Flynn's Woodcrest

[TEPaul]

My old buddy from the GAP, Fred Ruttenberg, emailed me today saying there's been a good deal of discussion on here lately about some of Flynn's Eastern courses but no mention of his Woodcrest C.C which Fred's belonged to and been very central at for years.

That's true it hasn't been mentioned much. So what do those who know it think about Flynn's Woodcrest? Although certainly Fred will come on here and give us a clearer picture of Woodcrest's design evolution and its redesigns I do know the course lost a few holes early on to a road or a land sale and the club may be considering some alternatives at the course's closing holes.

I've played Woodcrest a fair amount and I sure do enjoy it and believe it is a challenge. Fred's always maintained for some reason the course is pretty hard to score well on for good players. I'm not sure I could say why that might be though, although probably so!

My take on Woodcrest is it has a very strong set of par 3s--each of which has some meaningful subtelty to it for a good variety of reasons.

Once you get past the 4th hole the golf course basically turns into a right to left drawer's golf course--and if you really want to maximize the shot values of those right to left holes the ability to hit a high draw would really pay off well (a shot I've never possessed!).

I've already described the par 3s and about the par 4s I'd say the longer ones are very solid holes, quite demanding on each at one point or another. Of the par 5s, the 9th and 13th are interesting and very different from one another and both are holes you definitely don't want to fall asleep on from tee shot to hole out! To be (hopefully) cordially critical, I think #2 and #11 (par 5s) need some kind of enhancement somehow. The answer to them may be to use somehow potential width on their left sides that's now in trees! (Talk to you about that some other time, Fred--it just occured to me and I'd like to see what kind of potential width there may be on the left sides of those two holes).

The shorter par 4s may be the weakness of the course, at least to me, if it has a weakness. A few of them are a little odd (like #15) but frankly fun for it! #6 I can't yet decide about--it used to be a short hole but got stretched quite a bit on the tee end and got a new green which really is frightening with certain pins! (I think this green is Fred's creation and he may have gotten a bit exuberant--I'm not certain but nearly so!). All I know is it can be intense and things can go seriously wrong on it when you're least expecting it. #18 is sort of a letdown for a closing hole and it seems a bit squashed into it's position somehow (maybe this is one they plan to deal with in that last few hole alteration--I just can't remember what the thought there is). The asset of #18 to me is it's complicated tee shot blindness but if you figure that out and negotiate it with a driver, 3 wood or iron it's a slide home!

Maybe I forgot something but if so I'll add.

So, who's played Woodcrest, who knows it and what are your comments on it? Fred Ruttenberg, by the way, is a real golf traveler, he's dedicatedly seen and played the great courses of the world and he wants this site to discuss Woodcrest.

Let's do it.

[A_Clay_Man]

Tom- Thanx for your descrpition of the course. However, I didn't get a sense of what creates the shot dictation. You state that after the 4th one needs a draw to ease ones playing of a majority of the holes. Is that created by trees? Doglegs? Both?

What is the sense when golfing Woodcrest? Topographically? And where is it?

thanx

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

I've wanted to get out and play Woodcrest with Fred for awhile now but we just haven't been able to get it together.  I hope to this year.  

Besides Flynn, what other architects (or others) did work there to come up with the present configuration?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Can't chat much, got a big snowstorm about to hit...

but here are some of my comments/clues from the AOTD #296 thread of Woodcrest:

Chainsaw, anyone?  This place needs it.  But if they cut them
down, they'd have to change their name.

Very good set of par 3's, especially on the front (on the right side).

Good rolling property amidst a mostly flat section of this state

Oft-bunkered hole just left of that must be a practice hole.

