Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Bob_Huntley on August 23, 2004, 06:29:08 PM
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Redanman wrote:
"My opinion is that you can play fast and shoot 150, so the point is moot. Just bring enough ammo if you spray into the hay. Just abandon it and play on, you're out of the medal competition anyway at that point. Just bring plenty of cheap balls so you don't care if you lose them. You don't need to worry about spinning shots on links even when it's raining. And please, don't be afraid to play the forward tees. I've seen many a Scot do it.
I have reasonable golf skills, but I can chop it with the best of them (around in 90-something) when my back really sucks or I can shoot 74 on a good day equally fast. (Play pace is much more dependent on my co-competitors). Miss 'em quick. No triple full speed practice swings to foozle the ball (Or stripe it for that matter!, please).
Go play them, but keep moving and have fun. p.s. THE OLD COURSE is made for literally anyone to play, just keep it left."
Bill really does get to the heart of the matter. My question, who is the fastest player in the GCA?
Bob
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The one time I played with Huckaby at Cinnabar Hills, he encouraged me to drive the ball into the group in front of us. Not sure if I was playing too slow for him or he just had zero confidence in my ability to hit fellow golfers. He may not be the fastest, but he definitely kept it moving along.
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I doubt I'm the fastest, but my fastest 18 holes (holing out on every hole) was 1:35 walking, although I didn't pull the flagstick on every green that evening. If I'm by myself I can usually do about 2:15 playing entirely by the rules. I have a good friend in Oregon who also takes about 2:15. When we played together we played in 2:10. We figure that is because we have the other guy to help find our ball.
All that being said, my ex-wife was just as fast even though she was taking 20 to 40 shots more than me.
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I'd probably have a shot at fastest in my class. If there's a category for "Fastest player, walking, taking 90+ strokes" I'd be in the running (pun intended). I don't always keep up with a fast player shooting 81, though.
When I'm playing alone at my my home course, which is hilly, I have to force myself to slow down or I'll end up hitting shots while I'm out of breath. I played back in the spring on a course at the beach with just a 4-iron and a lob wedge (no putter). Dead flat, short distances from green to tee and no golf bag to fiddle with. Shot a million (3-putted almost every hole) but it only took an hour to play 13 holes before I caught up with someone and had to slow down to play in with him.
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One of the fellows in our County Men's league plays almost every morning by himself at about 5:30-6Am. He carries about 6-8 clubs and jogs to his ball. He gets around in well under 2 hours... more like 1.5.
I on the other hand like to play fast, but compared to him, I would be halffast. I would rather do a halffast round (my specialty) in about 3 to 3.25. ;D ;) ::)
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I said "In the GCA."
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OK, OK, I'll take John V in a close race with Mike Golden, Redanman, and Tim Weiman...
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Personal best is, like John V, 1:35, but that was in a cart. Best walking times are in the 2:15 range.
Best single day was 54 holes in 7 hours (cart); my wife still gives me grief about that one.
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A cart's cheating. Dan Kelly and I have several times done 80 holes in 9 hours (8 a.m. -- 5 p.m. on November days in Minnesota when the course is clear and the days are short.)
My wife and I walk 18 holes in about 3:15 if no one is in our way. Why play faster? We're there to enjoy the game and each others' company.
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I don't know if I am the fastest on GCA but I can play in under 2 1/2 hours on courses such as Lake Merced, San Jose CC, and Palo Alto Hills GC without feeling like I'm rushing. I suppose if I was just trying to play quickly I could get it under 2 hours but it has never seemed important. Now I'm stuck playing muni golf once again and 4 hours seems like a quick round >:(
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I was going to throw my name into the hat, but John V. has clearly lapped the field. He's right, pulling those pins out and replacing them is a huge time killer. I don't see a problem though, just add the penalty strokes and keep movin'.
I will say that I am applying for a grant with the BBGE that will provide some cash for the first person here who sees me make a practice stroke.
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I am not sure if I am the fastest but I have to be up there. The fastest round I have is Bandon Dunes in about 1:30. This was with a caddy, so tending the flagstick wasn't a problem for me. I actually played 54 holes a day both days I was there. This was back in '99 before the world had found out about Bandon.
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The one time I played with Huckaby at Cinnabar Hills, he encouraged me to drive the ball into the group in front of us. Not sure if I was playing too slow for him or he just had zero confidence in my ability to hit fellow golfers. He may not be the fastest, but he definitely kept it moving along.
Ha! I believe at that point I was just unaware of your prodigious length off the tee.
But yes, I do like to go as fast as possible anyway. And I think my routine hitting the ball is pretty simple and quick. ;)
So yeah, I'd guess I can keep up with anyone... that being said, I have to really try to do so when I play with Mike Golden. Now that man does not dawdle. Neither does John V or redanman or Dave Moriarty or shivas, come to think of it. In fact there's your play in 2 hours fivesome....
TH
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I'm surprised that no one has yet claimed they can play faster walking than riding.
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I'm surprised that no one has yet claimed they can play faster walking than riding.
I too was waiting for that. Assuming carts can go anywhere, there is just plain no way that that can be true. A cart gets you to the next shot so much faster, it's just silly to even make the claim. I've done rounds in carts in stupid fast times, like an hour for 18 holes. I don't think I've ever gotten under 2 hours walking, even actively TRYING to go fast. There's just too much distance to cover.
Now if the carts have to stay on the path, it might be close. But even then I think the cart player is gonna win. But it would depend on the course and where the paths go. In a horrid extreme, I can see the walker winning. But it would take one hell of an extreme.
On a crowded course and assuming good conscientious walkers and silly dawdling riders, then walkers do go faster in the end. But make all things equal, and well... one doesn't walk as fast as a cart goes.
TH
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The notion that walkers can play faster than riders is even bigger hogwash than the notion that guys can play fast shooting 100. Fast players play faster in carts. Slow players play faster in carts. Slow players play slower walking. And fast players play slower walking. It's that simple. But carts aren't for speed for most people. They're for laziness and ease. So they're attractive to the slow player who is just out there for yuks anyway.
Perfectly said. And the bottom line remains this: if you have an hour to be home, and you want to get in 9 quick holes, you do not walk. Period. End of story.
TH
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Tom, How right you are. The key as you noted was going straight to your ball. A cart makes the round go oh so much faster. I however love a fast round alone with bag on shoulder. The tempo you get is so beautiful.
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Tom, How right you are. The key as you noted was going straight to your ball. A cart makes the round go oh so much faster. I however love a fast round alone with bag on shoulder. The tempo you get is so beautiful.
Oh you and me both brother. In terms of pure soulful enjoyment, there is nothing like a quick walk, either alone or with good friends. But if speed is the issue, oh yes, you need the motor. ;)
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What would you say the biggest time-wasters are?
My vote is hitting when it's "your turn". I say you should be reasonably courteous but hit when ready and finish putting out. These two alone would save quite a bit of time.
The thing is, these time-savers are meaningless unless everyone on the course is doing it.
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Gary: Agreed - those are both big ones. But I think redanman and shivas are on to something also. LONG routines featuring multiple practice swings make things go glacial also. And yes, my hero Nicklaus didn't help matters as a role model. Oh if we could all just follow Lanny Wadkins or John Daly in this area....
TH
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Huck,
Thanks for the mention about my speed of play. My secret isn't that I hit the ball so quickly (my preshot routine is probably slower than some) but that I walk fast and mostly keep it in play-hitting it straight and knowing the golf course probably makes it much easier.
There's no question being able to take carts anywhere makes everyone play faster except for the morons who share a cart and are too freaking lazy to get out of the cart and walk 20 yards to their ball while their partner is getting ready. I've even seen a whole group in 2 carts all drive to each ball and wait until that shot is hit before going to the next one. What a bunch of morons. And don't even talk to me about carts on paths only-that undeniably slows up play for everyone, particularly bad players who have to walk back and forth to the cart after every crappy shot.
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Mike, I'm with you on all of this. And there is something to be said for walking fast and knowing where to go, that's for sure. Even the fastest routine won't make up for dawdling along.
Did I mention how much I hate carts on path? Oh I know I've said many times in here I can have fun playing golf no matter what, but let's just say if I am forced into a carts on path situation, I have to work very hard to find the fun.
TH
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Back to the original question at hand posed by Mr. Huntley...
I'll take our fivesome round at Mid-Pines back in the TraditionalGolf.Com days of 1999 as the fastest GCA'rs of all time...it was pure poetry in motion.
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Back to the original question at hand posed by Mr. Huntley...
I'll take our fivesome round at Mid-Pines back in the TraditionalGolf.Com days of 1999 as the fastest GCA'rs of all time...it was pure poetry in motion.
That was legendary. Who were the participants, again?
TH
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Back to the original question at hand posed by Mr. Huntley...
