Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Michael Wharton-Palmer on December 20, 2004, 05:23:55 PM
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(http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/34267%3B2323232%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D324%3A%3E3%3B7%3E283%3EWSNRCG%3D32327%3A94%3A%3A73http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/34267%3B2323232%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D324%3A%3E3%3B7%3E283%3EWSNRCG%3D32327%http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/34267%3B2323232%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D324%3A%3E3%3B7%3E283%3EWSNRCG%3D32327%3A94%3A%3A739nu0mrj3A94http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/34267%3B2323232%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D324%3A%3E3%3B7%3E283%3EWSNRCG%3D32327%3A94%3A%3A739nu0mrj%3A%3A739nu0mrj9nu0mrj)
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Michael Wharton-Palmer,
You can post more than one picture per thread. In fact, that would be preferable than knocking all other topics off the front page during the testing stage.
Joe
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I am trying to figure out how to do that!!!!
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I swear I am going to get this right.....
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all right, this has officially gotten out of hand. MWP, I would suggest deleting most if not all of the threads you have on the board dedicated to learning how to post (which you have learned, despite your disbelief - I see the pictures).
Its just a terrible waste of bandwidth - but so are nearly 90% of Pat Mucci's posts, and that hasn't deterred him one iota. ;D
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You can also find out whether you're doing it right before posting by clicking on "Preview" just to the right of the "Post" button. If you got the photo coding right, the picture will show up. If not, you can keep working on it until the picture shows up, then click Post.
And if this is redundant information, I'll delete it.
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(http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/34267%3B9523232%7Ffp58%3Dot%3E233%3B%3D4%3A8%3D374%3DXROQDF%3E23236%3B859%3A75%3Aot1lsi)
(http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/34267%3B9523232%7Ffp63%3Dot%3E233%3B%3D4%3A8%3D374%3DXROQDF%%3A58%33E23236%3B859Aot1lsi)
(http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/34267%3B9523232%7Ffp58%3Dot%3E233%3B%3D4%3A8%3D374%3DXROQDF%3E23236%3B859%)
(http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/34267%3B9523232%7Ffp64%3Dot%3E233%3B%3D4%3A8%3D374%3DXROQDF%
3E23236%3B859%3B73%3Aot1lsi)
(http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/34267%3B9523232%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D324%3A%3E3%3B7%3E283%3EWSNRCG%3D32327%3A94%3A%3B%3B35nu0mrj)
(http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/34267%3B9523232%7Ffp58%3Dot%3E233%3B%3D4%3A8%3D374%3DXROQDF%3E23236%3B859%3B67%3Aot1lsi)
(http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/34267%3B9523232%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D324%3A%3E3%3B7%3E283%3EWSNRCG%3D32327%3A94%3A%3A%3A2%3Bnu0mrj)
(http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/34267%3B9523232%7Ffp58%3Dot%3E233%3B%3D4%3A8%3D374%3DXROQDF%3E23236%3B859%3B858ot1lsi)
(http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/34267%3B9523232%7Ffp58%3Dot%3E233%3B%3D4%3A8%3D374%3DXROQDF%3E23236%3B859%3A%3A84ot1lsi)
(http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/34267%3B9523232%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D324%3A%3E3%3B7%3E283%3EWSNRCG%3D32327%3A94%3A%3A%3B5%3Bnu0mrj)
(http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/34267%3B9523232%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D324%3A%3E3%3B7%3E283%3EWSNRCG%3D32327%3A94%3A%3B625nu0mrj)
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(http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/34267%3B9523232%7Ffp58%3Dot%3E233%3B%3D4%3A8%3D374%3DXROQDF%3E23236%3B859%3B67%3Aot1lsi)
I hate to say it, but this might be the saddest view in golf.....right after you've finished the round. Did anyone not have the immediate urge to want to walk across the parking lot and tee it up again?
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Brian:
Yes, 'tis a sad moment indeed!
Always felt a mild depression and slight sickness after holing out on 18, walking up the incline and looking back at the perfection which is Cypress Point.
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.....because one never knows if it was your last time. :'(
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Looking at that picture of #18 from the fairway --- I'm still trying to figure out how to play this hole, which I've only done from the right side tree line -- is it possible to hit a five iron and then say a 7 wood over those trees? The line is so tight to actually have a shot at the green. I was impressed by my partner John Bernhardt's second shot. He was in the fairway, and then played a low rolling shot which actually found the right froghair, from which he made a 4! Unbelievable score! 8) And we won the match 1 up!
