Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Jack_Marr on February 13, 2005, 05:02:09 AM
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Has anyone ever played one of his courses. He is designing one in Leitrim in Ireland, kind of in the middle of nowhere, as well as his Bantra Island course. He's also making some adjustments in Ballyliffin's old course.
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Good morning Jack
Don't know about Faldo, but your boys looked fine yesterday. Now the Six Nations really begins for them! Big game today, a must win for England. If they can pull it off, this will help both Wales and Ireland to no end.
Ciao
Sean
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Good Morning Sean - Did you know that if England lose, Ireland will overtake them in the world rankings... Anyway, good luck to England today.
Ireland did well considering they were missing their two best players. I wasn't confident after the first 10 minutes, but after that...
Wales also looked good. Could be a great championship.
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Jack
England is really on the edge. I can really see them dropping three matches this championship. If that happens, it is a long road back for the World Cup! I do think England can beat France, if only because there are "several" French sides that can show up on any given day.
Ciao
Sean
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As reigning World Champions this tournament is just a warm up towards the main tournament that we last won...
Andy Robinson is just using this tournament to chop and change to find the right team...he is the Rugby version of Sven Erik... ;D
Enjoy your little run in the tournament but remember the real tournament these days (for real teams) is The World Cup.
Brian
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Who is designing the courses for Faldo?
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In Canada, he used Brit Stenson from IMG Design. Wouldn't shock me if it was the same in Europe -- I know that's who he used for his Asian designs.
He strikes me as someone who should know a thing or two about good golf courses, but won't likely spend the time on any of his projects to get any of his thoughts across.
R
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I think Robert is right. Nick has a few fish to fry as of yet, but I think he will eventually design some very good courses.
Ciao
Sean
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I liked Chart Hills and others on this site have said so, too. A few years ago, when he was playing in Australia, he went to R Melbourne simply to study the bunkers. He may have more interest in the design process than some other big names.
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Mark,
I am a member at Chart Hills where he collaborated with Steve Smyers - clearly as a right hand man to Steve. The course is awesome and I'll be interested to hear from anyone who did not enjoy their round of golf there and their reasons for not enjoying it... The course is full of his touches.
[As a slight side note] On the opening day, Faldo hit his opening drive 280y with a persimmon headed driver onto the right hand side of the fairway on a fine line over the diagonal cross bunkers. A reporter said he could not repeat the bold drive. Faldo duly obliged and hit a second ball to within 10 inches of the first! To this day a marble plaque sits in the fairway with the 2 rextar balls encassed with a date and time they were struck - Now thats good...
He has returned many times with his sketch book and his fishing rod and I have seen his notations from his site visits which he issued to then head greenkeeper, Paul Hobden. He has a sincere love for this stuff in my view and will turn out to be one of the best professional golfers / architects that there is - I'm sure he won't have it any other way...
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I played the Faldo course at the Shadow Ridge Marriott in Palm Springs.
I have played about 10 different courses in Palm Springs. The PGA West Stadium course is my favorite, and Shadow Ridge would be #2.
I get the feeling that it's hard to design a good course in the desert, but I really enjoyed Shadow Ridge.
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Oh, come on!
Who reallly thinks that Faldo is really doing any design. I don't. This is just the current fashion of big name players getting more money to their pockets.
It is a big shame to have this kind of cheating going around.
It is all about marketing the course with a big name that hardly knows what is going around during construction.
Jari
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I'm sure Chart Hills is really good, but I doubt Faldo had much to do with that. Smyers likely did all the important work there. In the case of Faldo's Canadian course, called the Rock, it was routed by another architect and he was there just two times, including the media opening where I interviewed him. He has a sense of design for sure -- but is simply too involved in too many projects to truly put his stamp on a golf course.
Maybe in time that'll change.
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We've heard from several sources that Mr. Faldo is truly interested in design ... but only to the point that he has worked with a lot of different designers on individual projects. He has not really committed himself to the business.
The Shadow Ridge course near Palm Springs is an excellent layout. Brian Curley and Lee Schmidt were the architects, with Faldo consulting.
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Oh, how wrong you are Jari! 8) you are mistaken. Faldo is actively involved now and was during Chart Hills.
But, I suppose you are correct in saying its marketing driven to some extent... of course it is - he is one of the greatest golfers of all time, but the difference is, you will not see many guys go back to these courses unscheduled with a couple of clubs, a sketch book in their back pocket and scribble ideas down for the betterment of the course...
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From what I heard, he will be very hands on, but who knows...