I'll take our fivesome round at Mid-Pines back in the TraditionalGolf.Com days of 1999 as the fastest GCA'rs of all time...it was pure poetry in motion.
Evan I was thinking of that as I was reading down to here. As I recall, it was you, me, Craig Edgmand and I've forgotten who else (its hell getting old).
We played in around 3 hours as I recall (after taking over 5 to play Tobacco Road earlier in the day.) Of course, we weren't real serious about putting as they had just punched the greens and they were real bumpy.
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I was going to throw my name into the hat, but John V. has clearly lapped the field. He's right, pulling those pins out and replacing them is a huge time killer. I don't see a problem though, just add the penalty strokes and keep movin'.
The reason I played so fast that day was that I got out to Ghost Creek at 5:20 PM, sunset was 7PM and a shotgun start tournament had just ended so I had it to myself. Not pulling the flag helped on the first putts as I didn't have to walk up to the hole and back to do it and I did hole a couple of them. As I recall I shot 75 (not counting those penalty strokes).
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Perfectly said. And the bottom line remains this: if you have an hour to be home, and you want to get in 9 quick holes, you do not walk. Period. End of story.
TH
Or you get your butt in gear and play seven or eight walking and feel much more alive when you finish. ;)
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Maybe more events should be scheduled in the Pinehurst area.... 8)....I'd have at least some chance of attending....
And I normally walk my home course in 2:10-2:15 with no waiting. Those longish walks in the first 4 holes keep me from 2 hours flat. The back nine is 1 hour easy. Always leave the flags in.
Can't count the number of times people accidentally have been talking during my shot as I "John Daly'd" on them.
Too bad I'm actually a pretty slow walker speed-wise. Short, weak legs for my height.
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John, Evan,
Another one of the Mid Pines fivesome was Tim Weiman, I can't remember the fifth though.
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Perfectly said. And the bottom line remains this: if you have an hour to be home, and you want to get in 9 quick holes, you do not walk. Period. End of story.
TH
Or you get your butt in gear and play seven or eight walking and feel much more alive when you finish. ;)
That's a good thought as well. But especially when 7 or 8 leaves you far from the clubhouse, well... I'll take maximum holes played over feeling more alive. That's even more important when getting home late means death, also. ;)
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You guys have a good memory...it was me, John, Craig, Tim, and I believe "the Mayor".
Correct?
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I've seen players play slower in carts. It happens all the time in front of me.
Moe and Larry share a cart, drive to Moe's ball, Moe gets out, dawdles choosing a club, checks the wind, takes his practice swings (usually three, two if I'm lucky), finally hits his shot, cleans his club, replaces his divot (again, if I'm lucky), puts his club in the bag and gets back into the cart.
All this time, Larry has been sitting in the cart, five feet away, pondering the meaning of life or what he's going to have for lunch at the turn. They drive twenty yards to Larry's ball, and Moe waits for Larry to go through the same routine.
If I could have one wish granted per round, it would usually be for Moe and Larry to split up and walk -- or drive -- to their ball while the other guy is playing his shot.
Now that would save 45 minutes to an hour.
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I'm one of the few people at my club that walks and I usually end up playing with 3 guys in carts every weekend. Fortunately I'm also the longest hitter so I can keep up with them and even get ahead of them most times. I can see that if the walker was the shortest hitter he would be scrambling to keep up though.
Today I was out measuring a course and had to wait while one group played. Moe hit and then put his club away, got back in the cart and they drove 8 yards to Larry's ball (to the side, not in front of Moe). He got out, selected a club and hit (eventually). Tell me anyone can't walk faster than two guys playing like that.
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Rick - oh hell yes, that is a familiar lament, happens all the time. Slow or unthinking players can and do often play even slower out of a cart, for just the reasons you state. And it can get even worse when they get too enamored with the GPS readings, when such are available!
My point is more that just logically golf does go faster in a cart, because the point to point distance is covered more quickly. Of course there are exceptions to the blanket statement "golf goes faster out of a cart." Just put you and me in a cart, allowing us off the paths, and Mike Golden and John V. walking (two of the fastest players I know), with no one in front of us, and well... we'll likely ditch the other two by the 2nd tee, and have time for several beers before Mike and John join us at the 19th.
Disagree?
TH
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I've seen players play slower in carts. It happens all the time in front of me.
Moe and Larry share a cart, drive to Moe's ball, Moe gets out, dawdles choosing a club, checks the wind, takes his practice swings (usually three, two if I'm lucky), finally hits his shot, cleans his club, replaces his divot (again, if I'm lucky), puts his club in the bag and gets back into the cart.
All this time, Larry has been sitting in the cart, five feet away, pondering the meaning of life or what he's going to have for lunch at the turn. They drive twenty yards to Larry's ball, and Moe waits for Larry to go through the same routine.
Exactly. Of course, I've often been there with you, thinking nasty thoughts about the Stooges ahead -- so I know *exactly* whereof you speak.
You forgot a couple of things, though:
Gotta check that GPS!
And then, of course, you've gotta leave the cart in the wrong spot, hole after hole after hole.
AUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
P.S. I don't think Larry is pondering either the meaning of life or what he'll have for lunch. He's wondering when the cart girl is coming 'round again -- and idly speculating about whether she's of legal age.
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You forgot a couple of things, though:
Gotta check that GPS!
Great minds, Dan. ;)
TH
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Tom --
No, I don't disagree. Especially considering that I forgot about Moe and Larry's cell phones in my previous post.
I don't own one, and I'm sure you don't take calls on the course. We'd smoke 'em.
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Rick - right on bruthah. And yes, though I do own a cell-phone, I have yet to take it with me on the golf course.
TH
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I'm one of the few people at my club that walks and I usually end up playing with 3 guys in carts every weekend. Fortunately I'm also the longest hitter so I can keep up with them and even get ahead of them most times. I can see that if the walker was the shortest hitter he would be scrambling to keep up though.
I'm always the walker and almost always the shortest hitter. If the guys I'm playing with will forget about honors and hit when they get to the ball I don't have to scramble at all. Keeping up with typical cart-golfers is a casual strolling pace at best if they just hit their second shots while I'm walking.
I just hate it when they drive the cart up the fairway, park by their ball which is two yards past mine and then wait for me to catch up as though I'm holding them back. So I hustle along, get to my ball, hit it and then stand there cooling my heels while they get out of the cart and start rummaging around for the club they want to use.
Just hit the darned ball, I'll be there by the time you finish your three practice swings. Several times over the years I've been asked by guys in a cart some variation on "How can you be waiting on us for every shot when you're walking and we're in the cart?" to which I've yet to give an honest reply. They've got the driving part down pat they just need to figure out what to do when they get there.
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Tom,
I disagree about your timing, not about the fact that two in a cart will finish well ahead of two walking. Here's the basis for the disagreement:
When I was a member at San Jose CC 5 or 6 years ago I played almost all of my golf at day break, by myself (that's how much I disliked most of the members). Most of the time I started out behind 2 or 3 regulars who played cart ball, one in a cart, and who would always play in under 2 hours. I normally kept up with them for the 1st 7 holes and then they would pull away after that, with me finishing in about 2 hours 15 minutes. My guess was that I could have kept pace if both were in the same cart. And, if you remember, the 1st 7 holes at SJCC are pretty hilly and quirky.
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Mike, it must be something about San Jose Country Club that makes its members fast walkers. ;) For those who don't know, my parents were members there in the 1970s and I was still young enough to play on their membership.
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One of my all favorite rounds was with a good friend at Turnberry in June, 2000. Fist twosome off in the morning, raining, blowing about 30, never even seen the course before, finished in 2:30 and never, ever rushed. Those caddies know how to keep things moving.
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I'm one of the few people at my club that walks and I usually end up playing with 3 guys in carts every weekend. Fortunately I'm also the longest hitter so I can keep up with them and even get ahead of them most times. I can see that if the walker was the shortest hitter he would be scrambling to keep up though.
That's usually the case with me, too. On iron tee-shot holes (my course has 3 of them for me that are non-par 3's), that I'll more often be shortest, but that's just a shorter walk to the ball. Also, they (the cartballers) have to wait for the group ahead to finish anyways, so the more smoothly paced walking gives the group ahead time to finish out/move out of range and me time to get "catch up".
Most of the time, I beat the cartballers to the next tee (on the vast majority of holes with short distances).
Also, as I play the back tees during the warm months (about 8 months per year), I hit first, then go up to the further up tees to wait for them to hit, and so I'm ready to go when the last person hits.
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Once shot a 68 in 1:35 dead. It was late evening, 8.30 and I thought I had time for a quick nine before it got too dark. Had no time to think about my shots, hence the 68.
One of the most enjoyable rounds of my life.