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What exactly is that going on in Michael's last picture? It appears to be a tiny fairway, a green at the far end with a bunker left, and trees entirely engulfing the fairway. What's the story?
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Andy - that is the oft-criticized #18 at Cypress, seen from behind and to the far left of the green (as the golfer plays it). It is very tight, but not nearly as claustrophobic as this pic makes it look. It's a dog leg right with trees right in the way off the tee, then lining both sides and overhanging and blocking all but perfectly placed tee shots.
To that end, that's how you play the hole... some sort of fairway wood (I did it with 3wood) over the tree, trying to find the right center of the fairway - too far right and you're blocked at the corner, too far left and you're blocked by the enormous tree by the green. Then if you succeed, it's a 140 yard or so shot very uphill, needing to be drawn so as to miss the left tree. Two tough shots....
Bill - 5iron off the tee leaves you WAY too far back.
TH
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Andy,
#18 at CPC is tough to get your eyes around. I'll probably get fried for admitting this, but I did some research on it before playing and a couple of references helped:
http://www.caddybytes.com/new_page_20.htm (although they used to have a better picture from the tee, which showed the Cypress that needs to be carried to find the middle of the fairway)
Scott B's AOTD of CPC, http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=4363 (#18 comes up from the bottom left corner).
Carlyle Rood got some really good pictures when we were out there, http://www.golfarch.com/Cypress/cp18.asp. Basically the tee-shot needs to carry over that Cypress in the middle of that picture. A shot of about 180-200yds will put you in the fairway, and then you play up the hill to that severely sloped green.
Some people hate the hole, but I liked it alot. Sort of a final twist to an already vexing and challenging course.
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BG - put me down in the PRO-Cypress 18 camp as well. And those who don't research great courses before playing them are just way too jaded. So fry me as well. Hell I was more of a Winged Foot-ophile than Sweeney before I played there awhile back. ;D
TH
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Where's Mike Cirba? I've never seen so many ameobas and spilt milk in a single thread.
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Interesting.
So Michael's picture, then, is not actually the line of play in any way unless you've hit your approach long and left.
Looks like a very claustrophobic hole. Is it a fun or good hole (sorry, to me a fun hole is a good hole, but I realize that is not always the case with some of the smarter folks here)?
I am only familiar with the course from pics, and it always has such an open, free-flowing look. Does 18 fit the rest of the course, or is it a total change in feel?
Also, on 17, there appears to be a spit of fairway right of the trees--does anyone actually try to drive it there, and if so, waht club is used to get there? Is there a big advantage for doing so (as it looks awfully tough to get there)?
Brian, thanks for the links.
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Re 18, yep, you are looking from way long and way left. I can't imagine anyone ever having that shot. And yes the hole is very tight, but it's not out of character with the rest of the course... several other holes are tree-lined.
Re 17, heck yeah there is a spit of land to the right of the trees and a very viable tee shot is to try and stay back and hug the coastline so you can hit your 2nd to the right of the trees and on the green. I have done that and it's an odd shot where the shorter shot is the more bold and daring... because really the only way to do it is to put it in a very precise area 200 yards off the tee... too far and you get blocked by the trees. Trying to hit a driver WAY down into the area past the trees I suppose can be done, but that would mean a huge carry of 280+. I'd guess some have done it, but it's surely not a typical play. ;D
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WHOOPS!
I now see the pic you are talking about... that is actually taken from the left of the fairway, very short off the tee, and is kind of an optical illusion... you don't actually have to hit through a tree tunnel! The trees on the left are about 150 yards away from the ones on the right.
TH
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Re 17, heck yeah there is a spit of land to the right of the trees and a very viable tee shot is to try and stay back and hug the coastline so you can hit your 2nd to the right of the trees and on the green. I have done that and it's an odd shot where the shorter shot is the more bold and daring... because really the only way to do it is to put it in a very precise area 200 yards off the tee... too far and you get blocked by the trees. Trying to hit a driver WAY down into the area past the trees I suppose can be done, but that would mean a huge carry of 280+. I'd guess some have done it, but it's surely not a typical play.
Tom
Wow, that looks kinda nervy--there doesn't seem to be much room at all to place your tee shot right. How far do you need to hit driver to get past the trees left and have an open shot?
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I now see the pic you are talking about... that is actually taken from the left of the fairway, very short off the tee, and is kind of an optical illusion... you don't actually have to hit through a tree tunnel! The trees on the left are about 150 yards away from the ones on the right.
