Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Steve_Roths on December 07, 2004, 03:31:21 PM
-
Let's say for the sake of argument that Ballyneal, Prarie Club, or Dismal make a dent into awesomeness that is Sand Hills GC. What would Sand Hill need to do to keep itself the clear out leader?
The reason I ask is as I read all the marketing brochures on the three above clubs they mention how 1st class accomodations, par 3 course, short game facilities. It makes me wonder if Sand Hills will add some things to the club down the road.
-
Steve:
My take is that Sand Hills is perfection as it is right now - it's a golf club, pure and simple, with the world's best course... with accomodations that are absolutely all that one needs, and food and drink that are the same. A burger on Ben's Porch beats a five course meal at French Laundry, by my reckoning... and if I have to explain why, well... I won't be able to as it can't be explained outside of experiencing it.
If they add to the club or subtract from it, then it is no longer perfection. It can't BE improved. Those who would think so just don't get the place, and belong elsewhere.
Now these new clubs with fancier accomodations, better practice facilities, more holes might surpass Sand Hills in the eyes of some... but if that is the case, I sure as hell hope Sand Hills takes no notice. By my reckoning it would be a horrible shame to mess with one of the very few instances of perfection in this world.
TH
-
Huck,
Would Sand Hills be a touch worse if someone was building a big ole clubhouse within view of the course much like is currently happening to NGLA....
-
If I were Mr.Youngscap, I'm simply tip my hat to the other clubs for realizing that his original idea was as good as it was.
Considering I've never heard anyone ever mention a bad word about SHGC, other than "it's a long drive from everywhere", why the need to keep up with the Joneses?
...and thank goodness that CPC never felt the need to emulate Pebble Beach, Spyglass or Spanish Bay.
-
JK:
You know the answer to that. Hell yes it would. But that's because a big part of the coolness at Sand Hills is the vastness and remoteness and incredible 50-mile views.
That's not really an issue at NGLA. They have a rather enormous, imposing clubhouse as it is. Another one nearby won't be a positive, I'd say, but it surely won't be a deal-breaking negative like it would be at Sand Hills.
TH
-
JK:
You know the answer to that. Hell yes it would. But that's because a big part of the coolness at Sand Hills is the vastness and remoteness and incredible 50-mile views.
That's not really an issue at NGLA. They have a rather enormous, imposing clubhouse as it is. Another one nearby won't be a positive, I'd say, but it surely won't be a deal-breaking negative like it would be at Sand Hills.
TH
Deal breaking negative....that's strong..
and another thing....how in the hell can you call the clubhouse at NGLA enormous and imposing.....Your comments once again prove that seeing is not always believing..
-
JK:
Well, seeing it in person it sure as hell looked enormous and imposing to me. Go find it in a picture... it's a pretty huge building. And note I give no negative connotation to that at all - in fact by my take it works perfectly, and suits the ego and needs of its builder and intended members...
But I guess enormous and imposing are in the eyes of the beholder. It looked that way to me... but if others don't see it that way, well then they look at things differently than I do.
And such a thing at Sand Hills sure as hell would be a deal-breaking negative. Oh, the course would still be the greatest on the planet, as nothing about it would have changed... But the overall perfection of the club would suffer a mortal blow.
TH
-
I think the clubhouse is enourmous and imposing as well but I live in Norway where the clubhouses are relatively small, so it is all relative.
The only thing that I would like changed or tweaked at Sand Hills would be that the grass be less green...again this is subjective. I felt during the weekend that I was there that the fairways were green...but it was eary in the season and maybe it is not always like that.
Brian
-
Brian:
I'd agree that the course surely isn't meant to be emerald green and is meant to play firm and fast. I was there early season a few years ago and it wasn't too green and was very firm and fast... thus my view of the place as perfection. But I can absolutely understand your point and I agree with you.
