Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group => Topic started by: Mark_Fine on July 31, 2004, 11:07:11 AM
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I don't like cart ball and much prefer walking but I'm not so sure a course that is not walkable is automatically a bad routing (for the given property). Unfortunately, very few times do golfers have any idea what caused the holes to be laid out in the manner they are. I think that is worth keeping that in mind before dissing a course's routing because it is not walkable. The Plantation Course is just one example. Is that a bad routing?
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MF
I think an important question to ask is "is it better to build a hole with close green/tee connections regardless of the quality of the hole, or is it better to build the best golf holes even if the connections are not close/good. All just for the sake of walking less.
Some sites are just so demanding that if close connections is the most important priority, the resulting golf holes are just ridiculous.
I vote for the best golf holes even if the walk is further than we all would like. All sites are not created equal.
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I agree with the comments. I'm just always surprised how many guys immediately discount a routing "just because it is not walkable". No question the architect has to live with what gets built because his name is on it. But there are times that they were forced to do what they did for reasons outside their control. Other times, its just how the routing came out on their CAD system and they didn't bother to change it ;)
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I can think of a dozen courses that are not walkable because of extreme terrain. Trying to maximize the experience is a negative if they give up on walking but its not the end of the world, especially resort type golf.
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It's a slippery slope.
The 'build the best hole' cart-balling-vision-quest has bastardized the more subtle and demanding 'find the best course' walkabout. And golf architecture is further perverted.
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Mark_Fine writes:
I'm not so sure a course that is not walkable is automatically a bad routing (for the given property).
Of course it is. What is routing, but the fitting together of the holes. If they are spread all over hell and back then was the course really routed, or was just the best 18 spots for golf holes chosen? What does it mean to route a course when you only need to lay tons of cart path between holes?
Unfortunately, very few times do golfers have any idea what caused the holes to be laid out in the manner they are. I think that is worth keeping that in mind before dissing a course's routing because it is not walkable.
Why should I give a damn about the problems of the architect? If the course is crap I don’t need to make the slightest concession for why it is crap. I can diss it for it’s crappiness all I want and feel fine about myself.
The Plantation Course is just one example. Is that a bad routing?
Yep.
Not every property in the world should be eligible for a golf course.
Dan King
"Often it is necessary to get from one section to another over ground which is not suited to easy construction, but that troublesome hole must be made to stand right up with the others. If it has nothing about it that might make it respectable, it has to have quality knocked into it until it can hold its head up in polite society."
--A.W. Tillinghast
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Dan,
Nice quote from Tillinghast. Problem with it is that it can cost millions of dollars at times "to knock it into shape" and guess who ends of paying for it? Sometimes the best thing to do is save the cash and re-route the course.
Your definition of a routing is a little light but then again most golfers don't have any idea what it is.
Of course you can diss a course for what ever reason you like, why be different than anyone else. However, it's those educated complaints that are the most interesting to listen to and potentially learn from.
But what do I know, I think the Plantation course is outstanding (routing and all).
Mark
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Mark_Fine writes:
Problem with it is that it can cost millions of dollars at times "to knock it into shape" and guess who ends of paying for it? Sometimes the best thing to do is save the cash and re-route the course.
Then maybe it isn’t a good spot for a golf course. I know it’s an old-fashion idea, but at one time not every piece of land a developer wanted to turn into a golf course merited the effort.
Your definition of a routing is a little light but then again most golfers don't have any idea what it is.
Oh Fine one please enlighten me.
However, it's those educated complaints that are the most interesting to listen to and potentially learn from.
I feel so deeply wounded.
But what do I know, I think the Plantation course is outstanding (routing and all).
Glad you clarified. Since you are impressed by Plantation’s routing I only need to consider the source of the insults and I no longer feel deeply wounded.
Dan King
Excessive golfing dwarfs the intellect. Nor is this to be wondered at when we consider that the more fatuously vacant the mind is, the better for play. It has been observed that absolute idiots play the steadiest.
--Sir Walter Simpson (The Art of Golf)
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Dan,
The more I think about it, you are correct - you should not build a golf course if it is not walkable. And if you can't build a great one, don't even bother trying to make it walkable and wasting your time.
I've just been educated, thanks.
Mark
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The more I think about it, I wish I had known a few weeks ago about not building a golf course if you can't make it walkable. I played French Creek with Gil Hanse and I could have told him he wasted his time designing the course. Bill you could have told Kelly the same thing!
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Those of you who hate courses that are not walkable, shouldn't play them.
You guys probably don't like skyscrapers because they have elevators and prefer stairs.
I enjoy walkable golf courses as much as the next guy but...
The golf cart has allowed architects to build wonderful, creative, and sometimes brilliant courses that the rest of us can enjoy.
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Cary,
You are making sense. Please stop!
Mark
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Mark_Fine writes:
The more I think about it, you are correct - you should not build a golf course if it is not walkable.
