Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Brent Hutto on December 06, 2004, 09:52:55 AM
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Are there any good courses with a short Par 4 as the opening hole? Say anything from 250-300 yards from the regular men's or member's tees.
As with a Par 3 or short Par 5 opener I guess it would be considered a cause of first-tee congestion. On the other hand, if you wait and tee off after the group ahead of you leaves the green you ought to have clear sailing from that point on (I always hate the Par 4 opener followed by a tough Par 3 second hole for instance).
I think it's an interesting concept as long as the hole is a genuine risk-reward proposition and not just an easy par type of thing. Different people have different frames of mind on the first tee shot of the day. Some people like to play aggressively from the get-go and try to score well while they're fresh and prepared while others prefer to play very conservatively for a couple of holes until they get into a good rhythm for day. The short, risk-reward Par 4 makes this a more explicit decision than most.
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Fenway and Philadelphia Country Club (not originally routed that way by Flynn) come to mind, although the latter is about 330.
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Mike, Mike, Mike. You disappoint me. Wouldn't the poster course for this be THE NATIONAL GOLF LINKS OF AMERICA?
You lose one point for this. But that's ok, you're up about 335 points in my book as it is.
;D
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Tom, Tom, Tom...
Good point! ;D
You're not the only one who tells me I'm slipping.
Although, it's only fair to point out that MacDonald didn't originally route that one as the first hole, either.
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Myopia Hunt Club has a unique uphill short par 4 opener. I think it's around 285 on the card but is quite a bit uphill and you can not see the green from the tee.
Here is a picture from behind the green:
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/00000055.jpg)
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OK, I can live with that. You get your point back. ;D
It's funny though the second I read the title of Brent's topic, I thought NGLA. And I suck at these things.
In fact I can't think of any other good short par 4 openers, at least not where driving the green is a viable option... Prestwick #1 is pretty short, but man anyone who takes a crack at that green is insane... it is rather tight. And I just looked at its's 346. So never mind there....
TH
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How about North Berwick?
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Bald Peak Colony Club
310 straight downhill, but somewhat tight and hazardous.
The kid we played with, who was mashing all day including pin-high at the downhill 330 yard 13th, opted for the seven iron, as did I.
I may go for it next year if I have not been blackballed.
I think that a drivable green on the first shot of the day is a great way to start the round and a good way to pace the groups - i.e. wait until the green is clear.
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royal dornoch has a great first hole - rich is the expert, but it is eminently driveable by longer hitters. maybe 310 yards? i think the GCA dornoch expert reckons it the best birdie opportunity on the course, but par is always a good score on that hole. it is a great example of risk-reward - as often as not when you play it safe you still make a mess, and then curse your lack of courage.
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Cherry Hills. Didn't Palmer drive the green during his 1960 charge?
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The closest to the 300 yds I came up with were
Royal Dornoch 331yds from the blue. 300 from the yellow.
Brora 297yds White 280 yellow. Dogleg right. Would be tough to drive with a hill guarding the dogleg and a gully in front of the green. However I only had a PW in for my second so the green may be an option for the big hitter.
Crail 321yds. Maybe the most likely. Severely downhill. Bunker front right makes the right half of the l shaped green tough but the left half would be accessible.
Best I can do..
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Pacific Dunes popped into my mind.
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Portland Country Club - 290 down the hill - beautiful vistas of Casco Bay.
Bunkers in front make this a real challenge for those who would drive the green.
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Brent,
Both of the courses that will host the GCA Ryder Cup next year have opening holes in that range. Deal's might be a little longer than 300 yards; the green is fronted by a small stream - a setup that reminds me of the 1st at TOC. Littlestone's is similar - wide, flat fairway, large green fronted by a pair of bunkers that replaced a drainage stream some years ago.
I think they are terrific holes for starters. Littlestone's rock-hard fairway is tilted slightly left to right and when the prevailing wind (also l to r, favoring) is up, the tee shot has to be controlled precisely.
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7zuyh/lview1.JPG)
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Michael's point of how a short par 4 opener spaces the groups out is a good one. Murphy Creek GC in Denver has a short/drivable 320yd+ opening hole, and waiting for the group to clear the green gives a nice cushion between groups to start out the round.
Cheers,
Brad Swanson
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Of ones I've played, mentioned already:
N. Berwick really isn't driveable - there's a huge hill in the way.
Pacific Dunes is driveable only with cannon. ;)
Dornoch comes closer.. I can see driving that from the yellow tees, particularly down-wind... and it is worth trying...
