Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: JakaB on April 19, 2005, 09:17:46 AM
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the poor. This has been a very trying couple of days because I have been nervous that when the white smoke blows my name will be called. What a life changing experience being Pope would be....but....since this is an architectural web site we need to focus on the possiblility of being the Pope of golf as opposed to the Vicar of Christ. One of the great debates of recent history is what to do with all the great treasures of the church and that relates directly to all the great golf courses of the world that are only open to a select few. So, if you were the P'o'G would you open the great courses of the world to the poor. Would this grow the game or be a short term fix that eventually destroys everything golf has become over the last 500 years.
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As a card-carrying member, Jaka, I also am nervous I may get my name called (let's just hope it ain't Huckaby)!
In response to your question, I would say no. The great places like Augusta, PVGC, NGLA just wouldn't be the same in my opinion if they were open to everybody.
It's why they are called "clubs." Plus, I think if you worked really hard and wanted to get access to these places you could. I'm for people working for it.
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If the Pope of Golf opened all courses to the poor, a boom in croquet among the elite would surely follow.
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We have no worries about the Jesuit trained Mr Huckaby being elected today at The Vatican. There will be no Jesuits as Pope in our lifetimes!
On the golf side, I agree with Tony, and I think you would be surprised how little 90% of the golfers would care.
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Just to soothe your nerves, I can report that when the Cardinals contacted me yesterday, I declined the invitation. My feeling was I am far too connected to the Presbyterian church these days, and the world is not ready for the ecumenical fence-building my papacy would bring about. Thus the black smoke this morning.
As for the question at hand re golf, man this is a tough one. For years I have railed on the US private club system, wanting it to be more like the UK, where visitors can have access. But with age and experience has come wisdom, seeing the realities that make this impossible here in the US.
So if I am made Pontificate of Golf, no way I make the sweeping change to open up all private clubs... not until our US tax laws and other key issues regarding public accomodation are changed. Change those and then hell yes, we adopt the UK way of doing things.
TH
ps to Mike - to make matters worse, from birth through grade 12 I was trained by Carmelites. There's even less chance of one of them becoming Pope than a Jesuit. ;)
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Forget the shoes - what HAT does the PoG wear whilst playing? The normal papal hat won't exactly help with the sun. Putting a visor on that seems tacky. I am quite troubled by this.
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John - Very tough call re: the shoes. I think you have to go with the special shoes. That completes the ensemble. However, if you have purple shoes, are you no longer a purist??
Plus, I'm with Huck. What about the hat? This is a key piece and will you put a driver head at the base of the crook?
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I think everyone on this site who has not read it, needs to read Butch Berry's book Scotsman's Dream. The end game of the story would fit this thread.
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No Carmelites? That rules out Huntley.... :'(
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Certainly not until the same pope was willing to acknowledge that the spread of aids in poor Africa could be quelled with the approved use of birth control...sorry that is too political ;D
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Be careful, Shivas....
He might just outlaw putters longer than his crozier. Bye Bye Broomhandles!
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Another more serious issue the P'o'G needs to consider is how to make women feel like they are vital to the game without screwing everything up at the same time....any ideas.
Well, the Catholic method of keeping the females subservient to and helping the men might be worth investigating.
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Just to soothe your nerves, I can report that when the Cardinals contacted me yesterday, I declined the invitation.
What Huck failed to mention is that he did accept a position with the Vatican Golf Association to be its Chief Rater ...
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Shhhh! That gets announced when the white smoke appears.
;D
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With the odds for the new Pope leaning towards a Cardinal from a traditionally non-golfing nation
The Fav in the Conclave] (http://www.popebetting.com/betting.php)
the opportunity for the new Pope is to spread the great game of golf to non-golfing nations. We crow about seaside duneslinks as the perfect spot for building a course, there must be some true linksland along the Gulf of Guinea in Nigeria.
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It would be nice to see the private establishments open to locals on a very limited basis.. Maybe a town day a year.. Vermont Golf Association has "State Days" All the privates (publics as well) allow play to members of the State Golf Association one day a year for a nominal fee.. Ekwanok is the only course missing from the list.. I've played just about every course of interest in Vermont, except Ekwanok. I have bitter beer face!!
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1. We sell Pebble - hell it's been done so many times, why not one more?
2. The golf cardinals meet at Sand Hills, the US home of spirituality and golf. St. Andrews is too obvious and security would be too difficult. I could stay dead in peace if they met at Dornoch also. ;)
TH
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Letterman's Top Ten
[From January 3, 2005]
Top Ten Signs Your Neighbor Is Vying To Be The Next Pope
Often stops at Costco to buy communal wafers in bulk.
Threatens to send you to hell if your dog craps on his lawn again.
Short on money, he just made the Domino's kid a saint.
Regularly offers to baptize you with the garden hose.
His name is Kenny, but he asks you to call him John Paul.
Refers to his studio apartment as the "Little Vatican."
The son-of-a-bitch keeps hitting on your wife in Latin.
You ask how he's feeling and he replies, "Oh, quite Popey, thank you!"
He asks if you want to go giant hat shopping.
Book on his coffee table: "How to turn your Ford Focus into a popemobile."
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As for the question:
I would assign one Cardinal (archbishops, especially Irish ones, need not apply) to man the gates at each of the courses that I, as Pope (in collaboration with the defrocked former Cardinal Whitten of Golf Digest -- whose guidance will be studiously ignored), have chosen to be safeguarded against the barbarians.
Anyone -- ANYONE! -- would be welcome to approach the gates, for inspection as a potential entrant to the hallowed grounds.
The Gatekeeper Cardinal's mission would be to interview all applicants for playing privileges -- seeking to determine whether their love of the game and appreciation of the course-at-hand are sufficient to merit inclusion in The Elect.
Those would be the only criteria. The Cardinal would be forbidden to make judgments based on applicants' appearance -- or to ask any questions about an applicant's income, assets, secondary or post-secondary schooling, ancestors, religion, race, color or class (if any).
(I'm still awaiting Divine Guidance on the sexual-preference thing. ... Just kiddin', boys!)
Any applicant who mentioned his Rater Card would be summarily rejected.
How would I keep my Cardinals honest? Each of my Gatekeeper Cardinals would take his post inside a small, starkly appointed but comfortable one-room, two-section structure just outside the gates, with an opaque screen separating the Cardinal from the supplicant. This structure will be known as an "Accessional."
How's that for Papal bull?
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Well done, Pope Daniel I. That is a fine Papal Bull. It's also fine papal bull.
Since this is a fantasy world, I guess my caveats about US tax laws and the like have no relevance. So yes, well done. That would be a fine way to handle these things.
The funny thing is, in a strange way that's not wholly different from how things are now. The key is to find the proper Accessionals. That is difficult. But once found, true love of the game seems to be the deciding factor, at least in some very great places and with some very great people.
TH
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John,
....they'd meet in the Sistine Chapel of golf, where else?
As for the shoes, the PG would have to go spikeless. Imagine how funny he'd look in a kneeling position with all the nails removed from spiked shoes.
If from their inception the "great" courses in this country were more accessible I feel we would have seen a more relaxed and more knowledgeable culture of golfers.
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My greatest fear is that the PoG will let you visit all the great venues in the world (and maybe those in the beyond....), but if you aren't confirmed in his church he won't let you play from the tips.
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Wow. I could care less about playing the tips. My greatest fear is that the PoG will let you visit all the great venues in the world (and maybe those in the beyond....), but if you aren't confirmed in his church he won't let you play at all - you just watch from the clubhouse.
And Jim - great call re the Sistine Chapel of Golf. Duh... that is the very obvious answer. Yes I am very slow, very often.
;D
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My greatest fear is that the PoG will let you visit all the great venues in the world (and maybe those in the beyond....), but if you aren't confirmed in his church he won't let you play from the tips.
Don't worry, Rihc. That's the Church of Scotland!
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damn that smoke is white.
Line of the year -- to date.
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It's true. The bells have tolled. This is actually pretty darn cool!!!