Glad I could help.
And if you can't build a great one, don't even bother trying to make it walkable and wasting your time.
I've just been educated, thanks.
Huh? Looks like you are being educated by someone other than me.
cary lichtenstein writes:
Those of you who hate courses that are not walkable, shouldn't play them.
I don’t.
But the subject was routing. Please explain how you can have a good routing on a cart-ball track. What’s the point? Why not just take a big piece of land and find the best 18 holes. Why bother with routing?
The golf cart has allowed architects to build wonderful, creative, and sometimes brilliant courses that the rest of us can enjoy.
No they have not. It’s allowed them to build cart-ball tracks. They can hardly be called golf courses.
Dan King
Maybe it's time to propose that golfers refuse to play courses where they are forced to ride. Now this idea has absolutely no chance of gaining ground because a generation of golfers is being raised who think that walking is the oddity. They'll read in some old golf magazine that former USGA president Sandy Tatum once called golf by cart "cart-ball." And they will think, "who was that old fogy anyway?"
--Lorne Rubenstein
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Dan:
Some of the hillier, more severe properties just can't be routed to both allow walking and take advantage of what can be the best holes.
If a property highest and best use as a golf course, is 18 great holes that can only be accessed by a golf cart, then I am all for it.
But, each to their own. I'd don't expect to change anyone's mind, but just to appreciate there are more ways to cut a cake.
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Dan,
Nice quote from Tillinghast. Problem with it is that it can cost millions of dollars at times "to knock it into shape" and guess who ends of paying for it? Sometimes the best thing to do is save the cash and re-route the course.
Why do I think that this generally does not hold true? Which generally cost more to build, walking courses or cart ball courses?
Your definition of a routing is a little light but then again most golfers don't have any idea what it is.
Of course you can diss a course for what ever reason you like, why be different than anyone else. However, it's those educated complaints that are the most interesting to listen to and potentially learn from.
This is what I love about GCA . . . start a thread, then condescend and insult those who disagree with you . . . What exactly were you looking for here, some pats on the back? As for the content, I wonder of those who routed (route) courses as Dan described didnt "have any idea" either.
But what do I know, I think the Plantation course is outstanding (routing and all).
Plantation used to be one of my favorite courses. I was there last fall, and I've got to admit I was extremely disappointed with the unwalkability. Without a doubt is greatly lessens the experience. Is it a good routing? Only relative to the difficult piece of land. In my book it just cannot compare as a golfing experience to the great acheivements on better land.
Cary,
Unfortunately, it is not as easy as 'to each his own.' With a landscape of cart ball courses where should we walkers play? Architects think cart ball courses are just as good, and developers love to try to make money off carts. It ceases to be a matter of choice when the golfer's laziness and the developer's greediness deprives the real golfer's options.
Went to see a new course near LA . . . asked the "management consultant" if the course was walkable. "Definitely it was . . . or would have been . . . except that carts were required."
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Dmoriarty,
Dan said "What is routing but fitting together of the holes". I happen to think routing is a little more than that. Heck some guy I know wrote a 500 page book on the subject.
Dan said "Why should I give a damn about the problems of the architect? If the course is crap I don’t need to make the slightest concession for why it is crap. I can diss it for it’s crappiness all I want and feel fine about myself." If you think that is a good response fine. It basically confirms my point that some people feel if the course is not walkable it is a bad routing regardless of what the architect did with the property and resources he had at hand.
Are you suggesting that C&C didn't have a clue what a good routing was when they built the Plantation Course? Same goes for Gil Hanse at French Creek and Kelly Moran at Morgan Hill. If they did have a clue then why did they build what they built?
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By the way - truce guys! I would like to continue the discussion but I will be out of Internet range for a few days. Cary, please take over from here ;D
Take care,
Mark
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Mark Fine writes:
Dan said "Why should I give a damn about the problems of the architect? If the course is crap I don’t need to make the slightest concession for why it is crap. I can diss it for it’s crappiness all I want and feel fine about myself."
I was responding to your comment:
Unfortunately, very few times do golfers have any idea what caused the holes to be laid out in the manner they are. I think that is worth keeping that in mind before dissing a course's routing because it is not walkable.
When judging a course I don’t see any reason why I have to care about the difficulty the architect or developer had to go through. All I care about is the final product.
If I eat a crappy meal in a restaurant why would I need to care if the chef isn’t able to get fresh produce or some of his kitchen staff quit that morning. The only concern is if the result is good not what kind of effort the staff went through to deliver the crappy meal.
If you think that is a good response fine. It basically confirms my point that some people feel if the course is not walkable it is a bad routing regardless of what the architect did with the property and resources he had at hand.
Of course it is a bad routing. I can’t walk it can I?
There are certain requirements to building a golf course. I think holes are very important. You can build a nice place for playing golf shots and finish with a bunch of clown mouths but you aren’t going to get me to compare it to people who build golf courses. I don’t care how tough it was for them to punch holes in the earth -- it is still lacking.
