Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: TEPaul on January 19, 2005, 07:17:22 AM
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When I think of all the great old courses that have roadways whether local roads or internal driveways and such within them it makes me wonder if they're a sort of quaint feature rather than the semi-bother most see them as.
I can think of so many wonderful older courses like that where macadam of one type of roadway or another is often across or very closely juxtaposed to "in play" golf.
But I can't think of any modern courses at all that have this feature. I'm sure most will say it's due to liability today and such, but I wonder if it couldn't be done again somehow like it was so often in the old days.
Are there any good examples of road and drives and such on modern courses that are as close to "In play" golf as the drive of NGLA is to the 17th green or the 1st hole or perhaps the closest I know of---the 17th at Maidstone where a local road is a mere 6-7 STEPS from the 17th green surface?
And I'm most certainly not talking about the ever-present macadam cart paths that are all over so many modern courses.
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Tom.....the seventh hole at the Patriot has Maidstone beat.
....maybe you and Wayne could play it as your're passing through.
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Do runways qualify? Casa de Campo, 11th hole
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Paul:
Glad to hear it. What kind of road is it and what did you need to go through with liability concern?
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I think many of us far underestimate the impact of safety and liability in modern golf course architecture. It's sad but it is very true. I can picture an architect explaining to his insurance company that the reason he suggested having a road run through the middle of his golf hole was because it added character to the design. I think he would be looking for a new carrier pretty quickly :)
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Cuscowilla's main entrance road crosses in front of the 6th tee. (You cross it again walking from the 6th green to the 7th tee, if that counts.)
But as to your larger point, I would like to see more modern designs use their urban surroundings. Roads, railway tracks, fences, buildings, signage. Those things are more natural to an intown course than trees and bushes. Spend less time and money hiding them. To the contrary, use 'em.
I would love to see a good modern design use, say, a gas station as the back-drop to a green.
Unlike housing developments, there is a wonderful randomness to urban features. And in a perverse way, they can be as beautiful as the heathlands.
Bob
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Bob,
There are plenty of modern courses that use gas stations, Wendy's Restaurants, Wal-Marts, etc as backdrops. But I'm not sure the architects are too happy about it ;)
But do you really think you could "strategically" use roads that are "in-play" as Tom says on many modern designs? I really wish you were right as I love all that quirkiness that you generally find on the old designs.
By the way, who insures your work?
Mark
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"I think many of us far underestimate the impact of safety and liability in modern golf course architecture."
Mark:
Interesting point and all I can say is I certainly hope safety and liability concerns are not being UNDER-estimated today in modern construction. If they are one wonders why so few courses today do not remotely have some of the roadway juxtapositions of so many of the old courses.
I do know what the current "logic" of the law is today on this issue (because I did some extensive checking through the NCA with a whole laundry list of relatively recent safety lawsuits).
The legal guideline seems to be basically that the law assumes that golf is inherently dangerous and that any course must simply do "the best they can". This does not entail doing something that removes potential danger issues completely---the law assumes that would be an unreasonable or impossible thing to do.
It is also true that the situations on numerous older courses are basically "grandfathered" to a presumption that the courses "only do the best they can" with what they have (and with what obviously predates most of today's safety rules). If it were otherwise the law would require that almost entire holes be redesigned on various older courses and I think we all realize that is not going to happen---even in the eyes of the law!!
Just imagine what would happen to a course like Merion East if that were the case.
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"But do you really think you could "strategically" use roads that are "in-play" as Tom says on many modern designs?"
Mark:
Who said anything about an architect claiming he was using a road "strategically"? Any architect who said something like that would be a total idiot, in my opinion. Is the road 6-7 steps from the 17th green at Maidstone "strategic"? Can a golfer be found who would claim that road was part of his "strategy"? If so perhaps all of us in golf should begin to redefine what we mean by "strategic"! ;)
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Mark -
As Tom notes, none of those features would be "in play". But you could sure as heck see them around the course. Bottom line is that you save on landscaping and get a truly unique urban design that is "natural" to is setting.
As a member in good standing of the Georiga bar, I continue to believe that the liablility issues that architects worry so much about are overblown. No doubt there are legitimate concerns, but the legal standard is not that no one should be ever harmed under any circumstances.
In my cursory review of the reported cases, liability comes up usually in the context of course operations. There is rarely liability found for a design. And if your insurance company tells you otherwise, ask them to show you the reported cases finding architectural negligence. I would like to see them.
