Any thoughts?

[Tom Birkert]

I'd be interested to know what people think could be done to change the hole below - or indeed if you think changes are needed at all. It is 292 yards from point to point and plays ever so slightly downhill.

I have some thoughts of my own which I will post a bit later on.

I hope I've managed to post the picture correctly and if so, that it's not too big etc. I'm trying this for the first time!

Edit: It is indeed a par 4. The green is two tiered, but pretty flat apart from that.

[Bill_McBride]

I think it looks pretty good, although some tree cutting on both sides wouldn't hurt.  There's enough room between the fronting bunkers for the longer guys to go for the green, and enough room in front of those bunkers for a sensible lay up.  Hopefully there's enough slope and contour on the green to challenge or else it's going to be a very routine birdie or disappointing par for good players.  And hopefully the bunkers are all deep enough to penalize those who go for broke and aren't straight enough to avoid the bunkers.

All in all it's a pretty attractive short par 4 to me at 292 yards.

I love the way the following tees are right by the green.

[Will MacEwen]

Tom - based on the picture and the info, it looks pretty easy for longish hitters to aim over the small left bunkers and try to hit it on or near the green, leaving an up and down for a birdie attempt.  I am assuming it is a par 4.

The only real disincentive to pounding the driver looks to be the bunker on the right.  

If the green was raised it might be easier to hit and hold from 90 yards than from 20, which adds risk into bombing the driver.

[David Amarnek]

Tom,
First, hope you are doing well.  Oakmont is still fresh in my mind!
I agree with the need for some significant tree cutting.  What's behind the green other than more trees?
My first impression is that it is a strong hole for such a short par 4.
Cheers,
David

[Scott Warren]

Tom,

If it were me, I'd move the RHS greenside trap to the front right of the green and shift the LHS fairway trap into the ideal line between the tee and A1 line into the green at a 200yd carry, but having not played the hole, that might be a rubbish suggestion!

cheers,
Scott

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

As it is, the easier shot is to the left and it appears to open up the green. Shouldn't the braver shot open up the green?

It might be a good idea to switch the fairway bunkers to the opposite sides of the fairway. If the green can be reached from the tee, the tee of the following hole is a bit close to the green, and this might be safery issue. If the right fairway bunker to moved across to the LHS, and the two smaller LHS bunkers moved to the RHS, it might make players play a bit more to the right. This would also give a more difficult approach to the green.

Dónal.

[Ben Stephens]

Tom,

Is this the 9th at Sunningdale - the pictures do not tell all - having watched the Senior British Open on TV this hole was driven by the majority of the seniors why? - it is downhill from the three fairway bunkers - the green is a two tier green with a big drop down the left slope onto the 10th tee. Many of the top seniors did get birdie but many others still only got par - Loren Roberts drove through the green on the left and duffed a chip into the greenside bunker and got up and down!

Scott the way you are trying to relocate the bunkers would not work well visually off the tee but the way you are initially suggesting  is similar to the 14th at Ganton and awesome slightly uphill short par 4.

Cheers

Ben

[henrye]

Reminds me of Sunny's 9th, which I really like.  At Sunningdale the green is slighly hidden from view to positive effect, so if you can alter the elevations in the middle of the fairway to get a similar impact I think that might work.  Depends on the lay of the land, which is hard to judge from the pic.

[TEPaul]

After a cursory glance at that hole I would be inclined to offer sort of the C&C approach and suggestion-----ie "Just leave it alone." 

[Tom Dunne]

My sense is that, if anything, I'd want to do a bit of tree removal on the right side rather than the left. Opening up that side a bit might encourage people to be a bit more casual with the driver and then have to play their approach from the narrower angle, or possibly even having to play a pitch backward to the green a la Rustic Canyon #3, which would be neat. The two greenside bunkers look considerably shallower than the fairway bunkers, which I find a bit odd, but all in all I think it looks like a fun hole.

[Carl Nichols]

Is that the next hole's tee right next to the green?  If so, it looks to be even less than 292 yards from the tee of this hole; should something be done to protect it? 

[Carl Rogers]

Me thinks it is a bit too easy for the bomber.  Is there a prevailing breeze?

Eliminate the most left side fairway bunker (standing from the tee facing the green).

Add a small deep pot 1 yard from the putting surface slightly left of center.  Make them think a little.  It might catch a cut shot.

[DMoriarty]

Hard to say without the contours.  Might work fine the way it is.  If not, then this might be fun. 