TH
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The opener at Panmure (near Carnoustie, it was Hogan's practice ground before the '53 Open) is only 290 yards and quite reachable off the tee. Not that I reached it, mind you, but in theory it's there for the taking.
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How bout Westhampton's little teaser of a par 4 starter that always gets me thinking, what with OB right and uneven lies left. Also Garden City's 1st hole is a ticklish 300 yarder.
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What about #1 at Troon? Since it usually plays with the wind, and is of course fast and firm, it is still doable at 360 or so yards. Though getting past all the bunkers around the green is surely blind luck!
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Doug, when I played Troon, our tee was 348... and it was very firm and fast, and it was down wind... but I sure didn't look at that as remotely close to being driveable. That being said, I guess the Matt Wards/Dave Schmidts of the world might look at it that way. I just don't think many people look at that hole and think about driving the green as a viable option. Really it's just hit something out there and miss the bunkers, as far down as you choose to go... and there's a couple on the left at about 240 off the this tee, a couple on the right at about 260... blasting over I guess might be a thought, but not for me that's for sure!
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Anybody got a modern example other than Pacific Dunes?
A short opener, while an interesting set of variety, is quirk and quirk is essentially (and unfortunately) dead in modern golf :(
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Well sure Sean, some of these holes CAN be driven, by Tiger Woods-types downwind, etc. One certainly could get a massive hit over the hill on #1 North Berwick, for example, it one was that strong AND that foolish enough to take that early risk. ;)
I'm thinking what are more valuable here are holes where it can be done not as a once in a life-time thing, but as a strong shot by a strong player as part of a very viable choice. There haven't been many listed yet where that is the case... It might be that there just plain aren't that many around. Then the question becomes why not? Because it would seem to work well for spacing for the stronger players, and for the lesser players it then becomes the gentle start that seems so desirable...
TH
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Blue Heron Pines-West Course No. 1 is drive-able
Crooked Stick No. 1 is very short, as are most of Dye's opening holes from the 1960s-1970s.
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Sean:
Haven't been to Carne but I am right with you on Brora anyway. And man I would love to witness #1 NB driven... oh I know it can be done, as you say... but boy that must be fun to see. ;D
It's interesting to me how few of these there are, particularly on the modern side... because they do make such sense...
Strange.
TH
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I'd think the problem at North Berwick's 1st would not be the hill so much as the fact the green is sort of hanging out on that cliff. Definitely need a nice fade off the tee!
How in the heck was TOC's first driven? And why? I have a hard time believing there's anyone in the world who is good enough to plan exactly where to carry their drive such that it clears the burn on the hop! Sounds like blind luck to me. Even without the burn, I'd never hit driver on TOC's first. I'd be too worried about the lifelong ban that might result from an opening push taking out the 85 year old mother of a Link Trust member on the Himalayas! ;)
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Without having the scorecard infront of me, the first at Merion is one of that courses shorter holes, but clearly beyond the 300 yard limit.
Agreat short..ish starting hole none the less.
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Doug: I am right with you re NB#1. It would take a huge long fade over the right side of the hill and then a very lucky bounce... that's why it would be so cool to see done!
As for TOC #1, well... get it down wind, get a lucky hop, I can see that. Shots bounce over the burn all the time. But that would indeed also be one huge hit combined with a LOT of luck and your question WHY is the most important one. My guess is when it happens, it does my mistake. Shoot even weakstick me hit 3wood off that tee, just to make sure and not get too close to the swilcan.
TH
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Tom,
I'm not sure it is desireable to have a foursome of strong players all have to wait for the green to clear on a reasonable "go for it" situation. If you take for example TOC's first or Troon's first, a strong and reasonably accurate player might take driver more in an effort to get close for a little flip wedge and thus would have to wait for the group ahead to get on the green. That will provide pretty good spacing, and both holes are still gentle enough to be a good start for the higher 'caps as you suggest.
Having a hole that's driveable by too high a percentage of golfers as the starting hole is going to force 15 minute gaps between starting times. That's great, unless the course sells tee times at ten minute intervals ::) If they are smart enough to do 15 minute intervals, you don't need a driveable hole to enforce the issue architecturally.
