Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: wsmorrison on November 09, 2004, 08:22:37 AM
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The photo below was published in "Turf for Golf Courses" by Piper and Oakley in 1917. I'm not certain what golf course is pictured, though I have a radical idea. In any case, right ID or not, it has led some of us to reconsider a famous hole and how much of the fairway is a natural formation vs. man-made. Please let me know if this hole looks familiar to any of you.
(http://home.comcast.net/~wmorrison11/Unknown1.jpg)
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Wayne:
I won't give away yet what we first thought and the reasons why I, for one, thought it couldn't be what we first thought. The house (clubhouse?) in the distance, although a long way off looks remarkably similar to the rear of Piping Rock's clubhouse but this hole doesn't match that golf course nor apparenly does the land to the left of the clubhouse (from this angle). If that is a clubhouse in the distance it sure is a substantial one which should limit the choices of what course this is for such an early time.
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It is hole#3 at "The Golf Course at Tom Paul's House"
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Whatever that hole is my early bet is it was somewhere around the north shore of Long Island. Even that little shelter looks like some of the ones I remember at Piping Rock. The architectural features look Macdonald/Raynoresque to me too.
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Wayne
I wondered the same thing when I first saw that picture. It looks like Columbia to me.
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Tom,
Ignoring the ground movement and the house or possible clubhouse for a moment, don't you think the bunkers disqualify any thought that this might be a Macdonald or Raynor golf course?
It sure looks like there is some alpinization going on in the relative foreground directly below the big white house.
I'm going to go to the historical society to see if I can identify if there was an estate house that matches the big house in the photo and where I first thought this course might be.
Mike Malone,
If that's Tom Paul's house in the distance, that's my house with the pyramid roof on the right.
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Tom Paul,
I think that shelter looks like the shelters seen around the course I postulated. Granted the ground in the distance doesn't correspond. The historian of the course I thought it was said that shelter looks exactly like the shelters on the course during the era this photo was taken, so they were probably a common look.
Tom MacWood,
Columbia in Chevy Chase? I showed the photo to Craig Disher and it did not look like anything he's seen. He agreed very strongly with Tom Paul that this was not the course I thought it was.
After some discussion, I'll say what I thought and what my thoughts are on the fairway design.
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I think the big house in the background is the clubhouse at Columbia. If I'm not mistaken Piper And Oakley were based in the DC area and performed some experiments at Columbia. The hazards look very much like those I've seen in historical photos of Columbia (designed by the underrated HH Barker, later remodeled by his friend Travis).
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Interesting, Tom. I hope Craig takes a look at this and weighs in. You're right, Columbia was the site of much turf experimentation by Piper, Oakley, and Harban (I thought he did the original design at Columbia). Wilson and Flynn visited the site many times to inspect the work being done there. Flynn came in during the mid-1920s and redid the 1st and 2nd holes.
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Wayne:
I just don't know Columbia C.C. at all so I sure couldn't possibly identify that hole or that clubhouse (if it is the clubhouse). But if Tom MacWood knows that course I have a feeling he's identified this one.
Here's why I suspect that. Walter Harban apparently designed an early Columbia C.C. or helped Herbert Barker with it down there and as we can see by some of the mast-heads on our "agronomy letters" of the early Wilson/Piper Oakley et al turf grass experiments and literature that eventually morphed into the USGA Green section (and was proceeded by the book that photo is in), Walter Harbin from the Columbia C.C. in DC/Maryland was a central character and contributor to all those US Dept. of Agriculture turfgrass efforts from the very beginning!! It seems to have been Harban with Piper/Oakley/Wilsons et al who first encouraged formal turfgrass consulting in America. And seeing as that's Piper/Oakley's book the photo is in it stands to reason Harban gave them that photo---probably of his own course---Columbia C.C.
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redanman,
I think you may mean #4 at Merion. I'm surprised that Tom and Wayne did not slay you for thinking this looks like#5.
Initially I thought it looked like one of the few long par fours on Merion West.
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Based on the picture and the roll of the land I would guess Columbia in the absence of anything better.
(http://www.sportsnetwork.com/images/golf/course_reviews/columbia/18-lg.jpg)
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If Columbia's current clubhouse is the same orientation as it
was in the past (if this is CCC's clubhouse) and the course
routing hasn't changed significantly, then based on this
aerial, the only hole it could possibly be is the one at the top
right (#7?), with the bunkering changed:
(http://home.earthlink.net/~foodstat6/_uimages/293.jpg)
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Wayne:
If C&W is correct it seems like there were two Columbia C.C.s in Chevy Chase or two courses at Columbia C.C.. The listing under Walter Harban is an NLE. But that photo is from 1917 so it most likely wasn't NLE then. Also from C&W the Barker Columbia C.C. was built in 1910. Were there two Columbia C.Cs down there or just 36 holes, one by Barker and perhaps one by Harban? The exact history of Columbia C.C. has to be for the DC expert Craig Disher. The 1917 photo with that clubhouse in the distance and the clubhouse in the photo above have to be the same clubhouse.