Dogleg par 4 17th, headed south of corner of parking lot, has
a reverse-cant fairway, like #17 at Olympic-Lake.



and clues from Wayne Morrison:

Correct that this course's name is apt due to the proliferation
of a certain evident feature.  These are some pretty small
greens with atypical bunkering.  This started out as a public
course but was privatized quite awhile ago.  That clubhouse
is no longer there as a new one is in the early stages of being
built.  The town is also the name of another course by this
architect although many miles away (would have to be west
since this isn't far from the ocean).  Since this photo was
taken, the banks of the stream were lined with small white
stones....not at all natural in appearance.

and comments from Jamie Slonis:

I should know this one since I logged two years as a PGA
apprentice there(before escaping back to an Amateur)...

This course is very narrow, and could definitely use some  tree removal.

On a positive note, after some very poor greens conditions in
the early 1990's...the club hired a wonderful young Supt.(he
was an Asst Supt. at Winged Foot, prior) in the fall of 1994.  
With his guidance, the club has become one of the best
conditioned courses in the area.


and aerial:



The fairways are too narrow and there are too many trees,
but it's a very good course...until the rerouting section late in
the back nine, where the scrunched holes aren't quite as
good.  Fairly rolling property for otherwise dead-flat south
Jersey (except PV, of course).  As I said above, an excellent
set of par 3's, though not as good as Rolling Green's world-
class set.

Thanks, Fred!

[fred ruttenberg]

Woodcrest is in Cherry Hill,NJ (about 10 minutes from Pine Valley). Many holes have significant elevation changes-elevated tees and greens. In the 1950s a large number of evergreens were planted which have considerably narrowed the holes. The club is gradually removing trees. Yhis usally involves one or two holes during the winter. Members return and bitch,but generally forget by the middle of the summer. Many holes are becoming more playable.

The course always had a great layout but suffered from conditioning. This started to change in the middle 1980s when Matt Shafer, an assistant at Augusta, became greenskeeper. He significantly improved conditioning before moving on (he currently is head greenskeper at Merion). Our current greenskeeper, Patrick Lucas,continues to do phenominal work. He enjoys construction projects and has rebuilt greens (including the 6th green Tom Paul referred to without any imput from me) major stream work. The streams and lakes come into play on 10 holes.

SThe course is 6500 yards from the tips with a par of 71. Its course rating is 72.9 with a 140 slope. The difficulty comes from narrow fairways (30 yards or less) dense rough and trees. During the last GAP tournament (US Open Qualifying) the low score was 71 and only 15 players out of 65 broke 80.
We will see how Matt Ward does when we play this spring.

Six holes favor a draw because of doglegs. The 2nd (Tom Paul's reference-the nines were switched last year)hole is currently straight but will be restored to Flynn's design which had the fairway at the top of the hill (about 240 yds from the tee) 20 yards to the left with a large trap to hit over. The 13th and 18th also play left to right.

The 17th and 18th holes are the weakest on the course and were not part of Flynn's original design. Hopefully these will be changed soon.

The Gordons, who worked with Flynn on the original course, did some work in the 1950s. Rees Jones redesigned the 12th green, but his work has since been redone. Other changes were primarily in-house.

Mike -we have to play this spring. I will be in touch.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I loved Woodcrest.

I also lamented that the holes across the road were not part of the golf course.

There is a schematic in the clubhouse that shows those holes.

I found it to be a very interesting golf course.
I loved the selection of the green sites, and just about everything about the golf course.  It was fun and challenging to play.

# 1 is a little on the soft side as an opener, but that changes rather quickly.

I also felt that excessive, seperation plantings had been undertaken, and, I'd like to see a tree removal program put in place.

For some reason, Woodcrest doesn't get the attention or credit it deserves architecturally.

[Dan Herrmann]

Woodcrest was good enough to hold a Pro/President/Green Chair/Golf Chair outing yesterday.  Many thanks to the members for their hospitality!

First of all - I think the conditioning was first rate.  I think the greens were in awesome shape - they were fast and true and held a well-hit shot.  Great job.

But this is a jewel hidden underneath unnecessary trees.  I think that this course could be near the top of Jersey ratings if they'd only remove trees and countour fairways.  I saw several places where bunkers appear to have been removed and trees planted.  