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My protestant wife, inlaws and friends are all immensely jealous these days... this is a very cool process indeed, very fun to watch and follow.
Now we just need an announcement - when does that happen?
My money's still on one of the Italians. An insider clued me into that last week. But we shall see... I do lose bets all the time...
Is betting on who becomes the next Pope a venial or mortal sin?
;)
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Is betting on who becomes the next Pope a venial or mortal sin?
It's a Cardinal sin.
P.S. Talk about your potential scandals! Point-shaving in the Conclave!
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"Cardinal sin" - love it!
JK - darn it but we don't have any TV's here, not any that get decent reception anyway... but I am off to seek one out. Thanks.
Another cool aspect of this is what name he chooses... many think he'll be John Paul III... but that could go many ways. No bets placed on that one.
Come on Scola!
TH
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Damno illo fumo albus
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Rumor on the streets is that Huckaby turned them down because he has better access as a civilian. ;D
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Rumor on the streets is that Huckaby turned them down because he has better access as a civilian. ;D
Damn right. Lots of places the Pope of Golf would be scorned. One must keep one's options open.
JC - excellent Latin. Rosa alba est, my friend.
;D ;D
I can't find a TV!
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I'm picking the African fellow. It would be an awesome statement.
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Whats the delay? I think someone asked for a recount.
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I'm picking the African fellow. It would be an awesome statement.
Oh wow, in terms of a statement I would cry hallelujah right out loud here in the office if Arinde gets it.
I just don't see my church being that progressive... as much as I would love it... and my mother could then die happy....
Thus my money went with my head, not my heart.
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You gotta love this. Huck is getting his papal updates from Golf Club Atlas.
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Just be careful if Pope Law sends a priest to the mountains.
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Huck,
We can dream, though, right.
I'm not even Catholic but it would be an inspiring and inspired selection.
By the way, John Cullum, this site has better coverage than CNN. ;D
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JC: I know, isn't this great? This is either a new height or a new absolute low for this site, depending on one's preferences.
And JK, that's right, thanks for the procedural clarification. This could take awhile for sure.
And you are correct, it doesn't have to be a cardinal. But man would that be an upset if that occurs... even bigger than when JPII was elected...
My mother had some choice words about certain of the cardinals as well. I believe her faith of choice was Hindu. We have always had a strange thing for Eastern religions.
;)
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Huck,
We can dream, though, right.
I'm not even Catholic but it would be an inspiring and inspired selection.
Absolutely. And that is where my heart is. But my money, well....
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Live (and free) video feeds on msnbc.com
Gracely out!
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I'm voting to give it back to the Italians. It just seems sort of an order for the universe.
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Actually, the white smoke was displayed as the Vatican has announced a trade. Paul Tagliabue is walking to the mike ...
"Welcome to 2005 NFL Draft. The San Francisco 49ers announce a trade, the first draft pick and 5 autographed Joe Montana jerseys to the Vatican Vipers in exchange for the rights to the next Pope and 2 Cardinals to be named later."
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The German!!! Amazing!
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Actually, the white smoke was displayed as the Vatican has announced a trade. Paul Tagliabue is walking to the mike ...
"Welcome to 2005 NFL Draft. The San Francisco 49ers announce a trade, the first draft pick and 5 autographed Joe Montana jerseys to the Vatican Vipers in exchange for the rights to the next Pope and 2 Cardinals to be named later."
Dr. John York, owner of the SF 49ers commented "As bad as we have been, the only hell in chance we have of being good is through devine intervention ..."
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Benedict XVI, A great Pope name
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Guess they opted to do the conservative, transitional Pope thing by electing a 78 year old.
Lord knows the world could use a good leader. Godspeed.
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Gotta love the name. I was just telling my kids last night I was hoping for an "old-school" name like Benedict or Innocent or Pius...
;)
I didn't win any money. Heck, one couldn't get good odds on Ratzinger anyway.
And yeah, I'm not exactly excited about the choice either. But we shall see what transpires.
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Benedict XVI, A great Pope name
How cool is that to have your name followed by your handicap !!!
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That's right!
That's why he couldn't be JPIII. He had to search and search for a name that had been used 15 times already. Gotta love our rules.
;D
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Live (and free) video feeds on msnbc.com
Gracely out!
Slightly OT - you can't watch the MSNBC live feed running Mozilla Firefox ... they require IE to be your default browser ...
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PS - I haven't been able to locate my mother. She's likely at the local Hindu shrine.
:'(
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Brother Kavanaugh;
What sayeth thee?
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But John, look at it this way also: the Catholic world both here and abroad might not be ready right now for the types of progressive reforms some here in the US would like to see. Given Ratzinger, er I mean Benedict XVI, is 78 years old, well... might not this be seen as a "transitional" Pope, who stays the course set by the seemingly beloved (and perhaps about to be canonized) JPII, until a different time when the reforms might be better received?
That's an optomistic view, anyway.
This papacy can't possibly last more than a decade. Heck it could be quite less than that.
TH
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I have no doubt we are witnessing the first moments of one of the great papacies in Church history. Not only is he a brilliant theologian (brilliant is a word thrown around too easily, but not in this case), but he is also a very humble man. I'm not sure about his golf game.
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As a rampant wee Scottish presbyterian, I so wanted someone I could identify with....
http://www.cathnews.com/news/309/89.php
FBD.
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Wow,...MacWood and Kavanaugh are in unanimity.
No wonder he was elected in two days.
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I would have bet on Arinze.
I'm w/ John K on the architecture, the vatican is scond to none .
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Mike - you read that as those two agreeing? I sure don't. I read JK as trying to make lemonade from this lemon of an announcement, as I am trying to do myself.
But I could be reading JK wrong. I often do.
;)
I have no doubt that our new Pope is both a great theologian and a humble man. My faith in him bringing reforms I'd like to see in my lifetime is not good, however. But I am willing to wait and see what happens, especially as I remain unsure if such reforms are the right thing to do immediately. In any case, he's done nothing yet but humbly accept his new role.
TH
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Mike - you read that as those two agreeing? I sure don't. I read JK as trying to make lemonade from this lemon of an announcement, as I am trying to do myself.
But I could be reading JK wrong. I often do.
;)
Huck,
I took John K as favoring the hardliners, from his statement that this will divide the American church (and us not really knowing what's good for us).
Interesting to see that Cardinal Ratzinger was essentially the guy John Paul used to discipline liberal priests and others not towing the company line.
Perhaps, like Begin with Arafat, or Nixon with China, only a hardliner will be able to drag the faithful kicking and screaming into meaningful reform?
Or, conversely, perhaps the church will continue to diminish in importance in industrialized nations?
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Progressive reforms? E.G.?
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I have no problem with a traditionalist.
Re Vatican Architecture, it is the best.(really the best, not just an adjective) I hope to go there in 2006 to see it all. The obelisk is from egypt, pre-christ. It is a sundial.
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Mike - got it - that makes sense. We'll see how this all goes.
Dan - this has gone way farther than I like to go, as pertaining to religion/social/political issues. My apologies as I certainly did make that previous statement. Anyway it's really not my bag, that is, I don't like to discuss such things much as to me no good ever comes of it. But check your IM.
TH
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Mike - got it - that makes sense. We'll see how this all goes.
Dan - this has gone way farther than I like to go, as pertaining to religion/social/political issues. My apologies as I certainly did make that previous statement. Anyway it's really not my bag, that is, I don't like to discuss such things much as to me no good ever comes of it. But check your IM.
TH
While I understand Huck's reluctance, I have much less sense.
How about this for a progressive reform?
Priests who touch little kids don't get sent to another parish. Instead, they are banned from the priesthood and local authorities are immediately called and make an arrest if it's warranted.
I think most of the civilized world would applaud that type of "hardline" action.
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"My faith in him bringing reforms I'd like to see in my lifetime is not good, however."
TH
I'm not sure what reforms you are looking for in your lifetime, but if it has to do with a more liberal approach, don't hold your breath. He is a traditionalist, who has said in the past that the Church may have to retract in the short run to say true to church doctrine (in the face of moral dilemma and a general selfishness in the world, and pressures to change to match the those modern attitudes)...I have no problem with that. He is also a very gentle and kind man, and I suspect his message will be both gentle and kind as well as principled.