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Tom,
I'm not sure it is desireable to have a foursome of strong players all have to wait for the green to clear on a reasonable "go for it" situation. If you take for example TOC's first or Troon's first, a strong and reasonably accurate player might take driver more in an effort to get close for a little flip wedge and thus would have to wait for the group ahead to get on the green. That will provide pretty good spacing, and both holes are still gentle enough to be a good start for the higher 'caps as you suggest.
Having a hole that's driveable by too high a percentage of golfers as the starting hole is going to force 15 minute gaps between starting times. That's great, unless the course sells tee times at ten minute intervals ::) If they are smart enough to do 15 minute intervals, you don't need a driveable hole to enforce the issue architecturally.
Doug: I guess you're right. Maybe the bad does outweigh the good here. At first thought, it seemed to me that creation of that gap would be a good thing.. but who is gonna be altruistic enough to do 15 minute intervals? Not may courses around here, that's for sure.
TH
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Prestwick Golf Club - Railway ...
(http://www.prestwickgc.co.uk/course/1sttee.jpg)
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With speed of play in mind, the first at Merion is a model in routing.
Not driveable, yet not too troublesome in terms of hazards, it allows for a nice fast start.
The clever part, is that it allows the group in front plenty of time to cross the street and tee off on the second, a par five.
It always apperas to work out that you are never waiting on the second, and as we know par fives are usually the site of waiting.
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Mike - pictures do speak many words. Does ANYONE ever try to drive that green?
TH
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Mike,
I'd be really interested to know if anyone has ever driven the green on #1 at Prestwick. And if so, could they repeat the feat after a couple of Kummels?
And that picture must have been taken from the rooftop, because I don't ever recall being able to see the green surface from the tee-box.
man I love that place....
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So what's the best play if you try to drive the green on Prestwick's first with a pin on the left? I'm thinking banking it off the wall to get around the bunker... ;D
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Two by Donald Ross:
Rogell in Detroit (320y), at about 250 of the tee there is a
deep valley where your ball can disappear.The first at Brae Burn, a fine layout is 310yd to a lovely greensite.The second
340yds up a steep hill is even better !
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Tom,
I'll bet if anyone tries driving that green, that unless they succeed, their caddie will quit and have a pint while waiting for someone more reasonable to loop for. Otherwise he'll spend his entire day deep in the tall stuff looking for his player's ball!
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A few others that come to mind:
Prestwick
Portsalon
Western Gailes
Woods Hole
Ladybank
Painswick
Dornoch (Struie)
Lossiemouth (Old)
Eden
My guess is that all of these are driveable today by the longer hitters.
Vis a vis Brora, that 1st is certainly drivable, as even I have done it. You can't miss right, however, and the risk/reward doesn't really compute unless you have a breeze blowing off your left shoulder (so you can hit a high fade on the wind).
Dornoch is also reachable these days from the back (330). However, due to the big bunker at 280 or so mid/left fairway, you need to hit a cut (or carry it 290+). These days in major competitions they wait for the green to clear (unless you have a big wind in your face), which is fine and dandy, as 9-10 minutes (the tee time intervals) is about right to finish that hole, and by slowing things down on the 1st, you mitigate the usual bottleneck on the difficult 170-yard 2nd.
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Doug: I'd say you have Prestwick #1 summed up PERFECTLY.
;D
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So what's the best play if you try to drive the green on Prestwick's first with a pin on the left? I'm thinking banking it off the wall to get around the bunker... ;D
On another thread, it morph'd into a discussion of table top hockey games, and to go for the green at Prestwick's first you might need to have experienced the game called "carroms" ...
http://www.billiboard.com/carrom-catalogue/buy-carrom-board.html
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Dornoch is also reachable these days from the back (330). However, due to the big bunker at 280 or so mid/left fairway, you need to hit a cut (or carry it 290+). These days in major competitions they wait for the green to clear (unless you have a big wind in your face), which is fine and dandy, as 9-10 minutes (the tee time intervals) is about right to finish that hole, and by slowing things down on the 1st, you mitigate the usual bottleneck on the difficult 170-yard 2nd.
So maybe there's a good point of routing. If you're going to have a tough one-shot second hole that causes backups, maybe a 300-yard opener serves as a way for the player to amuse himself instead of just standing around getting stiff and annoyed on the second tee.
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An additional modern course is Desert Highlands. This is the site of the first Skins Game in the mid 80s, Nicklaus design. The first is short depending on the tees you are playing. Dramatic drop in evelation and view of the Valley.
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Sean,
Did the ball bounce over the burn.
1st Hole..... Royal Sydney.
