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Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #175 on: March 02, 2004, 02:07:29 AM »
You really cannot run a ranking any other way.  You can't explain to 16,900 courses "why" they were left off a list, because ultimately the only reason is that they didn't get as high a score as the top 100.

That's it, in a nutshell.  Rustic Canyon isn't on the list because it didn't earn as many points.  If you're that enamored with Rustic Canyon (which I'm looking forward to playing shortly), then you'll likely enjoy the others ranked above it.

And I concur with Tom: The raters aren't obligated to explain their selections or defend their rankings.  Frankly, we should thank them for their opinion and move on.  At least they had the fortitude to express it.

I also don't think it's a travesty if raters are provided meals, golf balls, or hotel accomodations.  It seems like these raters are already personally incurring a lot of expenses--even if it's just their time.  This seems more like a reimbursement than a benefit.

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #176 on: March 02, 2004, 07:54:23 AM »
Hey - a new over/under is up from 8 to 12!

From a numbers standpoint, if I were told that a measurement was normally distributed (guassian) and someone game me ten individual samples - nine of them were 8s and one of them was a 2, and told me to determine the moments, I can do one of two things: determine the statistics from those ten samples or apply some measurement judgement, delete the outlier and then calculate the moments.

I am a big fan (and it has been suggested by a number of folks on GCA that this should be applied to the rating numbers) of deleting the high and low numbers for ratings and then calculating an average, SD, variance, etc.  The problem is, you need lots of samples.

In research, we delete statistisical outliers all the time.  It is simply good scientific practice as it reduces bias, better defines trends and clarifies conclusions.

JC


DMoriarty

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #177 on: March 02, 2004, 11:51:48 AM »
Tom D. and Carlyle.

Please let me clarify.  I am not asking why Rustic did not receive high enough ratings to make the the list.  If it did not recieve high enough ratings, then that is the explanation.   It would be reassuring to know that this was the case for this year and last year.  

But unfortunately, there has been plenty of talk that this was not the case.  The talk is that rater(s) were pressured to change their ratings and that the minimum number of ratings necessary to make the list was raised at the last minute to keep Rustic off--  that, at least last year, the ratings were manipulated by the magazine.  Having met Brad and Jonathan, I have trouble believing this.  But the sources of this info are usually reliable, so I am left to wonder as are others, I am sure.  

And it sure seems simple enough to clear up.  Golfweek could just tell us whether any votes have been changed or discarded (for any course), whether people have been pressured to give a certain range of scores, etc.  And if so they could perhaps explain why.  I dont doubt there is a viable explanation.

___________________

 Jonathan,

My college statistics professor didnt speak english; between that and my feeblemindedness, I am no whiz at statistical analysis.   So please correct me if I am wrong.  

It seems you are saying that ridding a sample of outlying, anomalous data is generally a good idea, but doesnt work well with small sample sizes.   Would you consider the ratings to be such a small sample size?  Is this type of adjustment sometimes made to the ratings?  




Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #178 on: March 02, 2004, 11:57:37 AM »
Pat, we just have different hypotheses on possible effects of regionalism.

Jeff Goldman
That was one hellacious beaver.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #179 on: March 02, 2004, 12:32:11 PM »
There are many variables. Before advertising — and golf architecture — I spent a few years working for a market research company. Statistics and fair survey reporting were the bread and butter of my work in that field.

The most important variable to "combat" regionalism is a diverse and statistically sound distribution of raters. But, even this poses problems: For example, raters in the East may rate differently in winter months as they may have a lovefest with anything on which the sun shines. Raters in the west have their own set of quirks. Because raters in sunbelt cities have a year-long golf season, it may be a consideration to have a variable built to acount for this.

I am not suggesting specific solutions, nor do I even suspect or suggest that the distribution of raters is not correct. I'm only pointing out that this is a very scientific match problem. From what I've seen and know, it is being handled very well.