If you are looking for reform within the preisthood...my guess is he's your man.
Its all specualtion at this point.
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The architecture was infinitely better before Mussolini screwed up the entrance to the square. As routed by Bernini, the road leading to the cathedral was through one of the least impressive and poorest parts of Rome. One walked or drove over narrow often foetid streets with the detritus of humanity at either side. Then, suddenly you came up towards the entrance and the magnificence of the square and the cathedral opened up to you and embraced you.
Il Duce thought "His" city needed something more impressive and so he tore down the slums and replaced them with a triumphal avenue.
I'm sure glad that golf courses don't get architecturally butchered like that........ ;)
PS--I don't know this from personal experience. I'm not that old.......
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How about this for a progressive reform?
Priests who touch little kids don't get sent to another parish. Instead, they are banned from the priesthood and local authorities are immediately called and make an arrest if it's warranted.
I think most of the civilized world would applaud that type of "hardline" action.
Everyone would applaud that.
But I wouldn't call it "progressive reform"; I'd call it integrity.
But now I'm going to follow Tom IV's example and further sayeth not.
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"My faith in him bringing reforms I'd like to see in my lifetime is not good, however."
TH
I'm not sure what reforms you are looking for in your lifetime, but if it has to do with a more liberal approach, don't hold your breath. He is a traditionalist, who has said in the past that the Church may have to retract in the short run to say true to church doctrine (in the face of moral dilemma and a general selfishness in the world, and pressures to change to match the those modern attitudes)...I have no problem with that. He is also a very gentle and kind man, and I suspect his message will be both gentle and kind as well as principled.
If you are looking for reform within the preisthood...my guess is he's your man.
Its all specualtion at this point.
Tom M.: I believe I made it quite clear I am not holding my breath for any reforms of any kind to be made. From all I read and hear, I also would heartily agree with your assessment of Benedict XVI's characteristics.
And yes, it is all speculation.
TH
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JohnB, if you became the Pope of Golf, I'm gonna become the world's best hitman and shoot yo ass myself!
:)
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I do believe Gulph Mills is on the Holy See's course opening list.
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Everyone would applaud that.
But I wouldn't call it "progressive reform"; I'd call it integrity.
Dan,
It might be "integrity", but is it Church Doctrine?
If it is, why isn't it enforced?
As a non-Catholic, I don't understand the reasons for this. These guys get more free passes than C&C on this discussion group. ::)
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Everyone would applaud that.
But I wouldn't call it "progressive reform"; I'd call it integrity.
Dan,
It might be "integrity", but is it Church Doctrine?
If it is, why isn't it enforced?
As a non-Catholic, I don't understand the reasons for this. These guys get more free passes than C&C on this discussion group. ::)
Mike --
The day I start speaking for the Catholic Church is the day Tommy N. nominates Fazio for beatification!
Dan
P.S. Would "Ted Robinson" be funnier?
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Presumably he'll have something to say about Quaker Ridge, Canterbury, Royal St George's, Christchurch, Temple, St Enodoc, St Cloud, St Everywhere-in-France, and even such humble English courses as Vicar's Cross. When you're having difficulty going to sleep a) take less water with it, b) try counting golf courses with ecclesiastical connections (better than sheep, come on!) and I bet you get to at least 50, possibly 100. If you start on bunkers: Cardinal, Devil's Ass-hole... No! It's a straight exemption for purgatory - no pre-qualification required.
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Mike --
The day I start speaking for the Catholic Church is the day Tommy N. nominates Fazio for beatification!
Dan
P.S. Would "Ted Robinson" be funnier?
Yes, Tommy nominating Ted Robinson would be funnier.
Rees Jones would probably be funnier still. ;) ;D
And Dan...I just don't get that, even as a citizen. Is it a statute of limitations deal?
I mean, I have a lot of issues with religion in general but one would hope that the practioners of piety and goodness and light would have a really big problem with picking on helpless kids and would be the first in line to decry and punish it.
Doctrine smocktrine. ::)
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Mike:
Not that I too can or ought to speak for the Catholic church, but I'm going to break my rule and give my opinion anyway, because your anti-Golf Digest rantings aside, you are a good egg and thus deserve an answer. ;) I can also trust you to treat this as an intellectual exercise more than a personal one.
My answer is this:
How do you treat accusations? Are the accused immediately to be defrocked and prosecuted?
The answer to that gives the answer to your questions.
Of course the guilty need to be removed and punished, and one would hope that the Boston situation aside, the Church does so. This is a trying time, however, and no amount of doctrine can control the actions of all individuals... even those near the top of the hierarchy.
In any case, think about false accusations.
I have a story to tell about that, but we'll see if it's needed. I don't think it is.
TH
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Boy, for what a controversial, opinionated guy that Kavanaugh usually is, I can't draw him out on this one... :P
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But you succeeded in getting an answer from wishy-washy, apolitical, never say a bad word ME.
That has to be the greater victory.
;D
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Tom,
Thanks and I appreciate where you're coming from and Heaven forbid that man falsely accused.
But, how are accusations handled in other areas of life...in teaching, in boy scouts, in sports, or perhaps just the strange old man down the street?
It's been shown in most cases that the stigma and embarassment associated with boys over the age of 10 or so involved with same-sex contact with an adult prevents false accusations. Also, many of these cases were "open secrets" that persisted for years and years and were hidden by superiors and other officials.
I'm not looking to paint with a broad brush here, but it's a serious problem that the previous John Paul regime just took a flyswatter to. He was a great Pope in many ways, but there are many lingering challenges.
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Mike:
The teacher, the boy scout, the guy down the street does not lose the very fabric of his being just based on an accusation. With the climate today, that DOES occur with priests. One is guilty until proven innocent, and no amount of clearing of one's name gets any of this back.
And while you are correct in that studies show that the stigma would prevent most children from making false accusations, there are certainly teenagers with their own axes to grind, especially in school situations. Then one combines that with the potential financial windfalls to be gained, and you simply can't say false accusations are uncommon.
Please understand I am not defending the actions of any offender here, and I agree with you that the last Pope could certainly have taken stronger action. I'm right with you there.
I just do believe it's also not correct to say all priests should be immediately defrocked and prosecuted when the accusation occurs. I don't think you'd say that either. Thus the question becomes at what point do these actions become necessary?
TH
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Tom,
I'd agree with everything except your first sentence.
Ok...enough religion and politics for one day. Back to the Sand Hills debate....oh wait...isn't that "Church"? ;D
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Mike - I can live with that.
And yes, that is "church" out there in Mullen, NE.
;D
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If I were elected Pope of golf, then...
Mock top collars would have to be allowed at all clubs, just as the priestly dog-collar would also be allowed.
Also allowed would be full length cloaks for men, along with knee length kilts for those of more northern and esteemed heritage, along with the regular pants and shorts.
by order
James VIII.I
(James, official handicap currently 8.1 ;D)
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Huck:
If you check your calendar you'll see that the Pope and Cardinals of this website are already meeting at The Sand Hills in June. :)
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This is a little off the subject...but I was half listening to one of the many erectile treatment commercials last night, and one of the warnings at the end is if your errection should last for more than four hours immediately seek medical attention...which I've always found funny...but for some reason last night I had a vision of myself being carted off Sand Hills in an ambulance.
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:D
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Mike:
One is guilty until proven innocent, and no amount of clearing of one's name gets any of this back.
Huckster,
One thing I have learned in the last four years - after being dragged into 4 different litigations:
THERE IS NO CONSEQUENCE FOR LYING IN CIVIL COURT. NONE. ANYBODY CAN ACCUSE YOU OF ANYTHING AND EVEN IF IT IS DISCOVERED THEY LIED UNDER OATH, OR SIGNED A FALSE INTERROGATORY OR AFFIDAVIT, PERJURY LAWS ARE NEVER ENFORCED.
People are supposedly presumed innocent in this nation. That is complete nonsense.