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Shivas,
In defense of the fast play kings....the Barona outing made the fatal mistake of sending me and Lou out first.....despite the fact we don't throw our clubs or hissy fits...we were quite slow.....but I still blame the fat guy in the cart who was foisted upon us for some still unknown reason..
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I loathe slow play, but what is the point of fast play. Is it a game in itself -- fast play for the sake of fast play. Is that enjoy able? You can't possibly take in the strategy and beauty of the course or score as well (?)
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So....how much time does an additional 1000 yds add to a round....I have seen the same group on >6 handicaps (negative scale for the uninformed) take an hour longer on the 7300 tees than from the 6300.....It is difficult for me to put my finger on why the championship tees take just that much longer when as many balls are lost and found as from the front.....a K is worth about 6 shots in the real world...not the bizarro world of course rating where it is worth about 1.8...but is 6 shots a person really worth an hour of time...
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I play golf at very near the speed of light.
Gotta use the 90 compression balls, they kind of "dense up" after a few holes.
The tunnel vision thing really helps my concentration.
My rangefiner hardly works at all!
After the round I like to enjoy a beverage with my pals who have aged ten years while I was playing.
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Tom,
I disagree about your timing, not about the fact that two in a cart will finish well ahead of two walking. Here's the basis for the disagreement:
When I was a member at San Jose CC 5 or 6 years ago I played almost all of my golf at day break, by myself (that's how much I disliked most of the members). Most of the time I started out behind 2 or 3 regulars who played cart ball, one in a cart, and who would always play in under 2 hours. I normally kept up with them for the 1st 7 holes and then they would pull away after that, with me finishing in about 2 hours 15 minutes. My guess was that I could have kept pace if both were in the same cart. And, if you remember, the 1st 7 holes at SJCC are pretty hilly and quirky.
Me and anyone I choose in a cart, you and JV walking. We start at the same time. Pick a course, any course, so long as we can don't have to stay on the paths. I'll bet you anything you like we finish ahead of you with enough time for me to finish 3 beers, languidly sipping each.
Sure there are exceptions to this. Slow non-thinking cartballers won't stay ahead of conscientious walkers, as you proved at SJCC. But make the players equal, and the guys in the carts go faster, because no matter how fast you walk, you can't keep up with the cart point to point.
And that is all I was trying to say.
Now shivas, as for tall tales about playing quickly, hell my pace is always determined by two things:
a) the people in front of me and with me;
b) how fast I feel like going.
At Barona, we waited on every shot, remember? I also didn't care. It was too fun to rush through.
TH
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...but is 6 shots a person really worth an hour of time...?
Well, if we did some first-grade math, we'd get something like this:
4hrs is 240 mins / 18 holes is ~ 13.5mins per hole (for a foursome)
1000yds is like 2.5 holes (or 2 Par4 at Whistling Straits), so 2.5 * 13.5 = 33.75mins
So there's at least half of your 1hr. Then consider that few of the 7300yd courses are build with the same tee-to-green proximity as a 6300yd course and you've got at least 2 extra 3-5 minute walks to add (assuming we're considering that 1000yds is like 2 holes). So now you're at ~45 mins.
Throw in a hot-dog and a trip to the can at the turn and you're pretty close to 1hr :( And I didn't add any extra time in for the "macho-tax" which comes when a player of a 6300yd course feels the need to muscle-up to every drive on a 7300yd course...and a few of his dribblers end up in the environmental-area off the tee (that needs to be carried) or in the back-yard of the nearby houses. :( :(
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Bob;
Just found your thread... althought its been out here for a day or so...
"Fast Play"... those words are warm to my heart. If only more people could equate those words to an ejoyable golf experience, the world would be a better place and the golf industry would be rocking!
For instance, I went out after hours with a few friends. We played 11 hole in barely 1.5 hours. I was in the comfort zone - stepping up and hitting shots without too much thinking and was only 1 over through those 11. Then we hit a group that was playing "leisurely" - 4.5 hour pace. Too much time on my hands - finished 10 over - the mojo was gone!
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Better fast golf?
First group in the morning, dew on the ground, trying to beat the grounds to the next hole and nobody else on the course...
...or....
Last group of the day, sun setting, trying to get in 9 holes before meeting some people at the clubhouse for dinner, and about 1/3 of the shots are played in little to no daylight...
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While sitting around being bored at tournaments I've done a little checking on pace. One thing I've found is that the average player walks about 100 yards in 1 minute. Therefore adding 1000 yards to a course should add about 10 minutes walking plus the time to play a few shots.
It takes a group of 3 players (sorry but we usually play threesomes) about 2:20 to tee off from the time they reach the tee until the last ball is hit.
Also, a group plays the fastest around a green when 1 player misses the green and the other two are smart enough to read their putts while he/she is chipping. The first player usually takes less time to hit the chip than to read a long putt (not to mention marking/lifting/cleaning/fixing ball marks etc).
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Isn't "ready golf" a cop out? An acquiesence to the fact that you need to change the standard, whoever is out plays first, procedure? Has ready golf given slow golfers an excuse to be even slower and less ready? ... just food for thought...
No. let's say one ball is left side of fairway, 190 yards out, another is 30 yards ahead of that ball on the left side, and the third is right side of fairway, 150 yards out. The guy 150 yards out goes to his ball as Mr. 190 hits, as he's not in the way. He then is ready to hit after Mr. 190 hits, as Mr. 160 goes the thirty yards up to his ball. Ready golf, not farthest (furthest?) away golf.
Same with putting, if one ball is in the line of another, he can't check the line and get ready while another, closer ball is 90 degrees away and can check his line and be ready. Mr. 90 is ready to go before him.
Shivas,
That 2:20 includes time to put bag down, pull out club, remove head cover, get tee out of pocket (all of these for the first player only, as others can do this while first player gets ready), and tee the ball up (all players). Then calculate the average pre-shot routine times.
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I play golf at very near the speed of light.
Gotta use the 90 compression balls, they kind of "dense up" after a few holes.
The tunnel vision thing really helps my concentration.
My rangefiner hardly works at all!
After the round I like to enjoy a beverage with my pals who have aged ten years while I was playing.
Next time you're standing there waiting for the slowpokes who somehow got ahead of you, here's something to ponder -- from "my" column, last Thursday:
Muse, amuse
Including: Know thyself!
Swedge of Rochester: "Being the science geek that I am, I frequently find myself thinking about relativity and how it can affect my daily life.
"For instance: Since relativity shows that the faster you move, the slower time goes for you, I have to wonder what fraction of a second I make up on my daily commute thanks to relativity. Not much, granted, but I'm guessing it's gotta be a nanosecond or two. Add all those up, and after about 3 million years, I've saved myself a second or two. Wow!
"I have also hypothesized that people who run fast don't actually run fast; they just experience time more slowly, therefore appearing to the rest of us that they're really fast. That one's gonna be tough to prove.
"Lately, though, as I was passing someone on the road, I thought of the phrase 'passed him like he was standing still.' Suddenly, I found my brain slipping into relativity mode, and it exclaimed: 'That's a ridiculous statement! Everything you pass, you pass like it's standing still -- because relative to you, it IS standing still.'
"Once again being scared at the exclamatory tendencies of my brain (and that thing's loud -- I mean, it's right inside my head!), I came to realize that my brain was once again correct. Think about it: If you pass someone that's going 65 mph, and you're going 70 mph, you're passing that person (presumably they're driving something, unless of course they experience time EXTREMELY slowly and are therefore able to run that fast), it's the exact same as passing a tree at 5 mph. Well, not the exact same. I'm guessing that it's slightly less exciting and much less dangerous to pass a tree at 5 mph, but relative motion-wise, it's the same.
"As you can probably imagine, I'm a riot at parties."
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Did you ever stop to think... that Andy Rooney might be making a bigger impression on how we view things than we'd like to admit?
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Shivas,
You are so right ready golf can be a cop out, particularly in relation to the tee. All golfers should know when they have the honor and shoud be prepared to hit when it is their turn.
Mark, Great point when does fast play become some kind of race and the speed of play becomes the point rather than enjoyment of the game.
I am a mediocre player who does not take a practice swing, who hits quickly but enjoys noticing the birds, the flowers, the sky. I enjoy the walk, when I want to run I go running.
Cheers
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Shivas,
I have a very good feel for how long 45 seconds is because a few years ago my teaching pro started timing my routine and pointed out that it was about 40-42 seconds. So I had a playing lesson where he looked at his watch as soon as I was standing behind the ball and it was my turn to hit. When the watch hit 16 seconds he'd say "Too long!" and I had to back off and try it again faster. When you're used to 45 seconds, it's a long way down to under 20 seconds. I actually spent time practicing my routine in the back yard with my poor wife Shanghaied into calling time at 16 seconds for me.
