Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: wsmorrison on March 25, 2005, 09:39:11 AM
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Inspired by the thread on Donald Ross courses, I wanted to get an idea of how many William Flynn courses people have studied or played. I was a bit surprised by the lack of Ross courses most have seen except for the usual suspects (Klein and Fay). I thought my number would be paltry by most comparisons. In any case, my preconceived notion about the number of Flynn courses most have seen might be wrong as well. I would've thought that few would have seen more than 5, especially outside the Philadelphia contingent on site.
The 48 Flynns (designs, redesigns or constructions) that I've been to include:
Atlantic City CC
Bala GC
Brinton Lake Club (now Concord CC)
Burning Tree Club (construction)
Cascades
Columbia CC (2 holes redesigned)
Concord
The Creek Club
TCC-Pepper Pike
CC of Harrisburg
Doylestown CC
Eagles Mere CC Old
Eagles Mere CC New (what's left of the NLE)
Glen View Club
Gulph Mills GC
Huntingdon Valley CC
Indian Creek CC
The Kittansett Club
Lancaster CC
Lehigh CC
Manor CC (may it rest in peace, Craig)
Manufacturers CC
Marble Hall (now known as Green Valley)
McCall Field (Phila Electric)
Merion East
Merion West
Monroe CC (nine-holer)
Normandy Shores CC
North Hills CC
Old Course at the Homestead
Pepper Pike Club
Philadelphia Country Club
Philadelphia Cricket Club
Philmont North
Pine Valley GC
Plymouth CC (Norristown, PA)
Pocantico Hills GC
Rock Creek Park GC
Rolling Green GC
Seaview CC (Pines)
Shinnecock Hills GC
Springdale GC
Sunnybrook GC (now Flourtown CC)
US Naval Academy GC
Washington Golf and CC
Westchester CC (construction, maybe some redesign)
Whitemarsh Valley CC
Woodcrest CC
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man, I don'tthink I've played ANY Flynn courses :'(
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There's one in your back yard, Paul; Glen View, you ought to see it. David Esler redid the bunkers (interpretively) but it is a fine course and a great club.
Come to Philadelphia sometime, it is the land of Flynn. There's about 19 or so. History, museums, orchestra, great restaurants, cheesteaks and golf--Philadelphia has a lot to offer.
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Homestead - Cascades
Homestead - Old Course
Columbia CC
CC of VA - James River
Wayne - I thought I remembered reading that Flynn had something to do with Chevy Chase at one point?
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Wayne;
Atlantic City CC
Bala GC
Boca Raton GC (almost nothing left)
Concord
East Potomac Park
Gulph Mills
Huntingdon Valley
Lehigh
Manor (revisions)
Manufacturers
Merion (East)
North Hills
Philadelphia CC
Philmont
Pine Valley
Rolling Green
Seaview (Pines)
Shinnecock Hills
Whitemarsh Valley
Hoping to get to Lancaster and a few others this year.
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For some people it certainly helps to be writing a Flynn book. ;)
And the Philly guys have an advantage, as well.
My list is short enough, I can remember them in order:
Pine Valley (walked 16 holes during Crump Cup)
Woodcrest
Huntingdon Valley
Lehigh
Rolling Green
Manor
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Wayne,
Huntingdon Valley
Philmont (North)
Rolling Green
Seaview (Bay) You counting that?
Whitemarsh Valley
Doylestown CC
Philly Cricket
North Hills
If that's Springdale in Princeton, then that one too.
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Wayne 15 for me
Philly Country
Philly Cricket
Whitemarsh Valley
Sunnybrook
North Hill
Shinnecock
Rolling Green
Lancaster (My current favorite flynn)
Philmont
Manny's
Huntingdon Valley
Plymouth
Green Valley
US Naval Academy (very underated, some amazing greens)
Merion East
Jason
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Cabell,
Chevy Chase? Not that I've heard. Flynn did a lot of work in the area, but nothing I've found leads to Chevy Chase. If you know anyone there that might help to determine if Flynn did anything, I'd appreciate it.
Mike C,
I don't think there's anything at all left of Flynn at Boca Raton. I've been to both courses there and there's hardly any land that is common. Craig Disher looked at the aerials (old and modern) and was convinced there's nothing there of Flynn.
Kyle,
That's the one. The Princeton University course is a Flynn redesign. The routing was pretty much unchanged and Flynn redesigned all the holes. The fairway bunkering was redone and all looks the same--not Flynn-like at all.
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Let's see...
Cricket
Whitemarsh Valley
Sunnybrook
Rolling Green
Philmont North
Manunfacturers
Huntingdon Valley
Green Valley
Merion East
Atlantic City
Doylestown
Seaview Pines
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Wayne
What did Flynn do at Cricket?