Bob
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Tom,
I cant think of any roads, but I can think of hundreds of ill placed bloody cart paths, those ugly parts of modern day golf that can threaten to ruin even the prettiest of holes.
One of things I do admire Tom Fazio on, is his ability to hide his cart paths..at least on the four or five of his more recent works I have played...I know that is done by unatural mounding, but at least you done see the confounded things.
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Tom,
You first used the words "in-play". I guess I misunderstood what you meant by that?
I agree with your explaination about older courses being "grandfathered" to some extent. However, doesn't that imply if a modern course were to attempt to employ a similar design feature, they would have a potential liability problem because they are not "grandfathered"?
Mark
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Bob,
You might be surprised at how much liability and claims some courses have to deal with. If you happen to know something I don't know, I would love to chat with you about it.
Mark
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Help me out here, is anybody actually suggesting that a road of any nature crossing or closely adjacent to a hole adds to the value of that hole?
Also, I absolutely think the road at Maidstone's 17th can play some strategic role. Whether that was the architects intention or not would be hard to determine (was the road even there when the course was built?), but under certain circumstances you would consider it in your play of the hole.
Jim
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Jim:
I don't know if Tom is suggesting that any of those roads make the golf holes better, but they do tie in the course to the community.
Think of all the courses where public roads are in play ... starting with St. Andrews, Shinnecock Hills, National Golf Links, Cypress Point, Pebble Beach, and Merion.
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Tom
I can't speak to National or Cypress, and I would agree with you in regards to the road / community relationship at St. Andrews and Pebble if I stretch my imagination, but how would the road at Shinnecock or Merion tie in the community? Is there something in the history of these courses you referrence (all except St. Andrews) that would help me understand this concept?
I would suggest the roads at Shinnecock and Pebble only take away from those courses (although not a significant factor) because they have virtually zero effect on your round other than the inconvenience of a car crossing your path, while the roads bordering Merion's #2, #14 and #15 and St. Andrews #17 and #18 play a significant role.
Would you agree that a road could be used strategically? I think the above mentioned examples are good proof of their possible usefullness.
Jim
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Jim,
Roads can be great strategically, go play Rye. But all those courses mentioned are old, very old. Lawyers weren't invented yet ;)
Mark
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"Would you agree that a road could be used strategically? I think the above mentioned examples are good proof of their possible usefullness."
JESII;
I guess I should amend what I said about roads being used strategically. Sure they can be. As you mentioned, the roads beside Merion's #2 and #15 certainly are used strategically as the best place to approach either green from is as close to them as possible! Merion's always called that unique design set-up "playing close to OB for the best shot" into varioius holes such as #2, #6 (drive), #7, #8, #15.
While things like this are true what I mean to say about some architect mentioning he was using roads (like Merion does) today in a strategic sense would be madness because at least he'd be raising a true red-flag!! Let him use roads strategically if he wants, but whatever he does he certainly shouldn't admit publicly to doing it!! ;)
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While things like this are true what I mean to say about some architect mentioning he was using roads (like Merion does) today in a strategic sense would be madness because at least he'd be raising a true red-flag!! Let him use roads strategically if he wants, but whatever he does he certainly shouldn't admit publicly to doing it!! ;)
True, unfortunate but true. I wonder if the 18th at St. Andrews could/would not be conceived today as a result of this legal phenomenon=>(a brainfreeze left that as the only word I could come up with).
Jim
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Jim:
Matter of fact, even the best architects---even the very best from the old days who held TOC in a great deal of esteem mentioned (in writing) that the course, as interesting as it is, could never really be copied as it is (and by that they were by no means just talking about roads or the close juxtaposition of the holes to other non-golf things).
And in that overall reality lies one of the true golf architecture enigmas of all time!!! Here's the golf course that's supposedly the well-spring of all golf architecture and the prototype of golf architecture and even some of the greatest minds in architecture are admitting there's so much about it that no one would ever dare try to repeat or truly copy! Many of those men who admired it so much said TOC basically broke ever rule in the book! What book?
This is an extraordinary thing to ponder. Did even some of the best of them back then understand that the handwriting was already on the wall somehow?
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...madness...redflags....liability, my head is spinning....
I think I need to retire to the darkness of my closet with a sixpack to meditate! [or is it medicate ?]
but...before I do, the hole in question is a short par three that plays 125yds from the white, 160yds from the back.
the green is set on a slight diagonal and pinched between a bunker and a low boundary wall that is OB.....it is 3ft from the wall to the green and then maybe 22' to the blacktop edge of a dead end county road that has maybe eight houses.