If only they'd look at Oakmont, Philadelphia CC and Rolling Green to see what good can come of a tree removal program...  The entire course could be as good as those great par 3's - some of the most beautiful and challenging I've ever seen!

[TEPaul]

Dan:

I think you're very right about Woodcrest and excessive trees or hole tree-lining. The course is about to undergo perhaps some form of a restoration or reworking of the final two holes (not original) and they should look very seriously during that project at removing trees. What they probably need is a comprehensive tree committee or tree removal plan to do this. One of the problems with a course like Woodcrest is like Rolling Green and Manny's to some extent some of the routing (the juxtaposition of the holes) is a little tight so the club has to be careful where they remove trees and where they don't. To start with they should just get out an aerial and start to take some measurements of areas between holes to tell best where the logical places to start removing trees are and where it might get a bit dangerous between holes.

The other thing with courses that're as treed as Woodcrest, Rolling Green and Manny's is removing selective trees was something that should've started about 20 years ago. Now the unwanted trees such as evergreens are so "grown-into" some really beautiful trees that otherwise would look gorgeous as stand-alones they've started to stunt and wreck those formerly gorgeous and big stand-alone deciduous trees.

But, you're right, Woodcrest is very much in need of a really good tree removal program.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I'm having problems opening another prior Woodcrest thread that I started a few months ago around the time that I played there in a GAP Member Day event. As I reported, the club has been taken over by its lender who is operating the club. I understand there is a membership group that is making or will make an offer to buy the club from the lender but there seems to be some problems with regulatory agencies and the loan that was made a few years ago when the clubhouse was renovated or rebuilt. In any event, here is a recent article:

http://blogs.courierpostonline.com/golf/2010/08/04/woodcrest-is-a-quite-a-treat/

[Dan Herrmann]

Another "we need a McMansion clubhouse SNAFU"?  Sometimes I wonder just how many clubs were killed (figuratively) by over-extending by buying a clubhouse they didn't really need.

And I'm still convinced that Woodcrest has one of the best set of par 3's anywhere.  Not the best, but definitely upper-tier.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan,

The Country Club of Fairfield, a really great golf course, has a simple but functional clubhouse.
As does Kittansett, GCGC and others.

Even Atlantic has a very modest, yet functional clubhouse, adequately sufficient for the golfing membership's needs

It's the NON-Golfing element, those that feel it's necessary to "display" to the outside world, how grand they are, that get involved in building the next Taj Mahal.

While some may not like the "spartan like" clubhouses of CCF and GCGC, they're functional and serve the GOLFING memberships purpose.

It's when a clubhouse is transitioned from a GOLF to a SOCIAL clubhouse that clubs get themselves in financiall trouble.

[Dan Herrmann]

Patrick - Gulph Mills is another great positive example.

Laura and I were married at a wonderful, cozy old Chester County farmhouse that served as my club's clubhouse.  They tore it down a few years later and put in something not even close as its replacement.       I used to be a member of a fine golf club in Portland, OR that tore down its clubhouse, built something that was "blah", and actually destroyed the integrity of its 18th hole.

It's seen all too often.   Cripes - could you imagine Merion with a McMansion clubhouse?  Pine Valley?   etc....

Patrick- you are SO correct - it's the "display" that kills these clubs, and to be honest, nobody outside the club really cares, do they?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Dan, Pat

I wouldn't call Woodcrest's new clubhouse a monument to excess. It looks like they wanted to expand their dining and catering business. It is 36,00sf.I never experienced the old clubhouse.

http://www.woodcrestcc.com/#

http://woodcrestcc.memberstatements.com/tour/tours.cfm?tourid=8302

Here's another article:

http://www.jewishvoicesnj.org/news/2010-05-19/Home/Woodcrest_CC_in_banks_hands_Jewish_commitment_to_r.html

[archie_struthers]

 

At the age of 11 my caddying career began at Woodcrest, to this day it remains a great memory.  Suffice it to say in the late 60's and early 70's Woodcrest had some of the greatest  "characters" as members this side of the Atlantic City CC , which is a legendary golf club that many here have knowledge.

