[Bob_Huntley]

The earlier thread on Match Play Courses, got me to thinking, itself a dangerous proposition.

What does the Handicap Czar at a club do when the matches finish early and no handicap is posted? Beat his breast and tear his hair no doubt. With all this GHIN nonsense and computerized posting, the game is going to the dogs.

Like Rich, I say have a Monthly Medal and be done with it.

And bring back flogging, deportation and hanging too.  

[JohnV]

Under the US system, any match that goes 13 or more holes should be posted.  Simply take par + any handicap strokes for the holes not played.  For holes where you picked up early due to a concession, determine the score you would most likely have made and use it.  For example if you had a 6 inch putt for 4, put down 4 unless you are in need of a long putter but too vain to use one.  If you had a 20 footer for 4, put down a 5.  You make your best guess.

For any match that ended in less than 13 holes you should post a 9 hole score for the front 9.  When you eventually post another 9 hole score they will be combined to make an 18 hole score for your handicap.

Bob, just remember that the monthly medal could end up doing the same thing to your handicap that those T scores did last year.

[Brian_Gracely]

JohnV,

What is the rationalle for using 13 holes?  If you lose a match 6 & 5, in most cases you probably didn't play all that well.  So is it reasonable to take par for the final five holes?  I suppose that it would most likely be a higher score than "just post your lowest score", but it seems like it could create some skewed scores.

Bob,

Where would the flogging be done?  Clubhouse, carpark or on the course?  We're planning some renovations at my club and I want to make sure we allocate some space.

[TEPaul]

Brian:

I don't think you understood what JohnV said. If you played 13 holes you post scores on the remaining holes of par plus your strokes on the remaining holes. Losing a match 6 and 5 has nothing to do with it. You're playing golf aren't you? So what if you got beat 6 and 5. You can also post with only 13 holes played if you're playing alone.

Bob Huntley:

I admire your concern but you weren't born in America were you? Forget about this "monthy medal" thing! It's never going to happen in America--and I mean NEVER! It matters not how much or how cogently you or Rich propose it!

C.B Macdonald couldn't bring the European way to the old US of A and he came to know in no uncertain terms why he couldn't! Frankly it depressed him terrible and that was long before American golf really hit its stride! These cats over here were going to do things there own way from the git-go and they always will! And there's not a damn thing you can do about it---I'm sorry to say--and I truly mean that.

[Brian_Gracely]

Brian:

I don't think you understood what JohnV said. If you played 13 holes you post scores on the remaining holes of par plus your strokes on the remaining holes.

TEPaul,

You're correct, I'm missing something in the translation here.  What does "par plus your strokes" mean?  If my match ended after 13 holes, and we decided to walk to the clubhouse at that point, can a score be posted?  

I've never seen an option in the handicap computer to post anything but 18 hole scores, so I also don't understand how the 9 or 13 hole score is posted.  Combining two sets of 9 hole scores doesn't seem proper to me, especially on potentially different days.  

[TEPaul]

One thing I should mention that was proposed in GeoffShac's new book is if and when the USGA allows or completly promotes HOLE BY HOLE handicap posting instead of the  gross score (single round) posting they've always had---with our computer capabilities today's handicap problems could be solved forever and in one fell swoop! Think about it---that's the match play format! Of course peer review and handicap chairmen can't continue to COMPLETELY sit on their hands but hole by hole posting would make things about 1,000% easier for them! Maybe 10,000% easier for them!

Think about it!

[A_Clay_Man]

Brian- Based on your hndcp, you either post par or bogie, for the unplayed holes. If the handcp # for the hole is higher than your hndcp, you take par. If the hndc for the hole is lower than your hndcp, you post bogie. If you are a 19 hndcpr and the 18th hole is the #1 hncp hole, you post a double. Equitable stroke differential (I think) Got it?

[TEPaul]

One of the completely wonderful things about handicap posting if the USGA would encourage and promote hole by hole posting is ESC understanding and voluntary compliance would be a thing of the past at least as far as the player was concerned. Even I can't remember sometimes what the latest ESC formula is! If they encouraged and promoted hole by hole posting ESC could be in the computer application and anyone could post a gross hole score even if it was a 10 or and X and the ESC formula within the USGA's GHIN computer application could break it down automatically!

[JohnV]

[TEPaul,

You're correct, I'm missing something in the translation here.  What does "par plus your strokes" mean?  If my match ended after 13 holes, and we decided to walk to the clubhouse at that point, can a score be posted?  