I suspect when I play now I regularly fail that 16-second criterion but I probably keep it under 18-19 seconds most of the time. Knowing how long 45 second is, I'm quite sure that I play with people who far exceed it on every shot. Boooring!
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Did you ever stop to think... that Andy Rooney might be making a bigger impression on how we view things than we'd like to admit?
I think about it more or less constantly -- but I never stop to think it.
That would slow down play.
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... soup to nuts ...
This topic is prime for a thread-jack so here goes ... I former boss of mine, who grew up in Detroit, used to say "soup to nuts" and when we called him on it, to explain where it came from, he couldn't provide an answer .... Shivas, care to explain?
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... soup to nuts ...
This topic is prime for a thread-jack so here goes ... I former boss of mine, who grew up in Detroit, used to say "soup to nuts" and when we called him on it, to explain where it came from, he couldn't provide an answer .... Shivas, care to explain?
From www.straightdope.com:
What's the origin of the expression, "from soup to nuts"?
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Dear Straight Dope:
Where did the phrase "soup to nuts," which I believe means from start to finish, come from? --Rich, Hebron, CT
SDSTAFF Songbird replies:
According to my Dictionary of Idioms:
From Soup to Nuts
Meaning: the whole thing from beginning to end
Origin: For centuries, any foods served at the beginning or end of a meal stood for the entire thing: the start and finish and everything in between. This expression was "from eggs to apples" and "from pottage to cheese." In the United States in the middle of the 20th century, the expression developed into "from soup to nuts." At many meals, soup is often the first course and a dessert with nuts is sometimes the last. The expression does not have to refer to only to meals, however. It could be the selection of goods for sale or classes offered.
SDSTAFF Dogster adds:
The Oxford English Dictionary gives these citations:
phrase: (from) soup to nuts (US colloq), from beginning to end, completely; everything.
1920: C Mathewson "Won in Ninth" 143: He knew the game from 'soup to nuts.'
1938: H Asbury "Sucker's Progress" 16: For many years a common expression was 'from soda to hock', meaning the whole thing, from soup to nuts.
1946: E O'Neill "Iceman Cometh" 79: I know all about that game from soup to nuts.
1964: F. O'Rourke "Mule for Marquesa" 42: 'Everything here we asked for?' 'Soup to nuts, nothing but the best.'
Not exciting. But dig a little deeper, and we find this:
Hock: In the game of faro, the last card remaining in the box after all the others have been dealt.
Soda: (paraphrasing) in the game of faro, the first card out of the box.
So, from soda to hock would be from the first card to the last card, hence, from beginning to end.
1902: H.L. Wilson "Spenders" 49: Young Bines played the deal from soda to hock.
Maybe not the answer we were looking for, but interesting anyway.
SDSTAFF Lara concludes:
I don't know if the Dictionary of Idioms explanation rings quite true for me. Desserts that contain nuts are *sometimes* served? Groan.
According to most of the British authors I read, the last course of a meal is port and nuts. But only for the men, I believe. I think the women had to go sequester themselves elsewhere and drink coffee or something until the men got tired of drinking port and joined them. Which of course begs the question, how did *that* get started? At any rate this is a British custom, and "from soup to nuts" is an American idiom. But still it seems clear that in some form or another nuts were considered the last course in a good meal, while soup was the first. And I think that covers this one from soup to nuts.
--SDSTAFF Songbird, SDSTAFF Dogster, and SDSTAFF Lara
Straight Dope Science Advisory Board
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... soup to nuts ...
This topic is prime for a thread-jack so here goes ... I former boss of mine, who grew up in Detroit, used to say "soup to nuts" and when we called him on it, to explain where it came from, he couldn't provide an answer .... Shivas, care to explain?
It's a midwest phrase...we all use it....
We don't give the CA folks too much crap (anymore) about "like..." or "and he's all..." or "and she's all..."
And all Shivas has is Medinah, so give him a break. It's bad enough you east & west coast guy do nothing but play Shinnecock, Pine Valley, NGLA, Cypress, Pebble, SFGC, OClub, etc.. ;)
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8. Posing/pained viewing of hook: 4 seconds.
[snip]
I'm telling you, the pre shot routines that are out there today thanks to that fast-play pariah Bob Rotella and all the silly TV announcers who laud slowpokes for "really taking his time on this one" are what is causing our rounds to take so fricking long.
If I include your #8 I'm probably over 20 second, too. In the playing lessons I referred to the time ended when club met ball.
I don't know that following Bob Rotella's advice inevitably leads to slow play. I know of some good players who are at least moderately fast and who follow an awful lot of what Bob Rotella or similar mental-game gurus espouse. I think what happens when a lot of people read a Bob Rotella book is that they're standing around trying to mentally check off everything in the book before they hit the shot. There's a big difference in learning to think a certain way habitually (and therefore quickly) versus thinking a certain way by reading little self-talk scripts in your mind because you haven't learned how to do it automatically. That sort of thing is called "meta-cognition" which literally means "thinking about how you're thinking".
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Dan - you da man ... ;)
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Dan Kelly
You are amazing! There may not be a dozen people on earth outside this website who know this! I can't believe I do!
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The Immaculate Heart of Mary nuns taught me that in 8th grade. Why, I don't know. I hated most of those women; in fact, I still do.
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Shivas,
I wasn't saying that the total time was too long, I was being technical to needle you... There are different things going on with each shot, and not everything is total this, boom, bang. Time goes by quicker than you think in various parts of the tee shot...and this from a self-professed quick player.
Next time you play, check out all phases and time them to see how 2:20 compares to John's figure. Just count the first 3 players.
And to all, I agree there is a fine line between playing swiftly with a good groove and rushing. That fine line often is a world of difference in the quality of my play.
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The guys who are totally out of control are the big showboat exhale huffers and puffers and, of course, the multiple full practice swing guys. Not to mention the club-shaft-line up guys (thanks Lee Janzen and Bob Tway -- as if you've ever lined up more than 2 degrees offline in your lives!!).
Inevitably, the guys who do all this crap DON'T NEED IT, and the guys who might benefit from this stuff are so bad it doesn't make a bit of difference!
I'll give you one word as the epitome to slow play golf and supports Shivas extreme opinion:
Pre-shot routine ...[/i]
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I'm only a little over half way through reading this thread, but after the second Shivas error, I had to post. :)
First of all, unless you are defining fast as under 2 hours, I have played relatively fast many times while shooting around 100. Ask JohnV. We played a course here in Pittsburgh that is a challenging walk (they have a sign requesting that people take carts on the back 9 - which we ignored). I shot 41-58 (just another day at the office for Mr. Consistency) and we finished in just under 3 hours, as I remember. There was no one in front of us and no one behind us.
The second big lie was "of course you were fricking rushing if you walked a course in 3:20." See my previous example, on a course that's not an easy walk. I didn't feel rushed at all, and in fact was somewhat astonished when we looked at the time after finishing. Unless John was magically rushing me without my knowledge, it was really quite comfortable.
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You lazy cartballers :) love to throw out the "no way anyone can play as fast walking as singles riding in carts with no one in front of them."
Of course you're right. I can't keep up with someone running either. My questions are twofold: 1) How often are you presented with this scenario? and 2) Why would you want to race around like an idiot? :)
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You lazy cartballers :) love to throw out the "no way anyone can play as fast walking as singles riding in carts with no one in front of them."
Of course you're right. I can't keep up with someone running either. My questions are twofold: 1) How often are you presented with this scenario? and 2) Why would you want to race around like an idiot? :)
Leaving your battle with shivas aside, and also disregarding the slanderous name you've called me (and others) ;), well....
George, please understand my stressing this point, over and again, is only to prove the fallacy of those who would say that walkers go faster than riders without question. It's just plain not true, as you acknowledge.
As for your questions, my answers are:
1. I've been presented with the scenario only a few times over the years, but enough to know the differences. When the need is to go extra fast, I take a cart. Thankfully that need doesn't happen very often.
2. Why would I want to race around like an idiot? Well first you assume that I'd be racing, which I wouldn't. I just would move as quickly as possible from shot to shot. But taking your question at face value, the answer is obvious: to get the most number of holes in, or make the best logistical loop to get me back to the parking lot, so that I arrive home and avoid death or castration, or worse fates. Time limits do happen, sadly enough.
But I guess this also hints at the fundamental issue we've only batted around about 5000 times previously here: I really believe that outside of VERY special courses or outings with VERY special people, I'd rather ride and hit more shots than walk and hit fewer, when I am faced with time limitations.
TH
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I've actually timed some of the people I've played with (it must be my engineering background) but didn't include the time the ball was in the air since the next player should already be walking up to the tee.
