Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Andy Hughes on November 30, 2004, 02:52:10 PM
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If you were going to Pinehurst in the Spring, and there was a desire to keep the cost down and yet play fun courses, where would you play? Tobacco Road and Southern Pines/Elks are already known quantities.
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When are you coming down? How many guys? Weekdays or weekend?
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Andy:
If you're looking to play #2 best bring your credit card because the add-on fees through surcharges and the like is really a big time rip-off. It's sad to say because, as you know, I'm a big time fan of the place -- especially #2.
It's unfortunate but clearly within the bounds of business that as demand builds for #2 in the lead-up to the Open the fees that can be charged will escalate accordingly. This is the fate of most of the other courses within the Pinehurst County Club domain -- save for such ordinary layouts like #1 and #3.
Follow the advice of others and head to Tobacco Rod, The Pit and whatever else one can handle without taking out a second mortgage.
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Hey Brian, the same old same old trip. Early April probably, around 8-10 guys, Thurs-Sunday.
Matt, no worries. None of the Pinehurst Resort courses will be on the itinerary as they have gotten 'silly expensive' to me. (and they would barely be top-tier courses if they were in the Poconos ;D ;D)
We loved Tobacco Road last year. Or at least I did, and I am the trip planner so that is in.
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Andy:
Other reasonably priced and solid courses within half an hour of Raleigh-Durham Airport include Duke's course as well as Finley, which is UNC's course. I'm at the Governors Club, which is a better than average and not all that typical a Nicklaus course, and could help with arrangements here if you are interested.
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Be sure to take David up on The Governors Club...and play all 27. David graciously hosted me and a buddy two weeks ago.
We also played Tobacco Road. I highly recommend it!
You may also consider contacting The National. It is private but they generally accomodate limited outside play.
Other course to consider are Pinewild, Legacy, Talamore, Mid South (Formerly known as The Plantation, recently purchased by Bob Levy, the owner of Talamore). Davis Love's Anderson Creek is about 30 to 40 minutes away, but well worth the drive. I am not a fan of "The Pit" it is the pits!
Check out this website for more info:
http://www.sandhillsgolf.com/golf-course/default.htm
Be sure to stop at Dugan's in the Village for a Guiness and an affordable meal!
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Sean,
You won't be disappointed with Southern Pines CC but if you don't mind doubling the cost, Mid-Pines and Pine Needles are also fine courses with better maintenace. However, if you play Tobacco Road first, you may want to play it again. It can't be compared to anything else in the area. I played there last week and except for a couple of long, annoying hikes, I enjoyed every minute of it.
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Andy - We went down there this summer and played Legacy (a decent deal), Mid Pines, TR, Southern Pines and Raleigh CC for just over $200 total. The host at RCC was top notch!!
Let me know if you need help with lodging. My parents have a condo that would comfortably hold four people and we could probably get you a little break on the rent.
Cheers,
Tony
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Andy,
You might want to try Hyland Hills, a course rarely (if ever) mentioned on GCA. Their fees are the lowest in the area and the course has some very enjoyable qualities. Its a 30 year old Tom Jackson design - somewhat hillier than many area tracks and not all that difficult, but from the back tees I find the course to be fun. There are some indifferent holes (18 immediately comes to mind), but its tough to beat for the money and it is a course that makes you feel good about golf. They will let you walk which is a rarity amongst the middle-tier courses in Pinehurst.
http://www.hylandhillsgolfclub.com/
A couple of pics from their website:
The par 4 5th, sweeping downhill around the lake:
(http://www.hylandhillsgolfclub.com/images/large/Dsc00176.jpg)
The par 3 6th - the green is kidney shaped and falls off in the front. The view will be much nicer in the spring. ;)
(http://www.hylandhillsgolfclub.com/images/large/Dsc00177.jpg)
Pete
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You should definitely see either Governor's Club or Raleigh CC - both gentlemen are as good as you'll ever meet. And the courses will both stand out as highlights of the trip. ;)
I second Legacy as a nice mid-level priced course.
Your dates will most likely leave Pine Needles or Mid Pines out...they will be charging $150-175 for the spring season. However, it would be worth going around PN just to see the work done by Fought this past summer.
Some of the other mid-priced courses that you may or may not have heard about:
- Carolina: probably avoid, but some of the holes are interesting. The greens can get downright silly (12 immediately comes to mind) and there are quite a few blind shots that are tough on the first timer - that leads to a sloooow pace of play. (Palmer)
- Talamore: nothing special, but depending on your group they might enjoy it because its very straightforward (Rees).