But...it is exceedingly important that new courses get focused attention in the rating process. Without this the lists are dramatically less meaningful.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2004, 12:32:49 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

JohnV

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #180 on: March 02, 2004, 03:05:19 PM »
This is why the USGA has Course Rating Calibration Seminars for its raters.  I attended one this year and it does open your eyes in many areas.  

I look on the Golfweek outings as a similar kind of thing.  I believe that these are opportunities to educate us, de-regionalize us and get us looking at courses in a similar fashion.  Of course, there are those here who probably would look at this as a way to influence our votes.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #181 on: March 02, 2004, 07:20:54 PM »
What's the over and under number of pages this will go?  I guess about 8... ::)

Dick - you are right in the middle of your prediction right now ...

Speaking of rankings, do you think that Gonzaga, now #4 in the county is worthy of a #1 seed in the Big Dance?  At least a #2 seed ... I wonder what Huckaby thinks ...
« Last Edit: March 02, 2004, 07:29:52 PM by Mike Benham »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #182 on: March 02, 2004, 07:24:14 PM »
Speaking of rankings, do you think that Gonzaga, now #4 in the county is worthy of a #1 seed in the Big Dance?  At least a #2 seed ... I wonder what Huckaby thinkgs ...

Mike,

I saw Gonzaga play St Joe's in November. Sorry, two rounds and out, and I am a Jesuit fan !

Brian_Gracely

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #183 on: March 02, 2004, 07:33:43 PM »

Speaking of rankings, do you think that Gonzaga, now #4 in the county is worthy of a #1 seed in the Big Dance?  At least a #2 seed ... I wonder what Huckaby thinks ...

They have the chance to go into the tournament without a win against any of the other teams, as Georgia, Missouri and Maryland are on the bubble.  There is NO WAY that merits a #1 seed.
Quote
« Last Edit: March 02, 2004, 07:34:32 PM by Brian_Gracely »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #184 on: March 02, 2004, 07:34:14 PM »
Mike,

I saw Gonzaga play St Joe's in November. Sorry, two rounds and out, and I am a Jesuit fan !

Hmmm ... since both schools are run by the Jesuits ...

And November basketball is quite a bit different then March (or April) ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #185 on: March 02, 2004, 08:03:18 PM »
Mike,

Gonzaga - The same "slow white guys" are there in March as in November. PS. I am one so I should know. :D

St Joe's - No size in the front court which they will need once they see a big team. (I went to St Joe's Prep). Obviously a great back court.

BC - (my alma mater) First or second round team at best.


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #186 on: March 02, 2004, 08:07:01 PM »
Mike B., LOL ;D ;D ;D  Like all the other gab fests, it has devolved to sports and next women... ::)  holding on page 8! ;)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #187 on: March 02, 2004, 08:16:36 PM »
Mike,

Gonzaga - The same "slow white guys" are there in March as in November. PS. I am one so I should know. :D

St Joe's - No size in the front court which they will need once they see a big team. (I went to St Joe's Prep). Obviously a great back court.

BC - (my alma mater) First or second round team at best.


I too have had 8-years of Jesuit education, at Bellarmine College Prep and Santa Clara ....

Backcourt (and perimeter) play can carry a team at least a few round deep into the tournament, and both St. Joe's and Gonzaga have solid scoring and playmaking guards ... maybe these 2 Jesuit powerhouses can meet in the finals, (although someone will probably break a story about a Jesuit Priest sex-abuse scandal) ...

Mike

Ps:  And ask Huckaby about his love for the Zags ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

THuckaby2

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #188 on: March 02, 2004, 08:51:58 PM »
How the hell did you guys get on college basketball?

And Mike B. is cruel.  You guys think I'm all sweetness and light and aw shucks... you have hit upon the subject where I lose all pretense of niceness - Gonzaga.  To say I hate them is, well, an understatement for which I can come up with no golf comparison.  In fact hate is not a strong enough word.  There's no rational reason for it, it's pure envy, given they stole the thunder that but for stupidity might have belonged to my beloved Santa Clara Broncos.  So it's truly Benham, fellow Bronco grad, who is the nice and rational one, given he harbors no hate for the "Zags."