If I remember, my routine is in the 20-25 second range, maybe quicker, but the total range was from the 15 seconds up to 35, depending on the player. The 35 second time was from a notoriously slow player at our club-the funny thing that I had to play him in the club championship match play round once and we played as a twosome in under 3 1/2 hours-it's hard to believe, I know, and it was from the back tees at Lake Merced-I won the match, 3&2, and attributed the victory to not every watching him in his preshot routine.
Taking Shivas' timing a step further, if each player in the foursome takes 25 seconds per shot and shoots a 90, the total elapsed time is 2 hours and 30 minutes. If the average golf course requires a 5 mile walk, and we walk at a 3 mile per hour pace (which is pretty slow), that's another 1 hour and 40 minutes or 4 hours and 10 minutes elapsed time. Add another 20 minutes for miscellaneous stuff (like bathroom breaks, presses, kibitizing, and the like) and you have 4 hours and 30 minutes-if you lop off 40 strokes because everyone is playing pretty well or there are a bunch of gimmee putts-remember, if each of us has 9 tapins that's a total of 36 strokes off the total time. that reduces the total time by 12 minutes. So just over 4 hours seems like a very reasonable amount of time for a foursome and 3 1/2 hours seems very doable-just 5 seconds off each stroke equals 30 minutes off the round.
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But I guess this also hints at the fundamental issue we've only batted around about 5000 times previously here...
We've gotta do something to keep our posting stats up!
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2:20 (which is 46 seconds per player!! -- talk about pre-shot routines being out of control!!) would presumably take 3:05 or so if there were 4 players in the group.
3:05 multiplied by 18 holes = 55 1/2 minutes wasted fricking standing around on the tee per round!!
Anybody want to tell me that pre-shot routines aren't the problem?
PS -- and here's the funny (or should I say "sad, pathetic") part. You have "ball in hand"! The ball is on a fricking tee! You aren't analyzing your lie, you aren't getting distance to a pin, and at least half the time, you generally aren't even trying to decide on a club. And it STILL takes 45 seconds per player!
From timing players when they are on the clock I can say that the time a player takes between when they tee the ball up until they actually hit it is between 20 and 30 seconds (note, this is on a par 4 or 5 where they have a driver in their hand, no club decisions involved.) That would be from when I start the clock until contact is made. But, they also get a few seconds to tee the ball up (can't hit it until it is there so we don't time that unless they are taking an excessive amount of time.) Also, when the group reaches the tee there is usually a general mulling (putting clubs down etc) around that takes 10 or 20 seconds before that first player gets up there. Also, they usually watch where one ball goes before they tee up the next one so that at 10 seconds or so per player. In the end it adds up to about 2:20 per group.
My favorite stat is that it takes approximately 5-10 seconds to put on a golf glove. If a player does it before every full shot (assume 36 per round) each player is taking 3-6 minutes just putting on the glove! That is 9-18 minutes per group of 3 if players don't have their glove on before it is their turn to play. Which is only one of the reasons I don't wear one.
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My favorite stat is that it takes approximately 5-10 seconds to put on a golf glove. If a player does it before every full shot (assume 36 per round) each player is taking 3-6 minutes just putting on the glove! That is 9-18 minutes per group of 3 if players don't have their glove on before it is their turn to play. Which is only one of the reasons I don't wear one.
I've never figured out the glove thing. I know everyone from Jack to Tiger wears one but it still seem more like an affectation than a necessity. Anyone who can't hold onto a golf club without it slipping ought to seriously consider cleaning or changing their grips. If it's raining hard enough for my cord grips to slip in my hand then it's raining so hard that a golf glove would be soaked before I could finish one shot.
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Brent, the only time I wear a glove is if it is pouring. But, the gloves I wear are rain gloves that I bought at Bandon Dunes. The wetter they get, the better they grip and you don't have to worry about keeping your grips dry. They come as a pair so you don't even look like Michael Jackson wearing them.
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John, I have a pair of those too. They're pretty magical when it's really raining although my cord grips are a little hard on them so they would probably only last a couple rounds. Fortunately, I don't have to play more than a couple rounds a year in any serious rain.
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When did everything suddenly turn into foursomes? The statement you made was simple: you can't play fast shooting 100. My experience is otherwise. You can play fast shooting 100 and you can play slow shooting 65 (there's hours and hours of documentation of this on TV every week).
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I believe I've told this story before, but here goes.
My ex-wife and her group were the only group allowed to play as a fivesome on Saturdays at Pumpkin Ridge. She was the best golfer and couldn't break 100 in those days. Three of the five would be over 120. They had the best time of any group out there. You could hear them laughing and joking all over the course, but they played in four hours or less every week (when not held up by the group in front) and pushed the Scratch Pot game guys all around the course. Pace of play has very little to do with how many shots you take and much more with how fast you take them and how smart you are at other things like leaving your clubs in the right place etc.
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Shivas,
While I'll agree that some pre-shot routines are out of hand, I still maintain that it doesn't hold a candle to the "honor system" and just plain not being ready. You look at a slow group, and you'll see players who don't even being to do stuff like putting their glove on/taking it off, getting their club out, checking the yardage, checking the wind, checking their lie, etc. until it is their turn (and often they have to be told, "you're up") Any savings they get by having a speedy "tee in ground to ball on ground" time are lost by all that screwing around, while a mind numbingly slow guy with a 45 second "tee in ground to ball on ground" time could match them easily on a per shot basis if he's getting all that stuff out of the way first (if he's at address and ready to go when they are hitting, most of his 45 seconds can overlap with other players, except on the tee)
I think you are much more likely to find a foursome where all four guys are never ready to play and don't begin to line up their putts (from both sides) until they are away, don't get their driver out of their bag, remove the headcover, fish in their pocket for a tee, wash their ball, etc. until it is their turn, etc. than you are to find a foursome of guys who all take 45 seconds from "tee in ground to ball on ground". I'll play behind a group with one glacial preshot routine versus the equally likely group with four guys who are never ready to play. Of course nothing would be worse than four guys who take 45 seconds per shot and are never ready to play, but luckily most courses frown on six hour rounds :)
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John, it has EVERYTHING to do with how many strokes you take.
Shivas, your entire argument is based on the opposite of this statement. You just said that if we both shot 80 in the same way you'd beat me because of my 40 second preshot routine. Well, we both shot 80 so how does it have EVERYTHING to do with how many strokes I took? ???
By the way, if you leave your bag 30 yards in the wrong direction (say at the front of the green when the exit is at the back) and you have to walk back and get it and then walk back to the rear of the green, you'll have walked an extra 60 yards which will take about 36 seconds, not 10. I see guys do it all the time. They leave their shot just short of the green. They chip to the flag and walk up to mark the ball leaving the bag at the front. Then when they hole is done they remember that they have to get the bag. Doh!
The pace of play requirements, when on the clock, for the LPGA are based on the total number of strokes on the hole. You get something like 1:10 minute for 4 shots, 1:20 for 5 etc. Tap-ins don't count. But even if all three players in the group hit it 4 times on a hole and use their entire 3:30 minutes, it will take 12 or more minutes to play a par 4. 8:30 minutes are taken up in ways that have NOTHING to do with the shot at hand.
Pre-shot routines for most golfers are not that long. But, they still get behind. The get behind because they aren't ready to start their pre-shot routine when it is there turn to play or because they waste time going places they shouldn't or by telling the latest old joke on the tee or by not watching where one of the guys just hit his ball so they can't find it even though it is in plain sight in the rough or dozens of other reasons. When I play with three guys who are riding, they are amazed how easily I find their golf balls. It is because I watch and then I walk straight to the ball while they drive to another guy's ball, and then sit there while he hits and then drive over to look by which time they've lost the line of where to look. None of these things have anything to do with pre-shot routines.
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Dave, if you don't believe how fast my ex and her friends could play, ask Tommy, Craig Edgmand, Peter Pittock or jmkirk. They've all played with her and/or her friends and I think they'd confirm their speed while taking more than 100 shots. By the way, jmkirk's wife is another of these ladies and she learned very quickly how to play fast by playing with them.
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Shivas,
In response to your post #50, if you don't think a couple of guys can walk and play in less then 3, then you need to spend a liittle more time in the old country. I played 8 rounds in Scotland and the longest was 4 hours almost to the minute at TOC and Carnoustie, both 4 balls and early afternoon tee times on busy days. In the same day my buddy and I played both Turnberry and Western Gails in less then 6 hours total time golfing, both courses were fairly empty and we did not rush. We never thought about pace of play, just played the game like we always do. On Sep 23 I'm going off at Bandon at 7:30 with the same buddy, it'll be interesting to see what the pace is like at BD.
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Dave,
I'm a pretty fast golfer for the most part, but you better be on your toes if your going to keep up with John V or his ex-wife. She and her friend don't mess around and you better not slow them down.
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I used to be insanely fast, but then I discovered golfclubatlas.com..........
