Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Mark_Rowlinson on August 26, 2004, 09:55:47 AM
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In reply to another post I noted that Waterville ranked as hish as 23rd in the British Isles top 100 and Donegal makes it in at 66th. Are these really better than The Island [70], Killarney Mahoney's Point [71], Portstewart Strand [88], Tralee [96], Enniscrone [97], Old Head of Kinsale [99]?
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Waterville was closed when I was in Ireland in early spring, so I didn't see/play it, but I polled every caddie and local player on their SW Irish faves, and Waterville always was an enthusiastic second (after either Lahinch or Ballybunion Old).
An aside, I think that Lahinch is going to rise dramatically in all the ratings, as people go back and see/play the completed Hawtree work.
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Larry, I'm sure you're right. Golf World's 2004 ranking comes out about the middle of October. Unfortunately, I shall not be in England then, but I'm sure one of the UK-based contribuots will list them all.
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Donegal better than Enniscrone? Well, I know there's no point arguing with lists like this, but that one's from left field.
As I said on another thread, Lahinch is right up there with Ballybunion et al.
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Although Waterville does not go well with my game and I find it very difficult, it is a very good golf course and worthy of a high place on the list. I'm sure that the listwith the #23 ranking was printed before Fazio's work was completed.
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I haven't seen Enniscrone or Old Head and I only saw a little of Mahoney's Point while playing the other course there, but my take on the others would be:
Waterville
The Island
Portstewart
Tralee
Donegal
and I'd have Carne and Connemara on the list before Tralee.
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Donegal is way too high. Some cool holes, but plenty in the flat land. I'm sure The Island and the newer courses are better.
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Portstewart is surely lower than it ought to be. Some wonderful holes there, although the finish coming out of the deep dunes is a bit pedestrian.
Tralee's second nine is extremely high on the postcard scale, but considering the bipolar nature of the first and second nines, I find it hard to argue for a strong climb up the ladder.
Old Head. Hmm… Some agree wholeheartedly. Some just want to chop my head, but… the cliffs and the views and the lighthouse and the well-manicured textures and the history of the land are extraordinary. And I enjoyed playing there, but there are many better courses on the island and if not for the granite promontory, it wouldn't get nearly the attention it does.
Waterville, on the other hand… It's a funny place. I didn't care for the first nine much on my first visit, but the course has grown on me (and been reworked along the first few holes) since. I find that the more I play it, and in the wider variety of conditions, the more I enjoy it – especially having played once on a soft day late October with a 35+mph breeze. 106yd 4-iron… really! It deserves a fairly high slot.
I can't speak to the others, although Enniscrone is tops on my short list for the next visit.
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Wow this thread shows how different some people's views can be. Having just been in Ireland a couple months ago, and playing Waterville a second time, I still don't get very excited about it. I would put Tralee and Old Head ahead of it (and Connemara as well since someone brought it up) Waterville is a very uneven course, with some great holes but some clunkers as well.
However, Mahoney's Point doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as those wonderful courses. If you want to play it, just choose any random good muni in the SE US coastal region and you'll see it. Pine trees lining the fairway, sea not really coming into play at all (doesn't really come into play much on Killeen either, for that matter, but at least 3 and 4 are good links style holes there) Both Killarney courses are vastly overrated, IMHO. They aren't fit to be practice ground for a place like Tralee, let alone Ballybunion and Lahinch!
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I wonder will the new Rossapenna course feature? I have not seen it, but would like to hear what anyone who has thinks of it.
I played Glasson yesterday, and wouldn't be mad on it. Not a patch on Headfort or Esker Hills. Are these in the top 100?
Christy O'Connor and Jack Nicklaus have just built a course in West Dublin, but it's not open yet. We will be hearing about this soon, I'd imagine.
Mt Jiliet gets a lot of criticism, but I think it's very good. A very fair course with some wonderful holes.
Expect the new Carton House Montgommery course to feature too.
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Of those I played I would place them in this order for a return visit.