You are presumed guilty in civil court and if the plaintiff has an attorney working only for a cut of the settlement, you end up blowing thousands and thousands of dollars to defend yourself against lies with no chance to recover any of it. There is no incentive for them to tell the truth because it costs them nothing.
Good luck forcing your accuser to cough up for your fees.
Ask me how I know.
If one of those priests are guilty, they ought to be hanged in the town square. However, we have become a nation of greedy, sue-happy liars. If somebody is caught falsely accusing another person of "molestation" or "child abuse" in order to get revenge, or custody in a divorce or whatever, I say they get the rope just like the pedaphile.
And if I were Pope, I'd play from the front tees because I would be 78 years old. . . . . jeez, I am not a Catholic, but what were they thinking about? The laws of probability suggest they are likely to go through this exercise again in a few short years.
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Gib,
That's the purpose.
In sports it's refered to as an interim coach.
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Mike Cirba and Dan Kelly:
You want to talk about a progressive doctrine for the Catholic Church. Here's mine:
Not that long ago I went to a Canonization in Rome. It was great and it was impressive. However, the following day I went through the Vatican. You want to talk about the world's largest f... fortune!? My God, the church has about $12 trillion dollars in art in there! By the time I exited the Sistine Chapel (the end of the tour) I was smokin". I attacked all my relatives who are Catholic and asked them what the Hell all that is for? They told me about the all important "City of God" on Earth.
My ass---it's the biggest hypocritical farce on Earth!
Maybe it would take 100 years to unload all that art without crushing the world's art market but they better start. Can you imagine---they could line the entire Earth with endless really cool golf courses and still have $10 trillion left over to solve every social ill in the world! They could probably even have enough resources left over to catch Osama's ass and fry it too after they forgave him!
They're sitting on an ineffable Mother Lode and laying the big guilt trip on poor people all over the world for their nickels and dimes!? Biggest bunch of hypocrites I ever heard of. I like the middle age "indulgences" better---at least they were a more obvious and straight-forward scam!
:)
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Tom,
The value of the artwork in The Vatican is a small fraction of the value of The Catholic Church's land holdings! :o
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Gib:
That was my point - and you don't want to ask me how I know. But well said. But as to the point Mike and I were discussing, this is why a rush to judgment - ie immediate defrocking and removal - is very problematic.
Patrick:
I alluded to that earlier as well. It's just not wise right now to put in a progressive or make big changes, given this Pope is going to be compared so directly to the seemingly soon to be beatitified JPII. It would be just setting such a Pope up for failure. After this interim decade or so, the time hopefully will be more right.
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Gib,
Having been to civil court recently, I know exactly what you are talking about. It's a nightmare.
Mike
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Huckster,
Hard to believe, but we have finally found a subject where I am with you 110%.
All we have to do is watch that circus down in Santa Barbara with Michael Jackson. He is an unsympathetic character and may have done some shaky things - but the accusations by the crazy mother now look specious.
I wonder how many Priests have been falsely accused.
Now, there is no doubt in my mind that most of the time the charges are true and the accuser is credible. But having been on the wrong end of the "innocent until proven guilty" gun several times, I say we are very very careful before branding a man with a capital "P" on his forehead for life. (Pedophile)
The problem is that even after the jury, judge, or custody evaluator figures out who is lying through their teeth, you still carry that "accusation" in your past. Forever.
Trust me, the shrill accusations of abuse or whatever at the outset - and whispers behind your back - undermine and eventually obliterate your positive Chi'.
Ask me how I know. I can only imagine what it would be like to be a Priest in that situation.
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Gib, please. There are lots of issues that we agree on. Start with love for NGLA. USC. Lots of other golf courses.
;D
As for all of this, well said once again. And thanks for saying it. This is an issue that is far from as simple as it seems.
TH
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:P
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"Tom,
The value of the artwork in The Vatican is a small fraction of the value of The Catholic Church's land holdings!"
Mike:
Is that a fact?
Well, then, here's a better idea. Get our litigator friends on here to sue all the pedophiles and the Catholic churches and dioceses and when we win a $15 trillion dollar award it'll force them to turn all the church land over to us and we'll build really cool golf courses on all of them.
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Dan Kelly
Are you listening?
Band Name of the Day:
"Gib Papazian and his Gang of Thugs"
I'd be a groupie for that band. ;)
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"Tom,
The value of the artwork in The Vatican is a small fraction of the value of The Catholic Church's land holdings!"
Mike:
Is that a fact?
Well, then, here's a better idea. Get our litigator friends on here to sue all the pedophiles and the Catholic churches and dioceses and when we win a $15 trillion dollar award it'll force them to turn all the church land over to us and we'll build really cool golf courses on all of them.
Tom,
It has been done in Boston ! Unfortunately my alma mater is going to used the land purchased from the Archdiocese of Boston for silly stuff like housing, and classrooms. They could have used it to finally spread out the Donald Ross designed Newton Commonwealth CC across the street, but noooo they want to educate people! ;)
From NYT's:
Boston College, a Jesuit institution that is independent of the archdiocese, will acquire 43 of the headquarters' 60 acres for $99.4 million. The money is due by June 30. The college will most likely use the land, in the city's Brighton section, for playing fields and office space, said a spokesman, John B. Dunn. It plans to buy an additional 3.25 acres for $8 million by June 2006, Mr. Dunn said.
Archbishop O'Malley insisted throughout the settlement process that no parish or archdiocesan operating money would be used to settle cases of sexual abuse, including a landmark $85 million settlement with more than 500 people who say they had been abused by priests in the archdiocese.
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If only Alex Findlay had been more convincing when he tried to persuade Pope Pius? to build a golf course at the Vatican.
If he had, would it have taken long for the Cardinals and Pope and Seminarians to catch the bug and transform the place into Italy's version of St. Andrews, playing matches in team colors, etc.?
Before you know it, "Saint" courses would have spread across all of lower Europe, perhaps avoiding two world wars and beyond, spreading the good word of par and bogey and employing laborers, architects, cartgirls, etc., lifting Europe from a general malaise and so on...
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M. Cirba,
As a practicing Catholic in Ohio, I did notice that a number of the priests enjoyed golf on a regular basis. I never got invited, but heard from third parties that the collars were loosened, a few coins changed hands, less than priestly language was overheard, and the alcohol flowed freely in the clubhouse afterwards.
Come to think of it, I never heard of any sexual foul play going on up there. So, if Pope Benedict doesn't change the church rules on celibacy, perhaps he'll order a realignment of its vast land holdings and provide affordable golf to keep the minds of the clergy and the flock occupied on something wholesome.
As Pope Pious, I would order a lottery day once a year during the peak of DST at each of the top 100 Modern and Classic courses. There would be three shotguns of 36 foursomes, for a fee of the normal accompanied guest amount, to be shared 20/80 by the club and the church, respectively (we wouldn't want to get the clubs in trouble with the IRS). There would be a few scholarships for the needy.
Local church volunteers would keep the play going, cook dogs and burgers, sell beer, wine, and soft drinks. The locals would get to keep 25% of the church's share, the diocesce would get another 25%, and Rome gets 50%.
Martha Burk would be my head of club relations with Calypso Louie (Farakan), the director of security, having a dotted line to her office. The Rev. Jackson would lead my outreach efforts and assist Ms. Burk with hesitant club managers. As my Chief Change & Crisis Management Officer, the Reverend Sharpton would also serve double duty as ad hoc ambasador of goodwill. Finally, former Presidents Bush and Clinton would be the honorary starters, one at the #1 Classic course, and the other at the Modern one.
Yes, it is a slow day here and my left elbow is still smarting from all the golf a couple of weeks ago.
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Yes, it is a slow day here and my left elbow is still smarting from all the golf a couple of weeks ago.
Lou
With a modern swing, all those left elbow problems should just fade (pardon the pun) away. At the top of your swing, make sure to come down with an anti-pronating wrist counter flex through the ball, and all those aches and pains will soon be history.......
Glad to be of help.