Now I spend at least 5 minutes on every hole (that's 6600 seconds for those of you not mathematically inclined) critiquing the architecture and/or archaeologically examining the vestiges of long lost bunkers.
Fortunately, my new 3 1/2-4 hour pace keeps me finely placed just in front of the group behind and not pressing the group ahead at my courses. It also is consonant with my incipient morbidity.
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I once played so fast that I had to play through myself . . . twice.
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Shivas,
PETARD ALERT! PETARD ALERT! PETARD ALERT! ;D ;D
Recall the fourball you, I, Paul Richards and John Lovito played at Olympia Fields early May of this year. We teed off after 4 because Paul got held up in traffic. John and I played rotten, me shooting 95 or so, John was worse, Paul went something like 47-39, and you went something like 34-47 (depending on how many you hit ob on 14). Recall how long it took? Got dark before 8, and we finished well before dark. Does that count as fast?
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I used to be insanely fast, but then I discovered golfclubatlas.com..........
Now I spend at least 5 minutes on every hole (that's 6600 seconds for those of you not mathematically inclined) critiquing the architecture and/or archaeologically examining the vestiges of long lost bunkers.
You forgot how much time GCAers take shooting pictures to post for all their geeky friends who don't get to see the latest Fazio botch at Riviera or Rees Jones containment mounts for themselves. ;D
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When is it rude to play too fast....I can't stand a single that thinks they have the right to go through every group on a course.....If you want to play in under three hours shouldn't you accept the fact you should just skip a few holes and play on the open part of the course......Doesn't every foresome playing a nice money game in under four hours have the right not to have balls landing and gay ass pirate eye stares being thrown at their backs while they try to save a whole hog sausage over a three foot putt to tie......I'd rather wait and play in 4:15 than play in 3:50 and let three twosomes go through.....rude no putt outing fast playing bastards..
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Doesn't every foresome playing a nice money game in under four hours have the right not to have balls landing and gay ass pirate eye stares being thrown at their backs while they try to save a whole hog sausage over a three foot putt to tie.
....rude no putt outing fast playing bastards..
The above is one of the great pieces of golf writing in history. I plan to use the phrase "gay ass pirate eye stares" this Sat. at the latest!
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Doesn't every foresome playing a nice money game in under four hours have the right not to have balls landing and gay ass pirate eye stares being thrown at their backs while they try to save a whole hog sausage over a three foot putt to tie......I'd rather wait and play in 4:15 than play in 3:50 and let three twosomes go through.....rude no putt outing fast playing bastards..
This has got to be one of the most disingenuous quotes of all time considering Mr. Kavanaugh was one of the foursome at Barona who, after, going out first, proceeded to play in over 5 hours, held up the entire field, and never offered to let a single group through. My guess is that the last time Mr. Kavanaugh played in under 4 hours was the last time he played only 9 holes.
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Now I spend at least 5 minutes on every hole (that's 6600 seconds for those of you not mathematically inclined) critiquing the architecture and/or archaeologically examining the vestiges of long lost bunkers.
Let's see now.
5 x 60 = 300.
300 x 18 = 5,400.
6,600 - 5,400 = 1,200
1,200/60 = 20
Just how are you spending those unaccounted-for 20 minutes, Prof. Goodale?
Hunting for Tom Paul's dog?
And they say you shouldn't trust a journalist with numbers! (Or, of course, without!)
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Dan
Good to see that at least someone is practicing their numeracy. :) My calculations were based on the old Old Course. Being the traditionalist that I am, I play all courses as if they were 22-holers. It does wonders for the handicap, too!
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Dave,
I don't know Mr. Kavanaugh but if Barney doesn't think a field of 40 people he knows in one way or another a time to be considerate of others that probably says all that needs to be said about this topic...
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Dave,
I can see you're getting pretty emotional about this but have you ever been hit, almost been hit, or seen someone else hit by a golf ball? I have, and it's an ugly sight. So I never want to be in a position where I have to think I might hit someone, so waiting until everyone has cleared the green seems to me a requirement before getting ready to hit a golf shot. I have enough uncertainty in my game so that adding the uncertainty that I could potentially hit someone just makes it a certainty that I will hit a bad shot.
Of course, if you will indemnify us from the liability incurred by hitting someone and provide pro bono defense, maybe we'd reconsider :)
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I'm with Mike on this one. I hate having a ball land on the green before everyone in my group is off, even if it's a very wide green and the pin is on the opposite side from where we're leaving.
I'll wait till the group ahead of us is well clear of the green before I hit. If we've been waiting for them while they putt, we'll catch them again on the next hole, anyway.
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Every time a pace of play thread starts, I refer to Bill ___ (I can no longer remeber his name), an expert on pace of play, who does studies, has a website, and works with courses to improve pace of play. My recollection is that his studies show that tee time spacing is one of the key elements, but I have referred to his work so many times I can't remember it anymore. I think he posted here or was discussed here a few years ago. Anybody with a better memory than I to help out on this??
Jeff Goldman
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Shivas,
Why do you think all these aspects of slow play are mutually exclusive?
We all agree that taking 5 seconds off everyone's preshot routine will reduce the time it takes to play by 30 minutes if there are a total of 360 shots made by the group.
But, like the Master Card commercial, there are other ways to save significant amounts of time:
Conceding all putts within 18 inches- 4 players x 20 seconds x 9 out of 18 holes= 12 minutes
Leaving bags behind the green so you don't have to walk to the front= 9 holes x 1 minute= 9 minutes
Not opening beer cans on the tee= 6 cans x 4 players x 10 seconds=5.67 minutes Note: Jewish foursomes don't drink beer so this isn't possible on courses such as Lake Merced, Seawane, and Quaker Ridge
Not telling stupid jokes on the tee before hitting your driver in the cabbage= 7 minutes (unless it's a good joke, then it might be 12 minutes)
Marking down an 'X' instead of walking all the way back to the tee after you've stupidly not hit a provisional and spent more than the allotted 5 minutes searching- 10 minutes
Not spending time flirting with the refhreshment cart girl-10 minutes (waived for single guys)
Not looking at every putt from all conceivable angles after it's already your turn- 15 minutes (or much more)
Playing in a fourball in under 3 1/2 hours and having a great time while doing it....PRICELESS
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"Bill really does get to the heart of the matter."
Bob Huntley:
I hadn't read this thread but this is what you said in the initial post!!! Are you talking about Bill Vostinak?? If so, I can't believe a discerning man such as yourself could ever say such a thing about Bill Vostinak! He may get to the heart of the matter but it's always some matter that's anything but the matter at hand being discussed. I think Bill Vostinak's middle name has to be Nonsequitor! ;)
Fastest player ever? It might be one Goose Clement, a past president of my own Gulph Mills G.C. Goose, a great athlete and runner played GMGC hitting every shot and holing everything out in something like 38 minutes!!! Maybe it was even less. I think he might have been trying for a world record and may have done it. Of course it did take some logistical planning like handing him clubs on the fly and stuff like that!
This was apparently in connection with his good friend and compatriot Russell Etherington, another past president of GMGC who when younger must have felt somewhat closeted by NYC when he lived and worked there as he designed these golf games teeing off within his apartment, then out the door, down the hall, into the elevator, around the lobby, out into the street, perhaps a couple of loops around Times Square or some other similar NYC geography and then back again eventually ending up back in his apartment.
There're many members of my club who, although great fun are simply not normal!!
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There're many members of my club who, although great fun are simply not normal!!
Hmmmmm. This is triggering a synapse in my brain. but I just can't quite figure out what or whom it might be referring to..........
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Shivas, endless preshot routines definitely slow things up, but I see them more as a symptom than a cause. Fast or slow, pace is a state of mind.
Faster players generally realize that a brisk pace as an integral part of enjoyable golf. Plus they are polite enough to try to avoid inconveniencing their fellow golfers. So they dont develop inordinately long preshot routines.
In contrast, slow players paid there money and will play at whatever pace they like. Never mind the 160+ golfers who may be waiting on them.
For a good indication of who plays fast and slow, hang out in the full parking lot of a crowded course. When someone is waiting for their parking spot, a fast player will get done what he has to get done (shoes off, bag in, etc.) and then get out of the way. Not hurrying but not wasting time either. In contrast, a slow player will somehow manage to take even longer than he usually would to exit the space, as if to prove that they are in charge and will act when they damn well please.
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I do agree with one point though, we all think we are faster than we are. After I recently commented on our recent slower rounds a few regular playing partners said that one of the reasons we were playing slower than usual was that I was hitting more shots and spending more time looking for more balls (my game is Duvalling.) On reflection I realized they were likely correct. Not much immediate I could do about the number of shots (I tried to move to up tees but to no success) but I did swear off playing any ball which cost over $20 a dozen until my game improved. My game hasnt improved much but my pace has.
