Bunkers at the rear..? Strategic? or..?

[James Edwards]

My first thread was about the preperation of bunkers for tournament golfers - see bunkers are hazards..! aren't they? -

My second attempt at a discussion is the relevance of the rear bunker / the back bunker, in course design today.

Are they relevent anymore? without firm greens they rarely get used and are an extra maintenence headache for the superintendent and his green staff.

Apart from them stopping balls going through the green into places you don't want people to go or for safety reasons, Do we need them? You could argue from an elevated Par 3 hole they can give the hole depth.

What are peoples opinions on this?

[A_Clay_Man]

I hope I can speak for most when I say that your point about firm is where the designs of today are/should and may be headed.

At Wild Horse in Gothenburg,Ne. Dick Daley didn't mention the back bunker on one of the par 5's because he wanted it to be a real surprise for anyone who was ignorant and/or too aggressive.
I pulled a tommy there when we had two kicks at it and put one in there on purpose.

The back bunker on the 16th at CPC seems like it will never be out of style designwise.
And how about Wier's bunker on 15 at PB? In all the rounds I have seen there, I think Mike's was the third ball I'd seen go in that bunker.

[James Edwards]

A Caly Man, thank you for the reply.

Sorry for my ignorance, which course is CPC? and were you saying in your last point that the bunker at 15 at PB was not relevent?

[A_Clay_Man]

JJse- CPC is what is known to many as heaven or at least next door. The Cypress Point Club is the acronym.

And I don't believe I meant to imply it's irrrelevance but from the areial you could see how small that finger of that bunker actually is. Also, one of the biggest reasons players don't find that bunker is that the hole has a tendancy to play slightly longer than the stated yardage. It' is probably best not to try to figure too much extra yardage because below the hole is clearly a better position.

My feelings on your query are that if the bunker is pure eye candy, it's irrelavent. Containment justifications are somewhat less of a travesty but that should be site specific and if the bunker is penal, I love it.

[Jim Sweeney]

J.J.S.E.:

The bunkers behind #12 at ANGC certainly offer an interesting challenge to their unfortunate captives. Of course, part of that challenge is due to the narrow green and slope to the water.

Certainly on holes where the green falls away from the line of play, a back bunker has strategic effect. Think Oakmont.

I am very much in favor of back bunkers that have the dual effect of keeping the ball in play when the alternative is a ball OB or an unplayable ball or a ball in a water hazard, and provides a stiff challenge to the golfer's sand play skills. I figure if the bunker saved him a penalty stroke, he damn well better have to work to benefit from the good fortune of the bunker being there in the first place.

[ForkaB]

I think that back bunkers are underutilised.  I can think of a few off the top of my head that really add to the value of a hole, particulary by adding a bit of uncertainty/fear over how to hit a shot to a back pin, namely:

Muirfield #11
Kingsbarns #6
Woods Hole #17

[James Edwards]

Thank you for everyone's help regarding the virgin brits naivety.

I apologise.

I'll come up with a few for my home courses in England - see whether you get them....

Jim, fine example at Augusta with the 12th...  I agree with those back bunkers totally.  

What about the 7th? you very rarely see any player in those and funnily enough there blind? and also, youd have to be stupid to go long there anyway, so why do we have them?

Also Jim, great point about the back bunker keeping the ball in play...  If it does, make the bloody thing penal!  they should be happy to even get another shot without penalty..

Great points.

[Mike Hendren]

This from Robert Hunter:

"Not infrequently one sees bunkers so placed as to prohibit good play.  Bunkers behind the green often deter one from bold shots to the pin."

This sentiment is echoed by The Captain, who advocated fairway extensions behind greens.

I was fortunate enough to play Talking Stick North and South earlier this week.  Particularly on the North course, C & C adopted this principal.  Plenty of room behind the greens, and with firm and fast conditions, the long shot typically bounded further from the hole, leaving an awkward pitching distance.  Sometimes, I would have rather found a rear bunker.

BTW, I'm still trying to digest both courses given their uniqueness in my realm of experience.

Regards,

Mike

[James Edwards]

robert and mike, thankyou.

Have you read my other thread: bunkers are hazards!..... aren't they???

Once again I can't believe that golfers can say quite easily and I quote "sometimes I would have rather found a rear bunker".

I thought that adapting to fast and firm conditions was all part of the strategy of the shot and so therefore you would wish to pitch short and hold the green?

15th at Augusta - If there was a rear bunker there, how many players would go for the green off a good drive ANSWER: all of them because W.C.Scenario is they will go in the bunker and from there they would be able to control there shots all day long.  Because there isn't there ball goes down towards the 16th and the possibility of going back in the hazard they've crossed is high.  