There is no reason someone can’t build a place to play golf that has no grass. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be built I’m just saying when someone asks me what I think I’m going to say it doesn’t measure up because it lacks grass. I don’t give a damn how-lip smacking good each individual hole is, if there is no grass then I think that deserves pointing out.
Tell me all the horror stories they had trying to grow real grass and I still won’t care. Tell me all about how they lacked resources, couldn’t afford grass seed or whatever. If there is no grass it ain’t a golf course.
Dan King
Oh golf is for smellin' heather and cut grass and walkin fast across the countryside and feelin' the wind and watchin' the sun go down and seein' yer friends hit good shots and hittin' some yerself. It's love and feelin' the splendor o' the good world.
--Agatha McNaughton (Golf in the Kingdom)
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Well, there are probably a lot of really great walkable courses that would be better if they were spread out to 2x or 4x the land with occasional 1/3 mile slogs between holes over the less desireable land.
I don't think its unreasonable to suggest that you'd have a better 18 holes making up TOC if it was designed as a cart ball course and thus originally stretched twice as far as it now does. Heck, maybe the best TOC would play way afield, then have long drives to get back to the current 11th, 12th, 14th, 16th and the finisher, 17. Then you drive from the Road hole 400 yards back to the clubhouse.
TOC wouldn't be what it is if you didn't walk it, and definitely wouldn't be what it is if you COULDN'T walk it, even if some of the individual holes were improved by increasing the amount of land the holes could have been "found" upon.
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Wow, Dan
The Plantation course is bad routing? Because its not walkable?
Wait, it is walkable. Long walks perhaps, but then, isn't that what golf is, or should be? One long walk, with intermittent stops to hit the ball?
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If you want to see a travesty of cart-based routing, look no further than Rees Jones's Tattersall in West Chester, PA. This is the most unwalkable course I've ever come across.
It's about a 3/4 mile "walk" back to the clubhouse from the 18th green. The 10th hole requires a cart drive from the green back to the tee and then back to the green again. I wonder how many golfers have been hit driving into tee shots?
And the elevation changes aren't well accomplished, IMHO. This is Chester County, PA after all - not the Rockies!
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Another newish Philly area course that's not walkable is Hurdzan and Fry's Fieldstone. It's so unwalkable that, at a walking-only major tournament a few years ago, carts were provided for trips between some greens and tees. And it's an upscale private club in an area where caddies are the norm. I think an unwalkable course is more forgiveable at a daily fee course (Tattersoll), where it's pretty much all cart play anyway.
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Andy Hodson writes:
Wow, Dan
The Plantation course is bad routing?
Yep.
Because its not walkable?
Exactly.
Wait, it is walkable. Long walks perhaps
The PGA Tour® doesn't even try to walk it. They shuttle players between some holes and even up one or two of the fairways. This came up when the PGA Tour® was fighting Casey Martin in court.
but then, isn't that what golf is, or should be? One long walk, with intermittent stops to hit the ball?
There's a big difference between walking between shots on a hole and forced marches between holes. Even some of those, such as the hike up the hill at Cruden Bay, doesn't detract from the round. But when they are too many with minimal reward after the hike they really ruin the flow of the round and they become unwalkable.
Bill Schulz writes:
In my opinion, this magical aura can only be achieved on walkable layouts.
Amen brother.
Dan King
Ye see, tha' man got to be famous heer for his walkin'. Twas said tha' if ye played along wi' him for very long ye'd get the spirit o' it yersel' and learn to enjoy each and every step. 'Twas said tha' he sometimes forgot his shots, the walkin' got to be so good. Had to be reminded by his caddie to hit the ball.
--Shivas Irons (Golf in the Kingdom)
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Mark Fine, I think I understood Dan's points and your responses the first time around. Even with your further explanations, I am still with Dan on this one, except perhaps for the matter of degree.
It doesnt surprise me that some guy wrote a big book on routing. On the contrary, it reinforces by belief that it is actually many of the contemporary designers who don't know much about routing.
Are you suggesting that C&C didn't have a clue what a good routing was when they built the Plantation Course?
I never came close to suggesting that CC "didnt have a clue" when they routed Plantation. Not even close.
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I think we have a fundamental difference in perspective here . . . I think Dan and I evaluate golf courses from the point of view of golfers looking for an authentic golfing experience. Absurd treks between holes and manditory/ necessary carts severely diminish that experience. (Dan would likely take this further and say carts totally ruin the experience.)
I can appreciate the brilliance of what CC did on Maui. But the tough routing and carts substantially detract from the golfing experience. Kapalua Plantation may be Cart Ball at its best, but Cart Ball isn't half the game as Golf.
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I can see the future, and it is......Limo Golf!