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there's not that kind of roll to the land at # 7 Columbia, but I do think the clubhouse looks like it
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Mike Malone,
In 1916, the current 4th hole was the 5th hole. The routing progression on the front nine was different than it is today. The 1st, 2nd, 8th, and 9th are the same. The current 6th was the 3rd, the current 7th was the 4th, the current 4th was the 5th, the current 5th was the 6th, the current 3rd was the 7th.
I think BillV was referring to the foreground being the current 5th green and the fairway on the right, that of the current 4th.
Speaking of fairway on the right, notice the horse-drawn mower.
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david H. carrol said:
"there's not that kind of roll to the land at # 7 Columbia, but I do think the clubhouse looks like it."
David:
That's probably because the golf course at Columbia C.C. that was apparently built by Walter S. Harban is apparently an NLE. That photo though is from 1917.
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Mayday and redanman:
A couple of weeks ago we thought it may be the 4th at Merion East (with the 5th on the left) but the rest of the land in the photo doesn't match, and neither does the area where Merion's clubhouse was and is.
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Wayne:
It has to be the old NLE Harban Columbia C.C. but if someone can actually figure out which hole it was, I'd say that'd be quite a research feat!
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looking at the modern photo that Bill posted, it appears that there were additions and changes made to the clubhouse over time. While it looks like the Columbia clubhouse, I'm not convinced that it is. How far from spot the photograph I posted do you think that large white house is? I think it is pretty far. I talked to Craig by phone and he is preparing some materials for this. He thinks it may be a mile or so away. In that case, there is no way it is the 7th at the current Columbia. I thought I had Columbia CC history book, I can't find it as of now. Maybe there were 2 courses, Tom. That would be interesting. Clearly the Flynn revisions are for the course that is there today.
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Wayne,
I was wondering the same question as to distance. Based on the scale of the building from about 150 or so in the modern photo and the scale in the old photo I would guess a ratio of about 8 to 1 which would put it approximately 1200 yards or 2/3 of a mile. Also trying to guess at the angle that the picture would have to be taken from the lower left white space of Scott's posting. Was the NLE course located in that space?
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Tom,
I think you're on it. I was skeptical at first because the clubhouse just didn't look right. It still doesn't but based on this aerial, I think the photo is Columbia. The camera would have been positioned near a crossing road, about where the maintenance area is now. The fairway in the foreground is the 10th. The golfers are playing up the 11th. In this 1937 aerial, the shelter is in the same position as the photo relative to the bunkers.
I may be making too much of leap here, but the fact that the picture would have been taken near the maintenance area ties in with Piper's authorship of the book.
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7zuyh/piperphoto.JPG)
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Craig,
Your lower right angle is consitent with my guess of the left on Scott's (the two are inverted with one at the clubhouse on bottom and the other with clubhouse on top). Looking at the trees it would allow a fairly unobstructed view to the clubhouse.
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Great going, guys! This forum is the only way could we have come to a conclusive finding in so short a time. Thanks for the serious efforts of the participants and and thanks to Ran for making GCA.com possible!
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Leave it to Craig to bring out the great aerials from the past!
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Craig is amazing! Scott, you can imagine what a great help he is for the Flynn book. He constantly suprises us. He is soon to be recognized for his contributions in a national publication.
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TEP,
Columbia's original course was located in Petworth area of DC, near Georgia Ave. and Decatur St. Columbia leased the site from a syndicate headed by Marshall Brown, a local hotelier. This might have been the course designed by Harban. When the club moved to its Chevy Chase location, the Petworth property was leased to Town and Country Club, the predecessor of Woodmont CC. By the early 20s, the sale of the property to the Cafritz family for development convinced Woodmont to move and the site was leased in 1921 by the the club I now belong to - Argyle CC. Argyle stayed there for about 2 years (playing on only 9 holes, the other 9 were already being developed) before moving to Silver Spring, very near Ross's Indian Spring CC. In the mid-40s, Argyle moved farther out from the city, followed by Indian Spring about 10 years later.
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Craig:
I'm not sure I get that hole. Is that a fairway crossing perpendicularly across the very front of that photo? And if so where did those golfers come from in that photo? Wherever Harban's Columbia C.C design was, Harban was a so-called Columbia C.C. official and he was one of the initiators of the turfgrass consulting effort that book generated that morphed into the USGA Green Section in the 1920s. Harban seemed to be on the board from way back as we continuously see his name on the list of board members on all the old agronomy letters. It's pretty logical to assume that Harban provided Piper and Oakley with that photo. It was his club afterall. By the way, Harban was apparently a dentist to a couple of US Presidents according to his bio.