Steve
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Philadelphia Cricket - This is news to me what was Flynn's involvement? I had always thought it was all Tillinghast.
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Wayne,
Yeah, I've examined that too (Boca) and it seems only perhaps a hole corridor or two is the same.
I was stretching. :-[ ;D
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Wayne,
What have you learned about, or what is your view of Woodcrest CC. I'm very familiar with the course, having worked there for 2 years during my Asst. Pro days about 11 years ago. I also know Fred R. a member, is a contibutor to GCA sometimes.
I always thought Woodcrest was alot different from many of Flynn's other local designs. Alot of Flynn's Philly area courses have a "big" feel to them. HVCC, Lancaster, Philly CC, Rolling Green to name a few. Woodcrest is very unlike those courses, in that it has smaller greens, narrower playing corridors, and a tight feel to it. I haven't been over there in a while, and I'm not sure it has been done, but I do know that the course could have used some much needed tree clearing.
If I remember correctly, weren't some of Flynn's original holes at Woodcrest lost due to road construction many years ago?
As for my Flynn list:
Atlantic City CC
Bala GC
Columbia CC
Doylestown CC
Gulph Mills GC
Huntingdon Valley CC
Indian Creek CC
Lancaster CC
Lehigh CC
Manufacturers CC
Marble Hall (now known as Green Valley)
Merion East
North Hills CC
Philadelphia Country Club
Philadelphia Cricket Club
Philmont North
Pine Valley GC
Rolling Green GC
Seaview CC (Pines)
Springdale GC
Sunnybrook GC (now Flourtown CC)
Westchester CC (construction, maybe some redesign)
Whitemarsh Valley CC
Woodcrest CC
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Wayne
You may decline to do so but are you willing to rank your coterie according to most fun to play?
Ward Peyronnin
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Huntington Valley
Philadelphia Country Club
Pine Valley
Gulph Mills
HV and PCC are two of my favorite all time. I would love to see more Flynn but not too many in the southeast. Hoping to get back to Philly and see RG and Man soon.
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OK, if I tell you guys about Phila Cricket you'll still buy the book, right?
In 1928 Flynn did an extensive redesign only 4 years after the course opened. Flynn added bunkers around the course. He changed the then 4th hole (current 7th) where he took out the chocolate drops-maybe the alpinization that Tillie favored and extended the right bunker short of the green into the fairway. On the 5th (current 8th) Flynn shortened the hole and got rid of the mandatory 180 yard carry that would shoot over the green. This caused a lot of back-ups so he shortened the hole. It has sinjce been reversed back to the old fashion. Flynn's 6th (current 9th) added another the tee to the left and added bunkers left and right on the fairway making for a bold drive from the left that carried a series of bunkers and played like a dogleg. On the right tee the shot was straight into a 50 yard wide fairway. On his 7th hole (current 11th) Flynn redesigned the entire hole as a double dogleg redoing the bunkers and the green. On his 9th (current 6th) Flynn new tees were built to the right of the old ones and a series of bunkers were placed down the right side of the fairway (the pits are still there). All bunkers were remodeled on this hole and being so short, he required more accuracy. Flynn built up the current short 10th tee 2 feet so the green would not be concealed by the front bunker. Flynn hollowed out the front of the green. On the 12th, Flynn moved the tee to the right requiring a wonderful carry over the quarry. He added bunkers along the left side. The bunkers are still there but the tee is not--too bad, it would be awesome! He also redid the green. Flynn added a large bunker on the right side of the 13th fairway forcing play to the left or requiring a strong carry to clear. Flynn redesigned the green. Flynn added two fairway bunkers that pinched the 150 yard area (not his normal practice) and remodeled the green on the 14th. Lastly, Flynn moved the tee on 17 to the left.
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Wayne, Ive experienced about 16-17 of his fine designs.
i will try to list later this weekend. I feel that the elegant
routing at Cleveland's Country Club should be seen by more.
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Mike C,
Yep, that's what we came up with at Boca. Too bad those courses were lost. But there may be an opportunity to ressurect them (it is Easter time after all).
Jamie,
Woodcrest was orginally built as a public course. You're right on-that course seems different than other Flynns. Especially those really small greens. They look like they were built that way and not lost green space. Do you think he might have been trying to create a challenging public course? There have been lots of bunker changes over the years, far more modern in style and they really stand out next to the clamshell sort favored by Flynn on the site. The proliferation of trees was a fad that should be reversed here. Even without the trees, it wouldn't have the feel of Philly Country, Huntingdon Valley or even Rolling Green. I'm not so sure the holes were changed, but we don't have any drawings to be sure. I've only been there once with Fred Rutenberg.
