Can someone please define "Classic Courses?"

[Matt_Ward]

One of the more interesting aspects of GCA is the use of terms when people discuss any number of golf related aspects and its tie to architecture.

Can someone please define the term "classic course?" I get the impression we are speaking only about courses designed and built during the time frame of the 20's when all the heavy hitters (Tillinghast, Thomas, Ross, Flynn, yada, yada, yada) were designing some of their most impressive works.

One other thing -- is every "classic" course truly classic or is there some sort of pedigree that separates it from other "classics" designed within that time frame? How wide or narrow is the scope of the defintioin when using the term?

I turn this over to those "in the know" because I am ignorant on the subject and require a bit of schooling. Thanks!

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt Ward:

There are probably many terms thrown around to describe golf courses that are used so frequently as to really lose any meaning. My favorite example is "championship". Every course, if various marketing materials are to be believed, is a "championship" course.

Now "classic". I think you are right that it usually refers to courses built during a certain period (1920s ish). Perhaps also, it refers to courses built during this period in the United States. By that I mean that I don't recall hearing this word used in Europe very often, if at all. Truthfully, I don't know if "classic" is part of Australian lexicon.

Now that is just time and place. But, I think "classic" also refers to other things. For example, construction techniques. The 1920s was not a time when much earthmoving was deployed. So, "classic courses" tend to be those whose character reflects the topography on site rather than some formula that is applied when money and technology are brought into the design/construction process.

"Classic" probably also refers to the best examples of architecture coming out of that era. We don't use the word for every course built in the 1920s. We recognize they don't all deserve special praise. They are not all "classics".

Finally, "classic" probably has some connotation regarding hole strategy and design. For instance, a redan is deemed "classic". A cape hole may get the same description, etc. I guess this refers to a design - maybe even a formula - that is deemed to have lasting interest and value. CB Mac builds the cape at Mid Ocean. Pete Dye does the same at PGA West. Or Flynn builds a redan at Shinnecock and Tom Doak does a spin on the same theme at Cape Kidnappers.

That's the best I can do. The word is probably used too often and means somewhat different things to different people. If you would prefer to see other, more specific terms used, I'm probably in your camp. But, I doubt we can stop people using shorthand or terms that may have marketing appeal.

[A_Clay_Man]

I have always felt the term classic just meant that something survived the test of time.

In the case of gca there seems to be an esoteric reference to those courses and dates stated above.

To me, the date has only the time test to pass but I think any course which allows multiple levels of differing talents of players, to golf day in and day out, without getting bored and is always a source of education, challenge and thrills qualifies better than it's bithdate.

[Chris_Clouser]

Matt,

To me a course needs to have some sort of significance to it to be considered classic.  When looking at Maxwell's courses one of the early things I knew that I wanted to do was to highlight his "classic" courses.  What determined this?  They were courses that for whatever reason were significant to his career and were influential to golf in general.  For instance, I would consider his work at Twin Hills to be classic, but a course constructed just a couple of years later, Hillcrest or Muskogee, I would not.  Their influence on golf in Oklahoma or in the nation or to Maxwell's career was not significant enough to really be considered at that level even though they are fine courses.  

This doesn't even apply to the Golden Age folks.  Pete Dye has designed some great courses that I would consider classic, The Golf Club, Crooked Stick, Harbour Town.  But would I consider all of his courses classis?  By no means would I consider a Plum Creek or Eagle Creek at that level.

I personally don't see classic as being a time sensitive term.

[tonyt]

From an Australian point of view, the higher regarded courses of the Melbourne sandbelt have always been referred to as being classic courses. Sometimes correctly out of respect, and sometimes just as a tired descripter. Group them with Royal Adelaide, New South Wales and other more universally respected courses, and the term seems to be used for those courses which have been around to stand the test of time.

Perhaps it is a cliche used for any old courses that people still love, and so they have earned the moniker "classic". It also implies a little bit that the course is a little more natural and it's reputation has come about through evolution, not revolution.

[Andy Levett]

Sadly the word 'classic' has become debased into nothing more than a marketing term - for example Ford introduces a new model and gets rid of old stock of the previous shape by badging it Fiesta Classic.
But like many others I still use the word classic to refer to something that has stood the test of time and recognise stuff that's new but good by calling it a modern classic.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,
For a course to be a classic it must be "of the highest class and most representative of the excellence of its kind".
In art, literature, or structural architecture the term refers to the Romans or the Greeks, therefore the element of having worth over along period of time becomes part of the definition..  
Is every course from what is defined as the "Classic" period worthy of being called such? -No.

Places like Sand Hills, Pac Dunes, Shadow Creek, Mayacama, etc., are better defined as modern classics.

