: https://hdl.handle.net/2027/uiug.30112058552339 (https://hdl.handle.net/2027/uiug.30112058552339)
Golf Architecture in America, It’s Strategy and Construction by George Thomas Jr.: [size=78%]https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015007183372 (https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015007183372)[/size]
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It always seemed to me that the four pages on Sleepy Hollow were intentionally embarrassing because George felt the architectural malpractice performed on the course over the years was embarrassing. Sadly, George passed prior to the "restoration" work being complete and one wonders the extent to which his influence would have changed for the better how the course looks and plays today.
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Mr T Doak,
At what stage is the progress on a reprint? It would be excellent to think of the possibility of getting a copy, having read about the book for so long.
Best
Darragh
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Here are a few digitized books you can access for free. The pictures may not be as good as having the real thing, but these digitized books are easier to search and very accessible. There are several others on the HathiTrust site as well.
Scotland’s Gift: Golf by Charles Blair Macdonald: https://hdl.handle.net/2027/uiug.30112058552339 (https://hdl.handle.net/2027/uiug.30112058552339)
Golf Architecture in America, It’s Strategy and Construction by George Thomas Jr.: [size=78%]https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015007183372 (https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015007183372)[/size]
Seeing the University of Illinois in the first example above brings back sweet memories. I managed to get them to allow me to do a senior project on golf course design, and I discovered that all those great old books were in the "stacks", i.e. in basement storage for really old books that rarely get checked out. In fact, I wasn't allowed to leave the basement to read them. I probably got all C's in every other class I had because for weeks I arrived at the stacks every morning and read these as long as I could.
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Here are a few digitized books you can access for free. The pictures may not be as good as having the real thing, but these digitized books are easier to search and very accessible. There are several others on the HathiTrust site as well.
Scotland’s Gift: Golf by Charles Blair Macdonald: https://hdl.handle.net/2027/uiug.30112058552339 (https://hdl.handle.net/2027/uiug.30112058552339)
Golf Architecture in America, It’s Strategy and Construction by George Thomas Jr.: [size=78%]https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015007183372 (https://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015007183372)[/size]
Seeing the University of Illinois in the first example above brings back sweet memories. I managed to get them to allow me to do a senior project on golf course design, and I discovered that all those great old books were in the "stacks", i.e. in basement storage for really old books that rarely get checked out. In fact, I wasn't allowed to leave the basement to read them. I probably got all C's in every other class I had because for weeks I arrived at the stacks every morning and read these as long as I could.
It is a good thing my college library wasn't as good as yours.
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Mr T Doak,
At what stage is the progress on a reprint? It would be excellent to think of the possibility of getting a copy, having read about the book for so long.
Best
Darragh
Unofficially, it will be back in print this spring. We'll put out the details in a month's time.
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Mr T Doak,
At what stage is the progress on a reprint? It would be excellent to think of the possibility of getting a copy, having read about the book for so long.
Best
Darragh
Unofficially, it will be back in print this spring. We'll put out the details in a month's time.
Thank you, that's great
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Mr T Doak,
At what stage is the progress on a reprint? It would be excellent to think of the possibility of getting a copy, having read about the book for so long.
Best
Darragh
Unofficially, it will be back in print this spring. We'll put out the details in a month's time.
That is very exciting news. Thank you.
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Terrific news. I was lucky to get one at the original price ($85) right before the market went crazy, and it continues to be crazy. As of this posting, there are six copies on eBay at prices from $450 to $1,148.99. Once the second printing is released, those prices should drop so someone can get a first at a reasonable price and a second at list price. A win-win except for sellers.
Kudos to Tom, and I presume Brian Lewis, the man at Sleeping Bear / Clock Tower Press when it was originally issued, for making this happen.
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Terrific news. I was lucky to get one at the original price ($85) right before the market went crazy, and it continues to be crazy. As of this posting, there are six copies on eBay at prices from $450 to $1,148.99. Once the second printing is released, those prices should drop so someone can get a first at a reasonable price and a second at list price. A win-win except for sellers.
Kudos to Tom, and I presume Brian Lewis, the man at Sleeping Bear / Clock Tower Press when it was originally issued, for making this happen.
So you're saying I should sell my two copies... ;)
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Terrific news. I was lucky to get one at the original price ($85) right before the market went crazy, and it continues to be crazy. As of this posting, there are six copies on eBay at prices from $450 to $1,148.99. Once the second printing is released, those prices should drop so someone can get a first at a reasonable price and a second at list price. A win-win except for sellers.
Kudos to Tom, and I presume Brian Lewis, the man at Sleeping Bear / Clock Tower Press when it was originally issued, for making this happen.