RE Blanks,
Get back up here! Lots of Flynn to see. There is a 9-hole Flynn in Plymouth, NC built for a Pine Valley member for his factory employees called Plymouth Country Club. As far as I know, only Adam Messix has been there from the treehouse members.
Ward,
That would be very hard to do and would not be scientific in the least. I'd factor in stuff like engineering made to look natural, NLEs and stuff not too many would care about. I've really never tried to do it but without thinking about it, I'd say something like this for original designs I've been to:
Shinnecock Hills (my choice for best course in America)
Merion East
Boca Raton South
The Country Club, Brookline (best parkland bunkers I've ever seen--they're maintained perfectly to this day)
Rolling Green (needs a bit of tweeking but they don't listen to me)
Huntingdon Valley
The Kittansett Club
The Cascades
Indian Creek (completely man-made, a surviving Lido category course)
Philadelphia Country Club
The Country Club, Pepper Pike (this could go higher, Mark Chalfont; you're absolutely right it should be seen by more of us)
Lancaster
Lehigh
Denver CC (if it was built according to Flynn plans)
Manufacturers
Opa Locka (great use of water--imagine that from Flynn, sadly NLE)
Merion West
Atlantic City CC (as it was by Flynn)
Yorktown (as designed and built, NLE)
That's 20 or so. I'm probably leaving some obvious ones out, all typing no thinking you know. I don't know Cherry Hills (yet) but the original designs look interesting, I'll see it after work is completed. Mill Road Farm drawings look simply great! But I don't have topos and am not sure how it looked on the ground.
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Country Club
Pepper Pike
Elyria
Cascades
Cherry Hills
Shinnecock
As well as Columbia and Westchester....although I don't consider either Flynn courses.
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"As well as Columbia and Westchester....although I don't consider either Flynn courses. "
Neither do I, Tom. How can it be that you haven't been to Philadelphia yet? If you don't have plans to do so this year, you're not half the student of architecture that I thought you were ;)
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Wayne
WHY did Flynn do the redesign at Cricket? Were the members unhappy with Tillinghast's work or did Flynn approach the club? Why wasn't Tillinghast brought back?
Steve
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wayne how much did Flynn do at Gulph Mills? I think they claim it as a Donald Ross. I know that Maxwell did some greens.
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Good questions all, Steve. I have no idea and neither does anyone at the club. It sure was only a couple of years after the course opened. I wonder if Phil Young, Wolffe or Trebus might know what he was up to in 1936-1937. I would guess that Tillinghast was OK with the changes.
Again, I think the long par 3 towards the RR tracks was a big bottleneck to play and for a time it helped to alleviate congestion.
The changes Flynn made were in my mind improvements, especially the left tee on 9 with other design changes and the right tee on 12 with other hole changes. Aesthetically getting rid of the chocolate drops (awful to look at--maybe Tillie didn't want to get rid of them) was a good thing.
Interestingly, Flynn-with Tillinghast's approval made changes to Sunnehanna in 1937 when Tillinghast was still alive.
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RE Blanks,
He generally improved agronomics and regrassed all but one green. I don't think he did any architectural work.
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"As well as Columbia and Westchester....although I don't consider either Flynn courses. "
Neither do I, Tom. How can it be that you haven't been to Philadelphia yet? If you don't have plans to do so this year, you're not half the student of architecture that I thought you were ;)
Wayne-
Did Flynn/Toomey do the construction of Columbia for Travis? We already know he redesigned holes #1 and 2.
-DRB
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I don't think so, Doug. He did build Westchester for Travis in 1920. But Columbia was built by Dr. Walter Harban (a friend of Flynn). Cornish and Whitten show two Columbia CC in Chevy Chase-one by Harban and one by Herbert Barker (former head pro at Garden City). I'm guessing that Barker built the first in 1910 and Harban either built his or rebuilt Barker's sometime between 1910 and 1916. Letters from Wilson to Piper/Oakley mention Columbia often always referencing Harban. That's why I always assumed Flynn's work was on Harban's course.
C and W state that Harban's course at Columbia is NLE. Maybe Flynn redesigned the 2 holes on the Barker course, I'm not sure at all anymore.
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Wayne,
That's really interesting.
Similarly, I've been trying to get the real scoop about the courses at Potomac Park in DC.
At present, there is an 18 hole course on the East side of the park and a nine holer on the west side that is clearly different architecturally.
C&W list Robert White as the 1920 architect of "East" Potomac Park, with Flynn making revisions sometime later, but also list Walter Travis and Walter Harban as architects of "West" Potomac Park, which is NLE.