[Jeff_Mingay]

In part, my miniature Canadian English dictionary defines 'classic' as something 'characterized by simplicity and purity of form.' I really like that definition as it applies to a golf course, no matter how old it is or who designed it.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Matt,

This was the definition for "classic" that came up on dictionary.com. If you insert the words "golf course" in a few spots, I would say it works very well.

* (A golf course) belonging to the highest rank or class.
* (A golf course) serving as the established model or standard: a classic example of (golf course) architecture.
* (A golf course) having lasting significance or worth; enduring.

[A_Clay_Man]

I looked it up in my Dictionary and among the definitions I really liked the this one:

Balanced

[Yancey_Beamer]

Ron Forse makes the point in his lectures on restoration that the classical courses were built with match play in mind and that modern courses are built with metal play in mind. He notes that Pete Dye brought this back.My notes also contain:
The three elements of a good golf course-
1)Strategy(often lacking in modern courses-swing away vs thinking)
2)Variety(modern courses often fail-features are not random)
3)Naturalness
Classic Courses are beautiful-Why? Cuts and fills are proportionate.(not equal)Nothing raised on ground.
Classic courses have undulating berms.

Ground rules for Classic Golf Course Restoration and Renovation

1)ROUTING of course uses the lay of the land well to minimise earth work.
2)The Scottish LINKS were the greatest influence on the classic designers.
3)INDIVIDUAL HOLES were designed to complement the other 17 for optimal variety in a round of golf. Within each group of Par(I.e,3's,4's&5's)golf holes reflect different lengths and types of tee and approach shots.For example,some Par 5'sare gambling birdie types while others are true 3-shot holes.(careful-if lengthening course-tees back-holes change)
4)STRATEGY is the paramount concept in the design of an individual hole,not photogenicity or penalty.An alternate, longer and less risky way to the hole is provided in the design for the bogey golfer.
5)PERMANENT GROUND FEATURES dictate design, not trees, (unless an old oak or such,can be used.) Safety is a primary use for trees.Many courses are now going to the expense to remove trees.The lesson is to use trees sparingly.Trees improperly used really hurt the design intent.
(Tree line-200 feet-clear cutting)
(You need-110 feet-fairway width)
6)BUNKERS are used to make the game interesting,not necessarily to penalize.Strategy is the driving force behind bunker placement.
7)BUNKERS often designed by Architects were DEEP,to present a true risk to gain a true reward,i.e. for true and strategic impact.Shallow bunkers often do not present enough risk.It is best when a tension is impressed on the player's mind as he strategizes and weighs options with the attendant risks and rewards. i.e.shot value.
On the other hand, DIFFERENT BUNKER DEPTHS are often enployed for variety.
9)MOUNDS and other topographic features have natural appearance with undulating horizons and forms that constantly change. Unpredictably,rather than a mechanical look prevails.
10)GREENS are often SQUARED UP, especially along the front.
11)GREENCOUNTOURS seperate cupping areas to reward a well played shot.
12)FAIRWAYS ARE WIDE (often 150 feet i.e. Pinehurst).

These basic, over-arching principles must guide any restoration or interpretive renovation work.These give an understanding of the original architect's intent and approach.

I hope Ron's lecture helps with your understanding of the term "Classic Course."

[TEPaul]

I've always assumed the term "classic course" is somewhat synonymous with the term "classic/strategic". And furthermore the term and concept of "strategic" in architecture emanated out of that early era in golf architecture, beginning after 1900 when architects were thinking of ways to depart from the less than thoughtful era of "penal" architecture which was basically a series of less than thoughtful sort of do or die center cross hazards!

All this was beginning to evolve after that time when golf courses and architecture began to first depart from the linksland that was basically naturally and randomly strategic. It should always be kept in mind that TOC was always considered the "classic/strategic" model when golf first went elsewhere and inland but of course for a time we do know that the "classic/strategic" model of TOC was not followed in early architecture. Frankly, the single revolutionary feature that may have awakened early inland architecture to the "classic/strategic" model was the center fairway bunker on Woking's #4.

And then in the modern age the whole idea of the ground game option in golf began to lose function bigtime. This ground game alternate feature was a large part of the "classic" course--ie the "classic/strategic" model that was so well done and done so often in what has come to be known as the "Golden Age of Architecture" (1900-1930).

I don't think the term "classic" course does or should mean much more than that. It doesn't really mean "old" at all. It's more an architectural model involving alternating "strategies" with perhaps half of them involving ground game play in some form--either in ground bounce and roll or design for that.