- Beacon Ridge: very hilly with small greens and moderately tight fairways. Some in our group liked, others didn't - I didn't really care for it but there are some good holes.
- Foxfire: similar to Beacon Ridge but it usually is in better condition - not a bad addition
- Little River: Have not played it.
- Pinewild: They have 36 holes that are supposedly pretty good. Semi-private - I have not played it.
If I was choosing 5, considering a budget of $500 or so for fees it would be:
- Pine Needles or Mid Pines (play one of the classics at a steeper price)
- Tobacco Road
- Southern Pines
- Legacy
- Hyland Hills
Try to squeeze a day in the Raleigh/Durham area and play either Raleigh CC, or Governors Club/Finley. I would definitely get Finley in but I have a biased interest there. ;D
Have Fun!
Pete
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There is an old Ellis Maples course near Whispering Pines called Whispering Woods. I haven't played there in a number of years but remember it as a good course and a very reasonable greens fee.
There used to be a Donald Ross Package at Mid Pines and Pine Needles,it included lodging, three meals and all the golf you can play at a reasonable price. I don't know if they run it any more. Give them a call at 910-692-7111.
I viewed the newly reopened Pine Needles recently and can tell you it is all the golf course anyone can handle. Conditions are not back to their standard but a great venue.
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Another good Ellis Maples course in the area is Woodlake in nearby Vass. Woodlake has 2 courses, one by Maples and one by Palmer. I have only played the Maples course, and it is pretty good, and relatively inexpensive. Check out woodlakecc.com.
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You may also consider contacting The National. It is private but they generally accomodate limited outside play.
If I have the right course in mind (formerly Pinehurst National, right?), this is an early Nicklaus design - if you have a group of mid- to high-hcps, this course will beat them up.
It's also not cheap - I was lucky enough to get comped but I want to say the fee was $175 or so. It's a nice course, and it was in super condition when I was there, but I think you'd have more fun breaking your piggy bank for Mid-Pines or Pine Needles.
You can put me in with those that liked The Pit, certainly value-wise. There's one fun par 3 (over water) that's practically hidden from everything else. It's not too long - good for your entire group to have an informal closest to the pin contest.
Jason
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Raleigh CC might not be the best place to ask about next spring for a couple of reasons:
1) They are going to be doing some "renno-storation-vation" work starting sometime soon, and there is no telling how chopped up the course might be.
2) The guest and unaccompanied guest policy has become more stringent, so no unaccompanied guests anymore and no more than 7 guest (w/ member) at a time.
3) At least one member is going to be changing alot more diapers and reading text books than hitting a silly white ball in a hole a long way away.
And it's possible that some of the Sandhills courses will try and milk the "we're near the course that's hosting the 2005 US Open" and potentially raise rates (don't know, just a hunch), so you might want to look into packages now to see if they'll make any deals with you.
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I'd stay away from Woodlake - it's starting to really look beaten, at least that was my experience this past year. Legacy is always a good deal, perhaps the best in the Sandhills area. I agree with the mention of Hyland Hills - it's often overlooked and a bit short, but a great shotmaking course.
Lastly, if the final choice is Duke vs. Finley/UNC, I'd pick Duke every time. I've never understood why some rate Finley higher than Duke - neither does Ed Ibarguen!!!
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Sean,
SPCC is private but will permit outside play. That time of year might be heavily booked so make sure you call ahead. Same with Tobacco Road.
No one has mentioned CC at Whispering Pines which has 2 Ellis Maples courses. The club is also private but does accept outside play. I have played the River Course and enjoyed it more than the Maples course at Woodlake. The bunkering is clever - on some holes reminiscent of PH#2 - but somewhat nullified by tree encroachment.
Someone will have to explain to me the appeal of Legacy when so much else is available.
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According to Talamore's website you can go out with caddies again.
(http://www.talamore.com/photos/TAL_DD.jpg)
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Bill,
Have the expanded the Llama staff to beyond two? I've never seen more than that on the property (small pen, near the 14th? tee)
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Brian,
I really don't know. Their website says that they are now sending out llama caddies, www.talamore.com
I was last there about six or seven years ago and being a traditionalist I decided to take a cart. At that time they were not sending out the llamas.
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Someone will have to explain to me the appeal of Legacy when so much else is available.
I'm with you on that one. If Legacy were in my home town I might play it once in a while because it seems to be well maintained and has some nice scenery in spots. But there are probably 20+ courses within 30 miles of there that I'd rather play when I'm so lucky as to be in the Pinehurst area.
