Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: wsmorrison on October 31, 2004, 03:42:13 PM
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(http://home.comcast.net/~wmorrison11/bocasouth17.jpg)
Which hole does this remind you of? Would you characterize the bunkering as functional and not stylistic? In my opinion it is highly stylistic and very functional. This hole was built exactly as designed.
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Color by Disher.
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I was wondering about that... :)
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Wayne -
The obvious answer might be PV #7, but th hole also reminds me of a longer version of PV #13. This hole and the one you displayed yesterday also remind me of #8 on the Primrose Nine at TCC. Which makes me wonder if Flynn was at all formulaic in his designs. A lot is lost, however, without reference to elevation change.
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Wayne,
This is where I become confused regarding many classic golf details.
I see a two dimensional picture but where is the design. I see no construction details or elevations or contour cut/fill. No clearing plan, bunker depths, mounding heights or greens details. People have told me some of these guys did such detailed drawings but I just don't see it. Perhaps there was a specification and detail booklet attached or was this what they called plans? Don't take me wrong, it is a good picture but that is all I see. IMHO I don't see how one can build a golf course with such drawings.
Mike
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The only thing that strikes me as not functional would be the bunkers between tee and fairway, but as Mike Young alludes, it's tough to tell from a 2D aerial drawing what their purpose might be. They might penalize the golfer that already sucks.
Joe
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SPDB, Mike, and Joe:
This is not a construction drawing. This drawing was taken from the india ink on linen drawings used to make the original course guide. I recall Dan Wexler mentioning that he heard there was an original floating around somewhere, then a few days later we came across all the original drawings!
This course was built on essentially flat ground and Flynn used man made hazards including mounds, formal bunkers and sandy waste areas to create strategy and interest.
I'll post an example of detailed construction instructions so you will get a feel for how precise Flynn was. He designed on paper after spending time on site and usually after several iterations came up with the final plan. A lot of our drawings do not have the construction instructions. This doesn't mean he didn't use them, he did. In many cases we just don't have the set with the instructions--these were used by the construction crew and most likely discarded.
We do have some typewritten instructions that were added to the drawings at some point but only about 20% of the drawings we have have instructions. He used them extensively and always we just don't have them in many cases--in some cases we only have preliminary drawings and not final ones. He drew a lot, we simply don't have everything but we sure do have a very large number at our disposal.
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Joe,
This hole played into the prevailing winter wind. Remember, this was a resort course near the ocean. The winds were often pretty stiff. Not everyone playing it in the early 1930s was capable of hitting 150 yard carries into the wind. The front bunker complex would certainly weigh on some players' minds and present an interesting color and texture variety from the tee.
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Flynn did a Pine Valley #7 style hole at Cherry Hills as well. We have some good photos of this hole taken shortly before the 1938 U.S. Open. The bunkering looks great but I'm not sure I'd call it wild or artistic. But that doesn't mean anything negative. I think it looks superb and is what I would have expected to see from Flynn.
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It reminds me of #17 Bultusrol Upper.
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Wayne,
Great stuff! I'm looking at the routing of the course in Daniel Wexler's book. For me to get some orientation did holes 15-18 play along the ocean? It could have been a brutal stretch on a day with strong winter winds. However, 10-13 playing downwind probably provided the scoring opportunities.
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Wayne,
Thanks for the update. I see your construction details on the other post.
Mike
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Wayne;
Notice how much that drawing looks like the first iteration (drawing) of Shinnecock's #16. He obviously altered that app 100 yard long Sahara bunker set effect at Shinnecock in the next two drawing iterations but other than that it initially looked a lot like that drawing above. The green at Shinnecock is angled slightly the other way but other than that....
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Wayne:
What Flynn should have done with that drawing and design is to flip all the fairway above the shot line in the second half fairway section over to the area underneath the shot line. If he'd done that he would've had precisely what Crump was in the process of doing to PVGC's #7 when he died. See that mound on the far right side of the Sahara bunker section? Crump wanted the golfer to hit the second shot right over that to the ideal postion to approach the #7 green which is angled out to the right just as that one in the drawing above is. Crump called that mound (which is still there at the far right side of HHA) his "miniature alps"! The ideal shot to the right side of the second fairway section was supposed to be blind and long!
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Bill,
At Boca Raton South, the second shot at 15 and holes 16-18 ran south to north nearly perpendicular to Camino Real Drive. 10-13 are shorter holes (13 was a short par 5) andwere important to score with the wind. Stopping the ball on the green may have been tough. Ideal shots with the wind might have just carried some of the bunkers and run onto the green.
Mike,
I'm glad I had a good representation of the detail that Flynn utilized in his instructions.
Tom,
Right you are. One of the iterations of the 16th at Shinnecock is similar to this drawing. Fascinating about the intentions of Crump at #7 at Pine Valley and the use of the mounding in HHA.
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Wayne:
I've played a ton of golf at a couple of courses just up the road (A1A) from the old Flynn Boca South course and the most common wind (in season) would be right over your right shoulder as you proceed along holes that run south to north along the ocean. That would make Boca South's last four holes primarily down wind or with a slight hooking wind. There're all kinds of winds down there due to the tropics but the most common (or prevailing wind) in season is right out of the south/south east.