Before teeing off at Serendipity Hills, you are introduced to your personal caddy and your limo driver. The tee is elevated, and the hole turns seamlessly with the land, gently to the right. The caddy hands you your driver, you manage to play the required power fade to position A, and you two walk down the exquisitely and tastefully designed golf hole with only the birds, your fellow competitors and their caddies for company. The hole is a blatant tribute to the 1st at Shinnecock, but at 472, more in tune with the modern game.
After a satisfying par, you step back into the strectch limo, whilst your caddy and the clubs go into a modified "rumble seat" in the back. You drive for 3-5 minutes on the peaceful roads of Serendipity Estates, a gated community with 2-acre zoning, where every property looks like Beaver Cleaver's house on designer steroids. You sip champagne and watch the videos of your shots on the last hole.
A mile or two later, you turn down a secluded lane and arrive at the 2nd tee. Your caddy jumps out with your bag and hands you your 3-iron. It is a reverse Redan that even CB McDonald would be proud of that fits the lie of the land like a glove. You wait for the lone deer to cross the hitting zone before playing, and then hit a solid shot that unforturnately does not cut and leaves you with an awkward chip from the left side up onto the green and then down the hill. Despite a good chip and a solidly struck 12-foot putt, you get 4. Before you get back into the limo, your caddy hands you the video clip from the last hole. "Pro," he says. "I think you're not getting the proper weight shift on those long irons. Try to hit through them a bit more."
You get in the limo, load the video, add a bit of peach schnapps to your Cristal and try to work out the minor flaws in your swing. Fortunately, the drive between #2 and #3 at SH is a long one, as it travels through the "Billionaries Row" subdivision. All you can see are trees and iron gates and the occasional domestic servant driving by in their Lexus on the way to work. You need a special permit to drive or walk or bicycle on these roads, but fortunately the security tags on your limo are up to date and you are waved through every 400 meters or so by the electronic guards.
Arriving on the 3rd tee, you can see why VGCA (Virtual Golf Club Atlas) praised this as "One of the finest and most original golf holes ever "found" by enhanced GPS." It is the site of an old Native American burial ground which the developer traded for some flatland 20 miles away (discretely hidden behind the 15th of SH) where the Sitting Bulls' Revenge Casino complex built and owned by the Fugawee tribe now resides. The hole is a 747 yard hole called "Holy Jumbo!" It twists and turns with the land and the burial mounds and Cooreshaw's Creek, around and then up Hacker's HIll to a green site which the Fugawees until recently considered to be the most sacred land on earth. Sernedipity Hills respects this history by REQUIRING a lift, clean and drop under Rule 25 for any ball interfered with by an exposed bone or other artefact. While it is said that Michelle Wie once reached this green in 2, most mortals must rely on a solid 300 yard lay up left of the first burial mound. A full throttle 300 yard 3 wood uphill to the "Plateau of the Would Be Gods" and then a blind uphill 54.7 degree wedge to the table top green. You are happy with your 6.
From the green, 1000 feet above the level of the first tee, you can see almost all of the golf course. All that is not immediately visible are holes 7 and 8, which lie behind Mount Mazuma to the east which, it is said, were found by the architect only through the serendipty of a helicopter guidance malfunction during the routing process. Hence the name of the development and the course...............
I'm with you, Dano, all the way.
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I was playing at a Country Club for a Day last year with three friends. When they got into the cart, they couldn't hold back their joy that there was GPS available.
For every person here on CGA, I'll bet there are 4 or 5 who love the gimmicks, cart golf, GPS, and the like - who don't appreciate the art of golf architecure.
Here's what I think one of my friends would do at Pine Valley. "What - no carts? No GPS? Let's go play in Atlantic City."...
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I agree that golf is more fun if the course can be walked, and I try like hell to make all my designs walkable. However, sometimes, the client has other priorities. I guess I should just quit those jobs at that point?
If you want to dismiss any course which cannot be walked, you're entitled to that point of view. You won't rule out very many of the best courses in the world that way, but you will ignore some very good work.
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Interesting... but yet another topic that's been covered oodles of times before. Hey, we all have our personal preferences about this great game. For some, walking is fundamental to the experience, to different degrees, even to the degree that Dan King takes it - that's it's not golf if one has to ride a cart. That's cool. Seems a bit overly zealous to me, as I have had PLENTY of magical golf experiences operating out of a cart, but that's just me: coming from the other side, where hitting the ball is the fundamental thing, and how one gets to the spot to hit it can add or detract from the experience, but not enough to ruin it or to make it a different game....
So in the end, as often is the case here, it seems to me Tom Doak has the best answer:
"If you want to dismiss any course which cannot be walked, you're entitled to that point of view. You won't rule out very many of the best courses in the world that way, but you will ignore some very good work."
That ought to be the mantra for this issue.