I've speculated that the west side of the park is actually the Travis/Harban course, while the east side is the White/Flynn one.
Anyone know the real scoop?
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CCV James
CC Pepper Pike
Navy
Homestead-Cascades
Springdale
Cricket
Pine Valley?
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The present Columbia was originally laid out by Herbert Barker, then remodeled by Travis prior to the US Open (Barker had left the US to fight for Britain in WWI).
Barker is an under-appreciated architect. Mayfield near Cleveland is fabulous. Barker also collaborated with Colt on a course north of Chicago.
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Wayne,
That's really interesting.
Similarly, I've been trying to get the real scoop about the courses at Potomac Park in DC.
At present, there is an 18 hole course on the East side of the park and a nine holer on the west side that is clearly different architecturally.
C&W list Robert White as the 1920 architect of "East" Potomac Park, with Flynn making revisions sometime later, but also list Walter Travis and Walter Harban as architects of "West" Potomac Park, which is NLE.
I've speculated that the west side of the park is actually the Travis/Harban course, while the east side is the White/Flynn one.
Anyone know the real scoop?
Mike, I looked at the two courses last summer, and there is an 18-holer, as well as two nines, the "Red" and "White". The "white" nine, if I remember correctly, looked the most different. When coming into the park from Ohio Av, the "White" is the one to your right; after you pull into the parking lot at EPP, the Blue is in the center, pretty much an out-and-back layout, and the Red is over to the left.
Look at www.golfdc.com , although I doubt they know any more than us. Any information I found was inconclusive.
Rock Creek was also one Wayne, Craig, Tom and I observed last summer, and still has some characteristics of Flynn to it, if you know what to look for. Many bunkers are filled in, but the shapes of the greens and the way the holes are routed over the land is unmistakeable.
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My experience of Flynn solo designs include
Cascades
Phila CC
Shibe Park
CC in Cleveland
Huntingdon Valley
Fort McHenry
Shinnecock Hills
Dumbarton Oaks
Lehigh
Rittenhouse Square
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Philmont
Merion
Pine Valley
Rolling Green
Morrison National
Manufacturer's
Philly Country
Paul Field
Lehigh
Mc Call
HVCC
Concord
Plymouth
Cricket
Bala
GMGC
Green Valley
Whitemarsh
Working on Lancaster and Shinnecock.
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...and bringing up the rear...
Elyria Country Club (Elyria, OH)
Lehigh Country Club (Allentown, PA)
Normandy Shores Golf Course (Miami Beach, FL)
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Mayday;
I've never played William Flynn's GMGC---is that one any good?
I heard that Paul Field is one of the world's true hidden gems but that Morrison National really sucks. ;)
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Let's see, Flynn Courses that I can recall:
Philly CC
Manufacturers
Huntingdon
Lancaster
Lehigh
Cascades
Rolling Green
Hoping to play at least 3 more this year
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I've played only one Flynn, Indian Creek and boy was it just a treat!
Lawrence
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Just two - Rolling Green and Woodcrest.
Wayne - you know what I think about RG - If it were in almost any other region than Philly, it'd be the best course in the area. And, amazingly, few know just how good it is. (Thanks again for the GCA outing in 2003!)
Woodcrest seemed to be in need of Mike's tree management program. That said, I thought it had some of the niftiest sets of par 3's I've ever seen on a course. I understand that Woodcrest 17 and 18 aren't Flynn originals?
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TEPaul,
Your boy,Wayno, has GMGC on his list at the start of the thread
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Mayday:
I realize he does. But hey, if you want to call regrassing 17 of our greens in the early 1920s designing the course that's fine by me. Wayne and I have talked about that situation. It's a pretty funny story. I guess the pro/super/self appointed golf architect, ACCC's original designer John Reid had a situation over there where the putting green turf basically totally failed and he couldn't handle it so GMGC brought in agronomy experts Wilson and Flynn from Merion to do something about it and they did. Over that John Ried quit! Oh well, what're gonna do---other than get good greens?
Actually, the real story is Wilson and Flynn called Reid and told him they wanted to talk to him about GMGC's greens and they wanted to talk to him at a local diner over dinner on a Friday night and the next thing GMGC knew John Reid just cried uncle cut and left. ;)
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David Esler redid the bunkers (interpretively) but it is a fine course and a great club.
Wayne,
Not sure why you included the but in describing Esler's work. Could you explain if you think his interpretation was wrong?
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I've played or seen most of Flynn's designs, missing only about a dozen (depending on what courses you give Flynn credit for).
As far as David Esler's work; he will tell you himself that he didn't like the look of Flynn's "ordinary" and "plain" style bunkers so he added some of his own lacy edges to them. The members call them "Eslers". They do not look like Flynn bunkers and that was on purpose. That is obvious the minute you see the golf course.