God I hate them.  Did I mention I hate them?  Hey, get this, I hate them.

BTW, they're gonna get a 3 seed, maybe a 2, and they're could well lose in the first round to the "right" kind of team.  They also could win the whole freakin' thing, too, which might be good for some here, as it would cause to me implode into a catatonic state and never post here or anywhere again.

OK, that's my rant.  Now back to harping on golf ratings lists...

TH
ps - Go St. Joe's!  Now there's a team to love.

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #189 on: March 02, 2004, 08:55:56 PM »
You guys think I'm all sweetness and light and aw shucks... you have hit upon the subject where I lose all pretense of niceness - Gonzaga.  To say I hate them is, well, an understatement for which I can come up with no golf comparison.

Damn.  My beloved Georgia Bulldogs had Gonzaga on the ropes; but, alas, we fell in overtime.  We'll be sure to beat them when we're off probation.  ;D

C

THuckaby2

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #190 on: March 02, 2004, 08:58:11 PM »
I wasn't gonna mention that, Carlyle.  I watched that game and it damn near ruined my Christmas season.  You let me down, man.   :'(

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #191 on: March 02, 2004, 09:47:17 PM »
I wasn't gonna mention that, Carlyle.  I watched that game and it damn near ruined my Christmas season.  You let me down, man.   :'(

Maybe this will help:

15 December 2002
Gonzaga   28  55     83
Georgia   50  45     95

17 December 2002
Georgia   45  46     91
Pepperdine   42  32     74


Nick_Ficorelli

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #192 on: March 02, 2004, 10:17:41 PM »
Whoever managed to change this thread to a diffrent sport entirely I say..BRAVO!

THuckaby2

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #193 on: March 02, 2004, 11:33:11 PM »
Carlyle - thanks, but 2002 does little for me now!

 ;D

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #194 on: March 02, 2004, 11:46:30 PM »
How the hell did you guys get on college basketball?

And Mike B. is cruel.  You guys think I'm all sweetness and light and aw shucks... you have hit upon the subject where I lose all pretense of niceness - Gonzaga.  To say I hate them is, well, an understatement for which I can come up with no golf comparison.  In fact hate is not a strong enough word.  There's no rational reason for it, it's pure envy, given they stole the thunder that but for stupidity might have belonged to my beloved Santa Clara Broncos.  So it's truly Benham, fellow Bronco grad, who is the nice and rational one, given he harbors no hate for the "Zags."

God I hate them.  Did I mention I hate them?  Hey, get this, I hate them.


Huck - just wanted to show the treehouse gang that you are an opinionated, passionate SOB on at least 1 topic ... ;D

I don't think I'm rational, I just have my priorities in who I root for ... alma mater, local, same conference, west coast and finally, Jesuit (that's how St. Joe's slides in) ... hmmm, I wonder where Notre Dame fits into all this ... ;D
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #195 on: March 02, 2004, 11:50:52 PM »
Carlyle - thanks, but 2002 does little for me now!

It's all we have at UGA right now.  We just submitted our report to the NCAA.  We said: Guys, I think you may have missed a few violations!

If the Dawgs win tomorrow in Gainesville, and Saturday in Athens versus Vandy, then we're likely in the Tournament.  Otherwise, it's not looking good.  And then of course there's the matter of whether they'll let us play if we qualify... :o

Gyrogolf

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #196 on: March 03, 2004, 12:15:43 AM »
Gentlemen,

I do not see how this snit between Geoff and Brad is doing any good in advancing the core principles of the Treehouse. Agree or disagree, most of us share a similar desire for the greater glory of our game. Whether Rustic gets on Brad's list is a fairly minor issue.