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Tom
You make a good point. Obviously the owner of the property often thinks he has a better use for some land than as a golf hole (foolish idea, I know!). Also, I do not think that anybody on this thread (or this board) will deny that some very great golf can be found on courses which are not completely "joined up"--Kapalua being the most often cited example. However, the question (for me, at least) is rather how "disjointed" can a golf course be before it becomes just a collection of golf holes and not really a "course" that flows from tee to geen to tee to green, etc. and has a holistic character of its own. My previous hyperbolic post was just put forward to try to set some parameters for that discussion.
I, personally, have long been in the camp of "the more joined up the better," and have posted so often on this site. To me, any part of the golfing experience which significantly disrupts the flow and rhythm of the game detracts from the game. In this big evil pot I would include carts, slow play and golf courses which do not flow from hole to hole, naturally or at least seemingly naturally.
While this may be impossible (or at least very difficult) to do in some situations, I think (recognizing fully that this might be commercially naive) that fighting the good fight for an integrated routing (as Tillinghast suggests in the quote above) would leave us with better golf and a better game, overall, than would capitulation.
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Richard:
"The more joined up the better" - for sure, I can live with that. But here's the $256K question, adjusted for inflation: should Coore & Crenshaw have turned down the job there, due to the disjointed nature of that property?
Is golf played there, as it is today?
TH
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Heck some guy I know wrote a 500 page book on the subject.
One is therefore left with this evitable conclusion:
Forrest Richardson is SOME GUY!
Mike
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Richard:
"The more joined up the better" - for sure, I can live with that. But here's the $256K question, adjusted for inflation: should Coore & Crenshaw have turned down the job there, due to the disjointed nature of that property?
Is golf played there, as it is today?
TH
Tom
As to the last question, yes (I assume--never been there), but in a diminished form--sort like playing baseball with designated runners, or for that matter, designated hitters....... :'( As to the first one, C&C can do whatever they want to with their time. Maybe they wanted the challenge of doing the best they could on a substandard piece of land. Maybe they needed the money. Maybe their wives wanted to spend some time on Hawaii. I don't know.
An architect should only turn down a job if he (or she) doesn't want to do it, for various valid reasons, including a desire to not compromise whatever design principles they might have.
Cheers
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I agree that golf is more fun if the course can be walked, and I try like hell to make all my designs walkable. However, sometimes, the client has other priorities. I guess I should just quit those jobs at that point?
A very good point. It should be far from any of us to presume to tell you what jobs you should and should not take.
Honestly though, it pains me to hear that the best and the brightest are building cart-ball courses, if only because it provides justification for all those scatterbrain courses being built by those who aren't nearly as good or as bright. Take CC's Plantation . . . every time this topic comes up, the Plantation banner is raised. Yet if anything Plantation is much more the exception than the rule. I know Plantation, have played it many times, and have news for most of those trying to justify cart-ball . . . they arent designing many Plantations.
So to be blunt, I for one would be very pleased if you and others of your stature would refuse to design any courses requiring carts. On principle. It might be good for golf.
If you want to dismiss any course which cannot be walked, you're entitled to that point of view. You won't rule out very many of the best courses in the world that way, but you will ignore some very good work.
I wouldnt go so far as to dismiss them, but they all are substantially diminished in my eyes. This may cause me to ignore some very good work, but just think of all of the mediocre designs I will avoid!
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Richard:
"The more joined up the better" - for sure, I can live with that. But here's the $256K question, adjusted for inflation: should Coore & Crenshaw have turned down the job there, due to the disjointed nature of that property?
Is golf played there, as it is today?
TH
Tom
As to the last question, yes (I assume--never been there), but in a diminished form--sort like playing baseball with designated runners, or for that matter, designated hitters....... :'( As to the first one, C&C can do whatever they want to with their time. Maybe they wanted the challenge of doing the best they could on a substandard piece of land. Maybe they needed the money. Maybe their wives wanted to spend some time on Hawaii. I don't know.
An architect should only turn down a job if he (or she) doesn't want to do it, for various valid reasons, including a desire to not compromise whatever design principles they might have.
Cheers
Well now this all makes very good sense.
But the trump card is this: magic does happen at Kapalua. Big time. It wouldn't for a walking only zealot, but I have a hunch you'd find a way to feel it.
And yes, it is golf. The degree of diminishment just depends on the beholder. As for me, I was damn happy to have a cart lest I keel over.
But Dave M. makes great points also... I'm just not sure that golf would be for the better if there was no Kapalua. So yes, it is the exception to the rule, but if that course never got made due to this principle of not designing courses better played out of carts, well... it wouldn't exist. A lot of other horrid courses would cease to exist also though... so it's a matter of whether it's worth it to throw this baby out with the bath water.
And it's not the only baby... but yes, there is a lot more bath water. But as land gets more and more scarce anywhere near urban areas, it just seems new courses get built that are better done out of carts. Lot's of them suck (The Ranch in San Jose) but some are very good (Cinnabar Hills in San Jose).
