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Mike Wagner

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Re: The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied
« Reply #75 on: January 08, 2013, 03:31:08 PM »
Par 3 - Bandon Trails #17
Par 4 - Inglewood GC #3
Par 5 - Pacific Dunes #3

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied
« Reply #76 on: January 08, 2013, 03:32:18 PM »
When playing Shinnecock, I thought about how a number of the holes there were on land that could be anywhere.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied
« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2013, 03:34:21 PM »
When playing Shinnecock, I thought about how a number of the holes there were on land that could be anywhere.

All you have to do is dig a bazillion bunkers, and you've got it. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied
« Reply #78 on: January 08, 2013, 03:53:07 PM »
Am I the only one who doesn't find great irony in Tom D. asking about copying golf holes at the same time he takes a mild swipe at Raynor?

"the love of many people here for Seth Raynor's limited palette"

Good old thread though!

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied
« Reply #79 on: January 08, 2013, 04:00:35 PM »
Am I the only one who doesn't find great irony in Tom D. asking about copying golf holes at the same time he takes a mild swipe at Raynor?

"the love of many people here for Seth Raynor's limited palette"

Good old thread though!

But C.B. MacDonald "copied" or replicated holes and many would say more artfully. I think copy could be the wrong word for this thread as I am not for a straight-up copy of any golf hole. Now replicating the strategies into an estranged cousin of the original: ok by me!

This does not necessarily invalidate any irony you detect though.  :)

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied
« Reply #80 on: January 08, 2013, 04:07:43 PM »
I think Sand Hills #7 is a fantastic short 4, but...

I think Sand Hills #8 is a hole the is far easier to duplicate with many different types of landforms.

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied
« Reply #81 on: January 08, 2013, 04:14:20 PM »
How about Olympic Lake's #4 and/or #5.  Doglegs one direction, fairway cants the other?  While not necessarily unique, seems the Lake's versions get the most notoriety?

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied
« Reply #82 on: January 08, 2013, 04:20:40 PM »
I think Sand Hills #7 is a fantastic short 4, but...

I think Sand Hills #8 is a hole the is far easier to duplicate with many different types of landforms.

Is #8 not already a version of a "Lion's Mouth"?

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied
« Reply #83 on: January 08, 2013, 04:24:41 PM »
I think Sand Hills #7 is a fantastic short 4, but...

I think Sand Hills #8 is a hole the is far easier to duplicate with many different types of landforms.

Is #8 not already a version of a "Lion's Mouth"?

Oh, it very well could be. I guess I didn't realize that was a type of template.  Perhaps that's why I think it would be great for replicating!

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied
« Reply #84 on: January 08, 2013, 04:42:17 PM »
How about the par 5 13th at Lawsonia? The rare par 5 with a second shot that actually makes you think about what to hit, and where to go.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied
« Reply #85 on: January 08, 2013, 04:53:08 PM »
I think Sand Hills #7 is a fantastic short 4, but...

I think Sand Hills #8 is a hole the is far easier to duplicate with many different types of landforms.

Is #8 not already a version of a "Lion's Mouth"?

Oh, it very well could be. I guess I didn't realize that was a type of template.  Perhaps that's why I think it would be great for replicating!


Don't let Alex pull that stuff on you Josh. Tom D himself listed NGLA's redan as something to copy as opposed to North Berwick's.
;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied
« Reply #86 on: January 08, 2013, 05:02:06 PM »
I think copy could be the wrong word for this thread as I am not for a straight-up copy of any golf hole. Now replicating the strategies into an estranged cousin of the original: ok by me!

And yet I am not pulling anything because it's not really about copying the dimensions of a hazard down to the last milimeter, but rather about the strategy and general set up of a golf hole.  ;)

Ok, I may be actually pulling some of this out of my  :o, but generally I stand by both statements. Wouldn't the architect "copying" a golf hole try to make it better than the original anyway?