Lahinch,
Waterville,
Enniscrone/Carne
Baltray/Tralee
The Island/Ballyliffin Old and Glashedy
Dooks/Sligo
The European Club
Doonbeg
Druids Glen (Wouldn't care if I didn't return in 2 lifetimes)
Those I haven't played in the order of most want to:
Ballybunion Old and Cashen
RCD and Royal Portrush
Portmarnock
Royal Dublin/Connemara/Rosapenna/Donegal
A few on the Nth Ireland Coast in what order I don't know.
Old Head
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No mention of Rosses Point, Cork and Carlow...wouldnt these warrant inclusion in an Irish Top 20, or even a GB&I Top 100?
Jack Marr, where would you place Carlow in relation to the modern courses you mention such as Mount Juliet, Rathsallagh, etc.?
Irish golf has more high-profile, modern courses than the UK - so the ratings are more subjective/fluid. Are the modern courses really as good or enjoyable (e.g. K, Druids, Juliet, Doon, Head etc.)?
Keith
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Keith,
I probably misled you. I was really after opinions on the relative merits of Waterville and Donegal. The full Irish list was:
R Co Down 2
Portmarnock 7
R Portrush 8
Ballybunion Old 10
European Club 21
Waterville 23
Co Louth 27
Lahinch 30
Co Sligo 44
Mt Juliet 51
Ballyliffin (Glashedy) 56
Killarney (Killeen) 60
Donegal 66
The Island 70
Killarney (Mahoney's Point) 71
Druid's Glen 77
K Club 79
Portstewart (Strand) 88
Tralee 96
Enniscrone 97
Old Head 99
The list was published in October 2002, and was probably compiled some months in advance of that, so it's unlikely anyone had much experience of the Hawtree modifications at Lahinch at that time. Surely it must climb steeply when the next list comes out.
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Mark
Waterville is much stronger that Donegal (Murvagh).
Having Lahinch behind C Louth (Baltray) is way off in my opinion. Baltray is a fine course but it's not good enough to be that high in the rankings. Sligo is a better too.
Where's the Valley at Portrush!
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Paul, I concur on County Louth. It's a fine course but not significantly better than Sligo or Enniscrone. I would rather play Carne which isn't on the list than Sligo, Enniscrone, or Louth.
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i certainly think the new course at rosapenna (sandy hills?) and portsalon belong on the list of top irish courses. i think the rosapenna course will in time come to be considered just as favourably as any of pat ruddy's other efforts - certainly the european. it would be interesting to know what his own view is of how it stacks up as a course.
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No mention of Rosses Point, Cork and Carlow...wouldnt these warrant inclusion in an Irish Top 20, or even a GB&I Top 100?
Jack Marr, where would you place Carlow in relation to the modern courses you mention such as Mount Juliet, Rathsallagh, etc.?
Keith
Keith - Carlow and Mount Juliet are completely different courses style-wise. Personally, I rate Mt Juliet much higher than others seem to, but I'd probably prefer to play Carlow. It's a much more old-fashioned course. I have not played the new nine in Carlow.
Incidently, the Carlow the Carlow gofl links... cause all courses were called the links at one stage.
I think if you like Carlow, you'd like courses like the Grange and the Hermitage, both in Dublin. I don't think tourists would ever venture to play these courses, though, as they are not really high-profile. The Castle in Dublin is also similar, but they've redone the greens recently, changing the course a bit.
Jack
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I presume Grange still opens with two short holes - pretty unusual.
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Yeah. I have not played it in years, although my uncle was captain there a few years ago. They have since changed some holes because of a CPO to build a road. Unfortunately, they are now charging 75 euro to play.
The two opening par 3s don't take away from the course, I don't think. It's only five minutes from my doorstep too, which earns it extra points.
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Also, Carne has its faults, but it's better than many of the courses listed in the top 100. Most importantly, people enjoy playing there, which should count for something, I think.
There are also lists of the best holes in the world, which feature a few holes from the European Club, a course I like a lot. However, I think there are few holes I have played that are better than the 17th in Carne.
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Jack I agree with you on the 17th. I was also a fan of 11 and 12. Carne was definitely enjoyable to play. I can't say the same for either Doonbeg or Druids Glen (I only found the water once but the constant need to carry water was overdone to the extreme)
Also there is a public course beside The Island GC one of the locals told me this was nearly as good as its neighbour for their relative prices. Has anyone played it? Impressions?