This remains a very tough question. I punt to the idea that more golf is always for the good... so that's where I fall. But I don't feel to secure in this.
TH
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David,
I agree wholeheartedly that walking is an intergal part of the game. I think some even mentioned needing carts for French Creek but when I had the pleasure to play there twice I walked and it was reasonable. Walking adds immense pleasure to the game.
Tom,
I think you need to live up to your big name status and do just as David suggests, refuse those jobs that require carts. By the way if you wouldn't mind passing along my contact info to those clients I would greatly appreciate it, maybe throw in some used clothes for kids since school is about to start, they need shoes and stuff like that. Thanks. Your ex-clients can find me at 610/371-8180, or info@kellyblakemoran.com. Thanks so much.
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Now THAT was a funny post.
I always like to take time out to agree with Rich - it's golf, but in a greatly diminished form to me. Can't say I think I've ever experienced magic in a golf cart, but I haven't played Kapalua. The cart ball tracks I have played are lesser courses for it.
What great courses would one miss by not playing unwalkable courses? (Please don't be cliche and say Kapalua - can't someone else give one example?)
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George:
There are many great courses that work better out of a cart. Oh, the walking-is-intrinsic-to-the-game folks can still walk any course - just by definition there is no such thing as an unwalkable course - if one can get there by cart, one can walk on the same road - but as you know, some courses would make one VERY tired if one walked. So we can beat around some semantics, but in the end, it still comes down to what jazzes one about this great game.
I'd say each of these is better played with a cart:
Pasatiempo. Blasphemy for many, I'm sure, but dammit I've done it both ways many times and it is just too damn hilly and too freakin' tiring to walk. I do walk there more than ride, but every time I leave there exhausted wishing I had a cart. I doubt that anyone would call this a "cart-only" course, but hey, you asked....
Either course at MPCC. Again, neither is the world's worst walk... but one misses nothing playing out of a cart, and suffers less exhaustion.
Just about any course in the state of Colorado. High altitude, mucho mountains = better done out of cart. Obviously there are exceptions.
Cabo del Sol Ocean course, Mexico. Very tough walk, incredibly great course. Same goes for every other worthwhile course down there near Cabo.
I could go on and on, that's just a sampling off the top of my head of courses this group would have heard of.
And again, please understand that I prefer to walk also. I'd sooner demand my arm be cut off than demand a cart anywhere in the UK or Ireland. But those courses are generally built before carts existed, with greens and tees quite close together... so even beyond the affront to the golf gods that using a cart there would be, well... carts aren't necessary basically anywhere over there - thank God.
I've just always been one to say that NOT playing a course because it works better out of a cart is biting off one's nose to spite one's face. But again, like I say above, I have a different way of looking at golf than those for whom the game doesn't exist without walking. Fair enough, great big golf world, you know.
TH
ps - full concurrence re KBM's post!
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I think we need to break down the walking vs. riding to 2 areas:
a. between holes
b. playing the hole
Are the courses that are riding courses that way because of the green-to-tee distances/terrain?
If there was cart service between green and tee, would walking the holes from tee-to-green be doable?
Mike
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Mike:
Methinks huge distances from green to tee are what make most courses that have such things better done out of a cart. But large elevation changes can do the same also. Take Pasa for example... the only long hike from green to tee is from 9 to 10 really. But I still think it works better out of a cart, just due to the elevation distance from 2 green up to 12 tee.
But it could be just that I am old and fat and tired. ;)
Our local fave Cinnabar Hills is like Pasa in this respect - definitely walkable, as many here (including me) have proven... but only at risk of much greater exhaustion, much more time taken and thus less enjoyment. And this is due in equal measures to green to tee hikes and large elevation changes. I think the strident walker would skip this course, which would be too bad, because there is a lot of greatness there to be seen.
TH
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There is a GIGANTIC difference to me between tough to walk and unwalkable.
I walked Black Mesa and Paa Ko last fall and didn't think either was even close to being unwalkable. Tough walks, yes, but I'd still rather walk 'em than ride 'em - to me, it's that important.
I've played other courses with long long rides from green to tee that I can't imagine being magical to me.
To me:
Tough walk - questionable routing - maybe good, maybe bad, depends on the result of the holes.
Unwalkable - bad routing. Maybe it's the architect's fault, maybe it's the owner/developer. Who knows, who cares.
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George:
Well, to those who take this far enough, "unwalkable" doesn't exist. Hey, I'm with you - I have seen several courses that I'd consider "unwalkable", but one right off the top of my head has been walked by some idiots, er, check that, guys who prefer to walk. ;) It's called Pasadera, in Monterey, CA. But I'd stretch things considerably to call it "great". Pretty good works, though.
But this does make it a tougher question. Of course the poster child for this is indeed Kapalua Plantation, but I'd never stoop such a trite mention. BUT... someone familiar with Colorado can likely come up with another... and those down in Cabo sure merit "unwalkable" for me also....