The golf course is really excellent , fun and arguably in the best condition in Philly every year. Since the 60's there have been some lengthening of tees and new greens built on two of the holes , in the old configuration the aforementioned par four sixth and the par three sixteenth .  The nines have now been flipped to make the finish a long dogleg par 5 that was always the 9th hole. I liked the old routing better , in that the starting holes (now 10-11 got you off quickly and are fairly benign.... Old .#1 is quite narrow and could probably use some tree cleariing for us crooked hitters. OLD  Two is a short five par, a birdie hole with just enough trouble to keep your attention, followed by one of the better fours in the area . As stated these are now 10, 11 and 12.

Technology has made Woodcrest fairly short , and accuracy is the key to scoring , three of the four par fives are easily  reachable by the expert , yet all require some strategy , they are fun and certainly not gimmes.  The fours are varied and interesting , with the small greens and rough being the biggest defense .  Bunkering is subdued and quite nice nothing too flashy or retro .  They built some great bunkers on what is now the 4th hole , a neat par five iwth the biggest elevation change on the course.  The second shot challenges you to go for the green after a good drive , and the new bunkers  , over a creek and built into a large hill leading to the uphill green, mandate accuracy if you lay up or take a riip at it.  Quite a fun risk reward.


 I liked the old greens that wre blown up , they were small and simplistic , basically flat and perhaps a little boring, but they fit . Fluynnn mixed in some simplistic greens with some that had some nice mivement ....eg new #1 , 16 and 18.   .   In the case of old 16 there wasn't much cupping area and it may have been maintenance driven.  Fred  R  most likely knows ,  although it was back in the early 1970's and he may have been a fledgling member at the time.  I'm not sure that any architect supervised the green redo.....the superintendent in that era was either jack Montecalvo or Joe Schoen. Pretty sure it was Jack.

There are two bunkers that have been inserted in the 9th fairway (new) that don't sit well with me ( sorry Fred)  They just constricted what was already a good driving hole whre left center was the spot to be. Now you are forced to hit it right , taking away the easier angle to the green. 18 also happens to one of the firmest greens on the golf course , so it really makes the second shot fairly difficult when the pin is right side behind the bunker . Mission accomplished if more difficulty was the idea but it wasn't necessary .  We have two greens at Greate Bay that are obviously different than the others...our 11 and 12 holes.  Ron Garl did them in the 80's and they don't match the rest of the golf course at all ....Woodcrest did the same thing in my opinion . The old six (now 15) green is really interesting, but has way too much going on when compared with the Flynn original set.

Don't miss my overall feeling ...I love Woodcrest ...it's a great members course and loads of fun!!!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

I've played there a few times over the past 20 years and liked the course the moment I layed eyes on it.

I especially liked # 4 and # 5, the difficult par 4 and par 3, along with many other holes.

It certainly had a diverse collection of holes over interesting topography.

Steve,

I've been in the clubhouse many times.

I wouldn't call it "spartan" or "minimalist" by any stretch of the imagination.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat,

No it's not spartan or minimalist but it's not a golf club.It's not like some of the ones elsewhere, as in Florida, that are familiar to you. They wanted the wedding and bar/t mitzvah business. That's what they have. Unfortunately, it was built just before the economy went south.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

No it's not spartan or minimalist but it's not a golf club.It's not like some of the ones elsewhere, as in Florida, that are familiar to you. They wanted the wedding and bar/t mitzvah business. That's what they have. Unfortunately, it was built just before the economy went south.

Steve,

I fought against expanding clubhouses for parties, weddings and Bar/t Mitzvahs for over 20 years that I served on Boards.

No one ever demonstrated a financial justification and ROI on the cost of expansion.

I suspect that Woodcrest and many other clubs got caught up in the quest to keep up with the Jones's and/or the illusion of bottom line enhancement associated with expansion.