Rich
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Hmm...wonder if golf is the mindless pagan variant of some aesthetic, wiccan, nature based anti-religion, as well? ::)
At the Eighth International Church Music Congress in Rome in 1986, for example, Ratzinger blasted rock music as a “vehicle of anti-religion”. He said rock and roll is a secular variant of an age-old ecstatic religion, in which man “lowers the barriers of individuality and personality” to “liberate himself from the burden of consciousness”. Rock is thus “the complete antithesis of Christian faith in the redemption”.
I see a real party coming. :P ;D
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Rich Goodale,
I am sure that your advice is rock solid. Unfortunately, brogue is not spoken here. Texan only.
Which brings up the question as to where Hogan was really reared. His "Five Lessons" on the fundamentals of the modern swing was perplexing at best. All the pronating, supinating, and leading with the right knee just makes me dizzy.
Suffice it to say that my swing these days resemble more those of the turn of the 20th century, though I dare not to categorize it as "classic". As poorly as I played in Aberdour (I still can't pronounce that blessed name) a couple of years back, I would gladly take that swing today. Sore elbow or not. If things don't change quickly, I may be joining the teenagers in your beautiful town and howl at the moon from the streets.
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Rich Goodale,
I am sure that your advice is rock solid. Unfortunately, brogue is not spoken here. Texan only.
Which brings up the question as to where Hogan was really reared. His "Five Lessons" on the fundamentals of the modern swing was perplexing at best. All the pronating, supinating, and leading with the right knee just makes me dizzy.
Suffice it to say that my swing these days resemble more those of the turn of the 20th century, though I dare not to categorize it as "classic". As poorly as I played in Aberdour (I still can't pronounce that blessed name) a couple of years back, I would gladly take that swing today. Sore elbow or not. If things don't change quickly, I may be joining the teenagers in your beautiful town and howl at the moon from the streets.
What shafts do you have in your irons?
-Ted
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Ted,
Apex 4s. My normal shot is starting the irons and fairways on the line or a bit left, and going left from there. The driver is the only club I am hitting decently though somewhat short. It nas a Graffaloy graphite stiff. I think that my clubhead speed is still over 100 mph (115 - 125 in years past). Some advice?
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Hmm...wonder if golf is the mindless pagan variant of some aesthetic, wiccan, nature based anti-religion, as well? ::)
At the Eighth International Church Music Congress in Rome in 1986, for example, Ratzinger blasted rock music as a “vehicle of anti-religion”. He said rock and roll is a secular variant of an age-old ecstatic religion, in which man “lowers the barriers of individuality and personality” to “liberate himself from the burden of consciousness”. Rock is thus “the complete antithesis of Christian faith in the redemption”.
I see a real party coming. :P ;D
I'm sending my hairshirt to the cleaners.
Vive il Papa
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Ted,
Apex 4s. My normal shot is starting the irons and fairways on the line or a bit left, and going left from there. The driver is the only club I am hitting decently though somewhat short. It nas a Graffaloy graphite stiff. I think that my clubhead speed is still over 100 mph (115 - 125 in years past). Some advice?
I don't know how much you know about shafts and golf equipment in general so pls forgive me if I am stating the obvious, but I'll start off by keeping it as simple as possible . . .
Apex 4's are the Hogan version of "stiff". There really isn't any industry standard defining "stiff", but there are a bunch of other "stiff" shafts out there to choose from and 2 that I would recomend looking into if relieving pain is going to be a factor in your decision making.
Rifle shafts tend to play/feel a little smoother than others. Rifle makes a few different types of shafts, but to keep things as simple as possible, I'm just talking about "standard rifles". Rifle 5.5 and 6.0 play right around "stiff", with 5.5s maybe being a shade softer and 6.0s being a shade tighter than other "stiff shafts"
I switched from DG s300 to Rifle 5.5 and couldn't be happier. The Rifles are a bit softer, flight the ball a bit higher, and the feel is way smoother. I broke both of my elbows when I was younger and have pain in them pretty regularly, the switch to Rifles has eased that pain as it relates to golf a great deal.
The other shaft that might be worth checking out is Nippon. Nippon makes a "950" and a "1050" in both "stiff" and "regular". The 950 is 95 grams and the 1050 is 105 grams. The Apex4s are 113 grams. The Nippons are lighter than the Apex4s and play MUCH smoother . . .many "strong hitters of the ball" don't care for Nippons because they can be overpowered, while "smoother swinging" types tend to really like them. Callaway is using Nippon 950s as a stock shaft in their new Fusion Irons.
If you have a chance to check out a set of irons with Rifle 5.5s or Nippons in them, it might be worth your time. . .
I can put you in touch with people who know this stuff inside and out. If you have any more questions, please feel free to ask. If I can't help you, I can certainly put you in touch with someone who can.
-Ted
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Hmm...wonder if golf is the mindless pagan variant of some aesthetic, wiccan, nature based anti-religion, as well? ::)
At the Eighth International Church Music Congress in Rome in 1986, for example, Ratzinger blasted rock music as a “vehicle of anti-religion”. He said rock and roll is a secular variant of an age-old ecstatic religion, in which man “lowers the barriers of individuality and personality” to “liberate himself from the burden of consciousness”. Rock is thus “the complete antithesis of Christian faith in the redemption”.
I see a real party coming. :P ;D
I'm sending my hairshirt to the cleaners.
Vive la Papa
Yes, John...
I'm imagining that even Tom MacWood's Four-Hour Erection from playing Sand Hills will "be utterly cryit down" in coming days.
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Vive la Papa
LA (?) Papa?
Do you know something we don't?
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Many pardons Holy Father
vive il Papa
My mother prefers the Latin Mass.
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"At the Eighth International Church Music Congress in Rome in 1986, for example, Ratzinger blasted rock music as a 'vehicle of anti-religion'. He said rock and roll is a secular variant of an age-old ecstatic religion, in which man 'lowers the barriers of individuality and personality' to 'liberate himself from the burden of consciousness'. Rock is thus 'the complete antithesis of Christian faith in the redemption'."
Whenever I read a mutilated disjointed quote like that one, I immediately wonder if the author has an agenda or an ax to grind...the context and totality of his remarks are impossible to know from this quote. From what I understand Ratzinger is a classical music fanatic...Mozart, Bethoven, etc.
Here are the top songs from 1986...he should have added "and the complete antithesis of good music."
http://villagevoice.com/specials/pazznjop/02/search_return.php?poll_year=1986&type=S&keyword=
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All Right, since Lou brought up the sore left elbow, I have to ask: what about the sore right elbow? I got back from playing 3 days straight in Scottsdale and literally had a bruise on my right forearm and inner right bicep. That's got to be some sort of major swing flaw, no?
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All Right, since Lou brought up the sore left elbow, I have to ask: what about the sore right elbow? I got back from playing 3 days straight in Scottsdale and literally had a bruise on my right forearm and inner right bicep. That's got to be some sort of major swing flaw, no?
Any "movies" on the hotel receipt?
;)
-Ted
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Tom MacWood,
Perhaps the pontiff was simply decrying the sad demise of the disco era? ;)
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bump
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I think that is one thing that makes GB&I great. Being able to play the great courses. Look at the influence that has had on the architects of our time. CBM walking off distances, Pete Dye and railroad ties, etc.
Anthony
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I think that is one thing that makes GB&I great. Being able to play the great courses. Look at the influence that has had on the architects of our time. CBM walking off distances, Pete Dye and railroad ties, etc.
Anthony
Don't forget the sheep....and how they influenced many....that's why you saw pictures of many of the ODG's in the tall rubber boots ;D
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I would not open up the private courses. I think being able to play the classic courses in GB&I makes that trip extra special. If we could play all the private clubs in the USA, I think fewer would make that trip as it wouldn't be as big a treat.
Also, I wondered if a lot of good/great courses in the US would loose their appeal as a big part of it is the mystique and aura of a club. Take that away and get the below average golfer with no sense of quality design playing it and putting it down and the courses allure would go down and taint some wonderful legacies.
I feel this might be happening a little with St. Andrews Old. I've seen written reviews saying that it is a great piece of musuem history, but is lacking as a golf course. But then true experts, rave about it now...as they have for a LONG period of time.