Aside from the close proximity to the road, the entire side of the green is only 3' from OB....does anyone know of one closer ?
cheers ;)
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The course I used to work At in St.Louis had a road that crossed the middle of the fairway. right at about 100 Yards. it was added after the hole had been there. it Is at tapawingo hole #5 on the woodlands. you can not get a drive to the road unless you kill it or hit the path. hole plays 440 and the drive is up hill considerably. the roads connets a new subdivision built on the course. it is a fairly new design. 1994
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The 17th green at Hoylake 'used' to be immediately adjacent to a local road. It was 'less than' 8 steps from the green. It was pretty intimidating with right pin placement and a road (& cars, pavement) so close. The OB fence (chain link affair) was much closer.
I understand the 17th green was moved in improving the course for 2006 Open.
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Here are a few pics of what Paul is talking about on the 7th at The Patriot. The road is basicly not even visible from the tee, and given that as he said there are probably only 8 houses on that dead end road, not much traffic can be expected I am sure.
Here is the view from the tee of the short par 3 7th hole...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v487/Turboe/Patriot/2004-07-02_7236w.jpg)
As you can see the road is mostly hidden from the tee although you know it is there as it also runs along (although not as close) to the tee area.
Here is a view from behind the 7th that I posted on a previous thread several months ago...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v487/Turboe/Patriot/2004-07-02_7234Large.jpg)
Below is a different view from behind the green giving you a little better view of how close the wall ruins are to the edge of the green.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v487/Turboe/Patriot/2004-07-02_7229w.jpg)
I think it a great little hole. Very fun, and the wall adds some intrigue not seen much on modern courses. I am glad that in this era of hypersensitivity of liability concerns that a hole like this can still be made. God knows you couldnt do this in CA or someone would probably just drive back and forth on this public road trolling for a lawsuit (and would probably win it as well)!
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Paul:
That is a very cool looking little hole--I love it. I'd hope to have a shot on it where my backswing was so restricted I could turn around and try to bounce the ball off the wall at the flag! If I had to jump out of the way of the ricocheting ball, so much the better. How many times in golf do you get the opportunity to actually plan to have to take evasive action from your own golf ball? That's one of the most sophisticated strategies imaginable. ;)
Actually, the hell with a restricted backswing. If I missed the green left I think I'd take out about a 4 iron and fire it across the green and try to ricohet it at the flag anyway!
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....Tom....by jove I think [or begining to think] you've got it !!!
Design [and strategy] is all about options, without which you are dead.
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"Design [and strategy] is all about options, without which you are dead."
Paul:
If I get too aggressive with some of my options on your wall hole I just may end up dead! ;)
But I'll tell you one thing--if I ever do get to that hole I'm definitely going to try a wide variety of wall bank shot! And if you start to snicker I'll just pretend you're the flag and I guarantee you eventually I'll either nail your ass with the golf ball or at least I'll have you hopping and skipping all over the lot!
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Tom....if we ever get to that hole , there will be a bottle of fine merlot and one glass sitting on the wall.....it will be the reward of sudden death to the victor :-*
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...it's interesting in a way while I'm looking at the hole, to realize that in 70+ years , when the bunker lip accretes and everything ages, that some might think this is a classic old school example of wherever we happen to be now....it really is a very good hole.
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"....it really is a very good hole."
Paul:
It looks like it. It's sort of hard for me to tell on those three photos but what I think I see and really like about the hole isn't just the wall and the way the green is and is angled but the way it appears both work together with that bunker to create good risk/reward strategies. Maybe I'm wrong since I can't tell that well from the photos but it looks like the easy front pin (in the photo) that isn't guarded by the bunker is really guarded by the relatively small distance differential to the wall on that right side---while the distance differential to the wall over the left bunker to the rear or left of the green is much greater as it logically should be. In other words, it looks like the angle of the wall balances everything else about the hole really welll
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Tom ...you are right, push it long and 5 yds to the right , you are OB...enough to make one think while on the tee...the angle of the wall dictates all...and BTW, caps are cool..I feel empowered ;)
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Maybe I can even get some additional pictures in the next couple days (albiet dormant grass) that shows this hole from some diffferent angles/locations (provided I can get a good picture from ground level, with the lighting etc.).
If so, what direction would you want to see Tom....