I think another thing that should be considered with those older "classic/strategic" courses in the context of the use of their ground game design and function is that even on the best of them the ground game alternative was never meant to be offered all the time--on every hole, in other words. Some of those old holes demanded an aerial shot. The alternative, however, never really seemed to be a relief situation--only the expected lose of a shot or so with some other route along the ground.

[Andy Levett]

In part, my miniature Canadian English dictionary defines 'classic' as something 'characterized by simplicity and purity of form.' I really like that definition as it applies to a golf course, no matter how old it is or who designed it.

In music and other arts commentators often make a distinction between classic (see above) and Romantic (more extreme, emotional, visionary).

So if there are classic courses perhaps there are Romantic courses too and Romantic architects. I like to think of MacKenzie, say, as a Romantic visionary taking the classical forms of Colt onto another level that some may be thrilled by and others find disturbing.

Examples of classic courses I have not played   - Muirfield, Pinehurst 2
Examples of Romantic  courses I have not played   - Cypress Point, Pine Valley (yes, I know Colt had some involvement in that one)

Cheers

[T_MacWood]

Matt
"Tillinghast, Thomas, Ross, Flynn, yada, yada, yada..... I turn this over to those "in the know" because I am ignorant on the subject and require a bit of schooling. Thanks!"

I detect a somewhat sarcastic mocking tone. I know you often look at things in a very simplistic black and white way, but when it comes to art unfortunately its not that simple. If you are looking for a definable style you will be disappointed. Really there is no such thing as classic golf architecture.

To be honest I am not fond of the term classic or classical or golden age when describing golf architecture, it suggests the formalized designs inspired by Greek and Roman aesthetics. If you look back at what influenced the golf architects between 1900 and WWII it certainly wasn't the symmetry and formality of Classic architecture, it was the irregularity and natural tendencies found on the old evolved links. Those links were their inspiration along with the influence of contemporary design with its roots in the Arts&Craft movement -- the antithesis of Classic ideals.

As others have said the use of the term 'classic' in golf architecture is meant to imply designs that are enduring. There are certain designs or artistic expressions that are timeless: Dickens, a Mercedes gull-wing, Beethoven's Fifth, winged-tip shoes, the Morris chair, a Bic pen, Beef Bourguignonne, the Tiffany lamp, a Ross golf course. We know not every golf course Ross designed was a classic, but generally a very high percentage endure, not unlike Dickens' work.

Not every course designed between 1900 and 1937 is a classic, some are pretty bad. Some of the best architects of that era produced some mediocre golf courses, and some architects of that era didn't produce any outstanding courses -- but it is acknowledged a large number from that era did produce excellent designs.

Some other names you did not cite: Stanley Thompson, Herbert Fowler, Harry Colt, Herbert Strong, Tom Simpson, Walter Travis, Perry Maxwell, William Langford, CH Alison and several others. I would recommend learning more about these men and their tendencies. You play so many courses, both new and old, but you appear to only compare the merits of these courses in relationship to the strengths and weaknesses of your game. I think you would get so much more out of your visits if you studied the thoughts, methods and design tendencies of these 'classic' architects.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW;

You REmake a very good point there about the older meaning of the word "classic" in architecture--a point you properly made in your excellent "Arts and Crafts" pieces (which are in the "In My Opinion" section--and which everyone interested in this thread should read).

Classic in that context, architecturally anyway, certainly did mean the formal lines of the Greek and Roman building architecture.

However, I think most today think of the term "classic" mostly as something meaning just "old". Most have forgotten or never understood the Greek and Roman building architectural meaning of "classic" as architecturally "formal".

That's why I think when people talk about "classic" golf architecture today a better point to make is how synonymous the Golden Age of architecture's classic meaning is to the idea of strategy or of increased "strategic" golf architecture.

And frankly, since modern architecture began to evolve so much away from some of those Golden Age strategic principles that in making a distinction between the Golden Age era (sometimes synonymously referred to as the "Classic" era) and the modern age or today the best thing to do would seem to be to make the point or distinction t in the context of "strategic" or not.

Ironically, using the context of "formal" (the old Greek and Roman architectural meaning of "classic) it would seem today that modern architecture might be a lot more "formal" (classic) than the architecture of what some refer to as "classic"--the more randomly strategic architecture of the so-called Golden Age of architecture.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris C:

Your point about the application of "classic courses" in regards to Pete Dye is well taken. That's right -- only a certain few courses in Pete's portfoilo would merit such a linkage to the term.

Conversely, let's also keep in mind there are plenty of dog courses that Tillie, Ross, Flynn, et al also designed too but sometimes people automatically concede that if a major league designer from the 20's was involved then it must be some sort of "classic." Some of these former courses aren't around today because you'll likely find them under black top of some strip mall or housing development.