Their clubhouse, was costly to construct and costly to maintain.
Like almost everyone, they thought that things would only get better, that we'd never see difficult times.

My father and his contemporaries ALWAYS worried about money.
They went through the depression and they experienced poverty.
They knew the price of spending without fear of adversity.

But, the "me" generation never felt the sting of prolonged adversity, and so, they built and built and expanded and built.

So, how did that work out for them ?

Maybe those old "WASP" clubs understood not spending beyond your means.

I chide my alma mater and others for the same reckless pattern of expansion for the sake of expansion.
Capital improvements are always followed by escalating operating costs.
Who can perpetually afford to fuel that unending process ?

Sooner or later people/golfers will come to the conclusion that what they have is good enough for them.
They joined a club because they liked it just the way it was.
But, as soon as they become a member, they want to alter or expand it.

Refurbish and redecorate..................., YES.
Expand and increase operating costs .... NO

End of rant

[archie_struthers]

 

PM ... quite a controlled and intelligent rant as per clubhouse expansion....not  even a rant IMHO  ....you want a rant , watch some of these imbeciles in Congress and the Senate go off ...

Didn't even notice that this Woodcrest thread was from 2004 and got resurrected but no one really went into the architectural changes to OLD  #6 .... #16    and #18  old  par four  ,,,they are relevant discussions as all clearly changed the original intent of Flynn vis a vis these holes    ....  lots to talk about ...as the changes were not tweaking but significant

[fred ruttenberg]

16 was rebuilt using the plans from one of Flynn's original  drawings.  The superentendant from Merion (I cannot remember his name) supervised the matter.
18 had another row of trees on the left side which were cut down before the bunkers were added (Ron Forse did the design and the work).  The result is there is more room off the tee than before.

There were a lot of problems with management in addition to the Clubhouse (which was too expensive).  We do have a group of members who are trying to purchase the course but the Bank has shown no willingness to even talk.  We will just have to see what happens.

[Rick Sides]

Fred,
Is the course going public?  Sorry to hear the bank will not talk.  I love Woodcrest.

[archie_struthers]

 

Fred it's interesting that Flynn did some drawings of other greens for Woodcrest . Are there any wriitings as to why he chose the original , smaller one for 16.  Maybe Tom can chime in and say whether this was a normal thing for Flynn,  and whether ther were any other greens proposed at Woodcrest.   

An interesting aside to the great golf at Woodcrest is that they had the best , absolutely best food ever at the half way house .  A great lady named Phyllis made the best food ever. Whether it was a hot dog , burger or tuna sub it was fabulous......Phyllis was Angelo Errichetti's (Camden mayor) sister and the family was in the diner business.  Her son, Bobby ran Chez Robert in Haddonfield a fine French restaurant , and now is famous for his take out crab cakes at the shore and other Del Val locations.....his mother , though, was the best cook (she died recently) and a great lady.   She toookngood care of the members and the caddies too...and always hired really good looking girls !!!!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Litigation update:

What's a golf course worth these days? It's getting nasty.


http://www.philly.com/inquirer/business/20101027_PhillyDeals__Loan_fight_threatens_Woodcrest_Country_Club.html

[TEPaul]

"Maybe Tom can chime in and say whether this was a normal thing for Flynn,  and whether ther were any other greens proposed at Woodcrest."



ARCHIE:

I would be completely delighted to chime in but what is it you're talking about?

And, by the way, what is your definition of normal (it may be quite different from my definition of normal) and who is Flynn?   

[archie_struthers]

 

I believe Fred Ruttenberg alluded to the fact that Flynn ( your associate in spirit) had other drawings laying around that were used in building the new green at oald 16 .  The green doesn't look at all like anything  I have seen that Flynn built

[Dan Herrmann]

Hey - Is it true that there are some abandoned holes across one of the streets from the current golf course?  I seem to have remembered somebody mentioning it when I played there, but I don't know if it's true.