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Riverdale Dunes in Brighton, CO (Dye/Doak) has a fun, driveable par 4 starting hole. The green is buried in a small hollow, which you can't see from the tee. But, as a lefty, slide the hips and kill a fade to the front of the green!
Fun opening hole on a GRAND public tract!
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Commonwealth in Australia still has a fairly short opener; several friends who've played down there a bunch say it was a better hole when it was even shorter and driveable. Tom Doak makes a similar point in the Confidential Guide. Restored, I would nominate it as the standard for very short opening Par 4s.
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#1 at Teeth of the Dog. I got it to 20 yards (prevailing downwind) last week - made 5.
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Jay,
The old first at Commonwealth was around 260 yards and a first class hole. The redesigned hole is around 330 yards and probable just driveable for the super long hitters.
Other Australian courses with driveable first holes are Victoria and Royal Sydney.
The best short par 4 opener in Australia is Royal Melbourne East at 303m (330yds).
The current configuration of the composite course at Royal Melbourne has a driveable opening hole (3rd on the West course) - well, driveable for the likes of Els and co.
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Blackstone National, a Rees Jones course, has a reachable opening hole. It measures 320 from the white tees, 330 from the blues, and 360 from the tips, but that is downhill and around a dogleg. Cutting the corner takes at least 30–40 yards off the shot. The image below does not accurately portray the elevation change down to the hole, nor does it show how sharply the fairway bends to the left. (By the way, I don't know where they are getting the 390 that is on the photo—no way the tees go back that far.) A tee shot directly over the left bunkers will hit the downslope and kick onto the green. Of course, a 4-iron off the tee leaves a little sand wedge and an easy way to get into the round. With a par 5 up next, I am always reluctant to destroy my round on the very first hole. How's that for a positive frame of mind?
(http://blackstonegc.memfirstweb.net/Images/Library/hole1areal.jpg)
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Sean,
Your friend FLEW the burn? Holy crap, that's what, 325 yards? I guess I know one guy who could do it, but how in the world did your friend hold the green? Next someone will tell me about some guy driving the Road Hole :)
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Baxter had a chance to play the newly opened first at Beaumont C. C. this week. 296 yds. If the rain ever stops, I'll get there too....
(http://www.fingerdyespann.com/beaumont_2004/1st_after.jpg)
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The Brae Burn Country Club in Newton, MA 1919 US Open, 1927 US Amaeur) starts with three consecutive short par four holes
The fist is 310 over a stream directly in front of the green. #2 is an uphill, 296 yard beauty that can be played with any club from 7-iron to driver off the tee. The green is a well bunkered two teired number that can cause havoc. # 3 is about 340, slighly uphill to an elevated green that is about 20 yards from the crest of the hill which deceives the player nearly every time. It is a green that is extremely contoured and difficult to chip to from the front.
If you walk off the third green even par, you have probably birdied one of the holes.
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The opener at The Minikahda Club (Ross in MPLS) is a nice short par 4, good fronting bunkers.
These short openers are something I like about golf in the British Isles, including the aforementioned Prestwick, Troon, Crail Balcomie.
Isn't the first at Wild Horse shortish too, or did it just play that way when I was there?
Best,
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Prestwick's opener is not reachable, it's 370 yards. Great opening hole though.
Detroit Golf Club (North Course) (Ross) has a wonderful 325 yard opener.
Is it possible to hit the green at Pacific Dunes with the trouble in front?
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Ardsley CC in Westchester NY first hole is about 290 overlooking the Hudson with about a 100 foot drop on the tee shot, which is usually a mid iron layup short of a pond which runs from 100 yards to the green. It is an often photographed hole, but I don't have the technical skill to find one or post it.
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michael wharton-palmer got the answer that first came to my mind- i think #1 at merion east is about 350-360. i love that hole
#1 at merion west is short too, think about 310. from what i remember it's drive-able, with a mound and top-shot bunkers guarding front left (it's been 10 years since i last played there, but that's my memory of the hole)
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Ardglass in Northern Ireland has a very short opener, but fun along the water with a steep climb to the greensite. I played in a junior ireland event here one year and my matchplay opponent drove the green, after I had punched my 3-iron off the tee to get things off to a smooth start! Needless to say, he went on to win the match and the whole event.
Friars Head is another short opener, and gives me the feel of hole #2 at PV without some of the length.
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Isn't the first at Wild Horse shortish too, or did it just play that way when I was there?