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I will disagree with Mac here...I believe that each great old private club could open its doors one day a year for charity, offer up fifteen minutes tee times from 8 to 3:45, 104 golfers each year an opportunity to experience the course. Before I go on, remember that Augusta National essentially does this the Monday after the Masters for the lucky few of the unwashed media. One of the Buffalo News guys was selected to play one year. Now, I regress from the digression...
You could donate all green fees to charity...charge $200 per foursome and pull in $5000 for some foundation. Clubs could go a step farther and deny people access but once every five years, if the demand is high enough. Knowing that I could get on Shinny or NatGolf with enough anticipation would compel me to build a trip around it.
Punto numero dos\\ I believe that seeing great courses will motivate many to pursue learning of and playing other great courses. They might even end up here! Chances are that some will discover the old countries of golf and follow a blazed trail to GB&I.
Punto numero tres\\ It has been almost 20 years since I played my single and singular round over the Old Course of St. Andy. My knowledge base was still not enough to prepare me for its magic. It is one of those course (and there are many in the world) where true knowledge is gained through repetition. If the opportunity to become a temporary burgher (with a 30 day residency in the town) and play the course for peanuts is still available, I believe that I would do so. Who knows, I might even take a sabbatical there some year, starting in June when classes let out.
As for those who praise or criticize the layout, remember that some call me merely ugly, while others see me as stunningly grotesque
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At $200 per foursome, the line atthe door would be so long that you'd be talking about a random lottery. That's cheaper than good number of average public courses. At $5000 the clubs would be be doing somenice foundations a disservice relative to their real earnings power.
I'd say $500 / head is more appropriate for the elite courses holding a charity auction. Would this dose the doors on a good portion ofthe gfing public? Yes, but you'd still be full every year and a guy that truly dreamed of playing one particular course (as opposed to checking a bunch off of a checklist without taking the time to form relationships) could and would save up for this dream round, even on a modest income.
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As for those who praise or criticize the layout, remember that some call me merely ugly, while others see me as stunningly grotesque
...some even call you Milfred! ;D
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Do you know the origin of Milfred? That's Deacon Palmer's first name. Arnie's dad was Milfred. Who the F would spoil a meat-and-potatoes name like Fred by putting Al or Mil in front of it? How many other ways can you mess it up...Illfred? Culfred? Hamfred? The list goes on.
Milfred...
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Okay...
Milfred is right. I agree with what he said.
But hold on a minute...you can become a 30 day resident of St. Andrews and play the old course everyday? Please tell me more.
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In true Catholic style only the poor should be allowed through the many sets of earthly Gates of St Peters and be given a free bowl of soup as they enter. You folks talking of money like it grows on trees, no, to mediocre public 5 hour games of golfing purgatory for you. Your final fate is to be decided by a much higher authority than the PoG. For all you folks who need not talk about money at all, the meek shall inherit the golf clubs one and all. Your afterlife, yes, you are so blessed because you can afford and hopefully paid for your dispensation, is to be spent in perpertual servitude to the game you love. For those who would not hedge their bets on the existence of God (otherwise known as cheap buggers) and pay the proper dispensation, of which a tything may have sufficed in many circumstances, you are deemed unfit to be wealthy and shall spend a damned eternity paying for and caddying for the less fortunate golf addicts of this world.
Ciao
Seanus Robertus VIII.VII
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Sean...
Are you serious? If so, I apologize if I have offended you. I will try to be more careful in the future.
I thought Ron/Milfred's idea of raising money for charity was better than my closed door policy, which benefits no one but the members of these elite courses (of which I am not a member).
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I'm between a sean and a tim bert. We might as well kill two birds with one stone and make a charitable endeavor. Tim, your suggestion keeps closed doors closed and honestly, I'm disappointed that you would even give it air. The kind that can afford $500 rounds have already seen these courses. The idea is to raise support for golf course architecture and travel to Europe to play these fine courses. As the Euro weakens, the plausibility of a trip becomes more viable.
If you think that $5G is small potatoes, have 104 club members match the visitor expense and you double to $10G. The idea IS TO HAVE a random lottery. The idea IS TO MAKE IT comparable to fine public courses. Case in point: Hickory Stick in Lewiston, NY opens this year. It is a Seneca Niagara casino resort course. If the rack rate is $150, few locals play it. If opportunity to play it for $50-$75 is offered, the locals experience it, decide it if they like it, and perhaps make plans to return.
If you want people to base their opinions on great courses entirely on hearsay, by all means, lay down your $500 tariff. Oh, do I have lots to write on this subject...
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Do you know the origin of Milfred? That's Deacon Palmer's first name. Arnie's dad was Milfred. Who the F would spoil a meat-and-potatoes name like Fred by putting Al or Mil in front of it? How many other ways can you mess it up...Illfred? Culfred? Hamfred? The list goes on.
Milfred...
Mofred??
BTW Dicky V was dropping your name at about the 10:00 mark of the second half of the Tennessee/Kentucky game last night. Kept saying you were in the house, but I did not see you on my tv screen. ;)
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Hey, who made you pope of this dump?
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I'm between a sean and a tim bert. We might as well kill two birds with one stone and make a charitable endeavor. Tim, your suggestion keeps closed doors closed and honestly, I'm disappointed that you would even give it air. The kind that can afford $500 rounds have already seen these courses. The idea is to raise support for golf course architecture and travel to Europe to play these fine courses. As the Euro weakens, the plausibility of a trip becomes more viable.
If you think that $5G is small potatoes, have 104 club members match the visitor expense and you double to $10G. The idea IS TO HAVE a random lottery. The idea IS TO MAKE IT comparable to fine public courses. Case in point: Hickory Stick in Lewiston, NY opens this year. It is a Seneca Niagara casino resort course. If the rack rate is $150, few locals play it. If opportunity to play it for $50-$75 is offered, the locals experience it, decide it if they like it, and perhaps make plans to return.
If you want people to base their opinions on great courses entirely on hearsay, by all means, lay down your $500 tariff. Oh, do I have lots to write on this subject...
If you want to open the courses to those that can't afford it, then simply offer it up for free and make it a lottery and put a cap on income for those that can apply. I'd say that $50k sounds about right.
Anyone with an income greater than that amount that truly and deeply wants to experience their lifelong dream course can afford to spend 1% of their salary in one year - so they can enroll in the $500 event. Or they can choose to meet people, develop friendships, become a rater, etc like everyone else and pay the sticker price as an accompanied or unaccompanied guest.
Putting the $50-$100 price tag on it feels a lot more like cheap people or those not willing to invest time in social relationships demanding their fair share and access to clubs that, in many cases, don't want or need the attention.
Perhaps Ferrari and other auto manufacturers should all let us drive of their high-end cars once a year for free so we can all get a taste?
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Hey, who made you pope of this dump?
A Dump? Well....I'll guarantee you'll never be a member here!
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Interesting old thread. I'd forgotten about doing it but I see I went into my usual rant against the Vatican around Reply #100 or so. If some one person actually got into a position to control the golf world my first suggestion would be they not call themselves "Pope." ;)
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Hey, who made you pope of this dump?
A Dump? Well....I'll guarantee you'll never be a member here!
You think I'd join this crummy snobatorium? The only reason I'm here is maybe I'll buy it.
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JC:
Do you happen to know any of the etymologies of the word snob?
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JC:
Do you happen to know any of the etymologies of the word snob?
I know this question was not directed at me, but I did not. I just took the time to look it up. Not exaclty what I expected.
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JC:
Do you happen to know any of the etymologies of the word snob?
I do not. Although based on your question, I assume it has a history of meaning something different, or perhaps opposite, of what it is generally understood to mean today. Nevertheless, I was quoting a movie.
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1. Tim, we'll just disagree on this one. I'm a believer in making something out of nothing, but not giving things away for free.