There will be a major development involved, with hotels and leisure facilities. It will make the Northwest more attractive for golfers. Won't be ready until 2008.
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James,
I would not call it designing if you can hit a driver where you want to and then do some notes on the course. I also would not call it designing if someone else does all the dirty work and you then fix a couple of bunkers here and there.
What I am most annoyed for is that the big names like Faldo are using their name as a designer when 99% of the work is done by someone else.
We should be talking about a course approved by Faldo not designed by him.
Jari
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Jari,
I agree with your sentiments in general, especially as I work in the industry as a golf course architect and we have lost projects to these guys.. I am just pointing out to you that in Faldo's case you are mistaken. He does actively take a role in the designing. I know this..
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[Ill-considered non-"Faldo design" content removed by request]
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Brent,
Thank you for your contribution to the thread.
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I think it is a little early to start critizing Faldo for any of his design principles.
As for slamming the poor guy for being a "name" only..give him a chance..they all have to learn somewhere, and if people are willing to pay....well that's the ultimate pay while you learn!
Everybody in the modern era had had to learn from somebody, Nicklaus did not just go out on his own for his first jobs...Chart Hills is a very promosing starting point, I have not played the course, but visited last summer and had an extensive"walkabout" and was impressed.
There are touches of what you would expect"Faldo" philosophy to include..good bunkering and green complexes..premium on fairway hitting..just very sound architecture..I am sure he required some degree of collaberation because if his inexperience in the business, but that does not mean his input should be minimised by people who do not know all the details.
I would love to get to play the course next time..nudge nudge..wink wink!!!
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Smyers designed Chart Hills with occasional comments from Faldo.
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Mark,
That's correct. Ive been there since 96 and have seen him come and go a number of times. Last time he was there he had his fishing rod and his camera with a huge zoom lens and was happily snapping pics of the course whilst making his notations with the then general manager, Roger Hyder.
His introduction into architecture with SS - who in my opinion is a fine architect was a fine collaboration. I was in Orlando this week and saw Southern Dunes which again is a great edition to his portfolio.
Michael,
Couldn't agree more - I will be willing to bet that NF will become an extremely hands on architect.
I can set the game up whenever you wish to play... Summer is clearly a better time for course condition in our neck of the woods.
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Since there have been as many different architects as there have been Faldo courses, it would be hard to think of him as having any consistent style or approach. The Rock in Canada, was strictly a Brit Stenson design, which Faldo only saw a couple of times.
He was a great player -- but the jury is entirely out on his abilities as a designer. I somehow doubt he'll ever spend the time to become a force in the business, with his continued play, lobbying for the Ryder Cup captaincy, TV commentating, etc.
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I recall having heard about a potential collaboration between Gil Hanse and Nick Faldo that has since fizzled.
That might have been an interesting partnership.
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Isn't Nick still designing this course in Hutchinson, KS???
http://www.cottonwoodhills.net/MasterPlanMap/main.html
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Out of interest... how much time does our latest GCSAA award winner Jack Nicklaus, along with Gary Player, Arnold Palmer, Greg Norman etc spend on site?
(a purely professional question and no hidden agendas)
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I'd be surprised if Palmer spends much time at all -- Ed Seay is clearly his guy when it comes to design. I was at a Palmer course opening once and Arnold clearly had no club about the course.
As for Jack, I think he's fairly hands on -- especially on interesting properties. Take Florida's Ocean Hammock, for example.... clearly some one spent a lot of time on the details. Norman is similar, I'd bet.
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James
Nicklaus - about 8 visits on a signature course which is enough for him
Palmer: 2 days: breaking ground and grand opening
Player: grand opening on most
Norman: probabaly about 8 visits - not bad
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I was particularly impressed with Faldo's first design effort at Shadow Ridge. I thought he did a very nice job with the land he had to work with- interesting, varied holes with beautiful bunkering. I hope he does a lot more courses, because I think he will produce excellent products. P.S I think his t.v. commentary has been outstanding too.
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Mark, Robert,
Thats interesting stuff - more than Id expect from those guys.
So how much time would Ben Crenshaw spend on site, considering he is part of one of the most inovative and progressive design partnerships of the moment?
...and do you have any knowledge of how long NF spent on site at Shadow Ridge for instance just so that we can get some comparables?
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Crenshaw spends as much time as needed on site for the course to be the best it can possibly be. He is thoroughly involved in every phase of the design from routing to fine sculpting of the putting surfaces. Bill spends a lot of time on the routing and it shows.