[Emil Weber]

It is indeed Sunningdale's 9th hole. Hole looks good to me except I think the RHS fairway bunker could be removed to make room for a safe drive.

[Alex Miller]

D,

That's a great alternative, but I don't really see a problem with the original.

Personally I would not make it shorter, but rather rap it around the current RHS greenside bunker so that every part of the hole could really be used. For instance, if the pin were in the left, one could lay up past the LHS fairway bunkers for the best angle, but if it's on the right, the right side becomes the preferred side.

Think 8 at Sand Hills, something along those lines.

[Emil Weber]

I like that idea Alex. It would be nice to see some photos of the hole by those who've played there?

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

They could restore the bunkers cut out of the ridge.  I think the green was redone at some point?  Trees could be cut back to open up some big views from up there.

It's a good risk reward driveable par 4 and I think suits many kinds of players, the green has a good angle to it.

Are more changes afoot at Sunningdale?

[Tom Birkert]

Thanks all for your comments. As far as I'm aware there are no changes planned, it's just a personal little bug bear of mine. I should state at this point I have no problem with half par holes, and I adore short par 4s - one of my favourite holes in golf is the 10th at Riviera and indeed that was one of the origins of this post. Also the 3rd and 11th at Sunningdale Old are great short par 4s, but the difference with them is that they make you think strategically - or present you with a very difficult pitch if you hit a bad drive.

I just think the hole is too easy. There's no strategy as everyone hits driver. No one lays up. As long as you carry the bunker on the left you have a very easy pitch up the green. Indeed in the summer it's often not even a driver but a fairway metal.

Personally I would like to see the lower tier of the green removed, the upper tier halved lengthways and the green contoured away from the player. I'd also make the greenside bunkers deeper.

In effect, what I'd like to see is make people think whether to hit driver or not and make the pitch a lot more difficult if you do hit a bad drive.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

Don't players get in trouble if they tweak a shot left?  Don't weaker players lay up short of the bunkers?

[Brian Phillips]

I don`t think the hole needs changing at all.

[Mike_Young]

Tom,
Looks good from the air...but if you are thinking length is a problem then why not create a major problem for "length w/o accuracy"?  Say widen the area on the right side of the fairway and past the green to 320yds etc.........raise the right side of the green and slope basically from right to left..deep pots on left of green and bunker entire right side...enhance/widen the landing area over the two little bunkers on left side of fwy....then only safe bet is to not get green high on the tee shot....if you sucker them with large landing area on right hand side many will hit driver but rarely have an approach shot worth a damn....JMO

[Bill_McBride]

Tom,
Looks good from the air...but if you are thinking length is a problem then why not create a major problem for "length w/o accuracy"?  Say widen the area on the right side of the fairway and past the green to 320yds etc.........raise the right side of the green and slope basically from right to left..deep pots on left of green and bunker entire right side...enhance/widen the landing area over the two little bunkers on left side of fwy....then only safe bet is to not get green high on the tee shot....if you sucker them with large landing area on right hand side many will hit driver but rarely have an approach shot worth a damn....JMO

That's pretty much a mirror image of #15 at World Woods Pine Barrens.  The safe play out to the "Elysian Fields" on the left leaves a very difficult pitch with the slope running steeply away from you.  Probably the second coolest hole on the course.

[Ben Sims]

Tom,
Looks good from the air...but if you are thinking length is a problem then why not create a major problem for "length w/o accuracy"?  Say widen the area on the right side of the fairway and past the green to 320yds etc.........raise the right side of the green and slope basically from right to left..deep pots on left of green and bunker entire right side...enhance/widen the landing area over the two little bunkers on left side of fwy....then only safe bet is to not get green high on the tee shot....if you sucker them with large landing area on right hand side many will hit driver but rarely have an approach shot worth a damn....JMO

Dead serious when I say i was thinking the same "backwards" concept.  All I would do is shift the right hand fairway "kidney" bunker over to the left up next the pair on the left to create a bottle concept.  Then I would add 30 yards of fairway up the right side.  Slope the green so that approaches from that long and right landing area were very difficult, and the 100 yard pitch from short of the fairway bunkers is perferred.

[Paul_Turner]

If the back tee was brought forward 40 yds to 250 and the hole was a par 3, then the hole would be deemed too difficult rather than too easy.

[Norbert P]

A little risk to counter the spoonfed reward.