Aha! That makes sense--I had heard 18 was pretty tight, but that pic made it seem darn near unplayable, at least by me.
Still looks pretty darn exacting :o
(but man, those cypress trees are very cool looking)
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Re 17, to get it up past the trees and left enough of them so that you have a clear approch requires a pretty long tee shot... I'd say over 290 at least.
For most people, the play is left enough and back enough so that they hit the second OVER the trees comfortably. But that means a long high shot in the 170 range....
There really is no easy choice, not it you want to reach the green in two. But of course there is a quite easy way to reach it in three... thus the Mackenzie genius.
Of course the real genius though is that a shorter tee shot aimed to the right is the most daring doable play... are there any other holes where an iron off the tee aimed to a tight place is the more daring, aggressive play than hitting a driver?
TH
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Glad to see that the pictures are stimulating interest.
I deliberately took the one of 18 from that angle to show how tight the hole really can be.
I am very pro #18, all I had heard prior to playing, was what a weak finishing hole it was..well it was the only bogey I made all day...and that was from the left side of the fairway with a clear shot to the green.
What a place though, pictures can never do it's beauty the true justice it deserves, here are a few more
(http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/3426873523232%7Ffp58%3Dot%3E233%3B%3D4%3A8%3D374%3DXROQDF%3E23236%3B859%3B358ot1lsi)
This is the tee shot on # 8.
Standing on this tee you just want to crush it over the corner, but the smart shot is to the left side of the fairway, leaving the view of the next picture.
Obviously an elevated green and uphill second shot that plays at least an extra club, to a multi tiered green..great short hole with a punishing green and surrounding areas.
(http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/3426873523232%7Ffp63%3Dot%3E233%3B%3D4%3A8%3D374%3DXROQDF%3E23236%3B859%3A59%3Aot1lsi)
This sis a view from #9 tee looking back at #13 green in the foreground and #14 fairway in the background.
Probably the most specatacular bunkering on the golf course is around # 13 green, although the criticsm of the starkness is well taken...is it possible to critisise this course?
(http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/3426873523232%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D324%3A%3E3%3B7%3E283%3EWSNRCG%3D32327%3A94%3A%3A92%3Bnu0mrj)
This shows the second shot to number14,another beautifully designed hole.
(http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/3426873523232%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D324%3A%3E3%3B7%3E283%3EWSNRCG%3D32327%3A94%3A%3A93%3Anu0mrj)
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Where's Mike Cirba? I've never seen so many ameobas and spilt milk in a single thread.
Paul;
I agree.
I think the bunker work that was done in recent years, although applauded by others here as truly Mackenzian, is too sharp, too clean, too jagged, too frilly, and too white. Of course, finding fault after playing Cypress is like criticizing Terri Hatcher for the color of her toenails after a roll in the hay. However, to be fair and consistent, I feel that I should provide my honest opinion since Paul is calling me on it. ;)
Mackenzie's original bunkers were very lacey, as well, but because the surrounding dunes terrain were much less vegetated (more whitish and sandy), they blended beautifully and lent the artistic touch of man's hand to the incredible landscape. However, now that much of those areas are now native grasses, while other areas are covered with rich, dark green turf, the contrast can be a bit jarrring. There is no real "transition" areas between the bunkers and their surrounds any longer, which is the reason they look so stark.
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Glad to see that the pictures are stimulating interest.
Michael, for the unwashed out here admiring your pics, could you give a brief description of what we are seeing? While the course is certainly fine just to look at, even Hatcher-esque (they are real and spectacular ;)), some context would be helpful (i.e. what hole, what we are seeing etc).
Thanks!
:)
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Where's Mike Cirba? I've never seen so many ameobas and spilt milk in a single thread.
Paul;
I agree.
I think the bunker work that was done in recent years, although applauded by others here as truly Mackenzian, is too sharp, too clean, too jagged, too frilly, and too white. Of course, finding fault after playing Cypress is like criticizing Terri Hatcher for the color of her toenails after a roll in the hay. However, to be fair and consistent, I feel that I should provide my honest opinion since Paul is calling me on it. ;)
Mackenzie's original bunkers were very lacey, as well, but because the surrounding dunes terrain were much less vegetated (more whitish and sandy), they blended beautifully and lent the artistic touch of man's hand to the incredible landscape. However, now that much of those areas are now native grasses, while other areas are covered with rich, dark green turf, the contrast can be a bit jarrring. There is no real "transition" areas between the bunkers and their surrounds any longer, which is the reason they look so stark.