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Mark,
Do you find the bunkering at Shinnecock to be "ordinary" and "plain"?
The Flynn bunkering at Indian Creek was (not is) incredible, very ragged and lacy.
I saw a picture of the dramatic 12th hole with bunkering that was far from ordinary.
I would agree with you that the bunkering today is very blah, and it puzzles me that the club isn't planing on returning to the Flynn style with the Forse restoration.
Do you know how Flynn's bunkering was GV opened?
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Wayne,
I have walked more than I have played, but a suprising 14.
I'm not sure how ones like Westchester count though.
It helped to meet with you and Tom twice, because I saw the work I liked the most on those trips. Huntingdon Valley is the must see to me, and yes even more than Shinnecock. It's not better, it's just very unique in its architecture.
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Just two - Rolling Green and Woodcrest.
Wayne - you know what I think about RG - If it were in almost any other region than Philly, it'd be the best course in the area. And, amazingly, few know just how good it is. (Thanks again for the GCA outing in 2003!)
Woodcrest seemed to be in need of Mike's tree management program. That said, I thought it had some of the niftiest sets of par 3's I've ever seen on a course. I understand that Woodcrest 17 and 18 aren't Flynn originals?
I've only played Woodcrest once, and I agree that it would benefit from a tree removal program. But...(going off on a tangent) I know a member or two and when I brought up the idea of taking out some trees, I got the same response, "That would make the course too easy." I imagine that this misconception is pretty common.
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Shooter,
We were not talking about Shinnecock Hills, we were talking about the Flynn designed bunkers at Glen View. Esler thought what Flynn originally designed there was too plain and ordinary looking so he decided to add his own touch. He liked the look of some of Brookline's bunkers better so he used a combination of that and his own style. Ask him and he will tell you tell you just that.
Flynn did do some more dramatic bunkering on sites like Indian Creek and others, but not so on his parkland courses of which Glen View is one.
We have no plans for example to put Indian Creek style bunkers out at Cherry Hills (even though I love that ragged look) because they weren't like that at Cherry Hills to begin with. We could, but I sure wouldn't call it restoration. Would you?
I'm not suggesting a right or wrong. I'm just stating the facts. They can always change them again if they want to at Glen View.
Mark
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Mark,
I don't dobut what you say is fact.
Perhaps my question should be why Flynn had such a dramatically different bunkering style. Why do you think Flynn designed plain and ordinary bunkers on some of his courses? Would you classify Indian Creek as a parkland? I might. I'm not familar with Brookline though it sure looks like a parkland course as well.
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Shooter,
Inidan Creek is not parkland ;)
First of all there are always exceptions, but my theory about Flynn is that he was a superintendent as well as an architect and was always concerned about maintenance of his golf courses. He liked visibility of his bunkers, but he didn't flash sand very high on the faces unless he needed to in order to gain that visibility. This is particularly true on his parkland courses. Even at Shinnecock, he didn't design many high sand flashed bunkers. For most of the Flynn courses I have seen and studied, I have never really viewed Flynn's bunker work as artistic (at least compared for example to a Thomas or a Mackenzie). He didn't really do those flashy bunkers but they were always well placed but not what I'd call works of art.
I think that is what Esler found at Glen View and that's why he decided to do his own thing.
Mark
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Mike Malone,
You'll notice that my list included designs, redesigns and constructions. GMGC was a construction job where he regrassed 17 of 18 greens. Our research shows that AJ Drexel Paul had the best stash of Scotch around so Flynn did the job for drinks and giggles. He and ol' AJ got so drunk, they forgot to do the 18th green. True story!
By the way, Paul Field is a dog track (Tom's family did like Greyhound racing you know) with Coney Island Whitefish (you know what they are, right?) found in almost every bunker. He wanted to go bunkerless, but the local youth wouldn't have it. As for Morrison National, it has a policy of no Rolling Green members allowed--unless they pass the Tom Paul screening process. None have as yet, except me of course.
Shooter,
I think the membership is happy with the bunkering for the most part at Glen View Club. I'm not sure they like getting Eslered (stuck in the little nooks and crannies of the bunker surrounds). I was a bit surprised at the look. I think Flynn's generic looking parkland bunkering would have been a better finish. In the end Esler got approvals for the work he did although they are his own conceptual version of Brookline. I don't recall Esler saying that he thought the bunkers were too plain and ordinary looking --but he did his own interpretation of a Flynn style that didn't exist there, that's for sure. What do you think of the bunkers?