TH
-
Re-institue the un-accompanied guest policy they used to have ;)
I can't remotely come up w/ a real answer to make improve on the place. Architecturely there is none. A second course or a par 3 course would only diminish what is there. I think all of the other developments (36 holes, skeetshooting, par 3 courses) are all to the fact that they can't compete apples to apples on the core 18 holes.
Hell, the burger on Ben's porch is the best in the world!!
-
Knock down Ben's porch.
-
Knock down Ben's porch.
;D ;D
I love it. There surely is room for all viewpoints in this big world of golf.
TH
-
(http://www.nauticom.net/users/tshirts/sebonack%20routing.jpg)
Huck...take a look at the NGLA clubhouse and tell me it is emormous or imposing...
-
JK - OK, your pic works now. Kinda tough to judge the enormity or imposition of a structure from thousands of feet up! But hey, even from way up, that gray blob looks pretty huge to me. In any case, just as a sanity check I did a google search and found one picture from ground level, and it confirmed my memory... the structure is indeed both enormous and imposing, sitting as it does exposed on one of the high points.
But again, if others don't see it that way, that is just fine. It's obvious you don't. I do. No hassles mon.
TH
-
There are private homes in the area that are more sq footage than the National clubhouse. I happen to enjoy a southside in the national lockeroom while they call me Mr. Hearst. :)
-
There are private homes in the area that are more sq footage than the National clubhouse. I happen to enjoy a southside in the national lockeroom while they call me Mr. Hearst. :)
Hammy, I'd agree with all of that, not that I have ever had the privilege of entrance inside the structure. Once again, in calling it enormous and imposing I am making absolutely no negative connotations. My point is simply that it works there and fits right in, and so another one nearby wouldn't be that big of a deal. At Sand Hills it would be horrible.
TH
-
Huck,
I can't seem to find that picture on Google...my memory is of a clubhouse charming and quaint...could you please post your pic...
-
JK:
I can't get it to work. I'm not very proficient at pictures. Just do a google search on images typing in "national golf links of america" and you'll find it.
Man if that's charming and quaint than I'm Tiger Woods.
But as I say, we all have our own standards. You must live in a 45 room, 50,000 square foot mansion if you think this place is charming and quaint.
;D
-
(http://www.longislandgolfnews.com/photos/nationalgolflinksclubhouse.jpg)
This pic doesn't do much for the course or for the clubhouse, but there it is...
-
A little better pic. Not sure who took it last year:
(http://images.mysticcolorlab.com/3425688%3B23232%7Ffp3%3B%3Dot%3E232%3B%3D8%3A9%3D%3A%3B7%3DXROQDF%3E23236%3A%3B89%3B%3A47ot1lsi)
-
Kevin -- That's indisputable proof that you can't judge a golf course clubhouse -- much less a golf course -- by one picture.
The one I found looked like an old abandoned barn on the edge of a Wisconsin cow pasture. Yours looks like the Taj Mahal.
-
Is that pic quaint and charming or what....architecture has a little thing called scale....I've even owned a three sided ruler with one..the color, the roof sag....everything is anything but enormous and imposing....
Rick...Huck can't even judge it by standing next to it...
-
:) As far as Sand Hills goes, you cannot improve on perfection, which is what Sand Hill GC is. Besides, the cheese burgers on Ben's Porch are better than the finest Filet!!!
It's just all there, simplicity and perfection defined ;D
-
;D Case in point, I got lost getting from the clubhouse to the course my first time at Sand Hills. Next thing you know, my cart is caught up on a hillock, across from the "range" which at the moment I convinced myself that it was the 1st Tee. Leave it to Tony ;D ;D ;D
-
In our current world how can anything be perfection if it is one cell tower away from a deal breaker....
-
Why would you need to improve Sand Hills?
If the membership is sold out, the members use the facility, the members bring guests, why does it matter if there is another club that has all the bells and whistles?
Let's go back a few years and use CPC as the target? Many a club has been built since CPC was built, almost all of them with better facilities and amenities and CPC has survived gloriously ...