So as I say, this could just come down to semantics, how one defines the terms. If I am in a foul enough mood I sure could call Pasatiempo unwalkable. But obviously Dan King and several others would never agree with that!
TH
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For me, unwalkable refers to long rides from green to tee, not severe terrain. Black Mesa and Paa Ko were severe, but not at all unwalkable. A course with long rides between one green and the following tee is unwalkable - and almost not enjoyable for me.
Maybe if I were riding in a cart with Salma or Nicole Kidman, good - otherwise bad. :)
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George: well again, that's your definition. Methinks you need to see some mountain golf before you get too set in this, however. I;d also love to take you to Cinnabar Hills in San Jose, where green to tee distance isn't bad, but tee to fairway distance is often horrible and makes for a very tiring walk (think down a valley and up the other side, many times).
Black Mesa wasn't a bad walk at all, agreed. That being said, I sure as hell didn't turn down the cart for the 2nd round.
;)
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Huck
Time for a fitness regime. I'm older and fatter than you and I can walk Cinnabar Hills. And, the tee to green ups and downs are no worse than many Ross gems.
BTW--glad to see that you've finally come around to my point of view on that course. ;)
As to the point at hand, as George says, the problem is obviously the between hole distances/disconnects. That's what breaks up the flow of the course and the continuity of the game. That's what makes a track just a collection of golf holes and not a course.
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Tom, given that you have repeatedly expressed your ambivalence regarding walking versus riding, I really dont think you are in a position to act as arbiter. Pasa? You've got to be kidding me. A pleasure to walk. I havent played the new course at Monterey, but the old Shore and the Dunes were/are very pleasurable walks. Perhaps your picks say more about your current physical condition than the walkability of the courses. If a fat-ass like me would prefer to walk them, surely a svelt young man such as yourself should have no trouble.
As for your Colorado speculation, I've never played there. But between Montana and New Mexico, I have played a number of walkable courses at elevation. I dont know the elevation of the courses, but I know that Santa Fe NM is around 7000 ft. and the courses I've played there or near are all walking courses.
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Kelly,
"Your ex-clients can find me at 610/371-8180, or info@kellyblakemoran.com"
Are you paying Ran for the advetising? ;D
I thought I'd give you another plug! ;D
Highland Golf links is the longest walk I can remember on a course. The terrain involves much climbing and decending, but it still remains remarkably walkable. Thompson's genius was to use a series of holes to climb or decend, rather than a cart path that takes you to the next elevated tee.
Capilano is a remarkably walkable course on a very steep and difficult piece of property. Thompson used a couple of holes running parallel to the mountain to break the climb and the descent at key points. These seem to break the crushing climb into managaable stages.
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Ian,
Are you talking about Highland in London?!?! You're description distinctly makes me think of HIGHLANDS LINKS ;)
As for Capilano, I agree. Give any one of a group of contemporary Canadian golf architects that raw Capilano site, and I'd bet the course wouldn't match up to Thompson's remarkably genius, amazingly walkable layout.
Sadly, what it would be is, a testament to his so-called "family tree" up here in Canada. [Sorry.]
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David/Rich:
Aw hell, you guys are probably right. I am just feeling old and tired and walking for the sake of walking, at courses that just leave me a whole hell of a lot less exhausted if I take a cart, seems to make more sense than ever. And whereas I'll never understand how the magical game I experienced at Kapalua is not golf, and how the awful crap I've experienced during very easy walks at places like San Jose muni IS golf and thus is somehow better... well... the most transcendent moments do occur whilst walking.
And Rich, congrats on finally coming around to MY way of thinking about Cinnabar.
;)
TH
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Tom Doak writes:
However, sometimes, the client has other priorities. I guess I should just quit those jobs at that point?
I can't speak for you, but I would have. But then I'm independently wealthy and never consider money when making any decisions in life.
Tom Huckaby writes:
For some, walking is fundamental to the experience, to different degrees, even to the degree that Dan King takes it - that's it's not golf if one has to ride a cart.
I'm no where near as militant as I used to be. I've been known to play rounds of cart-ball. The topic came up because some believe you can have a good routing that isn't walkable. I disagreed. I don't think unwalkable courses can hold their heads up in polite society. As others have said the flow of the course is ruined by riding endless cartpaths between holes. Wouldn't flow be an important function of routing?
So why not one of you are cart-ball fans explain how you can do a good routing job on a cart-ball course?
coming from the other side, where hitting the ball is the fundamental thing, and how one gets to the spot to hit it can add or detract from the experience, but not enough to ruin it or to make it a different game....
Tom, I think you have gotten closer to understanding the game of golf over the years I've known you. I believe someday you will understand the beauty of the game and take it way beyond the shots. Give it time, the experience will come.
should Coore & Crenshaw have turned down the job there, due to the disjointed nature of that property?