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"If so, what direction would you want to see Tom.... "
Daryle:
I think if you stood about fifty yard short of the green and somewhat over to it's right I could see just perfect how that wall angles from front to back off the orientation of the entire green. Thanks very much for even asking and offering!
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They still exist, just not on the big dollar layouts. I can think of one that was built maybe five years ago in eastern Iowa. Can't remember the course's real name, its nickname is "The Badlands" and everyone calls it that. Its a scruffy little low budget 18 holer in the middle of nowhere (since most you coastal types would think anything in Iowa is already in the middle of nowhere you gotta understand just how far into bumfuckland it must be for a native Iowan to refer to as being in the middle of nowhere!)
The last 5-6 miles to get there require driving on gravel roads, and one of the gravel roads is quite uncomfortably tight against the entire length of the par 5 first hole. OK, it isn't a well travelled road, but probably that road that abuts Maidstone's 7th isn't either. I don't know how they got away with it liability-wise. If I had to guess I'd say they probably don't have insurance against it and would just bankrupt the place if a lawsuit every resulted. It isn't hard against the green (there's maybe 20 yards to the right IIRC) but there's essentially only a drainage ditch between the right edge of the narrow fairway and the road itself, and there's plenty of reason not to want to go left off the tee if you intend to hit it far enough to have a chance at reaching it in two.
Despite how bad I make it sound, the course does have some redeeming features, like quirk up the wazoo and plenty of interesting land. But you better be real damn accurate, and on some holes you have a 25 yard wide landing area for your tee shot or approach with OB or impenetrable forest on both sides, so it'll never make any "best of" lists. I wonder if Evan Fleisher has visited it, since its not much further from him than from me?
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Similar to The Patriot which Dunkin' White Boy Turboe ;D
showed earlier, Mike Strantz' sometimes-maligned Tot Hill
Farm has a road featuring very closely with 3 greens there.
At #9, this skyline and also false-front green has the road on the back left very close:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Tot%20Hill%20Farm/tothillfarm9.jpg)
#17 is the best example. Here, the road is just steps away
on the right. The green narrows to a point in the back, and
the pin back there (not shown) is treacherous to go after, as
the wall and road are tight right, and there is a steep fall-off
to the green back left ("false back left?"). Obviously a big
false-front as well....:
(http://www.tothillfarm.com/'02HolePics/thf8g1.jpg)
The same road for the third time is hard left (fence) to the false-right green at #18:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Tot%20Hill%20Farm/tothillfarm18.jpg)
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Tom,
Here are the promised pictures of the 7th at Patriot from today. Paul was nice enough to let me tag along with him for a little while. He was onsite to review and tweak some bunkering on the course.
As I feared the light condition at that time of day were not optimal for the front right view you asked about.
Here is a view from 30-40 yds out in front of the green.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v487/Turboe/GCA%20General/2005-01-21_0995s.jpg)
Up near the green Paul is pacing a distance.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v487/Turboe/GCA%20General/2005-01-21_0997s.jpg)
Front right of the green from as high above as I could get.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v487/Turboe/GCA%20General/2005-01-21_1058s.jpg)
This view from behind the green looking back and down shows a pretty good feel for the green orientation in relation to the wall, the bunker, and the line of play from the tee in the distance.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v487/Turboe/GCA%20General/2005-01-21_1068s.jpg)
We talked about the interesting shots that could manifest themselves via the wall so close to the back edge of the green. Well after hitting two balls from the tee this is where my shot finished, this is not staged. I hit a wedge that landed about 2" on the back edge of the green one hopped to this location.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v487/Turboe/GCA%20General/2005-01-21_1062s.jpg)
Tom, in honor of your earlier comments, I played my shot as a richochet off the wall. I must admit it took me proably 5 tries before I got the results that I wanted. Landing the ball on the green just right to catch the slope and feed it over to the hole. Again not staged, I promise.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v487/Turboe/GCA%20General/2005-01-21_1070s.jpg)
A fun little hole, and we havent even talked about the "birdbath" depression in the back left of the green as you look at it from the tee. This small area of the green is probably 10ft in diameter and is a few inches worth of depression in the green. Another neat little unique feature of this hole.
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...thanks Daryl...but man, hitting a couple of wedges from the back at 155yds is strong! ;)
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You know something Paul, I think I must have overlooked the back tee. I think I must have been in front of there. Unfortunately I can tell from my pictures looking back from the green. Do you have to walk backwards from the cartpath to get to the back tees?
I guess maybe I will have to pay closer attention next time.