Best,
Wild Horse's opener qualifies for sure, although the only time I tried to drive it (and did so) was during the early fall one man scramble on my first tee-shot, with the esteemed Mr. Wright as my witness ;D ;).
Cheers,
Brad Swanson
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Point of reference on Wild Horse #1: yes it is shortish, and driveable... if your name is Brad Swanson, Dave Schmidt or Hank Kuehne.
The rest of us kinda need Hurricane Ivan behind us.
;D ;D ;D
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Point of reference on Wild Horse #1: yes it is shortish, and driveable... if your name is Brad Swanson, Dave Schmidt or Hank Kuehne.
The rest of us kinda need Hurricane Ivan behind us.
;D ;D ;D
Tom,
I don't buy your conclusion about me hitting the ball any longer than the average low/mid single digit player at all, if I can take my experience at the Cuscowilla outing as an example. Nearly everyone I played with there was right there with me or a few steps ahead. I saw some tee shots from the guys playing behind be that were out there as well (Ed G. for instance). I've come to accept that in this as well as many other things, I am merely average.
Now, #1 at WH is a fun one to go at with the driver as the contours leading up to and around the green are banked on the right to help a gentle draw find its way to the putting surface, and the firm conditions there help as well. A great start to a great course. :o
Cheers,
Brad
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Brad my friend and former partner:
Don't you dare ruin my delusions. I still think of you as prodigiously long off the tee, and my great hope is to somehow have you go toe to toe with Schmidt some day. So perhaps you have come back to average but I don't want to hear about it if so.
;D ;D ;D
In any case, I agree with you that #1 at WH is mega cool and the perfect start to that course. For me it meant getting my eyes opened as a wedge landed on the green and bouded 30 yards over... for others it surely can me driving the green, getting 100 yards worth of roll.
TH
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Holyhead in north Wales opens with a 277 yard par 4. Ian Scott-Taylor nominated it as his favorite hole by design in Paul Daley's new bool. Hidden green, fronting mound, small
Braid 4500 sqft green with diagonal ridge. OB left. Sorry I missed this on my great tour.
Machrihannish's 1st is 400+
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Point of reference on Wild Horse #1: yes it is shortish, and driveable... if your name is Brad Swanson, Dave Schmidt or Hank Kuehne.
The rest of us kinda need Hurricane Ivan behind us.
;D ;D ;D
Tom,
I don't buy your conclusion about me hitting the ball any longer than the average low/mid single digit player at all, if I can take my experience at the Cuscowilla outing as an example. Nearly everyone I played with there was right there with me or a few steps ahead. I saw some tee shots from the guys playing behind be that were out there as well (Ed G. for instance). I've come to accept that in this as well as many other things, I am merely average.
Now, #1 at WH is a fun one to go at with the driver as the contours leading up to and around the green are banked on the right to help a gentle draw find its way to the putting surface, and the firm conditions there help as well. A great start to a great course. :o
Cheers,
Brad
I think you are exaggerating a bit there, Brad! We both seemed to hit it pretty much the same distance the day we played together so I've got a pretty good basis for personal comparison, and while I'd laugh out loud if someone mentioned me in the same sentence as Hank Kuehne, I think it is safe to say you are longer than the average low/mid single digit handicap, though certainly not hugely so -- I got a friend who plays around scratch who can outdrive me by at least 40 yards, if you can picture that! Of course if your concept of an average 2 handicap is now some freshman you get paired up with on the Scarlet who is working hard in hopes of walking on the OSU squad, the meaning of "average" for you may be a bit off the mark! ;)
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Was the category supposed to be SHORT par-4 opening holes, or DRIVEABLE par-4 opening holes?
I'm a big fan of the former. I used to think Dan Jenkins was wrong to put the first at Merion (East) on his list of America's best 18 holes, because it's tough to hit two such precise shots right out of the box. But a short par-4 with a little leeway off the tee is a great start. The opener at Pacific Dunes doesn't have much leeway, so I would tend to favor the opening holes at Lost Dunes or The Rawls Course from my own courses. The first at Sebonack will be a shorty, too.
Some of the men's team at TTU think the first at The Rawls is driveable downwind. In general, though, I don't think you'll find many driveable par-4's being included as the openers on new courses. It is a speed of play issue, but aside from that, few architects or clients want the opening impression of their course to be "short" or "easy".
I was shocked to hear someone talking about the first at Riverdale Dunes being driveable; equipment [and altitude] must make a difference, because we never thought about that twenty years ago!