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John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #325 on: March 04, 2004, 05:07:31 PM »
Is your Rater Police an elected post, or self-appointed?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2004, 05:07:48 PM by John_Conley »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #326 on: March 04, 2004, 05:09:16 PM »
Rater Police;

Put your name on your anonymous cowardly post and I'll be happy to reply.  

Nevermind, I know who you are anyway.      

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #327 on: March 04, 2004, 05:16:39 PM »
Rater Police;

Put your name on your anonymous cowardly post and I'll be happy to reply.  

Nevermind, I know who you are anyway.      

It's the reply in bold that gives it away.  Only one person around here does that.  
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Mike_Cirba

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #328 on: March 04, 2004, 05:19:03 PM »
mdugger;

No, it's not Patrick.  

John;

Give me a break.  If I know who it is, I can choose whether or not to reply.

I see no obligation to share with anyone else.

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #329 on: March 04, 2004, 05:30:14 PM »


MDUGGER- what happened to your other tasteless post?  Now we get that the method of communicating sounds like someone.  Is that any different than your land surrounding Sandpines fiasco.  Pat M. has always conducted himself with dignity on this board, even someone like you can't bring him down.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #330 on: March 04, 2004, 05:46:02 PM »
Mike Cirba, JakaB, Hamilton B Hearst,

It's not unusual that MDugger is off by a mile,
or 10 miles or 50 miles,
He just seems to lack a sense of direction.

But, as a sportsman, I'd be willing to open up another betting window, if he's interested.

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #331 on: March 04, 2004, 05:50:03 PM »
Yes, I am the Rater Police.  Sue me.

I found it to be a name in which I knew I could get some answers with.

Since I had been flogged by nearly every rater for stating an opinionand asking some questions I felt it was necessary to assume an "annonywuss" name.

Mike Cirba,

I think you are a fine gentleman and I don't question your personal integrity as I don't with most of the rater poters here.  I simply see your system as flawed and definitely open for criticism and skepticism.  I meant no personal offense.  I simply knew I could not get any answers if I posted under my own name.

On a personal note, it does bother me that people uninvolved in the betterment of the game get free rounds of golf.  I know it is the individual course's decision on who to comp and who not to.  I just think it reeks of a good old boys club.  You become a rater more on who you know than what you know. That is another fundamental flaw I see with it.

Anyway, RATE AWAY GENTLEMEN!  


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

MasterRater

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #332 on: March 04, 2004, 06:06:33 PM »
Did some ask for me?  Oops, wrong board ...



Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #333 on: March 04, 2004, 06:09:11 PM »
Now THAT's comedy!
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #334 on: March 04, 2004, 06:12:44 PM »
MDugger,
Yes, I am the Rater Police.  Sue me.

I found it to be a name in which I knew I could get some answers with.

I'm not just posting this to show that you're wrong, again, and that your assertions and accusations continue to be wild, irresponsible and without merit, but to also help you in the future with your ability to marry facts to your positions.

The sole basis of your allegation was that I was the only one who uses CAPS, yet you didn't even take the time to verify the statement you used as the basis for your position, or, perhaps you just couldn't remember.
In this thread alone, several people used CAPS.

Mike Cirba:      posts # 301 & 307
Shivas            posts # 77, 218, 243, 258 & 287
Ian Andrew      post  # 104
John V            post  # 111

Please, try to get it right....... just once.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2004, 06:14:50 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #335 on: March 04, 2004, 07:26:28 PM »
Jeff;

Your writing style and passion gave you away.  I also figured if I got insulting that you would come clean.   ;)

No offense taken.  We simply disagree, by wide margins, on this issue.  I respect your opinions as well, and often agree with you.

I understand you had some bad experiences with some raters who were jerks, and I know how that can sour one's perspective, very legitimately I might add.

I also think your other psuedonyms, like the infamous Sgt. Shanks, are hysterical at times, so let's both try to keep some humor and good-natured spirit in our discussions.

Thanks for stepping up.

Mike
« Last Edit: March 04, 2004, 07:27:39 PM by Mike_Cirba »

freebie the rater

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #336 on: March 04, 2004, 07:33:38 PM »
Why has a rater not posted their individual ratings. Is this not allowed?  

Dear Hammy,

It is not forbidden.  It is simply to annoy you.  

Also, you must mean "his or her" individual ratings.  You simply cannot mix singular and plural like that and expect to be understood.  Thank goodness that I could figure it out contextually.  ;D


JohnV

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #337 on: March 04, 2004, 07:43:32 PM »
Patrick, In an 873 word post I capitalize 3 words for emphasis and you cite me as for capitalizing.

Jeff, I can see that we need both a means test and a knowledge test before you might be satisfied with the rating panels.