Flynn, I believe, designed rather plain bunkers on parkland courses because they weren't natural so why pretend they are. I also agree with Mark that as a former superintendent and one that cared about maintenance costs, the plainer margins would be easier/cheaper to maintain. For clubs like Merion and The Country Club, cost would not be such a factor.
I do disagree with Mark Fine and think of Flynn's bunker style as more varied, depending upon location. On sandy soil on or near the sea, Flynn's bunker style would get dramatic--especially on tame topography. Here Shinnecock Hills, Atlantic City Country Club, Boca Raton North and South, Kittansett and Indian Creek were excellent examples of bunker artistry and craft far more complex than his parkland work. Mark, compare these bunkers as conceived and built by Flynn with Mackenzie and Thomas and I would think they would be favorably viewed. These bunkers were constructed in a way so that they would evolve in a specific manner if maintained properly. Maintenance practices changed at Shinnecock and Indian Creek for example and the interesting character of the bunker style was lost.
Ian,
I'm sure glad we had the chance to walk some Flynn's together, especially our morning at Huntingdon Valley. I know you'll try to get back down here; there's lots more to see.
I think the very frilly nature of the Merion bunkers was something that Valentine or maybe Flynn and Valentine developed after a number of years, certainly after the 1934 Open. I'll try to find out who/what/when they started being maintained that way. Time to call Richie V.
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The evolution of East Potomac Park is a hard nut. Unless someone has documents (many inquiries to the Nat'l Park Svc have led nowhere) that show who built what when, I don't think we'll ever know for certain.
At one point there were 36 holes at EPP. My guess is that Flynn had a role in 18 of them, probably the ones on the western end of the peninsula. All 36 were intact in 1940 but by 1948, the western 18 were being reduced to 9 - some Park Svc offices were being built on some of the land and since the 18 were sequeezed onto a tiny piece of land, there must have been safety problems.
Here's a recent picture of the 6th hole on the current western nine. It was built no earlier than 1948 so Robt White is perhaps the best candidate. I'm not familiar with his other courses; perhaps someone could comment on whether this is representative of his work. The mounds and ridges appear larger in person - and were probably much larger when constructed. The mound behind the green is at least 10-12' high - very noticeable on such flat ground.
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7zuyh/epotomac6a.jpg)
West Potomac Park probably refers to a 9-hole course that existed around the Lincoln Memorial until at least 1940. It had sand greens and not much else. It was a course for blacks since EPP was a segregated facility until after WWII. That area around the Lincoln and Roosevelt Memorials is officially "West Potomac Park."
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"unless they pass the Tom Paul screening process."
Wayne:
Basically there is no Tom Paul screening process---as I'm an extremely laissez faire kinda guy. If I ran a club, though, the only think I'd ask for is personal commonsense and manners--period---end of rules. If some old fart entered a club dining room and started gratuitously using foul language at the top of his voice with members including women and children around and then when asked to stop he pontificated that he had some right to do something like that because he'd been a member of the club for thirty years, I'd simply tell him (very calmly, I might add) to remove himself from the club immediately and never return for any reason. I'd tell him if he didn't have everything he owned at the club outta there within five minutes the club would be more than happy to send it to him at his expense and if he wasn't willing to pay the postage it would all be thrown away by the end of that day!
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David Esler's bunkering at Glen View was an interpretive look on Flynn bunkering on his part but if you ask me it was most interesting in play (the prospect of "getting Eslered") and in look (particularly if the club keeps those grass surrounds a bit shaggier) and friankly a real improvement on some original Flynn bunkering I've seen and definitely an improvement on the way some Flynn bunkering at some Flynn courses has evolved over time through maintenance practices.
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I never said the Tom Paul screening test was rigorous--or exclusive in a pejorative sense. Members need only have common sense and courtesy. Unfortunately this rules out a sizable portion of a certain club I know with just the kind of old farts you characterized.
Tom,
Is what appeals to you most, the random nature of the lies you can get in the Esler style bunkering at GVGC? Sort of a good luck-bad luck iffiness?
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Wayne,
I think you know how many clubs would be short of members if the TEP screening process was in force. Sadly, many of this type wind up at golf clubs which need the revenue. The decline of manners may also be irreversible as bad drives out the good.
Should "good luck-bad luck iffiness" be avoided in designing bunkers? I always thought they were hazards, not just a place to practice a different swing technique. ;)
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Most of the vintage photos I have seen reveal flashed bunkers for Flynn... and I'm not sure what constitutes an artistic bunker, but IMO Flynn's bunkers are for the most part very stylish. I've seen Flynn parkland bunkers with a jagged edge. And I'm not sure the Sahara-like bunker he utilized on occasion in the mid to late 20's was meant only for seaside locations. Didn't he plant some of those bunkers at Cherry Hills and propose some at Cascades? Afterall PVGC, most likely the inspiration, was not located by the sea.