It's been years since I played the Plantation. I'll need to grab some money out of one of my buckets of dough and go check it out again. I'm not 100 percent positive a walkable course couldn't have been designed on that site. The site is walkable, so why couldn't the course be walkable? Are the forced hikes really necessary, or could a few between holes have worked to get to the existing holes?
But since you asked, yes if Coore and Crenshaw had asked my advice I would have told them to turn down the job if they couldn't make the course walkable.
Should they take jobs that can't end in golf holes but are required to end at a clown's mouth? Should architects have principles or just work for the highest bidder?
I'm not saying architects must have the same principles as myself, but if they believe in golf as a game played on foot they should turn down jobs to build cart-ball courses.
Dan King
Ye're makin' a great mistake if ye think the gemme is meant for the shots. The gemme is meant for walkin'.
--Shivas Irons (Golf in the Kingdom)
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And again, please understand that I prefer to walk also. I'd sooner demand my arm be cut off than demand a cart anywhere in the UK or Ireland. But those courses are generally built before carts existed, with greens and tees quite close together... so even beyond the affront to the golf gods that using a cart there would be, well... carts aren't necessary basically anywhere over there - thank God.
Would that this were true, but when I was in Ireland a bit over a month ago, many of the courses had carts. Even, blasphemy of blashphemies -- BALLYBUNION! Oh, not on the Old yet, they just started it on June 24th on the Cashen, and after talking to the pro a bit after the round I found out it was an experiment to see how it goes as far as damage to the grasses before considering them on the Old. But it sure sounds like they are down that round and Old Ballybunion will have carts in a few years. At this rate I wouldn't be surprised to see the Links Trust permit them on the New, Eden and Jubilee, and keep only the Old Course pure. There would be open revolt if they permitted carts on that hallowed ground! Not to mention needing tractors to tow them out of hidden pot bunkers people drove them into when not looking where they were going ;D
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David/Rich:
Aw hell, you guys are probably right. I am just feeling old and tired and walking for the sake of walking, at courses that just leave me a whole hell of a lot less exhausted if I take a cart, seems to make more sense than ever. And whereas I'll never understand how the magical game I experienced at Kapalua is not golf, and how the awful crap I've experienced during very easy walks at places like San Jose muni IS golf and thus is somehow better... well... the most transcendent moments do occur whilst walking.
And Rich, congrats on finally coming around to MY way of thinking about Cinnabar.
;)
TH
Huckaby for President!
Slogan:
"More waffles than Bush 41! More flip-flops than Kerry! More baseless confidence than W! In a complicated world, who needs principles?"
Doug
The only thing keeping carts (mostly) off of old links courses is the conservatism of older members. The Pros and Club Managers are drooling at the revenue possibilities and would sell out their souls in a St. Andrews Minute. Just wait till the geezer like me die out and The Old Course, Dornoch, Turnberry, Prestwick, etc. will look like an open air bumper car ride. :'(
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Richard:
Some things are worth taking a stand on, some things aren't. This is all SO based on personal preferences about the game, well... there are battles and then there are battles and we haven't moved in a decade on this, so it's folly to think we will now. So you can have this one. You remain completely misguided and insane about handicapping issues, though. ;)
Dan:
Shivas Irons remains wise and I do live by his teachings, but... he never lived in California. I sincerely believe if he lived in San Jose, he'd do some riding.. as you have come to do yourself. That is really all I am saying here, and I think when it gets down to it we agree: the BEST golf is played walking, but the game can be played out of a cart and sometimes it is wise to do so, when circumstances find you at a course with such characteristics. Having walked from 9 green to 10 tee at Wente Vineyards, well... I came to see the light.
;D
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So why not one of you are cart-ball fans explain how you can do a good routing job on a cart-ball course?
Wente Vineyards. The routing there is wonderful, the holes flow well togther, but yet you have the ghastly climb from 9 green to 10 tee. Allowing this climb though takes advantage of the ridge to provide 4 damn fine golf holes above the rest. Would you have had Norman NOT go up there, just to preserve the walk? Seems silly to me.
Disagree?
TH
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Nice one Ian, I guess I can be less than honorable at times. Now according to Dan King I am a down right pig, taking money from the highest bidder. Dan, could you please give me the list of client's that are bidding up architects fees? Please. You have set a high standard, and you are pushing architects to think deeper about what they are doing. Good. I think you are doing a good thing, to disparage some of the scum like me that have done courses with carts, and are difficult to walk seems excessive but so be it, Imean there will always be the beautiful people then there will be us white trailer trash. Let me push you a little. I just shelved my metal driver and 4 wood and have gone back to my persimmon Toney Penna driver, and I just purchased a Toney Penna persmmon 4 wood to go with it. I think of it as enhancing the golfing experience, ever bit as worthy as walking which I do also, so I hope you and others join me. There are a lot of beautiful persimmon woods on ebay for cheap that nobody wants. I hope you join me.