Perhaps we can get Jim Harrick Jr to design the test:

1) How many holes does a championship course have?
 1) 9
 2) 18
 3) As many as they could fit in.
 4) As many as it takes to fill the Albert Hall.

2) On a par 4 hole how many strokes should it take to get in the hole?
1) 2
2) 4
3) 6
4) Whats a hole?

3) Is a course built in 1900 a Modern course?
1) Yes
2) No
3) Depends if it's been "restored" or not
4) Is that a meat course or a fish course?

4) What is a bunker?
1) An area of the course filled with sand
2) Something like a sand trap only different
3) The place where Adolph Hitler died
4) A place to store coal on a ship

5) Golf started ...
1) at the first hole
2) in Scotland
3) in America like all great things
4) when the Scots got tired of chasing the sheep

6) The Good Doctor was ...
1) Alaistar MacKenzie
2) Marcus Welby
3) Hawkeye Pierce
4) The one that delivered George Jason Pazin last night

7) A Superintendent ...
1) is in charge of the local high school
2) is the boss of the detectives in a British mystery show
3) the guy who cuts the grass
4) the guy who bosses around the guy who cuts the grass

8) What color wine do you drink with a Classical Course?
1) Red
2) White
3) Rose
4) Green

9) What is a pot bunker?
1) Whatever the architect wants it to be
2) A place for an angry man and his wedge
3) A low place to get high
4) Archie's belly

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #338 on: March 04, 2004, 09:08:06 PM »
"...Brauer and people like him..."  :o

Kelly,

For the most part, I am just like you, so what the heck are ya talkin about?  

I DO understand the impact of rankings.  For example, the first Giant's Ridge finished in the top 10 of the GD rankings, and if not for that, they probably wouldn't have been able to change travel habits of golfers to a new area of Minnesota.  The second course wouldn't have gotten built, and I wouldn't have designed it.  Nor, would I have designed Fortune Bay nearby, nor would the Quarry have gotten tte pre-opening pubs that it has (BTW, it also made the Celebrated Living List, for whatever thats worth)  

I also use any publicity I can get as a part of my personal sales pitch.

I just visited the JFK museum in Dallas for the first time, and it made me recall the hub-bub about whether the NFL should have played after the assassination or not.  That type of event puts these ratings into a bigger perspective, albeit, using a Texas size stretch for comparison.

So, when I say they aren't important, I'm talking in that sense, and in the sense that in every endeavor, someone somehow becomes an authority to conduct that endeavor.  In football, its the NFL, in golf ratings, it has become various magazines that seek to undertake the endeavor, simply because people are interested in it.  

We can question the rules of the NFL when our team doesn't win, or the rules of the ratings game when our coures don't win.  But, there have to be some rules.  Not only, as some have pointed out, can no rating be totally objective, and fair, no rating system can be.

Besides that, no team wins the Super Bowl every year, and no architect wins every rating contest.  Luckily, there are plenty to go around, so that each of us can get that thrill once in a while.  Of course, if you won every year, it wouldn't be such a thrill anyway.

If I may be so bold, I think I have a pretty healthy attitude about it.

I submit many of my courses, when I think they are worthy.  (Funny story - I didn't initally submit the Legacy last year, and it ended up finishing 10th in GD, showing just exactly what I know about the ratings process, and some would add, golf architecture itself ::))  I have had a few make the GD list, and think I know when my course is worthy of ranking.

Then, like Ben Franklin, I expect the worst, so that any win is a joy.    However, there is a LOT of good architecture out there, so I usually don't expect the numbers to fall my way, but I admit that I have allowed myself to get dissapointed a few times.

I just don't allow myself to go negative on the system itself, like you, nor do I allow myself to go ballistic in public, like Geoff did! :P :-* :-\  (Again, I admit I may, I say may, have done it privately once or twice! >:()  You do great work.  I suggest you keep on keepin on.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

THuckaby2

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #339 on: March 04, 2004, 09:54:10 PM »
Hey Jeff Fortson - how are you gonna stand it being around so many of us at Rustic?  Need we watch our backs?

Just giving you a hard time.  Put me down as echoing what the wise Cirba said.  Hell, I too can sure understand it if you have a BIAS against raters, I likely would too if I were in your shoes.

See ya in a few weeks.  Methinks we will have some fun with this then....

TH

Frank_Stanger

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #340 on: March 04, 2004, 10:09:50 PM »
On the issue of conflicts of interest:

There is a significant body of academic research that speaks to this point.  It is research on what is known as "The Rule of Reciprocation."

