[Keith Durrant]

Since, the Matchplay championship kicks off today...

Can a course be a better Matchplay than Strokeplay course?

If so, what are the best Matchplay courses in the world? Have sponsors got it wrong in choosing La Costa and Wentworth for the 2 events?

[Jeff Fortson]

They should pick NGLA and TOC!

Jeff F.

[Bill_McBride]

Any course can be a great match play course, but to say one specific course is a better match play than stroke play course, that's hard to define.

I would say you would be looking at a course where wide fairways and many options, and perhaps a bit shorter and quirky so that bold efforts are rewarded.  Strategy is certainly an essential element of match play, where the head to head competitors may be of different ability levels in tee shot length, short game finesse, etc.

Using the above analysis, I would say that Cypress Point would be the ideal match play vs stroke play course.  On the other hand, La Costa seems to be a course more suited to stroke play.  Long par 4's, more of a grind.

Haven't played Sunningdale but it seems to be more of a mixture from the Shell matches I've seen on TV.

[David_Tepper]

I think Augusta National would make a great matchplay course. The risk/reward nature of the back nine, where you could make birdie on 13 & 15 and still possibly lose a hole, makes it especially appealing. Of course, the rough would have to be eliminated.    

[Keith Durrant]

With ANGC wouldnt you want more strategy options on 17 & 18 (to allow a player who is down to take more risk)?

What about TPC Sawgrass?

[RJ_Daley]

I think they just played at a great match play course at Riviera.  What can you say for that finish with Shegeki and Weir as if it were match play all day.  The front has a great combination of holes where one can cut a lead if they are bold or punish you for being too bold (i.e. what happened at 10) , and the final 15-16-17-18 are diverse and tough enough to make you earn it from testing all aspects of one's game.  

[David_Tepper]

rottcodd-

You read my mind! I almost mentioned in my post that the weakness of AGNC as a matchplay course was holes 17 & 18.
Hard to imagine any big swings happening on those holes, although on #18 Palmer made a 6 to lose the Masters and Lyle made 3 from the fairway bunker to win the Masters.

DT

[Andy Hughes]

I haven't played it (yet!), but Tobacco Road sounds like it would be a thrilling match play course.

[Bob_Huntley]

I think the best matchplay event I saw was the 1981 Walker Cup at Cypress Point.

The most scintillating golf that day was produced by Jodie Mudd, he beat Colin Dalgleish 7 and 5 being seven under after thirteen holes.

Hal Sutton hit 4 iron onto the 16th!

[James Edwards]

Bill,

Excellent choice.

Sunningdale has a long history of hosting Amateur events from there own club matchplays to top amateur events such as Internationals to the Sunningdale Foursomes and professional matchplay events e.g. shell WWoG / and recently the Seve Trophy.

Great risk reward shots all over the course!

[tonyt]

I'd still choose ANGC as a great matchplay site, despite the misgivings mentioned above about #17-18. The 16th, followed by the 15th, are the two most frequent finishing holes in a matchplay event. And besides, Augusta hasn't failed to provide some great finishes on their closing holes quite regularly.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rottcodd and David Tepper,

How are # 17 and # 18 void of strategy or options ?

Have you ever played either hole ?

[Keith Durrant]

Patrick,

Both are solid 2-shotters as far as one can tell on TV.

In terms of matchplay swings, a short drivable par 4 or reachable par 5 would allow distinctly aggressive or conservative plays which a straight 2 shot par 4 does not.

[CJ72]

How about Pacific Dunes?  When the wind is blowing it is one of the best match play courses I have ever scene.  There are plenty of opportunities for birdies and X's.  Holes 6 and 16 are wonderful risk reward holes.  Just a solid match play course.

[Andy Hodson]

The Ocean Course at Kiawah ... because only as a  match play
course can it bear all its fangs. And, boy, does it have some teeth. Plus, the ever present feeling there of walking the tightrope fits perfectly with match play strategy, and the feeling that no lead is ever safe. Just ask Calc.