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Thanks Jack,
I think it would be great to have more historic, low-profile Irish members-clubs featured or mentioned on here. Arent these the life-blood of Irish golf? They just don't go seeking the attention of the Golfing Press and Tourist rota.
I've been told Kilkenny is a very good course, but it gets no publicity sitting in the shadow of Mt Juliet...
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Mr Durrant,
Sorry to be so formal, but I don't know your first name. I couldn't agree more with what you say.
There is no shortage of big money, big green fee, big advertising budget courses in Ireland. Some are old courses, others new. The Republic of Ireland is currently extraordinarily wealthy. (I shall not mention the letters EU). It breeds instant millionaires and new money faster than mosquitos. But what is going to happen when there is a downturn in the national economy? Sure, golf will be cheaper for well-heeled visitors, but there will be far fewer wealthy Irish people willing or able to pay the huge fees currently expected of members or visitors.
We've seen the effect of greed in Spain and Portugal where green fees have rocketed over the years and what was a viable winter golfing playground for most ordinary northern Europeans has become a playground only for those who don't mind paying a $100 green fee - and they, of course, can afford to flit to the latest golfing vogue place and forsake their old haunts. Less wealthy Brits now go to Florida in the off season and enjoy twilight rates on public access courses.
I suspect there are still old country courses in Ireland which offer traditional golf at a reasonable price. We need to know about them. I can think of some in the North, but I don't know the South well enough to be able to recommend any personally.
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Harry Bradshaw was the pro at course called Kilcroney in Wicklow. I believe the course is now gone, but I was curious if anyone knew who designed it?
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Jack I agree with you on the 17th. I was also a fan of 11 and 12. Carne was definitely enjoyable to play. I can't say the same for either Doonbeg or Druids Glen (I only found the water once but the constant need to carry water was overdone to the extreme)
Also there is a public course beside The Island GC one of the locals told me this was nearly as good as its neighbour for their relative prices. Has anyone played it? Impressions?
Sean
There is a public course beside the Island called Corbalis. Last time I played, about one and a half years ago, it was 18 euros to play.
There is a wonderful nine there and a very average one. Bernhard Langer used to play there before the British Open. It has one of the best links holes in Ireland too.
Re 11 and 12 in Carne - I think they're great driving holes when the wind is into your face, but when the wind is with you, it's just a 7 iron to the corner. I think you really have to have a wind into you for these holes to be good...
K Durrant
All these courses would be very well known by the Irish golfing public. The thing is, do you forgo a big name course to visit one of these? I think visitors should maybe visit one on a tour of Ireland. I will think up some worthy ones and list them here.
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Jack,
If you could point us in the direction of those lovely little Irish courses that retain their charm and challenge, yet avoid the excessive green fees currently prevalent amongst those good but not top-class courses that happen to be in the neighbourhood of a great or prominent course we should all benefit enormously.
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mark - i recently played a few courses in donegal (i posted on the trip - pictures still to follow): narin&portnoo; cruit island (9hole); rosapanna (2 courses) and portsalon.the cumulative green fee for 4.5 rounds of excellent links golf was Euro 190. a trip to that part of the world is highly recommended, both on golf and value grounds.
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Mark
I'm not an expert on architecture, so my opinoin may differ from the group's, but here's a few that I think are worthwhile. Unfortunately, places like the Grange are no longer a cheap greenfee.
The Castle, Rathfarnham, Dublin
Baltinglas, Baltinglas, Co Wicklow.
Arklow Golf Links, Arklow, Co Wicklow.
Ardee Golf Club, Co Louth
Coollattin Golf Club, Co Wicklow
Courtown GC, Co Wicklow
Delgany GC, Co Wicklow
The Hermitage, Co Dublin
The Curragh, Co Kildare
The Heath, Co Laois
Eskerhills, Co Offally
Mullingar GC, Co Westmeath
Tramore GC, Co Waterford
Cork GC, Co Cork
Connemara, Co Galway
Carne, Co Mayo
Enniscrone, Co Sligo
Strandhill, Co Sligo
Donegal, Co Donegal
plus all the ones Philip mentioned. Some of those listed I haven't played in a long time. I would be happy to play any of them.