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Tom,
I agree, Tom. I don't think Mark Fines characterization of Flynn's bunker styles is very accurate. True, he had a tendency to use simple bunker outlines, but it ignores a sizeable portion of his other styles. Far from a singular style, he had a nice range of styles. I'll try to do a bunker tribute to Flynn as you did with Ross sometime. I think the notion of Flynn as a plain vanilla bunker builder would be disproved. He did have a tendency to use simple forms but certainly not exclusively. And he did have a tendency to flash up sand faces.
Flynn's use of Sahara style bunkering at the original 4th at Lancaster (1920 but NLE), 4th at Huntingdon Valley (1927), 1st at Philadelphia Country (1927), 12th Pine Valley (1921)--well, Flynn built it and there are a lot of similarities to other Flynn designs before and after) and other places sure weren't plain generic stuff at all-and many were in parkland courses at that.
Flynn's use of undulating sandy waste areas at Atlantic City CC, Denver CC, Norfolk CC, Indian Creek, Shinnecock Hills, Boca Raton South and North and other courses is pretty darn aesthetic as well with the mounds and sandy wastes sometimes discreet other times blending in naturally.
Some of the bases of Flynn's bunkers at Indian Creek had wave-like surfaces; not flat.
Flynn's bunkering of the 1st at Merion East is anything but plain and this is true on many of the other holes at Merion East.
I cannot see any planned use of a Sahara style bunker at the Cascades, but he sure meant to put in undulating sandy wastes at the 14th and a small one on the left side of 16. Perhaps he intended to revise 12 and 13 as well--all flat lands.
Craig,
I guess you're right, it is an unfortunate truth that memberships have a range of personalities. Often times when clubs were in financial troubles the admission standards were relaxed, especially in the 1970s. These blokes are now 30+ year members and they think they own the place and everyone should accept their faults by default. You know I do not!
I think iffiness should be designed in and maintained (no rakes). They are hazards and not wished-for lies in comparison to the surrounding fairway and greenside rough.
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Tom and Wayne,
What is artistic and what is ordinary is somewhat subjective. Same goes for what is flashed and what is not. I didn't say Flynn didn't flash sand nor did I say he used flat bottom grass faced bunkers. What I said was that he was usually very practical about it. If he set bunkers near a green for example where the normal approach shot would come in from a point above, he tended not to flash as much sand (he didn't need to because the bunker would be clearly visible without doing so). At the same time he didn't offen flash sand to a point where there was hardly a rolled over grass lip.
Look at some of the "restoration" work that guys like Forse have done and you will see what I mean. I assume they are doing "restoration" ;)
Wayne you always bring up the same few courses when you talk about Flynn's "artistic" bunkers AND I AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THESE. But the bunkers at his other 40 or so courses don't necessarily have that same "artistic" and dramatic look. Again, maybe its just our definition of artistic and dramatic that differ. Wayne, another way to say it would be like this; wasn't it pretty obvious about the bunkers at Glen View and Pepper Pike. Did they look like Flynn bunkers to you? You know what I'm getting at. Our opinions are not that far off.
You've both read and studied Flynn enough to know that Flynn wasn't into the lacy edged bunkering like Bell would do on most of his designs. Yes Flynn had varied styles (most every great architect did/does). But they also had prefered tendencies and I believe that Flynn's tended to be more subdued and with less concern about asthetics compared to some other architects.
While at dinner with Esler out at Glen View, he told he almost exactly the same about his research on Flynn. He decided to use a style that was different then what Flynn first designed at Glen View and go with something more dramatic but not as prevalent on Flynn courses.
Mark
By the way Tom, I have old photos of Cherry Hills bunkering and they might surprise you. If those edges were there that you are talking about they didn't last long.
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Mark
Did Flynn alter the bunkering when he redesigned Cherry Hills?
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Mark:
In my opinion, it probably isn't all that worthwhile to get into that much of a detailed discussion of "Flynn bunkers" at some of his golf courses. If Flynn had a bunker "style" it was probably one of "evolution" or "site specific" on any course as almost any architect I've ever heard of. The reasons for that are many in my opinion. Bunkering to Flynn was basically suplementary to topography in most cases and Flynn also believed in bunker adustment as a rule (if a client would permit it). Flynn was also perhaps one of the greatest grass experts of his time and that seems to be the primary reason he beileved the "grassing aesthetic" of his bunker was something that could benefit from time and evolution---eg one of the reasons they looked fairly generic and bland in the beginning as did Merion East's and Shinnecock's. His expectation that the grassing would simply grow in and look a lot cooler over time. This is vastly different from some of the architects today like C&C, Doak and Hanse today who's bunkers look like they've been there for decades when they open the course. This seemed to be the case with MacKenzie etal and the American Construction Co at CPC and Pebble too.
