Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Dan Herrmann on September 07, 2004, 03:08:39 PM
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Yep - I noticed, and I don't think it's a big deal. I think Tiger is, to a large extent, a product of his father. He has traditional manners, which is a good thing.
I bet Vijay never thought about any symbolism - he was probably looking to see how long the range would remain open.
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I like the idea of taking your hat off when shaking hands with those with whom you've just spent 4 hours playing golf. It's an extra show of respect -- not critical, not obligatory, but I like it nonetheless. I just think Vijay is too self-absorbed to bother.
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Dave,
Assuming you eventually drag yourself away from GCA long enough to see the inside of a courtroom, I suggest that when the judge enters the room, you remain seated. It is a silly tradition. You are going to be seated anyway and the judge is nothing more than a crony with better political connections than yourself. After attempting this breaking of silly traditions, please reply and tell me what happens. ;)
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Shivas -- I think you're looking at this from a negative perspective. I don't think less of someone for not shaking hands at all -- maybe they're in a hurry, or they've got something else on their mind. And I don't think it shows less respect if someone doesn't take their hat off to shake hands. But I think when someone takes their hat off, it shows more than the normal level of respect.
It would show even more respect if they cleaned my clubs after the round. I wouldn't expect that, but I'd like it.
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VJ didn't remove his hat after the playoff win over Leonard & DiMarco in the PGA either.
Maybe he just doesn't do it.
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Good Manners are good manners! I really don't care if its Vijay or Joe Blow at the local muni. This is a tradition that dates from centuries ago. You remove your hat(helmet) to signify that combat has ended. That is why the military trained Earl made it clear to Tiger that he would remove his hat.
I might also add that it was only yesterday that I asked a guest of mine to remove his hat in the bar after the round. It is also a show of respect to all present and traditionally that a gentlemen would not enter combat in someone's castle. Incidentally, the tradition at my home club is that if a player doesn't want to remove his hat in the bar, he is obliged to buy the house a round. Pretty good way to teach manners! Only the truly dim wouldn't learn the lesson.
I would suggest that this is not the first time Vijay has acted like a heel. Although he seems a humble man, the public has not embraced him. His handlers just need to smooth off his rough edges!
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If Tiger Woods was Japanese instead of Cabalasian and he bowed after the match would you expect Vijay to return the bow? Or if he was Italian would we expect Vijay to kiss him on the cheek?
If Tiger wants to take off his hat then fine for Tiger but that doesn't mean Vijay is obligated or show poor sportsmanship because he doesn't do the same. Tiger doesn't set the standards for manners.
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Pretty interesting that those for Vijay taking off his hat are the same ones for John Morgan wearing his hat backwards.........hmmmmmmmm.
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I wasn't watching after the final putt on Sunday but it seems to me that I've seen a lot of PGA Tour players shake hands after a round without removing their hats (or visor in Vijay's case). Tiger does it and so do a lot of other players but it's not nearly as universal as shaking hands.
I generally make sure to remove my sunglasses (if I'm wearing them) any time I shake hands, before or after a round. Somehow shaking hands with someone with whom I can't make and return eye contact would seem contrary to the whole idea of handshaking. But I don't generally remove my hat except to go indoors. I've somehow failed to miss the point of the whole hat etiquette thing.
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W.S.Cosgrove posted ;
Good Manners are good manners! I really don't care if its Vijay or Joe Blow at the local muni. This is a tradition that dates from centuries ago. You remove your hat(helmet) to signify that combat has ended. That is why the military trained Earl made it clear to Tiger that he would remove his hat.
I might also add that it was only yesterday that I asked a guest of mine to remove his hat in the bar after the round. It is also a show of respect to all present and traditionally that a gentlemen would not enter combat in someone's castle. Incidentally, the tradition at my home club is that if a player doesn't want to remove his hat in the bar, he is obliged to buy the house a round. Pretty good way to teach manners! Only the truly dim wouldn't learn the lesson.
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I think that's worth re-posting ! IMO the tipping of the hat is a Do or Don't Do option for every golfer. What harm does it do ? Some may be getting mixed up with the notion that it stems from the old "tip your hat to his Lordship" crap. That I don't agree with !
Just had this very discussion with a very good US pal last week who "was" a non-tipper. Now he does !
As WSC says, "good manners, are good manners"
Alfie
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Just to show what a know-nothing I am...
A couple weeks ago I was reading the web site for some golf club in England. They had a section on expected manner of dress and so forth and it included a list of things not allowed "at the club". First was hats, I thought that a bit strange. Then was spikes, I figured that just meant no metal spikes. Then there was a mention of no rain gear, I couldn't for the life of me figure why a golf course in that part of the world wouldn't allow a rain suit.
After re-reading that section a couple times I finally sussed out that "at the club" meant "in the clubhouse", not on the golf course. Good to know I'm not as ill-mannered as my first reading would have led me to believe (although I'd still choose to wear long pants no matter what the temperature rather than suffer the indignity of knee socks).