Anytime you play 13 or more holes you are supposed to post your score.  What you do is take par + any handicap strokes you would have received on the holes you didn't play.

Lets say you play 16 holes.   #17 is a par 5 and #18 is a par 4 and you get a stroke on #17.  You would take your score for 16 holes and add a 6 for #17 and a 4 for #18 and post that score.

The reason for 13 holes is that you have played over 2/3rds of the round so the powers that be felt that it should be enough to post.

[Bob_Huntley]

TEP,

Yes, you are right, I was not born in these here Yewnighted States and I'm getting my balls in a knot over things I cannot change. I now can understand why CB was such an obnoxious twit, he could not get youse Americans to abide by a better idea from a furrener or expatriate.

GHIN is a daft idea drafted from faulty logic.

[Mike_Trenham]

Some clubs with aggressive handicap managers (the golfers not the chairmen) insist on this scoring system for all match play scores.  Use actual or best estimate for the score on each hole until the match is complete at which time the golfers must post par + any handicap strokes.  This prevents the sandbagger from winning 6 up and "making" double boggey on the remaining holes.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pop open this link, scroll down a bit and then click on "2002-2005 USGA Handicap System Online Manual".
It should be required reading for those with questions about the system.

http://www.usga.org/handicap/index.html

My favorite section is: 11-2 , PEER REVIEW.

 

[ForkaB]

Bob

You are, of course, right.  Compared to the USGA handicapping system the IRS Code is a paradigm for fairness and simplicity.

I suspect that it will be on his deathbed (which is an event far into the future, we hope) that Tom Paul will suddenly undergo a Damascene conversion and whisper "CONGU" into the ear of his closest aides, with the same sadness and import as Charles Kane's "Rosebud."

[TEPaul]

"that Tom Paul will suddenly undergo a Damascene conversion and whisper "CONGU" into the ear of his closest aides, with the same sadness and import as Charles Kane's "Rosebud."

Rich:

Bravo! I haven't laughed outloud alone that hard in a long long time!! I truly hope I can somehow figure out how to whisper that as my last words like Orson did "Rosebud". But do my poor family a favor will you and give it a couple of years and then tell them what the hell it means or they really will remember me being as weird as they sometimes think I am?!  

PS;

I will admit that for one's last word in life "CONGU" is much cooler and more effective than "GHIN"!

[Darren_Kilfara]

While I heartily agree with Bob's and Rich's lines of reasoning, I think the real shame about the lack of monthly medals in the US is most golfers will go their entire lives without ever being exposed to golf "by the rules". The GHIN system is a joke not because non-competitive matches and rounds are being used, but because the number of differing day-to-day interpretations of Rules of Golf approaches infinity with each new participant in the system. And sure, in Britain there will be uncaught cheaters, as well as people who ignore certain rules (e.g. giving advice to a fellow competitor during a round), but the vast majority tries to play by the rules in the monthly or weekly medal, and that attitude inevitably crosses over to their less formal golfing occasoins. I'm not suggesting that the average American golfer innately possesses less integrity than his British counterpart, but the British system certainly does more to bring integrity to the fore than its American equivalent.

Cheers,
Darren

[James Edwards]

Darren,

How does it work again?  Is it 20 scores on a card? then...

I couldn't believe my eyes when I was at the St Andrews Links Championship in 2000 and was eating lunch with an American participant and a SA and they showed me their plus 4 and plus 5 handicap cards respectively, with casual rounds counting towards their handicaps.  On there cards were round after round with 67, 66, 69, 67, 67, 65, 66.  I must admit I found that hard to swallow especially as both didn't score under 85.

[TEPaul]

Rich, Bob and Darren,

Lest you think I'll never learn anything or be willing to change my mind about anything particularly the pros and cons of the GHIN system compared to CONGU, I've never said I think the GHIN system encourages compliance to the Rules of Golf as well as CONGU (due to its medal round handicap requirment) or that GHIN (actually the "USGA HANDICAP SYSTEM" which is technically distinct and apart from the GHIN system) derives more representative handcaps!

I've never said or implied anything like that and I think Rich, at least, from years of talking about this together completely understands that!

I'm not saying the GHIN system is better in those ways, I'm only saying that the American golfing public will never accept the CONGU system or a handicap system with its requirements. If the USGA tried to foist CONGU or a system requiring medal rounds only for handicaps on American golfers they'd abandon the USGA "Handicap System" (or a CONGU imitation) and find others that wouldn't require medal rounds for handicap production just as they have now. At that point the USGA would virtually be out of that area of golf just as the R&A is (the R&A never entered that area of golf!!).