Golfers hate thinking don't they??

I applaud the run off area at the back, makes you think a little.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

I would agree, they are underutilized a great deal, probably because they tend to be invisible.

Six holes at Pine Tree, 14 at NGLA, 11 at GCGC and six holes at my home course in NJ make the attack of the green a more precarious approach, with dire consequences for the long ball.

It also adds greatly to the thrill in approaching rear pin positions and the putting difficulty encountered when the approach comes up short, due to fear of the rear bunker.

I'd like to see more of them on modern day courses.

[Mike Hendren]

J.J.S.E.,

In my case, it's not a question of adapting or thinking, but rather executing  I suffer from the LOT syndrome:  Lack Of Talent.

Regards,

Mike

[DMoriarty]

This from Robert Hunter:

"Not infrequently one sees bunkers so placed as to prohibit good play.  Bunkers behind the green often deter one from bold shots to the pin."

This sentiment is echoed by The Captain, who advocated fairway extensions behind greens.

For an alternate view, see Tom Doak's "Anatomy of a Golf Course."  If my memory is correct, Mr. Doak posits that bunkers behind greens can be a good psychological strategic feature, because they get into the agressive low handicapper's mind, but are seldom noticed or entered by high handicappers (who tend to miss short.)

I tend to agree with Doak.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Rear bunkers on the 2nd at Olympic get a lot of use.  Elevated, often firm green that is not kind to shots that are short, leads many to over do it on the approach.  With a back pin position recovery from the bunkers is difficult.

[ForkaB]

Pat

Good to see you back, and thanks for your thoughts.  Even though I gerenally agree with you (and myself, from my first post!) I also note that on my "home" course only one of the greens has a back bunker, and yet at least 2/3 of them have other stuff behind the key back pin positions (slopes and grunge, mostly) that often make you wish there were a bunker there.

[RJ_Daley]

Doak's comment:

...bunkers behind greens can be a good psychological strategic feature, because they get into the agressive low handicapper's mind, but are seldom noticed or entered by high handicappers (who tend to miss short.)

This fits his design of the 7th (?) at high point very well.  I think that the size of a rear bunker relative to the entire back of the green area is important.  A long narrow catching bunker isn't worth much in my view unless it is put there on a par 3 to give depth definintion and to purposely contain a ball from a long roll through the green surround for specific reasons of routing, etc.  But, a pot with a bit of a catching cauldron surrounding lip of said bunker to the rear of a green, with some element of luck or intentional calculated risk strategy by a player to avoid going long into that rear bunker if the line into the green is played "safe" but a miss puts you into the pot, is more what I think the value of a rear sited bunker should be.  That rear "blind only once" surprise at the 14th at Wild Horse is a perfect example, and much the same as the 7th at High Point.  The not blind but rear sited bunker of the short and sometimes drivable 15th at WH is in the same genre, where the player not able to drive the green still must position the drive to a place where it is least likely to bound into the rear bunker on the firm and smallish well contoured green on the second shot, also guarded by a front pot.  SAnd Hills has a few well placed rear bunkers as well.

The theme, like most anything in GCA should not be overdone, and once or twice in a round is plenty.

[Mike Hendren]

RJ,

Along those lines, I was surprised to discover the back rear bunker on 16 at Talking Stick South.  It was very atypical, and fed by a slight gathering depression no more than twelve feet from the back-right pin placement on a small plateau.  Maintenance included about six inches of thick rough to brake a ball from going into the bunker.  Strategically, I think it would have been cool to remove this collar altogether.  My third was fifteen feet short of the hole.  Had I been aware of the presence of this rear bunker, it would likely have been 30 feet short of the hole.  Entirely possible to putt aggressively from there into the bunker, or fail to climb the plateau in fear thereof.

I guess this supports the "for" opinion.

Regards,

Mike

[James Edwards]

Mike, thank you for your posts..

Interesting reading from a British viewpoint.

Maybe it's a trans Atlantic difference??

I watched the equivalent of the Ryder Cup played by the PGA Pros at Celtic Manor, Wales- and I stood by this particular green for a long time..  The Pin was in the back and every group that came through was the same.

The Amercans hit the high ball which pitched past the pin, and spun back - and conversely, every European hit a much flatter trajectory and pitched short with a 2 or 3 metre run out..  

I would say from my observations that confidence was higher on the American approaches and the birdie putts were far shorter!  but, the Europeans shots were far safer to control?

Maybe, we just don't see the back bunker as a relevent hazard unless a hole like 12 at Augusta is in front of you?

What do you think?