2. RE: One etymology of Snob:
1781, "a shoemaker, a shoemaker's apprentice," of unknown origin. It came to be used in Cambridge University slang c.1796 for "townsman, local merchant," and by 1831 it was being used for "person of the ordinary or lower classes." Meaning "person who vulgarly apes his social superiors" arose 1843, popularized 1848 by William Thackeray's "Book of Snobs." The meaning later broadened to include those who insist on their gentility, in addition to those who merely aspire to it, and by 1911 had its main modern sense of "one who despises those considered inferior in rank, attainment, or taste."
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Who knew Mr. Paul was so transparent ;) ;D
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Ronald agree with your first sentence. It doesn't really matter since neither your suggetion nor mine is going to take place. It wod be silly to waste too much energy arguing whose not going to happen scenario has more merit.
Partucularly when it is clear mine is superior. ;D
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"The meaning later broadened to include those who insist on their gentility, in addition to those who merely aspire to it, and by 1911 had its main modern sense of "one who despises those considered inferior in rank, attainment, or taste."
Snobbery, surprisingly enough, is found quite often at prominent golf clubs within the United Kingdom and USA. Oh, come to think of it I'll include Germany and France.
Bob
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JC and Ronald:
Yes indeed it certainly is different from the more commonally understood etymology for snob you just cited. This one was taught to us at St. Mark's School by one English teacher who was actually one helluva erudite and totally interesting Englishman, and I suppose from a family that over there that was considered to be of partiuclarly noble birth. He claimed the other etymology derived from a few so-called English "public" boarding schools----in their case the word "public" actually meaning incredibly private!! These were for little lower classmen sons of sort of the English aristocracy. They actually had clubs in those little boarding schools that were sort of automatic filters into the likes of Oxford and Cambridge and being imbued with the idea and ethos of TRUE Noblese Oblige where the idea of a true gentleman (one etymology being GENTLE man) was that he should never in any case disrespect anyone he understood to be below his station in life----eg the idea was a true gentleman essentially always treated everyone from cobblers to kings the same way---politely!
Anyway, when they were considering candidates for their clubs if they felt one did no measure up to that type of ethos because he was disrespectful to people below his station in life they would write next to his name for admission to the club the partial acronym S.NOB. which meant sine nobilis----without nobility!
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Tom,
In 18th and 19th century England, the term Gentleman was used for those persons who did not have to grub for money "in trade." Basically one was a landowner or beneficiary of a legacy of some sort or another.
From the explanation of your tutor at St. Marks, I am sure he extolled the virtues of the Corinthian ideals of amateurism.
Bob
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"From the explanation of your tutor at St. Marks, I am sure he extolled the virtues of the Corinthian ideals of amateurism."
BobH:
He did indeed extoll the virtues of the Corinthian ideal of amateurism and such, even though, oddly, he did not for some reason see eye to eye with our Greek teacher and some of his ideas on things. (Is it possible the English aristocracy of the 17th, 18th and 19th century felt they had taken life and thought a few levels beyond and above Ancient and Classical Greece?). ;)
Actually, to be allowed to concentrate on Greek at St. Marks School you pretty much had to earn the right to it by doing remarkably well with your grades for quite a time. I never made that cut and so I've always been somewhat leery of Greece, Greek and Greeks. I abide by that greart story about Jackie Kennedy. One day after the President was killed, Jackie's mother, Mrs Auchincloss, asked her how she was feeling and she apparently said: "Mother, I think I have mononucleosis." Her mother said: "Jackie, how many times have I told you not to go to bed with a Greek?"
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This just in.......
The Pope and Tiger woods died on the same day and because of an
administrative mix up the Pope went to hell and Tiger Woods went to
heaven.
The Pope explains the situation to the administrative clerk in hell, and
after checking the paperwork admits that there is an error. "However",
the clerk explains, "it would be 24 hours before it can be rectified".
Next day the Pope is called and Hell's staff bids him farewell.
On the way up, the Pope meets Tiger Woods coming down from heaven and
they stop to have a chat.
"Sorry about the mix up", apologies the Pope "No problem" replied Tiger
Woods,
Pope: "I am really anxious to get to heaven"
Tiger: "Why is that?"
Pope: "All my life I have wanted to meet the Virgin Mary"
Tiger: "You're a day late"
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(http://www.jaunted.com/files/4912/drudge_siren.gif)
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Jeez, the poor have the whole inheriting the earth thing going for them, and they want to play on nice golf courses in the interim? Bluidy greedy of them if you ask me.
Cheers,
Dan King
"Unless one is wealthy there is no use in being a charming fellow. Romance is the privilege of the rich, not the profession of the unemployed. The poor should be practical and prosaic. It is better to have a permanent income than to be fascinating."
--Oscar Wilde
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"Jeez, the poor have the whole inheriting the earth thing going for them, and they want to play on nice golf courses in the interim? Bluidy greedy of them if you ask me."
Come on Dan, this whole "inherit the earth" thing was just another feel good way Catholicism tried to make the poor work harder so they would give more money to the church. And then, dang it if that atheist Karl Marx didn't essentially borrow that marketing adage from the church to create communist revolution.
If you ask me this whole thing is some kind of global conspiracy and I think the damn Freemasons are behind the whole thing! And what did they start out as for God's sake? Just a bunch of common French burglars who ripped off some Middle Eastern tribes! What they did by ripping off the treasure in the Temple on the Mount isn't much different than some people robbing the mob or the Columbian drug cartel today of all their loot. If you do something like that the only way you can possibly survive longterm is to keep the con for all time to come and make up a bunch of bullshit stories in the process to cover up what you actually did. ;)
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TP,
Just try hanging out in the Latin countries where the "blessing to be poor" deal runs rampant....add that to no birth control and you got some power... ;)
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"Jeez, the poor have the whole inheriting the earth thing going for them, and they want to play on nice golf courses in the interim? Bluidy greedy of them if you ask me."
Come on Dan, this whole "inherit the earth" thing was just another feel good way Catholicism tried to make the poor work harder so they would give more money to the church. And then, dang it if that atheist Karl Marx didn't essentially borrow that marketing adage from the church to create communist revolution.
If you ask me this whole thing is some kind of global conspiracy and I think the damn Freemasons are behind the whole thing! And what did they start out as for God's sake? Just a bunch of common French burglars who ripped off some Middle Eastern tribes! What they did by ripping off the treasure in the Temple on the Mount isn't much different than some people robbing the mob or the Columbian drug cartel today of all their loot. If you do something like that the only way you can possibly survive longterm is to keep the con for all time to come and make up a bunch of bullshit stories in the process to cover up what you actually did. ;)
Man, that is funny.
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"Man, that is funny."
Funny?? Yeah, well the only reason you say it's funny is because you ain't poor. You must be one of those rich architects connected to that international oligarchy of rich Freemasons who want to keep all us meek golfers poor or poor golfers meek.
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By the way, don't you just love that word meek? Doesn't in just sound like what it means? It's just so, so, ah, so onomatopoetic?!
Nevertheless, even if I am meek, I'm also mad as Hell and I'm not going to take it anymore! Therefore, I hereby propose that the Catholic Church, The Vatican, The PGA of America, The PGA Tour, Toro, Jacobsen, John Deere, Titleist, Nike, Taylor Made, Callaway et al, all the agronomic chemicals companies, and perhaps even the US Government be taken over by the new 21st century USGA! At least they are part-time not-for-profit volunteers who don't have any idea what they're really doing so they wouldn't recognize a true global conspiracy if it whacked them upside the head.
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TEPaul writes:
Come on Dan, this whole "inherit the earth" thing was just another feel good way Catholicism tried to make the poor work harder so they would give more money to the church.
Let's just say you are right for the sake of argument. (I really have no desire to get into a theology argument when I am so poorly prepared.) But what about the whole rich having as much shot at the Kingdom of heaven as a camel and a really small hole? So the poor get this easy trip to heaven and they want to also play NGL? Is it so wrong to give the rich a nice course since they will more than likely have to spend eternity burning in hell fire?
Nevertheless, even if I am meek, I'm also mad as Hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!
You've never come across as meek to me Mr. Paul. Maybe in person you have this very Clark Kent vibe, but on this group you can't claim meekdom.