So you're saying I should sell my two copies... ;)
I was thinking the same thing.
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Reprint is orderable. https://www.doakgolf.com/product/the-evangelist-of-golf-by-george-bahto/ (https://www.doakgolf.com/product/the-evangelist-of-golf-by-george-bahto/)
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There goes my retirement plan
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Damn, I should have sold mine..
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So excited for this, I have read this book multiple times. When I have had access to it. I consider it probably the gold standard in architectural history. As it's approachable but yet wonderfully deep.
I wish that George had continued to be here to see the blossoming of the appreciation for C.B.'s work and the recreation of the Lido. Also selfishly it might have given him time to complete his book on C.B's protege Seth Raynor. Which continues to be one of the great what ifs for me in the world of golf architectural literary cannon.
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Even though I already own a copy of the original, I went ahead and bought another copy of the new edition. Happy to support the re-print.
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So excited for this, I have read this book multiple times. When I have had access to it. I consider it probably the gold standard in architectural history. As it's approachable but yet wonderfully deep.
I wish that George had continued to be here to see the blossoming of the appreciation for C.B.'s work and the recreation of the Lido. Also selfishly it might have given him time to complete his book on C.B's protege Seth Raynor. Which continues to be one of the great what ifs for me in the world of golf architectural literary cannon.
Not George but still good.
https://back9press.com/pages/raynor
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Even though I already own a copy of the original, I went ahead and bought another copy of the new edition. Happy to support the re-print.
Likewise. I can loan the second edition out without making the loanee sign a form. ;D Looking forward to it.
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Really glad this is being reprinted. I had an extra copy that I gave to a friend, and now I'm able to have a backup.
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I only had one copy of it myself.
Fortunately I knew the copyright holder, so we could do the reprint.
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I recently finished reading the reprinted edition for the first time, and the details--particularly in the chapters devoted to NGLA--are terrific. It helped flesh out better context behind Macdonald's autobiography.
Two immediate questions came to mind:
1) Does anyone know of a good resource online for exploring 1920s-40s aerials of Long Island? I'd be interested in poking around, especially if there are images of the original Deepdale and Links Club.
2) This might deserve a separate thread if any historians have more info, but the brief chapter on Glen Head's Womens National Golf Club, founded by Marion Hollins and later acquired (then sold off) by the Creek Club, interested me. Bahto makes a comment that Hollins took her own scouting trip to the UK in anticipation of the club being developed, which has been referenced elsewhere on the DG by Wayne Morrison and more recently Bret Lawrence. Bahto's phrasing implies that she was in search of ideal holes for a woman's game, which may have resulted in an entirely different list of ideal/template holes selected from the UK classics. Were any specific holes from her trips noted anywhere? It'd be interesting to compare differences between Macdonald's ideals and Hollins, if she ever produced such a list.
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I recently finished reading the reprinted edition for the first time, and the details--particularly in the chapters devoted to NGLA--are terrific. It helped flesh out better context behind Macdonald's autobiography.
Two immediate questions came to mind:
1) Does anyone know of a good resource online for exploring 1920s-40s aerials of Long Island? I'd be interested in poking around, especially if there are images of the original Deepdale and Links Club.
2) This might deserve a separate thread if any historians have more info, but the brief chapter on Glen Head's Womens National Golf Club, founded by Marion Hollins and later acquired (then sold off) by the Creek Club, interested me. Bahto makes a comment that Hollins took her own scouting trip to the UK in anticipation of the club being developed, which has been referenced elsewhere on the DG by Wayne Morrison and more recently Bret Lawrence. Bahto's phrasing implies that she was in search of ideal holes for a woman's game, which may have resulted in an entirely different list of ideal/template holes selected from the UK classics. Were any specific holes from her trips noted anywhere? It'd be interesting to compare differences between Macdonald's ideals and Hollins, if she ever produced such a list.
For question 1 I used to use the Stonybrook University site: https://guides.library.stonybrook.edu/c.php?g=35399&p=224887
The various County GIS sites might also have some resources
Pretty sure I'm forgetting something, hopefully someone else can chime in.
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Michael,
Here's a slideshow I assembled years ago with a number of aerials including, for Deepdale, Oakland, Lido and Links.
https://goo.gl/photos/wwArnTF9n4WVY23u7 (https://goo.gl/photos/wwArnTF9n4WVY23u7)
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I recently finished reading the reprinted edition for the first time, and the details--particularly in the chapters devoted to NGLA--are terrific. It helped flesh out better context behind Macdonald's autobiography.