I would first refer you to the book,"The Psychology of Influence and Persuasion" by Robert Cialdini, Ph.D.  In the book Dr. Cialdini writes:

"The Rule of Reciprocation says that we should try to repay, in kind, what another person has provided to us.  If a woman does us a favor, we should do her one in return; if a man sends us a birthday present, we should remember his birthday with a gift of  our own; if a couple invites us to a party, we should be sure to invite them to one of ours.  

"By virtue of the Rule of Reciprocity, then, we are OBLIGATED to the future repayment of favors, gifts, invitations and the like...  It is so widespread that after intensive study, sociologists such as Alvin Gouldner can report that there is no human society that does not subcribe to the rule."

Other research that verified and extended our understanding of the Rule of Reciprocity includes Kunz and Woolcott (1976), Leakey and Lewin (1978), Regan (1971) and Milgram and Sabini (1975).

Therefore, based on considerable academic research it would appear that raters accepting comps are likely to feel obligated to provide a favor in return - it is simply human nature.

Perhaps the raters who inhabit this site are extraordinary human beings capable of behavior contrary to the nature of our species.

But I think not.

Does this mean they rate courses unfairly?  No.  Does it mean comps create a possible conflict or influence behavior?  I'd say the academic evidence is very clear on that.


Keith Durrant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #341 on: March 04, 2004, 10:54:36 PM »
The absurdity of this thread remind one of:

Man: Ah. I'd like to have an argument, please.

     Receptionist: Certainly sir. Have you been here before?

     Man: No, I haven't, this is my first time.

     Receptionist: I see. Well, do you want to have just one argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?

     Man: Well, what is the cost?

     Receptionist: Well, It's one pound for a five minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten.

     Man: Well, I think it would be best if I perhaps started off with just the one and then see how it goes.

     Receptionist: Fine. Well, I'll see who's free at the moment.

     (Pause)

     Receptionist: Mr. DeBakey's free, but he's a little bit conciliatory. Ahh yes, Try Mr. Barnard; room 12.

     Man: Thank you.

     (Walks down the hall. Opens door.)

     Mr Barnard: WHAT DO YOU WANT?

     Man: Well, I was told outside that...

     Mr Barnard: Don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings!

     Man: What?

     Mr Barnard: Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, pervert!!!

     Man: Look, I CAME HERE FOR AN ARGUMENT, I'm not going to just stand...!!

     Mr Barnard: OH, oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse.

     Man: Oh, I see, well, that explains it.

     Mr Barnard: Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.

     Man: Oh, Thank you very much. Sorry.

     Mr Barnard: Not at all.

     Man: Thank You. (Under his breath) Stupid git!!

     (Walk down the corridor)

     Man: (Knock)

     Mr Vibrating: Come in.

     Man: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?

     Mr Vibrating: I told you once.

     Man: No you haven't.

     Mr Vibrating: Yes I have.

     Man: When?

     Mr Vibrating: Just now.

     Man: No you didn't.

     Mr Vibrating: Yes I did.

     Man: You didn't

     Mr Vibrating: I did!

     Man: You didn't!

     Mr Vibrating: I'm telling you I did!

     Man: You did not!!

     Mr Vibrating: Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?

     Man: Oh, just the five minutes.

     Mr Vibrating: Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.

     Man: You most certainly did not.

     Mr Vibrating: Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you.

     Man: No you did not.

     Mr Vibrating: Yes I did.

     Man: No you didn't.

     Mr Vibrating: Yes I did.

     Man: No you didn't.

     Mr Vibrating: Yes I did.

     Man: No you didn't.

     Mr Vibrating: Yes I did.

     Man: You didn't.

     Mr Vibrating: Did.

     Man: Oh look, this isn't an argument.

     Mr Vibrating: Yes it is.

     Man: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.

     Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.

     Man: It is!

     Mr Vibrating: It is not.

     Man: Look, you just contradicted me.

     Mr Vibrating: I did not.

     Man: Oh you did!!

     Mr Vibrating: No, no, no.

     Man: You did just then.

     Mr Vibrating: Nonsense!

     Man: Oh, this is futile!

     Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.

     Man: I came here for a good argument.

     Mr Vibrating: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.

     Man: An argument isn't just contradiction.

     Mr Vibrating: It can be.

     Man: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.

     Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.

     Man: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.

     Mr Vibrating: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.

     Man: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'

     Mr Vibrating: Yes it is!

     Man: No it isn't!

     Man: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.

     (short pause)

     Mr Vibrating: No it isn't.

     Man: It is.

     Mr Vibrating: Not at all.

     Man: Now look.

     Mr Vibrating: (Rings bell) Good Morning.

     Man: What?

     Mr Vibrating: That's it. Good morning.

     Man: I was just getting interested.

     Mr Vibrating: Sorry, the five minutes is up.

     Man: That was never five minutes!

     Mr Vibrating: I'm afraid it was.

     Man: It wasn't.