Before all the dogs begin to bark about Ward's last statement on the design masters of yesteryear -- although all of their designs aren't "classic" the others that are still in existence may be good or even just functional in their approach. Nothing bad about that whatsoever. Just not "classic."

Mike S:

I like the definition and in the juxtaposition of the word "golf course." I'm glad you inserted classic without reference to the notion that such courses must be old or only from a specific period of time. There is much in modern golf design today that merits close inspection for receiving such a "classic" designation. Plenty of people on GCA wax on about the Cypress Point's, Winged Foot's, et al, and they deserve the highest respect they get, however, modern design is also very good to excellent in spots as a number of modern architects today are attempting and accomplishing in a number of their efforts the newest "classic" courses.

[Chris_Clouser]

Matt,

I agree with your statement.  I think I mentioned that in the analogy of the Maxwell courses that I used as examples.  

I often wonder what courses by Tillie, Ross and others people would often call dogs. In researching Maxwell I saw a couple on my travels that probably were adequate at best.  He had about 8 to 10 that I would call classic, because of how I would use the term, and a large number that were very nice courses that fit the setting extremely well that I would term more of traditional Maxwell courses.  

[Forrest Richardson]

classic course   -- A golf course built in the early 1900s through 1940s, or even earlier, which exhibits golf course design traits common to courses of these early eras; such traits include natural use of landforms, simple earthmoving techniques, and bold hazards; also a course of recent vintage which exhibits such traits, although such a course is more appropriately a “modern classic”

comments please? what would you add or subtract?

[Matt_Ward]

Forrest:

Why does your classic course definition fixate on time? Can't courses built recently (within the last 20-30 years) count as well?

I see people are throwing in a further differentiation such as "modern classic." Why the need for additional clarification?

If a course is "classic" can it not be classic period irrespective of when it was build or who designed it?

[Forrest Richardson]

Why? I feel most people would associate "classic" with the same notion we have with the term "classic car". In fact, in Arizona a "classic car" is defined as one built prior to 1973 -- it must be 30-years old. "Classic" without subject to time is classic of a different nature. The word, I feel, becomes too many things to too wide of a definition in this case. But that's just my view.

[A_Clay_Man]

Forrest- I'd agree that limiting yourself to a timeframe is just that limiting.

I would like to see some reference to the artform, perhaps in the same context with the natural landforms.

Here in the land of unenlightment I have heard our super use the term when describing older courses back east. I think he mis-uses it, as any course with an open green front and turf tee to green.

[Forrest Richardson]

I may have been misunderstood. And, this being the first time that has ever happened, please allow me to respond.

A "classic course", I beleive, is one which is older and indicative of the design style which is regarded as solid and representative of the celebrated courses preserved, or desired to be preserved, of the early 1900s through the 1940s.

I believe it goes without saying that such courses have character, charm and strategy. But all the qualities in the world will not elevate a course to classic status unless it is old. While there are example of classic-style courses, these are not yet true 'classics'.

[Matt_Ward]

Let me point out that if one substitutes the word "great" for "classic" the notion that a course must be defined by some unknown age equation is really irrelevant. Let me give you an example from baseball -- Barry Bonds is a great baseball player -- I don't have to wait for him to retire in a few years to know this -- NOW!

The same holds true for such courses as Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes which, although they are young, are true classics and great by any definition one can muster. They are -- in my opinion, two of the very best "new" courses to have opened in the USA in the last 30 years.

I don't doubt one has to be VERY CAREFUL about throwing such terms as "great" around because so many people use the term so loosely. It's no different than the word "classic."

I just don't see how age converys some sort of unique and / or special status.

[T_MacWood]

Matt
Thanks for the warning about throwing the words 'classic' or 'great' around too loosely. I thought you said you weren't clear about the use of the term 'classic'.

I don't agree that great and classic are synonimous. I don't believe I've run across a baseball player (or golfer) being referred to as 'classic.'

Babe Ruth, classic ballplayer? No. Babe Ruth baseball great.

The hit and run or the squeeze play are classic baseball strategies. Wrigley Field and Fenway Park are classic ballparks. For me classic is endurring. I hope this helps.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom M:

Look, if you want to quibble on the application of words so be it. My point was a simple one -- a "classic" course does not have be so identified SIMPLY or DISTINCTLY because of some ill-defined time factor. We have classic courses that have opened in the last 30-40 years. I just mentioned Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes -- you also include such Pete Dye gems as The Golf Club and Teeth of the Dog, as just two more examples.

I think some people fixate on the 20's and say these are the "classics" and leave plenty out of the mix. Just an opinion ... remember I'm not a sharp-eyed historian -- I'm just part of the Joe Sixpack crowd that learned to play 2-irons off hardpan at the local muni!