Paul Turner;
What is your opinion of the bunkers?
Anyone else? Tommy Nac?
Talk about a "Hot Seat"! :P ;D
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Since you asked for "anyone else"...
my opinion is you had it correct in the Teri Hatcher analogy. The only word that comes to mind is "irrelevant."
;D
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Since you asked for "anyone else"...
my opinion is you had it correct in the Teri Hatcher analogy. The only word that comes to mind is "irrelevant."
;D
Tom;
If the bunkers at Cypress Point are "irrelevant", why are they there? Or, is any criticism of them what you term irrelevant? ;) ;D
I think they have to be relevant because any man-made features on that glorious setting need to be really carefully considered, lest they detract from the heavenly views.
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The criticism of the LOOK of them is what I find irrelevant. That's what I thought you and Paul are doing. To me, they look just fine.. and they PLAY fantastically well (and are obviously very relevant in that respect).. The look would only be relevant if it's outright horrible, and these certainly aren't.
TH
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The criticism of the LOOK of them is what I find irrelevant. That's what I thought you and Paul are doing. To me, they look just fine.. and they PLAY fantastically well (and are obviously very relevant in that respect).. The look would only be relevant if it's outright horrible, and these certainly aren't.
TH
Tom;
No, they aren't horrible by any stretch. A solid B on a course where they were an A+ at birth.
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Mike: I can live with that. But to me it's akin to Teri Hatcher's toes, as you said - relevant only to those with foot fetishes, or on this case, bunker-look-fetish.
;D
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Just for Dave...
(http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/342687%3A723232%7Ffp58%3Dot%3E233%3B%3D4%3A8%3D374%3DXROQDF%3E23236%3B859%3C8%3C6ot1lsi)
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Sweet pic!
But it also brings up a question I had...
Michael, is that you?
If so, I see a wood in your hand... looks like fairway wood...
I've never hit less than driver on that hole, although one time I should have (rare helping wind).
What does a really strong player hit on 16? The carry is "only" 200, but it is slightly uphill (green is slightly raised from tee) and the air is damn near always very dead and the wind is damn near always hurting...
TH
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Definitely a lay-up hole 8)
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Actually Tom, it is my 18* taylor made rescue club, which I hit to about 15 feet but never came close to making the putt.
My knees were shaking, as I could not believe I was lucky enough to be playing on this blessed turf..I just got lucky with the resulting tee shot.
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Tom,
It's relatively easy to fly a 18* FliHi into the cove to the left of the green ;). I believe it's reachable with a 3iron on a calm day.
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Michael - I was gonna say rescue club, couldn't tell for sure. And for a strong player I can buy that that's the shot. I can also see the relatively strong-hitting Mr. Gracely hitting 3iron on a calm day. But when does one ever get a calm day there?
I've always maintained the hole plays a lot longer than the 200 carry, 220 to the middle - due to dead air, etc. Concur?
BTW, I know all about knees shaking. Mine sure were too - all four times I was blessed to play that hole. The day my knees don't shake on that hole is the day I've become way too jaded.
;D
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Where's Mike Cirba? I've never seen so many ameobas and spilt milk in a single thread.
Paul;
I agree.
I think the bunker work that was done in recent years, although applauded by others here as truly Mackenzian, is too sharp, too clean, too jagged, too frilly, and too white. Of course, finding fault after playing Cypress is like criticizing Terri Hatcher for the color of her toenails after a roll in the hay. However, to be fair and consistent, I feel that I should provide my honest opinion since Paul is calling me on it. ;)
Mackenzie's original bunkers were very lacey, as well, but because the surrounding dunes terrain were much less vegetated (more whitish and sandy), they blended beautifully and lent the artistic touch of man's hand to the incredible landscape. However, now that much of those areas are now native grasses, while other areas are covered with rich, dark green turf, the contrast can be a bit jarrring. There is no real "transition" areas between the bunkers and their surrounds any longer, which is the reason they look so stark.
Paul Turner;
What is your opinion of the bunkers?
Anyone else? Tommy Nac?
Talk about a "Hot Seat"! :P ;D
Mike
You're right. Although Cypress was always a bit on the prissy side ;) Long reign Pine Valley!
And what's going on with the 13th, eh? Looks like a work of topiary: I see peacocks! Did someone use a set square?
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Mike: I can live with that. But to me it's akin to Teri Hatcher's toes, as you said - relevant only to those with foot fetishes, or on this case, bunker-look-fetish.