Last winter we played at Mid-Pines on a Friday and then 36 holes at Pine Needles on Saturday (on the short list of the most enjoyable days I've ever spent on a golf course). Then for some reason the group I was travelling with wanted to play Legacy on Sunday. We actually paid as much for 18 holes at Legacy as we had for 36 at Pine Needles (long story) and it was a long, boring slog.
It was actually sort of surreal. You play each hole on a fairway and green built on muck apparently dredged up from building the lakes. Then you have a 1/4-mile walk through absolutely classic Pinehurst pine forest on firm, sandy soil to get to the next low-lying, wet, overly green hole. I spent nine holes (waiting on every shot, BTW, even though we were the only walkers on the course) wishing I were back at Pine Needles before bailing and hitting the road early. What a waste.
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What is the name of the private Palmer course in the area and what do you think of it. I played in Florida with a member and he said they had a very small membership.
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What is the name of the private Palmer course in the area and what do you think of it. I played in Florida with a member and he said they had a very small membership.
Previously called Pinehurst Plantation, now called Mid South Club. Nothing terribly special, and nothing that you couldn't get across the street at Talamore (if you like that style).
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All,
I've been to P'hurst several times, a couple with my college golf team (with the fantastic $25 college rate per rd.), so I dont know the prices too well, but I've been to most of the courses in the area.
I like Legacy as different from many courses in the area, and it would be a good course for a group of high handicappers, as there are multiple birdie opportunities. As for Talamore, I thought most holes and green complexes seemed the same, and any place that needs llamas to attract players is compensating for something. I played Mid-South last March and thought that it had improved a bit since the change of ownership. It is a decent course with a few identity problems....some holes have sandy wastes, others lakes, and others the famous "Pinehurst-style" chipping areas. Woodlake-Maples was a course I originally disliked, but has grown on me. Maples weaved a good course that uses the natural slopes very skillfully, much like the Ross venues in the area.
It is tough to compare these to P. Needles, P'hurst resort, or Mid Pines as they are in a different world altogether.
I really don't think you can go too wrong in the area.
--Brad
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I'd stay away from Woodlake - it's starting to really look beaten, at least that was my experience this past year. Legacy is always a good deal, perhaps the best in the Sandhills area. I agree with the mention of Hyland Hills - it's often overlooked and a bit short, but a great shotmaking course.
Lastly, if the final choice is Duke vs. Finley/UNC, I'd pick Duke every time. I've never understood why some rate Finley higher than Duke - neither does Ed Ibarguen!!!
Mike,
Its really a matter of picking your favored style of course. Duke has a lot of similar holes - take 1&2 and 17&18 - nearly identical long 4s with uphill greens that can wear on the middle to high-handicapper. 5&6 are nearly identical as well. I think the better holes at Duke beat the better holes at Finley - take 11-13 at Duke. That said, the walkability, greens, conditioning, and playability of Finley cause many to prefer it over Duke. That, and the staff is much nicer. ;D
Pete
BTW, here is my hole-by-hole match play of the 2 courses. Keep in mind I have a slight bias.
1 Duke 1-up
2 A/S (Finley's short 4 has at least 3 distinct playing options off the tee & an interesting green).
3 A/S
4 Duke 1-up
5 A/S
6 Finley 1-up
7 A/S (but I think very highly of the 7th, the pin placement should dictate the drive but most don't play it that way)
8 A/S (both par 3s are the worst on each course IMO)
9 Finley 1-up (really strong 4 beats the goofy 4.5 at Duke)
10 Finley 1-up (most hate the 10th at Finley but I think its innovative, and 10 at Duke has nothing going for it)
11 A/S
12 Duke 1-up
13 Duke 2-up
14 Duke 1-up
15 A/S (Finley's is the best 4 on the course)
16 A/S (both really strong 4s)
17 Finley 1-up
18 Finley 2-up
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Pete,
Finley #18 does not beat any hole on the planet. It's TERRIBLE!!
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10 Finley 1-up (most hate the 10th at Finley but I think its innovative, and 10 at Duke has nothing going for it)
Yes, Pete, iron off the tee and wood approach on a par 4 is genius! The hole bites. ;D
Finley has some good holes, in fact, the course turned out better than I was expecting, but give me Duke anyday. Heck, the Duke coeds jogging around the periphery of the course give it the edge right there! :o
Get Carolina girls to jog around Finley, and I'm there!