     (Pause)

     Mr Vibrating: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.

     Man: What?!

     Mr Vibrating: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

     Man: Yes, but that was never five minutes, just now. Oh come on!

     Mr Vibrating: (Hums)

     Man: Look, this is ridiculous.

     Mr Vibrating: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!

     Man: Oh, all right.

     (pays money)

     Mr Vibrating: Thank you. (short pause)

     Man: Well?

     Mr Vibrating: Well what?

     Man: That wasn't really five minutes, just now.

     Mr Vibrating: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.

     Man: I just paid!

     Mr Vibrating: No you didn't.

     Man: I DID!

     Mr Vibrating: No you didn't.

     Man: Look, I don't want to argue about that.

     Mr Vibrating: Well, you didn't pay.

     Man: Aha. If I didn't pay, why are you arguing? I Got you!

     Mr Vibrating: No you haven't.

     Man: Yes I have. If you're arguing, I must have paid.

     Mr Vibrating: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.

     Man: Oh I've had enough of this.

     Mr Vibrating: No you haven't.

     Man: Oh Shut up.

     (Walks down the stairs. Opens door.)


Mike_Cirba

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #342 on: March 04, 2004, 11:19:15 PM »
rottcodd;

Did you type all of that??

I'm hoping you cut and pasted!   ;D

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #343 on: March 04, 2004, 11:58:34 PM »
wow
#nowhitebelt

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #344 on: March 05, 2004, 12:04:48 AM »
Rott,

Thanks for the Python fix.  Strike up Liberty Bell March (the ring on my cell phone).


BTW, this thread is now 2nd on the list of # of posts and 3rd in # of views since the board changed formats Nov 30, 2001.  :-[
« Last Edit: March 05, 2004, 12:07:07 AM by Scott_Burroughs »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #345 on: March 05, 2004, 12:11:05 AM »
Scott - At the risk of extending the thread 2 more notches. What is the longest?

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #346 on: March 05, 2004, 12:20:00 AM »
Sean,

Go up to the "golfclubatlas.com" folder/link above, then click on [more stats] under "YaBB SE Stats"

You see the Top 10 posters (by # posts), the top 10 threads by both # posts and # views.  Other goodies there as well.

Also under the "golfclubatlas.com" folder/link page above, click on the "total members" number (when logged in - currently 2566) to see all registered users by various sorts.  There you can click on the "View Top 15 posters" link to see 5 additional names.  You're 200+ posts away from 15th.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #347 on: March 05, 2004, 12:20:25 AM »
rottcodd —

Credit Monty Python, or I will.

But, in point, I believe your posting of the 'pointless' argument actually disproves your point...while the Python script is pointless, the continuing discussion about rating is not. Many of the comments here will be bypassed, but in reading through the posts there are many good points which will be taken into account as rating systems for golf courses are re-tooled and tweaked.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2004, 12:20:48 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #348 on: March 05, 2004, 12:24:14 AM »
"Credit Monty Python, or I will."

Oh, Forrest, the irony.

"Many of the comments here will be bypassed"

....such as my mention of Python above.   ::)   ;D
« Last Edit: March 05, 2004, 12:25:32 AM by Scott_Burroughs »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #349 on: March 05, 2004, 07:56:07 AM »
On the issue of conflicts of interest:

There is a significant body of academic research that speaks to this point.  It is research on what is known as "The Rule of Reciprocation."

I would first refer you to the book,"The Psychology of Influence and Persuasion" by Robert Cialdini, Ph.D.  In the book Dr. Cialdini writes:

"The Rule of Reciprocation says that we should try to repay, in kind, what another person has provided to us.  If a woman does us a favor, we should do her one in return; if a man sends us a birthday present, we should remember his birthday with a gift of  our own; if a couple invites us to a party, we should be sure to invite them to one of ours.  

"By virtue of the Rule of Reciprocity, then, we are OBLIGATED to the future repayment of favors, gifts, invitations and the like...  It is so widespread that after intensive study, sociologists such as Alvin Gouldner can report that there is no human society that does not subcribe to the rule."

Other research that verified and extended our understanding of the Rule of Reciprocity includes Kunz and Woolcott (1976), Leakey and Lewin (1978), Regan (1971) and Milgram and Sabini (1975).

Therefore, based on considerable academic research it would appear that raters accepting comps are likely to feel obligated to provide a favor in return - it is simply human nature.

Perhaps the raters who inhabit this site are extraordinary human beings capable of behavior contrary to the nature of our species.

But I think not.

Does this mean they rate courses unfairly?  No.  Does it mean comps create a possible conflict or influence behavior?  I'd say the academic evidence is very clear on that.



Very interesting stuff.

Not so funny as Monty Python -- but possibly more on point.

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

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