I can't really recall what Flynn's bunkering at Glen View looked like at it's best but I feel this Esler bunkering although it may not look that much like Flynn's ever did on that particular course may be better than it ever was. Esler told me that night we were all there that he got his interpretation of those Glen View bunkers from studying Merion East's bunkering. I'm not so sure I understand that or see it but I still like what he did at Glen View alot whether it looks like Flynn's bunker there or not.
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"I can't really recall what Flynn's bunkering at Glen View looked like at it's best but I feel this Esler bunkering although it may not look that much like Flynn's ever did on that particular course may be better than it ever was."
TE
Is that your professional opinion as the preeminate Flynn expert? I've only seen one picture of Glen View post Flynn and the bunkering was interesting...bold capes, fairly unusual for Flynn from my limited knowledge.
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Tom M,
Explain what you mean by alter his bunkering during re-design??
Mark
Tom,
I agree it is not really worth a debate, nor do I have the time. I thought Esler said it was Brookline's bunkers he was trying to emulate but whatever. The point was that they were not what Flynn originally did there. I think we at least all agree on that ;)
Mark
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Tom MacWood:
Did Flynn redesign whose bunkering when he redesigned Cherry Hills?
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From what I understand Flynn was hired to re-tool Cherry Hills prior to the 1938 US Open (and Philadelphia CC prior to the '39 Open)...an Open Doctor operating on himself...fairly unusual.
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"From what I understand Flynn was hired to re-tool Cherry Hills prior to the 1938 US Open (and Philadelphia CC prior to the '39 Open)...an Open Doctor operating on himself...fairly unusual."
Correct but not that unusual. He continued retooling Lancaster and Cascades too for about a decade or two. All those clubs and Flynn only did those things to confuse purist/perservationist fanatics from Ohio 6 or 7 decades later. ;)
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I don't think Flynn had anything to do with Cherry Hills after it opened. I think Mark and I discussed this, though my recall might be faulty. What changes were done by Flynn for the 1938 Open at Cherry Hills?
Flynn did a major redesign of PCC prior to the 1939 Open. We have the records of Flynn's proposed changes-both writings and drawnings. They are quite specific and either followed or led the change of par from 71 to 69. He didn't change the routing (the current 10th fairway was altered) but he did change a number of hole bunker schemes and greens, particularly the current 12th. I'll try to post an original routing map of 1927 and the routing map in 1939 because you will clearly see an enhanced bunker look.
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Wayne
I don't have the details...I read about it in one of his obituaries, which is often a good source of info. I've seen a detailed breakdown of his changes at Philadelphia, but nothing on Cherry Hills. If you have his original plan for Cherry Hills, comparing it to the map of the course from the '38 Open might reveal the changes.
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I have made that comparison. It is hard to see detail on the 1938 aerial in the Open program.
The blueprints we have show only one hole with indicated changes; the 3rd hole. The fairway in the 1938 shows the pencil change (extended right and back towards tee). The long bunker on the left in pencil is in the aerial as well. The right fairway bunker in the aerial does not look like the the penciled change though it is in the same location. But I don't have any idea if this is the way the course was built originally or if it represents changes made for the 1938 Open.
According to N.C. Morris, the Secretary of the Colorado Golf Association, "The course has not been changed for the 1938 Blue Ribbon event in the world of professional golfing. Nor need it be. Several holes have been lengthened by the building of new tees not so much to add to the difficulty, as to make for better shots for the longer hitters and still not punish shorter hitters." According to Morris, the holes that had been lengthened are numbers 3 (+29), 5 (+8), 7 (+35) 8 (+5), 10 (+62), 11 (+87), 13 (+83), 14 (+33), 17 (+10) and 18 (+20). The 15th was also lengthened from the original plans from 115 to 160.
Other than tee lengthening and the above changes on 3, it seems that bunkers were added on 7, 9, 15 and 16. By the way, the green design on the blueprints for #4 is very interesting and unique.
I'm sure Mark Fine knows a lot more than this and I'm certain he will share it at some point...before the book is in print, I hope ;)
Could you please copy me the Flynn obit and email me? Thanks, Tom. I've not yet found one...I'll have to scour the Phila papers' archives better.
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Wayne,
Seems your pessimism is a bit unfounded (as of now... :-\) Either way, glad to see David Bell seemingly back to good health.
Not sure about Sunday yet, but I'll let you know.