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I know you have played a lot of golf along the east coast of Florida and lived there for a time. I believe you. I was told by someone in the business that the prevailing winter wind was out of the north northeast. Guess he got it wrong.
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"I was told by someone in the business that the prevailing winter wind was out of the north northeast. Guess he got it wrong."
Not necessarily. The wind sure can blow out of the north (probably that "weather change/bad weather's acoming" type of thing) but the far more common prevailing wind in my experiences of over 45 years down there in the season is that holes running south to north play with a prevailing hooking wind coming in off the Ocean out of the south/south east. Maybe when the guy in the business was down there the wind was howling out of the north! ;)
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The photo record of Boca Raton South is pretty thin but what's available shows it was as dramatic as the drawing Wayne posted.
This oblique photo taken in 1942, just after the course was closed, shows features identical to those in the drawing. Even the small islands in the bunker next to the green are still visible.
Wayne - do you have any thoughts on what Flynn's reputation would have been had this course been saved rather than the more mundate North.
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7zuyh/brs17.JPG)
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Before anyone thinks I'm dense, I did notice that the fairway on the right was extended parallel to the Sahara bunkers. A long fairway bunker also appears to have been added on the right - although that might be just a natural feature.
Perhaps the wind over the right shoulder was running too many drives into the Sahara bunkers and an adjustment in strategy was needed.
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I think the strategy of the hole becomes even better with the shoulder wrapping around the Sahara bunkers (HHA) quite obviously it was probably reckoned as such later on in the field or after some play.
Craig,
Boy do I have something to show you concerning Rec Park/Virginia CC in Long Beach!
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Wayne,
I hate to admit it, but TEPaul is correct with respect to the direction of the prevaiing winter wind. North winds are rather infrequent and can play havoc at many courses in the area.
I'm curious if any part of Boca Raton South is incorporated into the current golf course that exists to the immediate south of the Boca Raton Hotel course (north), the Royal Palm Yacht and Tennis club course.
It would be interesting if either Craig Disher or Scott Burroughs can get a current aerial of the Royal Palm Yacht and Tennis golf course and the Hotel Course so that we might have a look.
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Pat,
I think this is it. I had it from before.
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Boca%20Raton.jpg)
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Pat,
My understanding, it may be wrong, is that there is no holes nor common ground in the current South course. There may be some ground on the current North course but there is no surviving Flynn holes. As you say, the best way to determine this is with an aerial of the current courses.
Craig,
Dan Wexler notes in his books of lost courses that both Boca Raton South and Mill Road Farm Golf Course were considered one of the top courses in the country. This is corroborated in contemporary newspaper and magazine accounts. There are a number of other NLE Flynn courses such as Opa Locka, Floranada, and Yorktown CC that, if around today, would add to the consideration and regard for Flynn's design work.
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Pat,
I'm certain that Royal Palm YTC doesn't incorporate any of Boca Raton South. The course was completely abandoned for many years and I doubt that any trace of it was left when RPYTC was built. And I doubt the builders had access to Flynn's plans.
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7zuyh/rp.JPG)
The hotel course doesn't have much of Flynn's plan either. However, the routing of some holes is very similar, although on a shrunken piece of land.
(http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7zuyh/bocanorth2000.jpg)
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Wayne Morrison,
Tommy's picture shows the current Royal Palm Yacht and Tennis golf course right where the old Boca Raton South course existed.
Are any of the original Flynn holes incorporated in the Royal Palm course.
Craig Disher,
I posted before seeing your response.
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Tommy,
This photograph looks to be the Cloister Inn Golf Course done by Donald Ross in 1925. At this time, Flynn was designing the North and South courses for the Ritz Carlton. We have these plans and they match a plat for the Mizner Development Company in 1927. I can't remember offhand but I believe the Ross course was plowed under and Flynn's Boca Raton courses were laid out here under Geist's redevelopment of Mizner's failed project.
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Craig,
Does my memory serve me correctly or am I too tired to figure this out clearly this evening? I gotta go back to the files to double check all of this.
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Wayne,
I'm confused. Which photo do you think is Ross's Cloisters? Tommy's photo is a contemporary one of the Boca Raton resort its adjacent course which replaced Flynn's BR North. His photo also includes the Royal Palms development on the site of the BR South.
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"Wayne,
I'm confused. Which photo do you think is Ross's Cloisters? Tommy's photo is a contemporary one of the Boca Raton resort its adjacent course which replaced Flynn's BR North. His photo also includes the Royal Palms development on the site of the BR South."
Craig,
The photo that Tommy posted is similar in routing to the original course on that site, Ross's Cloister Inn GC. I thought the B+W might have been an old photo but the number of houses and variations of routing confused me in my sleepy stupor last night. Since his photo is of the present Boca Raton and Royal Palms courses then I can see how I confused ye and me. Interesting that the present course is reminiscent of the Ross design....I wonder if the developers did that on purpose.