At least they are part-time not-for-profit volunteers who don't have any idea what they're really doing so they wouldn't recognize a true global conspiracy if it whacked them upside the head.
That's all we need, the bona fide so socialists on the USGA taking over. Sure, they can't do any worse the Congress, but isn't that a mightly low bar to get over?
Just because none of us have seen your birth certificate is no reason for us to believe you aren't American, is it?
Cheers,
Dan King
"So here you have Barack Obama going in and spending the money on embryonic stem cell research. ... Eugenics. In case you don't know what Eugenics led us to: the Final Solution. A master race! A perfect person. ... The stuff that we are facing is absolutely frightening."
--Glen Beck
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Assuming that the theology department has concluded their theoretical parodies, can I ask a reasonably germane question?
Let us say that the white smoke arose above Far Hills and our new leader was Pope Pius Egalitus - keeper of all things fair and public. Further, let us theorize that it was mandated that every "great" club would swing open their doors to a foursome a day of the lowly plebeians (aside from the Pizza Man - for those who were here during the Reformation).
Would the average public player - if relatively uninformed of the exclusivity and historical significance of what he is about to play - derive more enjoyment from Shinnecock Hills or Maidstone than Pelican Hill or one of the more glamorous CCFAD's?
Does this refugee from the local muni, upon walking off of NGLA, have an architectural epiphany and suddenly grasp what the fuss is all about? Or is he so out of his depth that expecting his appreciation of complex strategic arrangements akin to asking a child to articulate the genius of Monet's Water Lilies vs. a well drawn cartoon character?
Is Joe Six Pack capable of ascertaining the difference between rough-around-the-edges Newport and pristine but soulless Cascata?
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Assuming that the theology department has concluded their theoretical parodies, can I ask a reasonably germane question?
Let us say that the white smoke arose above Far Hills and our new leader was Pope Pius Egalitus - keeper of all things fair and public. Further, let us theorize that it was mandated that every "great" club would swing open their doors to a foursome a day of the lowly plebeians (aside from the Pizza Man - for those who were here during the Reformation).
Would the average public player - if relatively uninformed of the exclusivity and historical significance of what he is about to play - derive more enjoyment from Shinnecock Hills or Maidstone than Pelican Hill or one of the more glamorous CCFAD's?
Does this refugee from the local muni, upon walking off of NGLA, have an architectural epiphany and suddenly grasp what the fuss is all about? Or is he so out of his depth that expecting appreciation of complex strategic arrangements akin to asking a child to articulate the genius of Monet's Water Lilies vs. a well drawn cartoon character?
Is Joe Six Pack capable of ascertaining the difference between rough-around-the-edges Newport and pristine but soulless Cascata?
Gib
I think for me the more important question is does Joe Sixpack have to ascertain any difference? Can't he just do and then say he has done it? Essentially, that is what it amounts to for a good deal of guests of the great American courses.
For the record, I don't think the greats are really much better than many other of the "lesser greats". Reputation and history go a long way in these matters. Always have, always will.
Ciao
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Don't most of the private clubs in the UK and IrelaND allow outside play?
Anthony
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Sean,
Then what is the point of mandating that Mr. Six Pack be provided access to these clubs? I'm aware there are those who run around the U.K. and Ireland at flank speed trying to obtain as many notches on their golf bags as possible, but on that side of the pond lending your daughter for the leisure and pleasure of rich visitors to subsidize your club coffers is commonplace.
If there is little difference between the great and "lesser great" - then it follows that we may as well send over the pretty redhead barmaid instead of Angie Everhart. If a very good BV vino is indistinguishable to the the uneducated pallet from a 2005 Silver Oak Cabernet, why pop the cork on Bingo Night?
"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." - Mathew 7:6
Pretty soon, there will be cigarette butts and stray Budweiser cans strewn all over the putting surfaces. Unrepaired ball marks, divots everywhere, lost Top-Flites in the rough like range balls . . . . . where does it end? How soon before there is a beverage cart at Merion?
T'is a slippery slope laddie. Father forgive them, for they know not what they do . . . . .
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Sean,
Then what is the point of mandating that Mr. Six Pack be provided access to these clubs? I'm aware there are those who run around the U.K. and Ireland at flank speed trying to obtain as many notches on their golf bags as possible, but on that side of the pond lending your daughter for the leisure and pleasure of rich visitors to subsidize your club coffers is commonplace.
If there is little difference between the great and "lesser great" - then it follows that we may as well send over the pretty redhead barmaid instead of Angie Everhart. If a very good BV vino is indistinguishable to the the uneducated pallet from a 2005 Silver Oak Cabernet, why pop the cork on Bingo Night?
"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." - Mathew 7:6
Pretty soon, there will be cigarette butts and stray Budweiser cans strewn all over the putting surfaces. Unrepaired ball marks, divots everywhere, lost Top-Flites in the rough like range balls . . . . . where does it end? How soon before there is a beverage cart at Merion?
T'is a slippery slope laddie. Father forgive them, for they know not what they do . . . . .
Gib
I don't think private clubs that don't want to open up should ever be mandated to do so. While I would think it wonderful to play these gems (at a reasonable cost), it is far more important to me that people have the right to associate with whom they wish without government (God?) interference.
The Angie Everhart's of this world are a dime a dozen. What makes her desirable is exposure by a media culture which is as twisted as its audience. Up close and personal, she is only a person. You have seen literally thousands of girls you wouldn't have kicked out of bed for eating crackers.
I love wine like only few do and I constantly search for the next wine that will do when I won't pop the cork on my Chateau Margaux. Only sometimes, and a bit more often than I would like, the CMs don't quite live up to expectations. Is it because I have found enough excellent table wines to do me? Perhaps fine wine has been in a bit of funk in recent years? Maybe I am starting to view wine more as red juice to be drunk rather than talked about? Its likely a combo of all three and more factors. One thing is for certain, my CMs don't really bring me anymore pleasure than an excellent dao at 1/4 the price.
Ciao
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You know I believe Mr. 6-pak would walk off NGLA not liking the place for the very reason the treehouse would like it. Character often translates to complexity and subtlety. I can imagine Mr. 6 would shaking his head and muttering post round, "there's just too much going on at this course."
JC
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Jonathan, I think you are totally correct.
I haven't played NGLA yet, but I can speak to Mr. 6's take on golf courses...as I have only been playing a little while and really studying architecture for a much shorter period than that.
The first time I played a few top 100 courses, I walked off them saying EXACTLY what you just typed. Not much going on there...I don't get the big deal about the course. Why? I didn't understand what a good course was all about. I didn't understand the strategic game that is being played between the architect and the golfer.
If a green was shell-backed and I hit a nice well-struck aerial approach shot that didn't hold the green, well that green was unfair. Little did I know that the lower trajectory shot might have been better served for that type of green.
Also, being out of position off the tee was way beyond me. If I hit the middle of the fairway, I thought I was in good shape. But when you play courses designed by the likes of Donald Ross and his peers, that may not be the best way to do it. Remember Chris' B's post on the 12th at Pine Needles.
These types of subtle nuances make courses great to me. And I think that they are so subtle that Mr. 6 will not get them. Why do I believe that? Because a year ago (or so), I didn't get them.
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You know I believe Mr. 6-pak would walk off NGLA not liking the place for the very reason the treehouse would like it. Character often translates to complexity and subtlety. I can imagine Mr. 6 would shaking his head and muttering post round, "there's just too much going on at this course."
JC
I think you underestimate the Joe Sixpacks of the world and you certainly overestimate the self-styled savants here.
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You know I believe Mr. 6-pak would walk off NGLA not liking the place for the very reason the treehouse would like it. Character often translates to complexity and subtlety. I can imagine Mr. 6 would shaking his head and muttering post round, "there's just too much going on at this course."
JC
I think you underestimate the Joe Sixpacks of the world and you certainly overestimate the self-styled savants here.
It's probably somewhere in the middle. For every person like my father-in-law who asks if Crystal Downs is so great, why don't they play a PGA tournament there there is someone on here who is as concerned about views of the water and really green grass.