Bob:

The next post is an example of what Macdonald was up against in his early efforts to transport the European way to American golf and what you and Rich and Darren would be up against about 1000 fold with your suggestions.

[TEPaul]

This from incoming USGA President R.H. Robertson to C.B. Macdonald's horror in 1901;

"I know that we are all grateful for what England and Scotland have done for us in exporting this game for our delectation and amusement; but I think we should guard against being too much restricted and held down by precedent and tradition. I fear that is the fault of the game on the other side. Do not let us be afraid of innovation simply because they are innovations. Nothing can come to America and stay very long without being Americanized in character; and I hope this game will be no exception to this rule. I should like to see American golf."

So you think it reasonable to propose something that C.B Macdonald himself who essentially started the USGA and was central to it back then couldn't pull off when the game in America was about 10,000 times LESS entrenched? If you do, go for it but take my advice and don't hold your breath!

[ForkaB]

Tom

You are wise to agree to "CONGU" as your death rattle.  If you were to say "GHIN", they might just think that you were bringing up phlegm and not listen to you.  If you were to say "USGA" they might think you were from Minnesota and throw a few wooly blankets over you.  With "CONGU" at least they'll sit up and way, "What the F***?"

As for the merits of the various system, listen to James (JJSE).  It's hysterical how many "plus" players under USGA hanidcapping rules can play to "plus" only if they mark their own cards and pretend that they make all putts within 5 feet.  While it used to be different and there are exceptions, it is shameful how poorly most US amateurs players play when they come over here for significant competitions.

Maybe if they were brought up believing that a handicap was an honor, strictly dependent on ability, rather than some sort of passport to elite events that one can manipulate without fear of sanction, our amateur game would be a better one than it is--good as it already is, to be sure.

[THuckaby2]

Rich et al:

Yes, under our system ego handicaps are achieved, like those that James saw and you seem to see on a regular basis.

Yes, it is easy to do.

Yes, handicaps here can be used for entry into elite events for those otherwise unqualified.

All are weaknesses.

But the CONGU system has weaknesses as well, the main one being one's handicap changes so infrequently.

The bottom line remains as TEP has tried vainly to point out, on this thread and SO MANY threads prior to this:  CONGU works over there, GHIN works over here, due to the basic culural differences in the two societies.

Rake me over the coals and make me give my last confession, and I'll admit CONGU is likely the superior system, given it is based far more correctly on true ability rather than manipulated ability.  

But it's a moot point, because it will NEVER work over here, because things like the "monthly medal" just plain DON'T HAPPEN, not as a matter of routine anyway.

So why are we arguing this AGAIN?

What we have here works pretty damn well.  Yes, the math gets somewhat convoluted, but that's why we have computers.  Yes, it can be manipulated by the unscrupulous, but then again, so can CONGU... but yes it is far easier to do so here.  Yes, perhaps it doesn't promote playing by strict rules as well as CONGU, but that too is a cultural difference that no handicap system will change here...

But in the end, even with all these weaknesses, GHIN works, for the vast majority of US players who bother to get a handicap (which is a small minority of regular golfers here anyway).

TH

[Darren_Kilfara]

Darren,

How does it work again?  Is it 20 scores on a card? then...

I couldn't believe my eyes when I was at the St Andrews Links Championship in 2000 and was eating lunch with an American participant and a SA and they showed me their plus 4 and plus 5 handicap cards respectively, with casual rounds counting towards their handicaps.  On there cards were round after round with 67, 66, 69, 67, 67, 65, 66.  I must admit I found that hard to swallow especially as both didn't score under 85.

James, someone based in America will have to correct me if I'm wrong, but last time I checked GHIN = take your best 10 scores from your last 20 rounds, adjusted for slope and course rating, and average the results. I've always thought that the British system measured your ability and the American system your potential, if that makes sense.

Tom H., I would disagree with your assessment of CONGU's main "weakness". It's quite difficult for your handicap to rise (it takes 10 bad rounds in a row for your handicap to rise by one stroke), but it's relatively easy for it to fall, and as far as I'm concerned, that's the way it should be - you'd rather protect against sandbagging than the other extreme, wouldn't you? And I find it far too easy for your handicap to fluctuate dramatically in the GHIN system. A classic example: my father, who at his best played to a 1, always suffered from bad knees and in the period from late 1983 to early 1984 saw him post a number of bad rounds and had his handicap (legitimately) rise to 15, which is where it was when he played in the Atlanta Classic pro-am that year. He and his team were paired with Greg Norman, two days after Norman had lost to Fuzzy Zoeller in the Winged Foot U.S. Open playoff; my father, in a rare bout of good health, managed to shoot an even-par 72 - gross - on his own ball, which was three shots better than Norman himself could manage (albeit from forward tees). My favorite moment in that round, which I followed as a wide-eyed 10-year-old, was when my father turned to Norman on the 7th hole (his 16th) and asked, "So, do you get a stroke here?"