Great course. I just don't like adding them all up at the end.

[David_Tepper]

Patrick Mucci-

I have never set foot on ANGC. The sole basis for my opinons is watching the Masters on TV for 35+ years and talking to a few friends who have been there.

As for a strategy goes, I recall that in the old days, the choices on 18 were either lay-up in front of the fairway bunkers with a 3-wood/1-iron (conservative) or play fade around the trees and try to get up the fairway with a driver (aggressive). That choice was rendered obsolete the year Ian Woosnam took the fairway bunkers out of play by just driving over them. Tiger did the same when he won his 1st Masters.

Since the tee on 18 has been moved back, it appears that there is no choice on the tee shot.  Everyone has to hit driver to get the ball far enough thru the chute and into play to clear the trees down the right side of the fairway.

To be honest, I have never been able to get a good feel for #17 watching it on TV. I certainly don't recall seeing many players hit their 2nd shots stiff.  The green does not appear to have the contours of many of the other greens on the back nine (such as 13, 14, 16, 18).

It would be interesting to see the stats on how many times #17 & #18 are birdied during the Masters.  My guess is those holes are in the top 1/3 of the course in giving up the fewest birdies.  They also probably see very few double bogies as well.

They have always struck me a being fairly ho-hum golf holes, especially compared holes 10 thru 16.  

DT

[Brian_Gracely]

Prestwick would be a pretty interesting 36-hole match-play course, especially if they arranged it so it played 1-18, then 15-18, then 1-14.  Those last four holes, played back to back would create a potential for a huge swing in the middle of the match.  And it wouldn't change the walk in anyway, since all of those would start and end at the clubhouse.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

rottcodd,

Patrick,

Both are solid 2-shotters as far as one can tell on TV.

In terms of matchplay swings, a short drivable par 4 or reachable par 5 would allow distinctly aggressive or conservative plays which a straight 2 shot par 4 does not.

# 18 is anything but straight.
There are agressive lines, and conservative lines off the tee, with club selection remaining an option.
The second shot has options as well, especially when the pin is in certain locations.

# 17 requires some decisions as well, and Ike's tree is no small factor.

I wouldn't dismiss either hole based upon watching TV,
which has a tendency to flatten and misrepresent golf holes, especially when only one or two camera angles are employed.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Tepper,

I have never set foot on ANGC. The sole basis for my opinons is watching the Masters on TV for 35+ years and talking to a few friends who have been there.

I think that one of the problems is that all to often we couch our opinions in the context of the game of golf as played by the greatest players in the world, The PGA Tour Professional.

When you lock yourself into an analysis of any hole or golf course, solely in that context, you're not fully exploring or even recognizing the mulit-faceted nature of any golf hole.

I think you have to qualify your opinion.
Does it pertain to a special class of golfers, or does it apply to all golfers ?

As for a strategy goes, I recall that in the old days, the choices on 18 were either lay-up in front of the fairway bunkers with a 3-wood/1-iron (conservative) or play fade around the trees and try to get up the fairway with a driver (aggressive). That choice was rendered obsolete the year Ian Woosnam took the fairway bunkers out of play by just driving over them. Tiger did the same when he won his 1st Masters.

You must be younger then I am.
In the real old days, there was no bunker at the corner on
# 18.  Those bunkers were added in 1966, when the center fairway bunker located at about 110 yards from the green was removed.

The corner fairway bunkers were only hazards for a little while.  Eventually long hitters blew it over them, leaving them a fairly open shot into the green.  Lengthening the tee should bring those bunkers back into play.

You may recall Greg Norman hit a drive and a 4-iron into that green the year he pushed it right and lost the Masters.
A few years later, players were hitting sand wedges into that green, a green not designed to accept sand wedges.  

Since the tee on 18 has been moved back, it appears that there is no choice on the tee shot.  Everyone has to hit driver to get the ball far enough thru the chute and into play to clear the trees down the right side of the fairway.