My point? We could all probably use a little critical self-evaluation when it comes to pace issues.
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All the stuff Mike G. mentioned SOMETIMES impacts pace of play. SOMETIMES you have to look for a ball. SOMETIMES someone gets on a good joke roll and you slow up to listen. SOMETIMES people leave bags in the wrong place. SOMETIMES people putt out everything and never give a thing. SOMETIMES people run to get a beer, flirt with the cart girl, and then proceed to make a 12 and hole out instead of taking X. SOMETIMES courses are set up hard, the rough is long, the pins are tough or whatever.
And yet, SOMETIMES seems to be all the time for most players. Everybody does something every now and then, sure, but most do all of this all the time. Preshot routine certainly adds as much as anything, but by and large, pace of play is a state of mind.
A gentle reminder from rangers on a course would go a long way toward improving everyone's experience. Unfortunately, in today's golf climate, there seems to be a fear that asking someone to keep up is tantamount to calling them the biggest lying scumbag racist sexist homophobic elitist piece of crap that ever walked the earth. I'd welcome a ranger's prod if he was applying it to everyone else as well. (Don't take that in any illicit manner.... :))
Have a good weekend everyone - I'm praying for no rain here in the Burgh.
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Shiv,
I'll save you from having to get up early tomorrow, here's a summary of one of my foursomes from Lake Merced in a microcosm of the global population of players:
MG-5-6 handicap, walks fast, preshot routine 20-25 seconds
AF-5 handicap, walks pretty fast (he's 71 years old, preshot routine 15 seconds (maximum)
BG-3-4 handicap, walks reasonably fast, preshot routine about the same as mine
JB, 5-6 handicap, walks average, preshot routine 35-40 seconds
AF and I could easily play 18 holes in about 3 hours. :)
BG and I could play 18 in just over 3 hours :D
AF, BG, and I could play 18 in 3 1/2 hours easily ;D
The four of us had a tough time playing in under 4 hours, 20 minutes-all because of JB-it just slows the entire group up significantly, more than you would think. ???
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Shivas, I dont think anyone is discounting preshot routines as a major pace killer. There is just more to it. If you barred anything but a walk up and hit, many would still take 5 hours. See my post at the bottom of last page.
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Shivas, if anyone takes 40 seconds on a 6 inch tap in they deserve to be shot. Take out 12 to 18 short puts per person per group from you calculations.
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DMoriarty writes:
My point? We could all probably use a little critical self-evaluation when it comes to pace issues.
Amen, Brother Dave.
I used to think I was a fast golfer. Then I played with people like Mike Golden, BillV, JohnVB and Rich Goodale and realized I could be faster. I realized my walk had slowed down considerably. I was at one time a fast walker, but I slowed down my pace so I wouldn't spend so much time waiting at my golf ball. I've also gotten fatter and am working on improving there.
I also started carrying much fewer than 14 clubs. The number of clubs really slows down the pace of play. I play much faster because I don't need nearly as much yardage and much less time deciding do I hit a 5-iron or a 6-iron, etc...
I've also eliminated my pre-shot routine completely. I get up to the ball and hit it. No waggle, no practice swings, nothing, just hit the damn ball, go find it, hit it again.
I agree with Shivas that these pre-shot routines is one of the big reasons why 18 holes takes about twice as long as it did some 50-75 years ago.
One thing to note in the argument between fast and slow players. Slow players generally force the world to play at their pace since there is no way they ever let people play through. Fast golfers do not force slower golfers to change. If slower golfers would learn to step aside and let fast golfers through then both sets could live in the world together.
Dan King
Something very drastic ought to have been done years and years ago. Golf courses are becoming far to long. Twenty years ago we played three rounds of golf a day and considered we had taken an interminably long time if we took more than two hours to play a round. Today it's not infrequently takes over three hours.
--Alister MacKenzie
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Our threesome played today in 3:30 only because the foursome of knuckleheads made us wait on every frickin' shot with two holes open ahead of them. Methinks that their pace was probably acceptable, but blame the USGA for putting in the rule book that foursomes have right of way over three etc and so on and so on. Bro' John, I never got that one.......
Hell, I had time to stretch 15 times and do exercises for my back 10.
p.s. Tom Paul, it's not me with the website on slow play. ;) I am however passionate about it.
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If the 4-ball in front of you also played in 3:30, that's pretty fast (even for a guy like me used to Scottish golf). Maybe you need to stop and smell the flowers a bit more......
As for the USGA, you are giving your separated-at-birth twin too much grief. To my knowledge, the Rules never said anything about letting people through except to do so if there was space ahead of you and you were being pressed. There used to be a clause to the effect of "Single players have no standing on the course," but this was eliminated last year.
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Our threesome played today in 3:30 only because the foursome of knuckleheads made us wait on every frickin' shot with two holes open ahead of them. Methinks that their pace was probably acceptable, but blame the USGA for putting in the rule book that foursomes have right of way over three etc and so on and so on. Bro' John, I never got that one.......
Hell, I had time to stretch 15 times and do exercises for my back 10.
p.s. Tom Paul, it's not me with the website on slow play. ;) I am however passionate about it.
Bill, you need a new rule book. That is no longer in there. Pace of play section in Etiquette in 2004 now reads:
"It is a group's responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group."
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Shivas,
I don't know what sort of drugs you have started taking the last few days, but they seem to have some side effects making you stressed out and obsessed with this issue ;D
You can do math all you want but your arguments just don't hold water. As John Vander Borght points out, long preshot routines don't occur on the short putts. The post someone else made about "gimmes" for 18 inch putts saving so much time was laughable, because me and most people I know just walk up and slap those in, unless it is exactly 18 inches and a downhill sidehill putt on a green that stimps 11. My dad and his friends play "inside the leather" gimmes but any time they save by doing that is lost when 4-5 times a round they have to lay the putter down on the green to verify it (and one guy's putter has a 1" longer in the leather zone so if its close they want to reverify with that one!) Arguments over whether a putt is X inches is always going to be the downfall of any system designed to "save" time via gimmes. It is just a crutch for people with the yips.
The people who take three practice swings, lots of waggles and all that annoying stuff rarely do so on short pitches or chips, either, so I don't think it is as simple as "you shoot 85, so it is 85 * 40 seconds" Even players who take a lot of time before their first putt will rarely take as much time on the second. Even someone who absolutely HAS to line up every putt from both sides will take much less time on a 4-5 foot second putt, simply because there is less walking involved than the 40 footer before it!
I still think more of the slowness of slow groups is due to lack of being ready when it is a player's turn than anything to do with excessive preshot routines. You go watch the PGA players play in person sometime and bring a stopwatch and follow a few players for a few holes and I'll bet you Pebble Beach greens fees for two that you end up totalling more time in the "its his turn to hit but he hasn't yet started his preshot routine" stage than the actual "preshot routine to contact" stage. Amateurs can be worse because of all the other ways there are to waste time when they should be playing.
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My personal best is 1:25 walking a spread out, housing development course as the only one out there on Mother's Day, circa 1997.
I could probably play better if I played slower, but I wouldn't enjoy it as much.
What's a practice swing? I find myself physically cringing if I see someone taking one on any shot but the first of the day.
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Shivas writes:
Good Lord, the more I talk about pre-shot routines as THE main cuprit, the more I get the sense that the pre-shot routine is some sacred third-rail of pace of play discussions -- you just aren't allowed to talk about them.
You've sold me. I believe you are right.
I have countless friends who only know one pace. That is because the golf mags have told them to develop a pre-shot routine and stick with it no matter what. If we fall behind because of one of these numerous other reasons they are clueless on how to pick up the pace because they have been conditioned not to change their pre-shot routine.
The beauty of having almost no pre-shot routine is that I can play at a variety of different paces. The other guys can pick up their walking speed, but then we get to our golf balls and the whole thing screeches to a halt while they grip, re-grip, line-up, waggle, re-line-up, re-grip, etc...
There faster walking pace has done almost nothing to close the gap between them and the group ahead because while they are doing their crazy-ass waggle nothing else can go on around them.
And I've seen plenty of people take their whole pre-shot routine on those 18 inch putts. Again, it is what they've been told to do and as lemmings, they are going to do it. The big concern is I'm seeing it more often than ever.
Dan King
If four players are ranged in line across a wide fairway there in no earthly reason why each of them should not be calculating the shot, selecting a club and taking up a stance more or less simultaneously. The setting up of a golf shot can be as ponderous as the loading of a Roman siege catapult, with interminable adjustments to range and aim before finally the carcass of a dead horse is hoisted into the middle launcher. Lobbing four dead horses over the parapet takes an age, which is how it works in golf if three crews of loaders and launchers sit down and watch while the fourth goes into action.