Anyway, every time I tell that story, I find it difficult to explain how my father wasn't sandbagging; statistically, it should be IMPOSSIBLE for a 15-handicapper to shoot even par, right? In the British system, that would be impossible, but in the American system, the sliding window of 20 scores makes wild leaps in both directions possible, often to the detriment of proper competition. (My father's team finished on 20-under-par for 18 holes, in joint first-place; if I'd have been in one of the other teams and had seen my father's hole-by-hole scores, I'd have been absolutely livid.)

Cheers,
Darren

[Bill_McBride]

James, with regard to the plus 4s and 5s with a string of under 70 rounds who then shoot 85 at a strange course:  fresh meat!  

Typically here it's the other way around.  The 15 handicapper who mysteriously shoots 75 in the big dollar Calcutta!

It's very refreshing to be a member of a club where the posted handicaps are at least reasonably accurate.  Otherwise you have to avoid certain types or be sure the matches are of the $2 Nassau variety!

[THuckaby2]

Darren:

Examples can be given which "prove" any side in this.  

Let's say I make the big move and join Aberdour.  Rich Goodale knows enough of my game to say I'd be a 6 or 7 or whatever.  So I play in my first monthly medal - at gross, far be it from me to ask for any strokes when I don't have an official handicap - and alas and alack, I shoot a Halmi.  My established handicap at Aberdour, based on this medal score, becomes 15.

You think Rich is gonna be happy about playing against me with my 15 for the next month, until the next medal?  Let's just say I'd be happy to have that number in our bounce games... and if he denies me the use of it, isn't he denying the worth of the CONGU system?

Then the next month comes and alas and alack, I choke again and fire a semi-Halmi (say 80).  That only gets me down to 12, and I spend another month robbing Goodale of his earnings.

In the meantime I have played 20 rounds robbing the good man, generally all in the 70s.... but these don't count.

That is the weakness I speak of.  The score sample is better QUALITY without a doubt, but there isn't sufficient QUANTITY to allow for effective change.

And yes, I know - Goodale's answer is to petition the handicap chair to have me lowered.  But why should I be?  I scored honest 82 and 85 in the medals....

As I say, CONGU is a better system in general.  But it is not without flaws itself, and again, the main point is it just plain would never be accepted here, so suggestions that we should adopt it are silly.

TH

[ForkaB]

T^om

Darren nails it.  It is an indomitable STRENGTH of the non-USGA handicapping systems that they do NOT "change so infrequently."

Let me ask you.  I'd guess that you've been a 4-5 handicap for virtually all of your mature golfing life.  Maybe down to 3 or up to 7 form time to time, but never really varying much.  Most importanly, I can't really se your game as varying much over the past 25 years.  Slice it down the middle, bunt it onto the green, 1-3 putts, 73-81 strokes, thank you very much for the game, where's the GHIN computer?......

But, whiat if, like Darren's Dad, you were collateral damAge in a tragic kiln explosion?  Maybe you had to play for a month or two with a Papazian shunt in your left forearm that caused you to hit low hookers rather than high sliders.  Maybe you started posting 83,84,85,84,85,85,83,86,84, etc. etc. like somebody we all now "know."  Your handicap index goes up to 9.6 before you can say "Bob (Huntley) 's my Uncle (in my dreams....), but you recover, they take the shunt out and you are the same old loveable Huckster yet again.  In this case, when you are standing on the 16th at CPC with Shivas and Moriarty and Duran, do you say to them--"Gee, guys, I get a stroke here today, I'm a '12'!", or do you just fade it to the back of the green, as usual, and then go help look for the other players balls?

There is no defence for the USGA handicap system other than naivete or ignorance.

[THuckaby2]

James, someone based in America will have to correct me if I'm wrong, but last time I checked GHIN = take your best 10 scores from your last 20 rounds, adjusted for slope and course rating, and average the results. I've always thought that the British system measured your ability and the American system your potential, if that makes sense.

That's it in a nutshell.  There is a bit of additional math in the adjustment that seems to be too tough for Goodale but easy enough for my 8-year old daughter, but you captured the essence of it.  

TH

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