[Doug Siebert]

Back bunkers still have some use, for example in a corner of the green that is shallower than the rest.  My home course uses this well on a few holes -- I won't shoot at a back pin a lot of times because the combination of firm and fast greens along with steep slope and little green to work with means that a bunker shot must be played absolutely perfectly to give a chance at an up and down.  It is common to see people in those bunkers carry the bunker shot nearly to the pin for fear of leaving it in the sand and trickle it all the way to the front fringe, and the inevitable three putt from there leaves them with a nifty double where smart play would have resulted in an easy par.

They'll certainly come into play on a green that has a bit of slope from front to back, but I suppose today's pros would probably consider that "unfair" because even a properly struck sand wedge might not stop on a dime and give change

[James Edwards]

Doug, thank you
Good Reply....

You describe that scenario well at your club, which I'm sure is echoed by numerous others.

I like to see this occasionally, but mixing it up is far more appealing to me.

The run off area at the back which leads away is my favourite because like you described in the bunker, you can get cute and leave the shot short and have it return to your feet!

I love Strategy - keep it short in the first place!

[Patrick_Mucci]

DMoriarty,

I find Tom Doak's assessment to be flawed.

High handicappers don't hit many greens in regulation.

But, they do hit their third or fourth shots to the green,
thus bringing rear bunkers into play for their ultimate approach to the green,
probably more so than the low handicap player with his approach shot to the green.

Since they are higher handicaps, and closer to the green, they probably produce significantly less spin on their approach shot, which brings the rear bunker more into play.

When the pin is back, near the rear bunker, the fear factor in the high handicapper escalates because they can usually see the rear bunker or surrounding earthwork from closer to the green, and they usually recognize that they're not good bunker players, and don't have the touch necessary to get the ball close to a rear pin, without challenging the rear bunker.  Many, if not most, will leave their approach deliberately short because of the rear bunker, leaving them with a longer, more difficult approach putt.

Hence, I find rear bunkers more of a factor to higher handicap players than to lower handicap players.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Visual containment is also an important consideration when speaking of of back bunkers.  This is particularly important when thinking of higher handicappers.  Why you ask?

For the higher handicap the rear bunker offers a visual clue as to the real length and depth of the shot. Bunkers and foliage placed behind the game give a feeling of comfort.

The more difficult shot for the better player is the unbacked shot.  The uncertainty caused by the lack of visual cues adds a minimal muscle tension to put the shot off target.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cos,

I might have agreed with you 40 years ago when the game was played by feel, but with every sprinkler head showing the yardage to the front, middle and back of the green, together with 200, 150, and 100 yard markers, pin sheets, etc., etc., I don't think that the visual backdrop is a significant aide for the higher handicap.

I do think that skyline greens are intimidating to many.

I don't think the two positions conflict.

[Art_Schaupeter]

I tend to agree with the comments attributed to Robert Hunter and George Thomas regarding aggressive play.  I do think that there are certain situations when a backing bunker is appropriate.  I have used them on shorter holes, where the approach shot is more about control as opposed to purely length and/or difficulty.  In this scenario the green is usually wider as opposed to deeper, and there is a premium on distance control because the approach shot is typically shorter.  I will then shade the bunker to one side of the green or the other to help create a tight hole location on just a portion of the green.  The other side of the green might just have a slight runoff like Thomas proposed.  This helps change the strategy and the feel of the hole as the hole location changes from day to day.  I might use this strategy a few times over the course of eighteen holes, maybe 3 or 4 holes maximum.

  

[JJSE]

Patrick, thank you for your reply.

Greens in Reg for an 18 handicapped player on a Par 4 would be three then.  Do you agree?

Your point about the back bunker being more in play for the high handicapper is an interesting one..  It would be interesting to find out, for sure?

I know that most professionals enjoy a back pin because it gives you more variety of approach shot.. more options on flight.  Low with run, or high with spin.  If your confident, you can get the ball to back up 5 feet short, if not, 10 feet short - they have the game.

The professional rarely goes long..  In all the time I played in both America and Europe, I very rarely had to wait for my partners to play back to the green.  They all have the ability (and indeed as your point clearly states in Part II) the numbers and the caddies to stop them from the uncertainty of going long.

Most times though, trouble is long!

Cos made a good point about the unbacked green- this in my opinion is true for the good player - they prefer a back bunker or mound to give them depth definately.

Art, again, good post - I agree - occasional usuage.

[brad miller]

Two of my favorite? rear bunkers can be found on # 13 at Seminole and #2 at Prairie Dunes. Both are par 3's in the 160-165 range that wind is a big factor, with their greens back to front pitch both make recovery very interesting. To certain pins both bunkers are less than 5 yards from the green, factor in 15-25 plus mph wind and they are in play.