-
When I played there in September 2003, everyone was using a cart while playing. That was a BIG surprise. I'd never heard anything about carts at Sand Hills. It would be better without carts on the course, IMO.
-
All this speculation or off season talk about what Sand Hills could or should do vis-a-vis what the other new developments in the sand hills are up to is mental masturbation. I don't know the man personally, but I can't imagine from Mr Youngscapp's reputation that he is staying up nights thinking too much about what he ought to do or not do.
For that matter, I don't think the gentlemen from the PrairieClub or BallyNeal are fretting over what ammenities they "ought" to provide in order to lure members away from Sand Hills or the other courses either. I think all those gentlemen that are the driving forces behind the new up and comer clubs or D.Y., are comfortable in their own methods and ideas, and know the product they have or envision will, like water, seek its' own level.
There is something out there for everyone. The pure world class golf, burgers on a porch in the middle of endless prairie, and a lovely cabin and lodge nightly experience like SH will naturally draw those that like just that. The bird hunters and fishermen, multi sport users will find Sutton Bay and the great golf there more to their liking. Other pure golf addicts, looking for the nearer escape from Denver, or the closer reach to that City may pick BallyNeal. Prairie club will have a slightly different look from those mentioned. So what?
Some times I wonder just how much you guys make of the burgers on Ben's porch. Oh they're good and all. They are even better due to the company and setting. But, anyone who has cooked their own over a griddle at the shore of a great and remote trout stream, or after an exhilerating hike in one of our great national forests or parks, or after a vigorous days hunting in the highlands, can't possible say that Ben's porch burgers are some how "better". It's all about experience and company doing what you love.
Why not just be happy with they way SH is, the way the others will probably turn out, and if you are so lucky to get to experience them, enjoy without all the hand wringing about if one is better than the other. ::)
-
JK:
I stand by my words. Good lord man if that is quaint in your world, well... now I REALLY need to get to Indiana so maybe I can stay in the footman's quarters on your palatial estate. The thing is massive, the architecture is foreboding, it screams out everything but "quaint" to me. But that's how it's supposed to be... In fact I'd guess CB Mac is rolling in his grave at you calling this quaint! But like I've said many times now, people can look at this differently. I just know that looking at the clubhouse I felt like I was heading to court or something. Jeez man you are looking at the BACK of it in that 2nd picture.. and look at the scale, which shows up better in the first one... the thing is massive and there remains absolutely nothing "quaint" about it. You're off your rocker on this one, my friend. But I guess it is all relative... Yes, next to the Supreme Court building the NCGA clubhouse is rather quaint. ;)
As for Sand Hills, there are radio towers 50 miles off in the distance, that look like they're a mile away. That's how VAST the place is... how the scale is... it's difficult to explain. In any case perfection does remain a tenuous thing... you of all people should know that. But being tenuous does not disqualify it from being perfect. It is.
BG - no, I surely did not fence-climb at NGLA (though if I lived there when younger hell yes I would have... talk about easy... there ARE no fences... and #10 tee is miles from the clubhouse....) No, the day I was there we just played golf and entry into the clubhouse wasn't part of the deal. We were rather in a hurry anyway to get next door to play the lesser neighbor in the pm.
Dick: you hit the nail on the head re the burgers on Ben's Porch. Hell they could be made of horse-meat mixed with doghshit and I'd likely call them great... It ain't about the food, it's all about the setting and the company. And to that end, the burgers and beers and scotch and everything else I enjoyed there all add up to the some of the finest dining experiences I have ever had. Because you see Dick, I was doing what I love, more perfectly than just about any time prior or since. Others can achieve this through hunting, fishing, hell decorating the house (in the case of my wife). For me? Burgers and beer with that view and those people I was with... I guess the only improvement is I push this up a few years, make my son and daughter single-digit handicaps so we can have fair battles, and share it with them. But that day will likely never come, so perfection was achieved for me there on that porch, with those burgers.
;D