Two immediate questions came to mind:
1) Does anyone know of a good resource online for exploring 1920s-40s aerials of Long Island? I'd be interested in poking around, especially if there are images of the original Deepdale and Links Club.
2) This might deserve a separate thread if any historians have more info, but the brief chapter on Glen Head's Womens National Golf Club, founded by Marion Hollins and later acquired (then sold off) by the Creek Club, interested me. Bahto makes a comment that Hollins took her own scouting trip to the UK in anticipation of the club being developed, which has been referenced elsewhere on the DG by Wayne Morrison and more recently Bret Lawrence. Bahto's phrasing implies that she was in search of ideal holes for a woman's game, which may have resulted in an entirely different list of ideal/template holes selected from the UK classics. Were any specific holes from her trips noted anywhere? It'd be interesting to compare differences between Macdonald's ideals and Hollins, if she ever produced such a list.
For question 1 I used to use the Stonybrook University site: https://guides.library.stonybrook.edu/c.php?g=35399&p=224887 (https://guides.library.stonybrook.edu/c.php?g=35399&p=224887)
The various County GIS sites might also have some resources
Pretty sure I'm forgetting something, hopefully someone else can chime in.
In the book "Champion in a Man's World", by David Outerbridge, pages 90-92, it discusses how Hollins left for the UK in search of ideal holes for Women's National Golf and Tennis Club. With the assistance of Cecil Leitch, she played over 20 courses. She documented the trip with notes, sketches, photos and movies.
She turned these materials over to Devereaux Emmet who was to design the course. The first hole was reminiscent of the 7th hole at the new course at Walton Heath. The 4th was a copy of the 11th at Northampton. The Principal's Nose made an appearance on the 17th. The 12th hole at Least women's National was fashioned after the 3rd at Mid-Surrey.
She and Emmet also looked for inspiration at courses on a Long Island. The 5th at Women's was similar to the 5th at her home course, Westbrook. The 8th was an adaptation of the 5th at NGLA. Lastly, the 11th was a close approximation to the 13th at Piping Rock.
The author then explains that rather than use her monster tee shots, she used US Champion Alexa Sterling's 175 yard carry as the fair but testing standard for tee placement.
The book is very well researched and an interesting read. A great addition to any golf library. It's kind of hard to believe there has never been any kind of documentary or movie made about this remarkable woman.
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Charlie, Colin, Cal--all of these are terrific replies. Thank you so much. I'll enjoy looking over those aerials during the holidays, and will keep an eye out on getting a copy of the book as well. Appreciate it!
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Adding in a couple of stories on Women’s National Golf & Tennis Club. The first story was written by Marion Hollins. (I borrowed these photos from Sven’s Re-engineering Raynor thread.)
Golf Illustrated., January 1923:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/eb62cd25-7746-4007-8bad-ba7edb48ae2f.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/eb62cd25-7746-4007-8bad-ba7edb48ae2f.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/2b270325-0bb4-40db-a1d2-7bd7bae590b3.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/2b270325-0bb4-40db-a1d2-7bd7bae590b3.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/0c71a884-402f-4d37-89f6-a9df105803ba.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/0c71a884-402f-4d37-89f6-a9df105803ba.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/7362aa88-afb2-4580-975b-a59abc7e7dae.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/7362aa88-afb2-4580-975b-a59abc7e7dae.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/713cbef2-2554-4f70-8b34-e02b62b1d897.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/713cbef2-2554-4f70-8b34-e02b62b1d897.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
Golf Illustrated., March 1924:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/4c31ba9e-0829-4209-be08-4100af1a933e.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/4c31ba9e-0829-4209-be08-4100af1a933e.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/36e90876-1ba3-4182-8c4e-7708d40b8280.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/36e90876-1ba3-4182-8c4e-7708d40b8280.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/89ecbeb2-c20a-489c-8843-bffb60a97472.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/89ecbeb2-c20a-489c-8843-bffb60a97472.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/bb69c284-a22e-4e93-9af8-d4350736f6d2.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/bb69c284-a22e-4e93-9af8-d4350736f6d2.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/71901f0f-3efe-49d9-8451-6108e40bb544.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/71901f0f-3efe-49d9-8451-6108e40bb544.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/b83eaabc-fda3-4de5-9f47-127534d6b91c.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/b83eaabc-fda3-4de5-9f47-127534d6b91c.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/5b3a07f3-1571-4b00-b5ec-638b774feb69.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/5b3a07f3-1571-4b00-b5ec-638b774feb69.webp?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
I use the Nassau County GIS viewer to find 1926 aerial photographs from Nassau County, New York:
https://lrv.nassaucountyny.gov/map/ (https://lrv.nassaucountyny.gov/map/)
On the right hand side select: “Layers” tab
Then click the second box down to view 1926 Nassau County aerials.