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Craig,
You forgot to mark those missile launchers
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TEPaul,
The fairway in the immediate foreground is the 10th which plays from right to left. The golfers are playing the 11th which runs from left to right. The mounds in the middle of the picture appear to be on the back of the 13th green. If I recall correctly, there are raised mounds there still. Directly behind the 13th is the shelter which is visible both on the photo and the aerial.
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Sorry to break the subject here, but quite an interesting thread.
Is that the green keeper mowing the fairway on a riding maching behind a horse??
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Craig:
I'm still not sure I understand the hole those golfers are on. Does the hole play from left to right across the photo? Are those golfers playing to the right of the photo? When I first saw it I thought they were playing to that green just over the hill sort of in line with the clubhouse. That's why Wayne and I first thought it may be Merion East's #4.
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TE
There are two holes in the picture. The golfers are on the green of the par-3 8th, the tee is up the hill toward the shelter. The fairway in the foreground is the par-4 ninth, that hole runs from left to right across the picture.
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Tom and TE,
I don't think that's right, Tom. I believe the golfers are walking up the 11th fairway; the 10th is in the foreground. There are 3 bunkers between the 10th and 11th fairways; all 3 are visible on the aerial and in the photo. There are also 2 bunkers on the left of the 11th which are also visible on both the aerial and the photo. Only the back of the 2nd bunker is visible in the photo. The 8th and 9th holes are actually behind and to the left of where the photo was taken.
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You're right.
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Tom,
You gave in too quickly ;)
I went back to the photos just to make sure I was on solid ground. The point's moot - but I'll post what I did anyway.
I marked several reference points in both the photo and the aerial. The lines drawn on the aerial show approximately where the photo was taken - very near the service road and maintenance area.
Note that the tree marked F is in both pictures. G is the 12th fairway near the green.
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7zuyh/Dscn0392.JPG)
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7zuyh/unkholeb.JPG)
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Craig
I am impressed, wow.
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Craig:
Take a close look at those golfers (and the mower) on that photo---they appear to be wandering all over the place. It looks to me like none of them know whether they're on the 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th or 12th hole but even though I'm not crystal clear what's going on with the course in the photo or aerial it does look like those golfers did get back to the clubhouse at some point between the photo in 1917 and that aerial in 1937. Your're a helluva researcher pal but I want you to tell me how many strokes in Rule 6-7 penalties those guys got if they were wandering around out there for close to 20 years trying to finish that round. I'd like the answer on my desk at 6am too--thank you!
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Craig I'm just totally impressed. :) :)
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It's 5:53 in the morning. I just took the dog out for a walk 'cause she was barking and my wife wouldn't get up. Though I did get to see a nice sliver of moon, Venus, and Jupiter. I cranked up GCA and saw Craig's analysis. The most impressive thing yet today!
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Wayne
What golf course did you think this was?
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Tom,
My first impression was that the players were on the 4th fairway at Merion East. The land in the background never looked quite right and Tom Paul pretty much convinced me that it could not be Merion. I thought the big white house in the distance might have been an estate on the far side of Haverford Road since I thought the distance was about a mile or so.
Some coincidences include tree lines, the shelter, the creek bed, and trees. I thought the fairway on the left might be the 2nd with Ardmore Avenue behind it. The foreground would've been behind and to the left (line of play) of the fifth green. Flynn's 1916 drawings of Merion East show similar bunkers (outline and location) as are seen in the photo. The bunker schemes and hole designs were changed dramatically from 1912 to 1924 and other more well known changes were made through 1934.
Now, for this hillside going down from right to left to have existed in 1916, there would have to have been some engineering of the fairway to create the shelves the bunkers on the left sit on today. If you stand out on the course, there are a lot of similarities between the photo and what's out there today. There are some inconsistancies as well and Tom Paul identified them right away.
Even though this hole has been identified as Columbia CC, I still think there may have been some significant earth moving to create the fairway bunkers on the left side of the current 4th at Merion East. The bunkers today including the very large one shaped like a rumpled sock are not original bunkers. The overall surrounding ground movement seems significantly different which may indicate some manufacturing. Bill Kittleman is going to meet me out there to take a look. Tom Paul is not so sure about the possibility of significant earth moving on the fairway (at least I think that is his take). I've stood out there several times for long stretches really studying the ground and still think it likely. I guess deep soil probes would be the only way to tell if there's been alteration and added dirt.
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TEP,
My guess is that the golfers were actually playing the 10th hole, realized it was the dentist, Dr. Harban, behind the camera, and are fleeing like rabbits.
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Craig,
Awesome analysis and great use of software.
Bill