It is easy to understand how some panelists would not rank Rustic as highly as others. It has little flash, a few obvious flaws and its salient qualities will go right over the head of any panelist not paying VERY close attention. This is one of those golf courses that you cannot simply tee it up for a breezy round on the way to Bel Air and fully grasp.

That stated, I am absolutely astonished at its purity of strategic expression. Every single hole had some twist that I found worthy of thought and study. I likened it to a Lahinch in that it has a magical simplicity that defies normal analysis. I won't bore the Treehouse with a hole-by-hole, but approach shots like #16, which must contend with the wash nibbling into the fairway from the right literally made my heart sing with gladness to be out there with the opportunity to try a creative approach.

Same goes for the last 100 yards on #9. . . . That may be one of the top ten best putting surface contours I have ever seen. Maybe #6 at NGLA is still the benchmark, but my 7-iron approach along the ground to Rustic's #9 was one of the most satisfying shots I've hit in recent memory.

Much of this silly pissing contest reminds me of the arguments surrounding Barona Creek. There are some similarities between the two designs. Anybody who knows me has figured out I am president of the Todd Eckenrode Fan Club. . . . . . in the same vein, I feel like Barona is as grossly under-rated as is Rustic.

But Jonathon can only report the numbers and the point of a panel is to solicit the opinions of a wide cross-section of players.

To expect that there will be absolutely no fudging near the bottom of the list is silly. Numbers can lie. There needs to be a person at the top with enough autocratic rule to correct flaws in the system. I do not condone nor condemn, that is just the way it is. The GD Panel has lots and lots of people, but the prevailing dogma/tone of the panel is a bit different. Not better, just different. I respect both.

With thousands of courses in this nation, the Top 100 seems a bit arbitrary. Cut it up as Modern, Classic etc etc and that is still too few. My personal hobby has always been finding hidden gems that may not crack the Top 100, but merit a Best in State ranking. My tastes do not run in line with prevailing opinions as a general statement, so a recitation of my personal Top 50 courses I've played would be far too eclectic.
 
Once again, we are going to run around the Mulberry Bush about whether the *experience* ought to be factored into the ranking of the golf course. That is a whole different issue, but it is a rare bird - and I like to think I am one - who can fully separate the two when evaluating a golf course.

Maybe Rustic suffers at the hands of this problem. So does Apache Stronghold, another course I could never tire of.

That stated, when you piece together a ranking list, the general public is not trained to make that distinction, so it is about show biz or architecture? Good question. Either way, I am with Tom Paul, there is a great big world of golf out there and there is plenty of room in the tent for Naccarato, an Armenian, guesst, Geoff, Wigler, Shooter, Shivas and the nice couple from Cleveland who think that Ted Robinson's "Aquatic Presentations" make the $200 green fees worth the jing.

Maybe we ought to try and work together instead of pecking at each other atop Mt. Hubris. . . . . .  
« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 12:18:18 AM by Gyrogolf »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #197 on: March 03, 2004, 12:27:09 AM »
I feel better now.  A Gyro fix.  

Gyro,

Where does The Pit fit in that Top 50?

ForkaB

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #198 on: March 03, 2004, 02:31:11 AM »
Good to see this evolving into a "March Madness" thread.  The over/under is now offically at 15, unless the Jesuit schools go home early......

PS--living over in Scotland I don't get much news on hoops in the local rags.  Can anybody tell me how Stanford is doing this year?  Thanks in advance. ;)

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Questions about the 2004 Golfweek list
« Reply #199 on: March 03, 2004, 05:02:57 AM »


PS--living over in Scotland I don't get much news on hoops in the local rags.  Can anybody tell me how Stanford is doing this year?  Thanks in advance. ;)

Rich,

You will be happy to hear that they are having a fine year. Stanford will be making it past the first round of the NCAA tournament into the second round, where they will then lose to a mid-major from the East Coast  :o . Congratulations, you should be proud that they will be making it out of the first round this year !!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 05:08:07 AM by Mike_Sweeney »

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