Actually, my one time around the new Finley, we (J Doyle and I) played right in front of the UNC Women's golf team, and they have some hotties (the best player at the time was not). We (actually just me) asked them (the first group, a twosome) to join us, but they were qualifying for a match.
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Andy:
I was in the same boat as you earlier this year. I was looking for a nice golf vacation for not much $$$. I drove to Pinehurst with a foursome in Mid-March '04. My package was ~$325/golfer for 4 days/3 nights (Hampton Inn), and arrived on a Thursday and departed on a Sunday. My itinerary was as follows:
Thursday - Legacy
Friday - Tobacco Road (36 holes)
Saturday - Mid-South
Weather was in the upper 50's to low 60's.
Our first round was at Legacy where the conditions were sub-par for that time of the year, plus they had a 3 hour frost delay that morning (obviously, not their fault). My foursome thought we were in for a long 4 days after that round, until we arrived the following day at Tobacco Road...
TR was in outstanding shape. Fairways and greens were, well, "green" and very playable. We found the same great conditions the following day at Mid-South. The pro at Mid-South had commented that TR is "usually the first course in the area to come around after the winter, and we're [Mid-South] right there as well". Mid-South was a fun course, and treated us like we were members for the day (like TR). The other great part about Mid-South was that it receives very little play. We had no one in front of us or behind us for our Saturday, 9:00 am tee time!
Polling my foursome, three of us like Tobacco Road the best, while the other one preferred Mid-South. We all agreed to skip Legacy if we were there again in mid-March. Like others in this thread had mentioned, be sure and play TR more than once.
I would skip the resort courses, as they are not worth the $$$ that early in the season. When we were there in March, we went over to take a look at #2 and the conditions appeared to be equal, if not worse than the Legacy.
We booked our golf package through Tobacco Road Golf & Travel, which is affiliated with the course (www.tobaccoroadtravel.com). They were very helpful, and had answers to all of our questions (including course aeration schedules, etc.). I would highly recommend giving them a call.
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Pete,
Finley #18 does not beat any hole on the planet. It's TERRIBLE!!
Brian,
I'd be interested in why you think its soooo terrible. You have to think off the tee...your club selection should depend on the pin location. If the pin is in front, watch out. Miss short to a back left pin, you're dead. Hit driver and don't roll down the entire slope - really tough shot b/c of your slight L->R stance.
In all my rounds there it was the one hole I did not birdie.
Pete
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10 Finley 1-up (most hate the 10th at Finley but I think its innovative, and 10 at Duke has nothing going for it)
Yes, Pete, iron off the tee and wood approach on a par 4 is genius! The hole bites. ;D
Finley has some good holes, in fact, the course turned out better than I was expecting, but give me Duke anyday. Heck, the Duke coeds jogging around the periphery of the course give it the edge right there! :o
Get Carolina girls to jog around Finley, and I'm there!
Actually, my one time around the new Finley, we (J Doyle and I) played right in front of the UNC Women's golf team, and they have some hotties (the best player at the time was not). We (actually just me) asked them (the first group, a twosome) to join us, but they were qualifying for a match.
Scott,
Two things...one, how can we say the ball is going like crazy and we need to pull it back...and then say that forcing a long iron into the green is bad. And, by the way, you can hit driver, if you SHAPE it...or hit it low...the ground will help a fade. And, if you can hit an iron off the tee (220 to bunker), you don't need a wood in, b/c you'll have less than 200. So, there are options here...play it safe and have a long iron or wood into the green, like the old days...or try to hit a fade on the driver, and have a short iron in...honestly, how can that be soooo bad? Please tell me - what does Duke 10 have going for it? Nothing on the tee shot but a narrow fairway, mid to short iron to a moderately interesting green with no real trouble around it.
And yes, the trail at Duke does give it points...but come on...even Doherty said they have the ugliest cheerleaders in the ACC... ;D
The cross country trail at Finley goes by holes 14-17...
Pete
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Pete,
Finley #18 does not beat any hole on the planet. It's TERRIBLE!!
Brian,
I'd be interested in why you think its soooo terrible. You have to think off the tee...your club selection should depend on the pin location. If the pin is in front, watch out. Miss short to a back left pin, you're dead. Hit driver and don't roll down the entire slope - really tough shot b/c of your slight L->R stance.
In all my rounds there it was the one hole I did not birdie.
Pete
17 is a good hole, alot of fun. 18 is just a way to get from the 17th green to the parking lot over a flat piece of land with a bump for the green.
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Pete,
Finley #18 does not beat any hole on the planet. It's TERRIBLE!!