;D
Tom;
I can live with that. Guilty as charged!
As of yesterday, this is now the background on my computer.
(http://home.earthlink.net/~neilregan/Sand%20Hills%20040925%20055%204th%20bunker%20Scott%20Burroughs%201220%20x%20913%20JPEG%20LEVEL%203.jpg)
I wouldn't agree with your basic contention that the look of them is irrelevant, however. If anything, given the incredible course and environment, their look is more important at Cypress Point than almost any other course I can think of.
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Mike - fix that pic - need to see it!
As for the look being irrelevant, well as I say, to each his own. PLAY is so much more important to me than look that it's as I say. If they moved them around, I'd quibble. As for the look, well... the day they color them in purple is the day I complain.
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Tom
I do indeed agree, that sea air takes the ball nowhere, even on a still day , as was the case when I was blessed to be there.
It is the noises about the place that help make CPC so special, whether it be the wildlife in and out of the water or the sound of your heart beating away as you see one great hole after another.
If you cannot appreciate the architectural wonder of CPC, you cannot call yourself a golfer.
Dr Mac's flow to the course is so impressive, the ideal blend of short/long par holes..just great
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Mike - fix that pic - need to see it!
As for the look being irrelevant, well as I say, to each his own. PLAY is so much more important to me than look that it's as I say. If they moved them around, I'd quibble. As for the look, well... the day they color them in purple is the day I complain.
Tom;
Why should I fix that pic if the look doesn't matter?!?!? ;) :D
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You have to understand these are new bunkers, let them be exposed to the winds for a couple of winters and then judge them.
It is a little to easy to sit at our computers and forget that mother nature takes time to put her stamp on any changes that are made...I am convinced the new bunkering will look awesome 2 or3 years from now
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Mike - fix that pic - need to see it!
Huck;
It's fixed.
This could be the bunker against which all others are judged. ;D
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Mike - fix that pic - need to see it!
Huck;
It's fixed.
This could be the bunker against which all others are judged. ;D
AHA!
OH yes, very cool.
That would be on the extreme POSITIVE end of cool look. Good call. Pity that fool down in there.
;)
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Is there a mercy rule for that bunker? Does the 5 minute lost-ball rule apply?
For anybody that's played both Sand Hills and Tobacco Road, is this bunker deeper or larger than the one fronting #11 at TR?
...and does anybody play at Sand Hills other than Naffer??
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Is there a mercy rule for that bunker? Does the 5 minute lost-ball rule apply?
For anybody that's played both Sand Hills and Tobacco Road, is this bunker deeper or larger than the one fronting #11 at TR?
...and does anybody play at Sand Hills other than Naffer??
Brian;
I haven't been to TR yet, but I've been in the bunker on the 4th at Sand Hills.
From the bottom, you get the distinct hopeless feeling of trying to clear a two-story house with a sliver of green on top of the hill beyond, falling off the ledge on the other side. A nice place for a game of ping-pong.
My half-skulled recovery zinged out of there on the first attempt, but only to find my ball about 35 yards down the hill on the other side, with the green perched 20 feet above me.
What a great game! ;D
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From the bottom, you get the distinct hopeless feeling of trying to clear a two-story house with a sliver of green on top of the hill beyond, falling off the ledge on the other side. A nice place for a game of ping-pong.
Hmmm, than Brian is right--it is kinda like the 11th at Tobacco Road; though without the ledge on the other side, rather a bunker that I thought I did pretty well finding.
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Re: Cirba's Screen Saver
Believe it or not a playing partner of mine HOLED OUT from the bottom of that bunker. Another respectable gentleman gave him the line, the ball flew over his head, two little bounces and in! I was standing behind the flag where I could not be seen by the player (actually, if you're at the bottom you see nothing but a mountain of sand) and after the ball went in there was a delayed reaction as we looked at one another incredulously. Then we screamed.
To this day the guy who hit the shot doesn't believe he holed it and believes I stuck it in the hole.
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Brian:
Yes, 'tis a sad moment indeed!
Always felt a mild depression and slight sickness after holing out on 18, walking up the incline and looking back at the perfection which is Cypress Point.
Gene,
I don't get it, since there's always this delightful chap waiting behind the 18th green that treats you to burgers at the half-way house of a nearby club afterwards. Look closely and you'll spot his silhouette in one of the photographs. Hmmm. He must have had the day off when you were there. Mabe a conflicting appointment at the local John Deere dealership.
Mike