Bret
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I'm too lazy to look it up but wasn't Hollis also behind the original Bethesda CC in Bethesda, MD? I know it was originally (1930s?) intended to be the "women's" answer to nearby Burning Tree but don't remember the details.
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I'm too lazy to look it up but wasn't Hollis also behind the original Bethesda CC in Bethesda, MD? I know it was originally (1930s?) intended to be the "women's" answer to nearby Burning Tree but don't remember the details.
I think the original 9 were done by Fred Findlay, and a second 9 later added by a local pro, Al Jamison, who may have been the pro at Bethesda at the time. Jamison worked with Ed Ault when Ault was starting out, and I think Findlay mentored both. Arthur Hills with MacDonald & Sons redid the entire works in the 90s.
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Bernie - Don't dispute anything you say but I thought the overall vision was a woman (Hollis?). If I remember correctly she would land her plane on the property to survey progress. I could be way off.....
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JC,
I don’t think it was Marion Hollins at Women’s National Country Club in Bethesda, Md in 1929-1930. Marion Hollins was living on the west coast and was somewhere between Cypress Point and Pasatiempo at that point in her life. I think the Women’s National Country Club was more socially focused than golf focused from the few articles I have seen. If you search Womens National County Club on loc.gov newspapers, you can find several stories on the club. I am including one of the early articles I found (right column):
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/6d98d732-6f9a-47dd-8643-9ab40c50ae51.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/6d98d732-6f9a-47dd-8643-9ab40c50ae51.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
Coincidentally, Miss Edith Cummings, the 1923 Women’s Amateur champ was a founding member of Women’s National Golf and Tennis Club while Edith Mae Cummings, an author was a founding member at Women’s National Country Club. Any relation to these famous Cummings’?
Bret
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Thank you......
reading this thread cost me $260.
Of course I had to go on Doak's site and purchase the The Evangelist of Golf as well as The Life and Work of Dr. Alister MacKenzie.
I am playing Moortown and Alwoodley next July so figured why not!
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1) Does anyone know of a good resource online for exploring 1920s-40s aerials of Long Island? I'd be interested in poking around, especially if there are images of the original Deepdale and Links Club.
Nassau County's government website has a "Land Record Viewer" with aerial photos from 1926 and 1950. The website is terribly clunky to use but the photography is pretty good. Unfortunately those particular dates mean any short-lived courses that came and went during the Depression era (there are many) aren't captured. But anything built before 1926 can be seen, some better than others.
https://lrv.nassaucountyny.gov/map/
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JC,
I don’t think it was Marion Hollins at Women’s National Country Club in Bethesda, Md in 1929-1930. Marion Hollins was living on the west coast and was somewhere between Cypress Point and Pasatiempo at that point in her life. I think the Women’s National Country Club was more socially focused than golf focused from the few articles I have seen. If you search Womens National County Club on loc.gov newspapers, you can find several stories on the club. I am including one of the early articles I found (right column):
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/6d98d732-6f9a-47dd-8643-9ab40c50ae51.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/a262d2bd-f3be-467b-a9cd-2816e5d7d000/6d98d732-6f9a-47dd-8643-9ab40c50ae51.png?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds)
Coincidentally, Miss Edith Cummings, the 1923 Women’s Amateur champ was a founding member of Women’s National Golf and Tennis Club while Edith Mae Cummings, an author was a founding member at Women’s National Country Club. Any relation to these famous Cummings’?
Bret
Informative as always Bret. Related? Likely not as I come from a long line of Dis Extinguished New England farmers! :-)
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In the book, Geoge Bahto included his own drawing of CBM's version of Shinnecock. Other graphics of his routing I have come across include a 1930 aerial that was unique in that it had the outgoing CBM/Raynor course and Flynn's coming up alongside it and lastly a drawing by Flynn with his routing layed over the CBMs/Raynor course - found in Wayne's Morrison's book, "The Nature Faker." Are there any other routings of CBM's Shinny available for public consumption?
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Two immediate questions came to mind:
1) Does anyone know of a good resource online for exploring 1920s-40s aerials of Long Island? I'd be interested in poking around, especially if there are images of the original Deepdale and Links Club.
Michael--question should also apply to courses in Queens, just west of Nassau County. Prior to the end of WWII, golf in Queens was as good as golf was in Nassau...taxes, increased land values, and demand for homes from returning GI's and their new spouses after WW II made Queens golf totally uneconomic and it basically had disappeared or moved east to Nassau and Suffolk counties by the mid 1950's (except for a few still remaining NYC munis)