Brian,
I'd be interested in why you think its soooo terrible. You have to think off the tee...your club selection should depend on the pin location. If the pin is in front, watch out. Miss short to a back left pin, you're dead. Hit driver and don't roll down the entire slope - really tough shot b/c of your slight L->R stance.
In all my rounds there it was the one hole I did not birdie.
Pete
17 is a good hole, alot of fun. 18 is just a way to get from the 17th green to the parking lot over a flat piece of land with a bump for the green.
First off I will argue that the land is not flat there. If you hit your drive even with the fairway bunker, the ball is significantly below your feet. If you hit it past the bunker, you can't see the green; its blind and at least 20 feet above you, all you see are two bunkers. So how is that flat?
Second the green is quite intriguing...the front left is completely false, so if you hit it on line for a back pin, you will fall into the chipping area and require a really tough shot for recovery. Try getting it close to the front right pin, or back left, or putting to a front center pin...its not just a bump. And how do you get an easy approach if you just bang away at driver? Maybe you just played it half in the dark b/c you were practice putting on 17 so long. ;D
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8)
Celebrated 25th Annual Go Carolina outing last spring in Southern Pines.. played N-S-E-W around there
economics nixes: resort #'s, pine needles, mid-pines
nixes for boring - JN's Legacy
For low $, call some motels, condos, they all have golf packages and can set up tee times, talk with them to find out which courses are playing best and maintenance schedule, plugging, sanding etc.... considered play AM & PM at same course to get replay rates.. check map carefully to not get traffic blues from schedule
For Ross, we've always played Southern Pines CC (aka Elks Club) every year to pay homage.. has been in better and worse shape, but a definite play.. Ran's home course!
For Strantz, If coming from north, consider playing Tot Hill Farm.. definitely TobaccoRoad a favorite can you tell gca..
For Dan Maples play Little River or The Pit, for Ellis Maples go Woodlake's Maples Course
Love's Anderson Creek and Byrd's Bayonet at Puppy Creek are moderns good for perspective.. but getting there and back is from Southern pines is tiring
Concur with Hyland Hills, good warm up course.. hit one onto Rt1 too!
for Palmer, definitely play The Carolina, (next to airport) vs Palmer Course at Woodlake,, watch out for outings there at Woodlake..
Talamore & Longleaf right next to each other can be convenient.. sometimes cheap
I thought Dolly was gone!
What ever happend to the 27 at Foxfire and what ever happend to Deercroft???...
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Thanks all for the advice.
I have already played, and loved, Tobacco Road and Southern Pines/Elks.
Hyland Hills sounds like a very good first day course, and we are considering Pine Needles as the one budget-buster.
For those in the know, would you add Legacy or Talamore or Mid South or none of the above? From my experience, a Palmer course runs the risk of, like Chinese food, leaving me hungry right after I've eaten.
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For those in the know, would you add Legacy or Talamore or Mid South or none of the above?
Legacy - no
Mid South - no
Talamore - probably. enjoyable course, but seems to be getting more expensive. yes there are some goofy holes or shots, but generally enjoyable and usually in very good shape.
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If you like the early 90s version of Rees Jones courses then Talamore is the play.
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8)
Talamore condos are nice, even nicer is 2 minute commute to play... When Talamore came on the scene we used to call it tricked up.. many do or die shots required.. so there's some excitement there, but The Carolina is a better all around play..
THE LEGACY IS BORING GOLF VERY LITTLE TO BRING YOU BACK UNLESS YOU LIKE REALLY WIDE FAIRWAYS AND BIG FLAT GREENS..
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Andy,
Whispering Woods, mentioned earlier, is a very nice layout and affordable. It has some severe terrain and pitched/fast greens. Twenty five minutes south on RT. 1 will bring you to Richmond Pines. It's nine by Ross, nine by Gene Hamm and the two are nearly seamless. On one occasion two of us played 54 holes at RP and were back in Southern Pines for dinner.
I've never made a tee time, never had to wait and never had a slow round at either course.
Both were under $30.00 last time I was there.
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OK, Legacy has been cut from the team along with Mid South, never to return. Hyland Hills has been sent in to join TR, Southern Pines and the team's main off-season, big contract signing, Pine Needles. Does Whispering Woods round out the squad? Or Talamore--which would bring greatest joy to the the widest range of players? Coach is leaning towards Whispering Woods for his intangibles, though the lack of llamas is a plus as well..
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A course that gets almost no talk in the area that I remember thinking was pretty decent (this was 10 years ago) was Seven Lakes. I remember much of the routing, but little in details.