Now, you won't have the luxury of bailing out to the left on your tee shot, into the rough, with a relatively benign shot into the green.  Now, you're going to have to play your way home.

To be honest, I have never been able to get a good feel for #17 watching it on TV. I certainly don't recall seeing many players hit their 2nd shots stiff.  The green does not appear to have the contours of many of the other greens on the back nine (such as 13, 14, 16, 18).

# 17 was to an uphill plateau that the players were flying, added length will return Ike's tree into the mix, bring the uphill slope into play and possibly return the approach shot to its intended value

It would be interesting to see the stats on how many times #17 & #18 are birdied during the Masters.  My guess is those holes are in the top 1/3 of the course in giving up the fewest birdies.  They also probably see very few double bogies as well.

Without water or out of bounds, I don't know how many holes generate a fair share or abundance of double bogey's for PGA Tour players, so I think that the double bogey qualifier is not applicable for those holes.

# 18 is a pretty strong finishing hole, one that you can't limp home on.

After dealing with water on holes # 11, 12, 13, 15, and 16, I don't see any need to introduce that element and its consequences into the mix.

They have always struck me a being fairly ho-hum golf holes, especially compared holes 10 thru 16.  

I can assure you, that standing on the tee at # 18, few golfers have yawned and said, "well, look at this ho-hum hole"
It's quite the opposite, it's one hell of a golf hole.

[Brian Phillips]

My favourite modern matchplay course would have to Kingsbarns.  With the width and the variety of hole lengths, I don't know of many other courses that have been built recently that provide so much fun in matchplay.

North Berwick is another that springs to mind as there are so many risk reward options on the course.

And last but not least TOC.

Brian

[Kevin_Reilly]

You may recall Greg Norman hit a drive and a 4-iron into that green the year he pushed it right and lost the Masters.  A few years later, players were hitting sand wedges into that green, a green not designed to accept sand wedges.  

Norman used a 3 wood off the 18th tee that day.

[Mike Benham]

You may recall Greg Norman hit a drive and a 4-iron into that green the year he pushed it right and lost the Masters.  A few years later, players were hitting sand wedges into that green, a green not designed to accept sand wedges.  

Norman used a 3 wood off the 18th tee that day.

And a balata ball ...

[David_Tepper]

Patrick Mucci-

With regards to "couching" my opinion in regard to PGA Tour golf, I was merely going along with the premise implied by rottcodd's initial post, which was motivated by the PGA matchplay event currently under way. Since he referred to the courses holding the two premier professional matchplay events (La Costa and Wentworth), I presumed he was asking his question in that context. Believe me, I know better than anyone that they play a game with which I am not familiar!  

At 54 years old, I may well be younger than you. As I said, I have watched the Masters for 35+ years, so the features of the course before 1966 are clearly not very familiar to me.

With regard to the 18th hole in its present status, I did not mean to imply that "ho-hum" meant it was an easy or routine par-4. However, it does appear the strategic choices of the tee shot have been reduced since the tee has been moved back. My guess is that the percentage of players hitting driver off the 18th tee in the 2003 Masters was significantly higher than 10 or 20 years ago. I remember Sandy Lyle hitting one-iron into the front fairway bunker and 7-iron onto the green the year he won there. I don't think there will be many players teeing off with a one-iron on 18 this year.

DT        

[Paul_Turner]

No you fools, it's Painswick!  

Am I completely wasting my time here  

[A_Clay_Man]

This is one of the great benefits of Match Play, it can be contested on any course. The same cannot be said about stroke play. What I mean is that the penal nature of many courses makes them almost unbearable in medal.

Plus in a match, all the silly little rulings are between competitors, not on whether the super sprayed an area clearly under repair.  

How cool would it be if the usga started yelling from rooftops "Match Play Only"? That might solve alot of the perceived problems, too.

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