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Alfie:
You'll be pleased to here (if you didn't know this already) that the penalty for failure to remove one's hat in the clubhouse is enforced by clubs here in the US also. Having faced the penalty due to inattentiveness caused by excitement at a club on the Monterey Peninsula, I can also happily report that they do give offenders one warning before enforcement. ;)
As for the rest here, I can't help but thinking what harm does it do to go ahead and remove one's hat at the end of the round? To me NOT doing so makes more of a combative statement than doing so makes any such submissive suggestion, so I go ahead and do it, every time, no matter who I am playing with or why, competition or no. Again, what harm does it do?
TH
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That's my take on it, Huck. I'm not out to roast Vijay Singh or anybody else who doesn't do it. But I think it just adds an extra level of civility in an increasingly uncivil world, so I try to do it, and I like seeing it done. Those who opt out may do so with no hard feelings on my part.
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Concur, and good clarification, Rick. I too take absolutely no offense if others DON'T do it. I just secretly feel better-bred and superior.
;) ;) ;)
Oh man, I hope you know I'm kidding about that. The main point is exactly as you just stated it.
TH
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Of course it does no harm, Tom. That aint' the point. The point is that you're not automatically a classless, toothless, trailer-park Appalachian boor (or a Michigan fan) if you choose not to. ;D
Yahooooo! Great minds crossed in cyberspace, giving crap about the exact same thing.
;D ;D ;D
Of course it shows no superiority nor inferiority - Rick summed it up perfectly. It's just a nice thing to do. I for one like to do nice things.
TH
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And another thing. At the start of the round, guys often shake hands. Do they remove their hats then? No. And that's an even more appropriate time to do it if you're meeting someone for the first time on the tee.
Who says 'they - we' don't?
When was the last time you wore a hat anyway? you peasant..
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I rarely wear a hat on the golf course, but when I do I almost always forget to doff it before shaking hands on the 18th. One reason for this is when I do wear a hat it is almost invariably because it is raining and I am trying to keep my head dry. I'm not sure that two (or more) people voluntarily getting wet is necessarily the height of civility. I don't think this behavious (or lack thereof) makes me a bad person, nor do I think that rote doffers are superior beings, but if Bob Huntley wants to put me on double secret probation for these numerous heresies, so be it........
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Of course it does no harm, Tom. That aint' the point. The point is that you're not automatically a classless, toothless, trailer-park Appalachian boor (or a Michigan fan) if you choose not to. ;D
SAYS WHO ?[/color]
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To add a bit of confusion to this exchange the picture on Yahoo sports has Tiger and VJ shaking hands both with their caps on.
I would also note that caps are sometimes kept on due to contract issus with sponsors. Nothing like haveing that Nike Swoosh on while Tiger is talking.
The one issue I fully agree with is removing cap/visor when inside. Cap hair is an ugly issue but good manners trumps it.
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Which is in turn trumped by money, as John Keenan rightly points out. When have you ever seen Tiger interviewed inside with his hat off? He might be all manners and respect for a moment or two after a round, but if Earl ever taught him to take his hat off indoors, Nike managed to eliminate that respectful habit.
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As someone pointed out, Vijay was wearing a visor not a hat. I recall reading somewhere that Emily Post, after thoughtful deliberation, carved out an exception for open air headwear to the extent that if hair is clearly visible through the top of the chapeau than it is no expression of poor manners whatever to leave your open air headpiece on when addressing your opponent on the 18th Green.
(she went on at some length about the several exceptions to this policy, viz. non-applicability to mesh gas station lids with cute redneck expressions ("Kick Some Bass!") and matchplay situations where you are closed out with no fewer than 3 holes remaining (or 6 in a 36 hole match).)
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To add a bit of confusion to this exchange the picture on Yahoo sports has Tiger and VJ shaking hands both with their caps on.
I would also note that caps are sometimes kept on due to contract issus with sponsors. Nothing like haveing that Nike Swoosh on while Tiger is talking.
The one issue I fully agree with is removing cap/visor when inside. Cap hair is an ugly issue but good manners trumps it.
John,
I can't find this photo but if it must have been from before the round. I was fresh from my Club Championship and after listening to how classy our new champions speech was, I was hoping for a touch of class from Vijay. Tiger removed his hat as he approached him and extended his hand. Vijay shook it briefly and left his visor on. It struck me as sooo wrong.
I guess you can add etiquette to the bizarre concept of kicking the football BETWEEN the yellow things as subjects simply not taught at Northwestern or in Fiji.
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Someone mentioned my name in this matter, as though I was a Neanderthal ready to pounce on the unwary.
My take on this was that as I was educated in the British and colonial system, if one did not remove one's hat indoors it was possible to receive six of the best from a malacca cane across ones arse. Having said that, I think removing one's hat and and shaking hands is a sign of respect but need not be followed slavishly. I have no less regard for an opponent that does not doff his cap that one who does.
I do find that the cap on indoors in the interview tent is to please the sponsors of the possible winners , and quite frankly is an abomination. We have the First Tee Program extolling the virtue of etiquette etc., and yet this sort of degradation of good manners is encouraged.
Just call me old fashioned.
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Watch the Ryder Cup and you'll see that most of the Americans are oafish boars and the Europeans are well-mannered cap doffers.
Why even shake the guys' hand -- just flip him off and head for the clubhouse.