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied
« Reply #87 on: January 08, 2013, 05:10:39 PM »
Wouldn't the architect "copying" a golf hole try to make it better than the original anyway?

Maybe not make it better, but slightly different.  That's probably why some Redans work better than others and why some are right to left.  Everyone says there aren't any original concepts in design...so why deviate from those that are known to work.

As for SH #8, I'm not sure it's the original, but definitely one of the best.  And thinking back it seems it may be a C&C template of sorts.  I think I remember seeing several of their courses with that same type of hole....also would you include Chambers Bay #5 as this same type hole?

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied
« Reply #88 on: January 08, 2013, 09:31:28 PM »
Am I the only one who doesn't find great irony in Tom D. asking about copying golf holes at the same time he takes a mild swipe at Raynor?

"the love of many people here for Seth Raynor's limited palette"

Good old thread though!

agreed that it is unattractive to throw your peers under the bus, even mildly
It's all about the golf!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied
« Reply #89 on: January 08, 2013, 09:46:05 PM »
Am I the only one who doesn't find great irony in Tom D. asking about copying golf holes at the same time he takes a mild swipe at Raynor?

"the love of many people here for Seth Raynor's limited palette"

Good old thread though!

agreed that it is unattractive to throw your peers under the bus, even mildly

Dudes,

Methinks you are over-thinking this.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Michael Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied
« Reply #90 on: January 08, 2013, 09:56:57 PM »
Let me check out 16 in more detail, Garland.  I think you have a point.

But, also, let me know on this.  For a template to be a template, we don't need to mimic it completey.  Rather we need its key elements.  I saw this a lot at Yeamans Hall.  With this mind frame, for the 6th hole template...dig a bunker, deep and nasty, on the front left.  Use that sand/dirt, to build up the green plateau at that angle...and BOOM!...you've captured the greenside elements.  No?

You may have captured greenside elements, but you won't have captured the strategy of the hole. I may do things differently than others, but I drive out to the left on 6 and take the huge bunker straight on. Since the elevation difference is so immense, my approach is not far from its apex when it lands, and therefore has little speed to kill with spin or whatever. All I have to do is get the distance right. If I get the direction right, the bonus is birdie. If I don't get the distance right, double bogey, but then that's why I often sign posts ...


Double Bogey


Garland, the play is over the short right fairway bunker so that you line up with the angle of the green.  With a short iron in your hand for the second shot (which I think even you can hit straight enough to find the green ;D ) then distance is the only issue.  If you go left, then you bring the bunker into play, and stopping the ball with less than a full swing or partially down wind all come into play.  Go right, and you shouldn't make worse than bogey, and making a par or birdie is not difficult.

Signed, Par  ;)

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied
« Reply #91 on: January 08, 2013, 10:36:51 PM »
Sorry Michael,

I guess you don't understand how directionally challenged the high handicapper is.

;)


BTW, cut shot is an euphemism for horrendous slice.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 10:40:40 PM by GJ Bailey »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied
« Reply #92 on: January 08, 2013, 10:52:37 PM »
Nice thread on Sean's nominee Sea Headrig, 2nd by Gib.  Interesting comment from Tom Doak that the green might not be reproducible, for a hole that otherwise features a solitary bunker left as the sole hazard.



The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The 18 holes which most deserve to be copied
« Reply #93 on: January 09, 2013, 12:30:07 AM »
Am I the only one who doesn't find great irony in Tom D. asking about copying golf holes at the same time he takes a mild swipe at Raynor?

"the love of many people here for Seth Raynor's limited palette"

Good old thread though!

But C.B. MacDonald "copied" or replicated holes and many would say more artfully. I think copy could be the wrong word for this thread as I am not for a straight-up copy of any golf hole. Now replicating the strategies into an estranged cousin of the original: ok by me!

This does not necessarily invalidate any irony you detect though.  :)


Macdonald, small d...  Of course CBM  copied. Features, not holes... But his work was done with the intent of advancing golf in the USA, and he was incredibly successful, IMO.