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It's hard for me to believe that the new course at the resort was designed with Ross's Cloisters in mind. If you compare the original Flynn plan to the current photo, you can see that new construction gobbled up 20-30% of the land Flynn used. I think it's just coincidental that the current routing looks like Ross's.
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"So then, is the "general HHA" concept Tillinghast's or Flynn's?"
redanman, you booby, the HHA concept is a reuse of the "Sahara" concept that C.B. Macdonald used on the 2nd hole of NGLA from the architectural concept he found at Sandwich's #3 where one option was to carry 200 yards of sand off the tee. Tillinghast obviously recast that idea as a suggestion to Crump on the 7th hole at PVGC and Flynn picked up the concept from that time we call "Flynn's PVGC influence". Flynn was a member of PVGC and so was his partner Howard Toomey and don't forget the Wilson's and Merion actually lent Flynn to PVGC probably to finish off the construction of holes #12-15 at PVGC (as well as to help fix PVGC's agronomic failure) after Crump died in 1918. There were a number of things Flynn picked up from PVGC in his later designs such as greens that were islands in sand and the use of the so-called "interrupted" or "segmented" fairway.
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Tom,
I think it is fair to say that the evolution of the "Hell's Half Acre" hazard emerged from C.B. Macdonald's version at N.G.L.A. When it opened, it was deemed an architectural masterpiece, and egos aside, I can only imagine most of the great golden age architects respected and studied the course.
I would argue that Tillinghast's 'Sahara' hole at Pine Valley is a rather loose interpretation of Macdonald's rendition. The scale and severity of the hazard seem to be much more impressive, offering a greater thrill to those able to carry it. Further, Pine Valley's 'Sahara' hole does not offer an alternative route, the hazard is a forced carry, and thus penal by design.
Tyler Kearns
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BillV
That is a very good question. Maybe one of the Tillie experts can give their two cents.
It is my impression that the HHA at PV, that Tillinghast took credit for, and used often on a number of his own designs, was an original concept, and not based upon any links model. At that time the term Sahara was more or less a generic one, used to describe any large expanse of sand.
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The thing most of you guys should probably come to realize and accept is most architects, and certianly architects in Macdonald, Tillinghast and Flynn's day used features (massive bunkering and such for instance) as concepts in what they did. The generally got that concept from somewhere and simply because the feature in that concept did not look exactly like in dimension or something else the feature they took that concept from does not mean they didn't take the idea from it.
We know for a fact that the 2nd hole at NGLA was modeled after the sahara concept at Sandwich because Macdonald and Whigam wrote a rather long article about NGLA's #2 hole explaining exactly that.
It seems pretty obvious that Tillinghast is given credit by Crump and most everyone else for the idea of HHA on the 7th at PVGC. There may be something somewhere in Tillinghast's voluminous writing where he explains exactly where he came up with the idea of a HHA which he referred to in "The Course Beautiful" as "the great hazard" as being the prime factor in a sketch he drew of the true "three shotter", a par 5 that no one was supposed to reach, in concept, in two shots.
Seeing as Tillinghast was an early writer and very good player he undoubtedly was aware of NGLA as practically every good east coast architect and good player of that early time was. (Macdonald was a friend of Crump's, and probably Tillinghast's too, and he did make at least one early visit and another later visit to the site of PVGC (at first he called it "Crump's Folly" and said it could be a great golf course if Crump could figure out how to get grass to grow there---which coincidentally became a huge problem just as it had at early NGLA!).
So it's probably very appropriate to assume that HHA was a loose "concept" use of the sahara concept from Sandwich and then NGLA in a different arrangement. This is probably not much different from the "concepts" Macdonald noted and drew in Europe for his NGLA. Many seemed to think Macdonald exactly copied many of those holes in Eurorpe. By his own admission (and writing) he did not---or not entirely. What he did is encorporate some of those "concepts" of entire holes or parts of them from Europe into some of what he did at NGLA. Probably half the holes of NGLA are that way and the other half are completely original holes. Tilllinghast was logically no different. He was certainly familiar with European golf and architecture having spent time there before and in the beginning of his career. It may be true to say that Tillinghast originally came up with the idea of what he called "a great hazard" smack dab in the middle of a super long par 5 for that time. It's known, also that Crump even before he began building PVGC wanted two par 5s that were impossible to reach in two shots so with that requirment and with the application of Tillinghast's "great hazard" of 100 yards long (Tillinghast actually said that) the idea of the true "three shotter" of the type of PVGC's HHA #7 was born. But the very idea of that enormous sand hazard probably came from somewhere and most like NGLA by way of Sandwich.
As said on this or another thread there's no quesition at all in our minds that William Flynn borrowed the concept of PVGC's #7 HHA in his later designs, probabaly exclusively his long par 5 designs.
Again, Flynn was extremely familiar with PVGC---he was actually lent by Merion to finish the construction on holes 12-15 and to solve the agronomy problems on the course following Crump's unexpected death. Flynn was a member of PVGC as was his partner Howard Toomey.