--Peter Dobereiner
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I could not disagree more. When it is your turn to play, you have a set time to play. If you want to use your 45 seconds, looking at your bag then it is your right. Being ready to play is the problem... not the waggles!
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George Holland writes:
When it is your turn to play, you have a set time to play. If you want to use your 45 seconds, looking at your bag then it is your right.
What do you mean your right? Is this some sort of inalienable right?
Sure, go ahead and take 45 seconds to make your shot. It's rude and obnoxious but hey, it is your right to be rude and obnoxious.
Being ready to play is the problem... not the waggles!
You can be ready to play and then not pull the trigger for 45 seconds? I'm confused how being ready is the key when people have to hang around and wait for you anyway, even though you were ready 45 seconds ago. It's a bizarre sort of theory, but as long as you feel you have a right to your bizarreness... Is that something like temporary insanity in a murder case? The murder victim is still dead but at least the murderer didn't have poor intentions.
Dan King
There is not the slightest doubt in my own mind that golf as played in the United States is the slowest in the world.
--Henry Longhurst
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Dan King,
You have it it on the head. Forget about the guy 70 yards across the fairway being two feet behind you; when you get to your ball hit it.
We play Wolf with fivesomes and call it ready golf. We catch up with two-balls at times.
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I'm old enough to remember going round TOC in the 70s and 80s with my brother-in-law in 1 hr 35 to 1 hr 55 regularly. We were there annually for a number of years around Easter. There were almost no tourists in those days. You didn't need to bother with the ballot at that time of year. Green fees, as I remember, were about £15 a round - they never exceeded £20. My brother-in-law thought these excessive, having played there as an undergraduate for the equivalent of a Dunlop 65 per round plus the annual sub of £5 as a University member. You stepped off one green onto the next tee. There was very little punitive rough. Even if you made a hash of things you were not lost, merely marking down a 12!
Some years ago I visited all 83 courses then extant in Cheshire in pursuit of a book. I went to each course at about 6.00 or 6.30 am and knew I could still be at work by 9.30 even though some of the courses were 45 miles distant. One player on his own (I was then rather more able than now) can go round a course very quickly, yet they have no status - on these shores at least.
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George Holland --
I really think you need to reconsider. 45 seconds is an eternity -- and it is a totally arbitrary number that bears no relevance to proper pace on a busy golf course.
I played this morning in a mixed foursome. As we completed our front nine (in a leisurely 1:45), I noticed a guy practicing on the driving range. He looked like a pretty good player from his setup, and I like watching good swings, so I stopped to observe him. I waited for him to swing...and waited...and waited. I found myself saying out loud, "come on, hit the damn ball," to a guy on the driving range.
When I got to the 10th tee, which is parallel to our range, I decided to time the guy to see if his slow trigger was just a one-time thing, or a habit. I counted 20 seconds from the time he first set the club behind the ball until he hit his next practice shot -- and that doesn't count the 10 seconds or so it took him to sidle up to the ball and begin his launch sequence.
There's no way this guy could be hitting his ball any more quickly on the course than he does on the range, and if he's hitting his ball this slowly on the course, he's a disaster for everyone else. There's simply no excuse for taking that long to swing the club. Twenty to 30 seconds is excruciating; 45 seconds is an eternity.
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This Saturday I played nine in the morning and then attended a golf clinic during the middle part of the day. After lunch several of us went out for another nine and I was in a threesome with my teaching pro and one of his other students.
This poor guy had a swing lesson that morning and you could just see the gears grinding as he froze over the ball for an eternity. Somehow all the unprocessed stuff in his brain from the lesson combined with knowing the pro was watching was about to give him a stroke. It was torture to watch.
After the fourth hole the pro told him to just step up and hit the damned ball and quit trying to think about it. The next tee shot was a Par 3 and he just stepped up, gave it a whack and stuffed it in there about about five feet with an 8-iron. From then on he played quicker and he played bogey golf.
I find that playing with the pro watching speeds me up since I don't want to look like a hacker. I try to just hustle up there and let it rip pretending like I know what I'm doing. Of course I know from past experience that if I take too long this pro will give me "feedback" about it after the round.
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Quote:
"Doesn't every foresome playing a nice money game in under four hours have the right not to have balls landing and gay ass pirate eye stares being thrown at their backs while they try to save a whole hog sausage over a three foot putt to tie......I'd rather wait and play in 4:15 than play in 3:50 and let three twosomes go through.....rude no putt outing fast playing bastards.." John Kavanaugh.
Mike Golden responds:
"This has got to be one of the most disingenuous quotes of all time considering Mr. Kavanaugh was one of the foursome at Barona who, after, going out first, proceeded to play in over 5 hours, held up the entire field, and never offered to let a single group through. My guess is that the last time Mr. Kavanaugh played in under 4 hours was the last time he played only 9 holes."
I have no major quarrel on the issue of fast play with either gentlemen, assuming that I am understanding John's unique prose. However, being in the foursome with John in the cited Barona outing, I am compelled to correct the record.
Mr. Kavanaugh was not scheduled to play in the group. A certain other GCA celebrity was, but for some unknown reason, did not wish to play me. The organizers scrambled to find another opponent, and JK agreed to be moved up. We teed off well over 15 minutes late due to the confusion, and the fact that many of the event's participants were in no condition to tee off before noon, not to say anything about dawn.
We did play excruciatingly slow, but well under 5 hours. John and I had a tight match all the way to the end, and I was as responsible as anyone for the pace of play. BTW, John and I were two of the very few walkers that day.
We did not let any groups go through for one simple reason: with the exception of two or three times for a couple of minutes, we had no one pressing us. In fact, behind the next group, there was often one or more holes completely open. I hate holding people up, and have no qualms about letting faster players through.
BTW, it took over 6 hours to play the prior day's afternoon round; possibly an indication that the course itself may have a bit to do with the pace of play.
Most slow players do not realize that they are slow. They should be politely helped.
Many fast players do not have the empathy and sympathy for people who were not weaned on a wedge and find golf to be a very difficult sport. Perhaps not all golfers see a Track & Field influence in the game.
A large number of courses have pace of play objectives including the average acceptable time of a round. At my home course, you are expected to play in under four hours, but I can comfortably get around in 3 hours with a fast group. We have riding fivesomes playing $60/$40 wolf in under 3 hours, and dollar games which go on and on.
Since we all feel that ours is the correct pace and everyone else is either too slow or too fast, what are we to do about it? On the freeway we weave in and out of traffic, blast the horn, and pop the finger. In golf, this is just not polite, and besides, there is not enough metal and speed to avoid the repercussions of our rude behavior.
One possible solution is to be more tolerant of others and do the right things- speed up play to a "reasonable" level and/or allow faster players through. Another, under the the golf is a big tent concept, is to play with people we are more compatible with and encourage the pro shop to set and enforce time guidelines which make sense for the course and clientele. At private clubs, the management with the backing of the appropriate committees can institute tee time policies which in essence allow faster players to get out there and get finished before the slow pokes get to the course.
The ultimate is to join a club with 200 national members and have the place to yourself. I've never tried it, but I suspect that with a cart, I could play 18 holes in an hour putting everything out and still shoot 100. But is that what golf is all about?
Must everything be done at top speed to reinforce our type A personalities? I thought that golf was about "... going into God's out-of-doors, getting close to nature, fresh air, exercise, a sweeping away of the mental cobwebs, genuine recreation of tired tissues." And ".... a cure for care- an antidote to worry. It includes companionship with friends, social intercourse, opportunity for courtesy, kindliness and generosity to an opponent."
BTW, the KPI at Barona was a resounding success despite the slow play. I too wish that we would have played faster, but unlike others on this site, my idea of enjoyable golf is not playing The Old Course in under two hours. I suppose that we could modernize the game to reflect the times even more and erect a scoreboard on each hole complete with a shot clock. But, for some reason, that just doesn't appeal to me.
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And your conflict is a good one, shivas. Tell me that wasn't a quality 5.5 hours or whatever it took for us to get those W's that fateful afternoon at Barona.
;)
But you make a good point - that has to be a very rare exception where a slow round was enjoyable.
So just be careful using it as an example, that's all!
TH
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Shivas, Post Shot Routines are annoying. Not so much on the tee, but in the fairway if the group behind is waiting. Similar to people who take a couple of practice putts after missing the 4 footer for double bogey while I'm standing there waiting to hit. Thank goodness the tour bans that (except at the match play and the US Open).
Most of the time the pros know they'll be waiting when they get to the ball for the glacial group in front of them to move so they aren't worried about their Post shot routines.
I'm hoping to get the chance to do some more time studies at the US Mid-Am Qualifier and our Four-Ball championship over the next couple of weeks. I wish I hadn't thrown out my papers from my days on the Futures Tour.